Part 2: Cleveland Survives, Knicks-Sixers, and Whaddya Do for Denver, Houston, and Atlanta With Zach Lowe

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[01:44] It's the Bill Simmons Podcast. [01:48] Today, Zach Lowe is here. [01:49] New rewatchables for me coming on Monday. We're doing There's Something About Mary. [01:54] which is also available on Netflix, along with a whole bunch of comedy movies that I covered in part one. [01:59] Zach Lowe has a podcast Tuesday morning, Thursday morning. [02:02] And I really hope we have better games to discuss than the two we had today. Two duds. [02:08] to Game 7 duds unless you were fans of Cleveland and Detroit. This game felt like it had potential. [02:15] this Cavs-Raptors game heading into halftime. [02:19] There were some great storylines at play, including... [02:22] LeBron? [02:24] Next year, Cleveland? Oh, boy. Okay, we're going right there. Mitchell Trades? Mobley Giannis? Like, let's go. And then Cleveland's like, hold on, hold your horses, and... [02:33] took care of business. I mean, you can revisit all the storylines next round if that doesn't go badly for the Cavaliers. It'd be interesting to see how the Cavs and the Pistons coming off just like gnarly series where they just couldn't get untracked offensively against, you know, particularly I think the Cavs against the Raptors team that just weird and big and super switchy. If both those teams get to the next round, they're like, okay, this feels a little bit [02:56] like more conventional basketball to us. We feel a little bit of like a sigh of relief, even though, you know, Detroit is a gnarly team themselves, but it's just, Toronto's just a different kind of team. They're built differently. They're a weird team to play against. Missing multiple players that they're paying lots of money to. [03:11] Um, [03:13] Thank you. [03:13] This is my first question for you.

[03:16] Is it kind of embarrassing for Cleveland that this went seven games? I don't think so. Cleveland in seven was my pick, so I'm not surprised that it went seven. Yeah, but did you know quickly and Ingram were basically going to be scratched from the series? Quickly scratched the whole series. You knew going into the series that it—I mean, I remember saying, like, it's probably bad for their offense and good for their defense. The Ingram one— [03:39] as he was not exactly lighting the world on fire in this series but there's just a certain critical massive talent you need to beat a team like cleveland four times in seven games and as critical as you want to maybe be of the way ingerman played it's just you're just asking too much of guys like jamison battle and mamu and and you know jamal shed god bless him had an unbelievable series and then the jumper deserted him in the second half of the game today it's just it's just like these guys were marginal nba players going into the season and you're asking [04:09] In game seven against a team that has four guys who have made all-star teams pretty recently. It's just a tall, it's a tall order. So is it embarrassing? AJ Lawson is furious that you didn't mention him. Well, he's furious at everybody because he looked like he wanted to start a fight from the moment he got into the game. I thought I found the whole thing delightful, but you know, he, he, who did he flag? I wrapped up Jared Allen and threw him to the floor. Got called a flag or a one. I don't think it's embarrassing. Toronto's a pain in the ass to play against. And yeah, [04:38] You know, Cleveland could have won game six easily. They could have won game four easily. They ran away with it tonight. In a way, by the way, look, I don't want to, like, damn them with faint praise. But it was nice to see Cleveland come up against a team that basically looked them in the eye and said,

[04:54] You guys have wilted under physicality in the playoffs before. We don't really have a lot of other ways to beat you, given our talent deficit, other than beating the hell out of you and seeing how you responded. And, like, Jared Allen, in particular, came for the fight today and took the fight to Toronto. And, like, good sign for the Cavs, I think. I thought Struis was incredibly important. [05:13] The two guys I had written down, Max Strews had a shout out to Heat Culture throwback game. And Jared Allen had a shout out to please stop throwing me in trade rumors. I'm happy here. I don't want to be the fall guy this summer. [05:28] kind of game. Especially in third quarter, I thought he swung it. And if you're Toronto and you're looking at a big picture and you just did that crazy extension for Pirtle that made kind of no sense when it happened. Hasn't even really kicked in yet. [05:42] And [05:43] seemed either unplayable, semi-playable, or sort of playable, depending on [05:48] where you caught him in the series, but Jared Allen was just running. [05:51] Amok. And then the other thing, Harden [05:53] It wasn't bad. We were headed toward maybe sort of an old-school throwback, terrible James Harden playoff game. And then actually he got going, and then once they had a bigger lead, then he looked very comfortable. He got going in a way that [06:09] Look, we're predisposed to be nervous about James Harden in big playoff games. He was three of nine from the floor. He controlled his turnovers. He only had two turnovers, which is big. He's had some high turnover games. But he got like, you know, Jacoby Walter stuck his arm in the cookie jar, got a three-shot foul. There was that one drive that I think it was the third foul on Scottie Barnes where they were kind of running parallel on a Harden drive into lane. And Harden kind of veered sideways into him. And Scottie Barnes also kind of veered.

[06:39] But it just seemed like Harden had reached the stage where he was saying to himself, I just got to junk my way to [redacted address] I'm going to have a productive game. And that makes me a little nervous, just a little nervous. He was active defensively for James Harden. He was. [06:56] Um, [06:58] He wasn't bad. And then Mitchell... [06:59] who finished with 22, nine for 20. He was another one that kind of came and went. That first half definitely had the makings. Oh, yeah. Makings of a collapse. The crowd was really nervous. Tariqo and Reggie were on it. They could feel it. [07:15] And they finished the half strong. Like, I think it was... [07:18] Seven points with, I don't know, 90 seconds left or something. Cleveland made a couple shots in a couple plays. By the time we got to halftime, I was like, okay, okay. [07:26] Let's take a breath. Then top of the third quarter blew him out. [07:30] So from a Cleveland standpoint, [07:34] I don't know what I learned. [07:36] they're going to be going into this Detroit series, which is an even more physical athletic version. [07:44] of what we just saw with Toronto. [07:47] with the bonus that they actually have a guy who can create good shots and good shots for other people. Toronto had this weird mix of, [07:54] Barnes is not quite ready yet as a creator. [07:57] And then RJ Barrett, who I thought, I don't know, I thought he increased whatever his trade value was heading into the last year of his deal. I actually liked his competitiveness. He had the big shot in game six. But that was really it. Cade's another animal from those two guys, I think, as a crunch time guy. At the same time, I mean, Detroit was a better defense than Toronto this year. They're two of the top five defenses in the league. I think Detroit was second. Toronto was fifth. They're just a little bit more conventional than the Raptors are,

[08:27] CMB at the five and just switch everything and muck your whole life up. And it's just going to be interesting to see if, like, the Cavs offense, even today, take away the offensive rebounds. They just didn't look very in sync. Like Harden and Mitchell don't look in sync with each other. There's just been a lot of dribble, dribble, dribble, dribble, dribble. Their assist rate is way down. They're taking way more pull-up threes in this series. I think a lot of that has to do with Toronto just sort of drags you into that style with their switchiness and the way they play. [08:57] I bet they feel a little bit looser against Detroit, which sounds paradoxical because Detroit is a nasty, physical, great defense. I just think they play a little more conventionally. But I think it should be a good series. Two teams that should be super hungry to get to the next round. All these teams should be super hungry. I mean, Embiid and the Sixers have never made it out of this round in his tenure there. The Knicks have all the pressure on them to duplicate last year's run and get better than that. So it's going to be a fun second round in the East, I think. [09:23] Cleveland out-rebatting them 60-33. [09:27] Both teams shot 28% from three. [09:30] As you mentioned, it was a rock fight that took forever. And we had multiple stoppages and... [09:36] reviews and I thought the refs were [09:39] really, really bad from a one-sided standpoint. And I had no dog in the race. I didn't really care who won, but I thought, I just felt like Toronto didn't get a call for two and a half hours other than, [09:50] um a couple on strues but well mobley was in foul trouble for a lot of the game [09:56] I didn't love the whistles, but it was a classic road team game seven.

[10:02] You're not going to. [10:03] Probably not getting those calls unless you're Philadelphia and Boston. Okay. All right. Were you watching Jalen Brown's Twitch stream during the game? Is that what you were doing when this game went to reviews? Were you watching Jalen? I think it was Twitch. I'm not on Twitch. I'm not really – I don't really know what's going on there, but I saw some clips. [10:19] on Twitter and he was not happy with the flopping and the officiating. I was told there was some director's cut Jalen stuff going on. Uh, definitely one of those start getting texts. Oh no. Oh boy. Here we go. Uh, [10:32] He even, I think, hinted that [10:35] In the last three games, there was refs in each game that were not on the level, which I don't know how well that's going to go over. Yeah, does that count? Does Twitch count for NBA monitoring purposes? Does the league office get to get – I think everything counts. Everything counts? Okay. Yeah, they're pretty – they care every time. [10:54] the refs are insulted by players or coaches. So that was going on. And then the other thing that happened was, [11:00] Inside the NBA ended it. They did the gone fishing for the Celtics. I was proud that I made the boat. [11:05] So did Matt Damon and Ben Affleck and John Krasinski. [11:09] And then at the front, reenacting the Titanic, Mike Vrabel and Diana Rossini. And they did not acknowledge it, but they were laughing. And now it's a big thing on social media. So those two events were more, those two social media events were more exciting than this game, I think. So I did see the clip on Twitter of them talking about the boat and Ernie saying, there's our friend Bill Simmons on the boat and John Krasinski. And then they were just like, and there's other people on the boat. Some other people are on there.

[11:39] I gotta say, it was really funny. Here's a word from Kia. [11:47] I would love to have been, when they created it, there had to have been a meeting. It was like, are we... [11:53] are we doing this? Is we like, we're putting them on and we're doing the Titanic pose. We're good with that. There had to be someone who was like, [12:00] guys, I don't know. And then someone else who was like, screw that. It's funny. We're doing it. And then it got greenlit. Well, nothing would be more fun than inside the NBA being in fuck it mode with ESPN over the next couple of rounds. Just feeling like, yeah, we start pushing the envelope, guys. Can you hit? Did you know about one in three people with plaque psoriasis may also develop psoriatic arthritis, which causes joint pain, stiffness and swelling? [12:23] Does this sound like you? [12:26] Listen to what it sounds like to be a million miles away. [12:56] Tell your doctor if you have an infection, flu-like symptoms, or if you need a vaccine. [13:02] Imagine being a million miles away. Explore what's possible. Ask your doctor about Trimphaya. Tap this ad to learn more about Trimphaya, including important safety information.

[13:15] Somewhere out there is a Chevy truck. And the person who drives it, well, that's a Chevy person. You probably know one. Your buddy. Your sister. Ones who always show up. They're the first to rise, the last to leave. They always have that little extra something. And maybe you've got it too. Chevrolet. Together let's drive. Visit chevy.com slash trucks to explore the lineup. [13:43] I know it. [13:45] Big, big, big picture. [13:47] You mentioned Cleveland versus Detroit, which is our round two matchup now. [13:52] Um, [13:54] These teams have played entertaining games during the regular season. [13:58] I probably have slightly higher hopes for this series than most. [14:02] because I think there's animosity on both sides. You have the Schroeder piece. [14:07] where he used to play for the Pistons. I mean, he'll be up to stuff. That's every series with Dennis Schroeder. Yeah, I know he's been on every team in the league, but I always enjoy that. [14:16] He was on Toronto too, right? Yes, he was. I just figure he's played for every team. But we have that. We have... [14:24] You know, Max Struess, no stranger. [14:27] to the physicality. We have... [14:31] The beef stew, Jalen Durran combo battling the two soft-spoken Cavs guys. [14:37] But I thought... [14:39] I remember watching one of these games, and Cleveland seemed really comfortable going against the Traits. [14:45] And I think my lean, even though I don't really like this Cleveland team that much at all, and I think they give up a lot of open shots,

[14:51] I'm just not sure Detroit's going to be the team to exploit that. [14:55] So I got to look at this more, but my lean... [14:58] would be Cleveland in six, and I don't feel good about it. I don't feel good about either of these teams coming off the series. I'm going to take a lot of tomorrow and go back and watch some of the games that they played and get a sense of who guards who and what the matchups are going to be and strengths and weaknesses and all that. I think it should be a long series. I would probably – [15:14] slightly lean Cleveland, but awesome performance by Detroit today. We already thought about that. And you bet, like, the Struis-Duncan Robinson heat culture cast-off battle is happening. Oh, I forgot about that. That's a good one. I think it would be a funny subplot if, like, mild mannered Jared Allen, like, if Beef Stew did something and he just, like, snaps. Just Jared Allen just snaps and, like, knows karate or something and just stuff we didn't know about Jared [15:44] Anything's possible with beef stew. [15:46] We have some open for a reason guys on both teams. [15:50] I assume the Cavs will probably just put Harden on Thompson. [15:56] Right. Maybe. I mean, you could you could put you could put Evan Mobley there if you want to have him as a help defender. I mean, it's one of the reasons why Suggs was guarding a star Thompson is to have your best help defender, you know, be the help guy. So they can think some people put their centers on Thompson and sort of risk it. They could put Jared Allen there and put Mobley on Stewart. There's a lot of different things they could do. Was that a Kenny Atkinson? I saved my job game tonight. [16:19] Thank you. [16:20] It would have been interesting offseason in Cleveland. I mean, you remember we did our draft of all the playoff guys, and one of them was hot seat, sneaky hot seat category coach, and I said Kenny Atkinson or Chris Finch, and Chris Finch has answered all the questions. And I said, by the way, I don't think either of them should be, but I do think this is...

[16:35] a very pressurized season for Cleveland, which is why that second quarter... [16:40] felt so fraught because you know everything that's at stake, particularly when you make a trade like Garland. [16:45] for Harden, like your messaging to your team is pretty clear. Like, hey, guys, it's kind of now. Like, let's do it. [16:52] What do you think LeBron was doing watching that game? [16:55] like deep down rooting for Toronto to open up a Cleveland possibility. Cause we still don't have a LeBron team next year. [17:02] It might be the Lakers at this point. Why wouldn't it be the Lakers? [17:08] Again, a lot of it comes down to money, right? What kind of deal is he going to be willing to take? But the LeBron that played the last two months of the season with Reeves and Luka, it worked perfectly fine. Wouldn't you think LeBron is relaxing and or... [17:19] I don't know if you've heard this, but he spends a million dollars a year on his body. So he might be he might be trying to get ready for the freaking Oklahoma City Thunder. That's what I'm going to assume was happening. You know, I think I was ground zero. He's 41, Bill. I don't like I don't know if you've looked that up recently. He's 41 years old. [17:37] LeBron James. Oldest player ever to do 130 things. I was ground zero for the LeBron spends a million dollars a year on his body story. [17:48] Really? Yeah, because I did it in 2016. I did it on a pod. [17:52] Because I spent time with somebody in his circle who was telling me that. So I talked about it. And for some reason, we got aggregated and became a story, but I'd like to, [18:01] Like to feel like I was Dr. Oppenheimer for that one. [18:04] He just kept going for the next nine years. I always like to throw Oppenheimer. I was going to say, I don't know if you want to keep comparing yourself or other people to Dr. Oppenheimer.

[18:13] Now they're making movies about him. Maybe my favorite Christopher Nolan movie, by the way. [18:17] Oppenheimer. [18:20] Really? Yeah. [18:21] Might be. [18:23] Over the Dark Knight? [18:25] Yeah. [18:27] I loved Oppenheimer. I thought it was a masterpiece. I didn't know where to go after that. By the way, you just made me think of something that I absolutely loved. [18:36] um, [18:36] No, it's just a totally random thing I was going to do later, but [18:42] So this guy, AChester99 on Twitter. Sure. [18:46] He somehow went through... [18:50] and found [18:52] the record holder for points for every point total between zero and a hundred. [18:58] you [19:00] So for instance, Greg Kite has the most zero-point games in NBA history at 295. [19:08] 295 zero point games. [19:11] This was the one that broke my brain. It might be the greatest stat I've ever heard of. [19:15] one point games. Okay. Somebody had 61 one point games. [19:23] And it's somebody that played in the last 25 years. [19:28] And you won't guess it because this is impossible. Reggie Evans had 61 one-point games. You know, I was actually going to say it would have to have been like an inferior version of Dennis Rodman. Like someone who's just like that. And that's because Rodman was too good. It was scrounged his way to six or five or eight or whatever. But they would have to be a player like that.

[19:48] Your league leader for six-point games, Michael Cage at 151. So he's on the board. Similar guy. [19:56] uh, [19:56] My guy, Robert Parrish, three different holders at 14, 16, and 18. [20:02] Our guy, Tim Duncan, 19 points games. He had the most at 88. [20:06] And then... [20:07] And then our guy, Dirk Nowitzki. [20:10] Bring this up next time you're on the Amazon show. [20:12] He is the career leader in 21-point games with 82. 82. What's the biggest number? Like, so is 253 the greatest single... [20:22] number of any kind of games. [20:25] On the list. [20:27] Harvey Ketchings at 193 and Greg cut that he had 193 two point games, Harvey Ketchings. Okay. [20:33] Great kite at $2.95 for zero. [20:38] So Carl Malone is there for 23 and 24 hours. [20:43] What's weird is Kareem wasn't on here, which I was surprised. And then it gets to 25, and LeBron has the record for 25, 26, 27, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37, and he's tied at 38. [20:58] Jordan only has 38, 39, and 40. [21:01] And then we move into like Jordan Wilt territory. What a crap. I got you. I read. I'll send this to you. I was reading it for for literally 45 minutes. I've been more riveted by anything. I mean, it's just it's a it's a high class, high intellect version of name some guys like oh, Greg Kite, Harvey Ketchings, Michael Cage. It's just like, let's name some guys. But it has math attached to it. So I like it.

[21:25] Derek Fisher has two different ones, five and seven point games. He has the records for both. But T.R. Dunn has the four point game. I really love this. I need more content like this in my life. [21:37] So, [21:39] So Cleveland barely beats... [21:41] a team that had settled in crunch time in game six. [21:45] CMB a rookie. [21:47] Jamal Shedd. [21:49] RJ Barrett, Scotty Barnes, [21:52] And Walter. [21:53] That was basically their money lineup in game six, and then they tried to keep it going again today. Probably spent... [22:00] I'm going to say 75 million combined on those five guys this year. And the girl against Cleveland that has... [22:06] Mitchell, Harden, Mobley, Allen, even Max Druse makes like 17 million a year. Noble effort for Toronto. Yeah, absolutely. What happens? Let's play. What do you do with Toronto? What do you do? [22:17] Thank you. [22:18] Oh boy. Well, I have a lot of different things I could do because I've got all my picks. My roster is too expensive. Let me bring them up their cap sheet here. [22:28] Uh, [22:29] Sadly, they're paying Ingram 40 and 41 next two years and quickly 32.5 each of the next three. Not to mention the Pertle extension we talked about before that gets ugly. I think all of those guys have now reached the territory of I have to attach something to get off of them. [22:47] Um, [22:48] If we're doing it for, uh, [22:51] Including Ingram? [22:52] I mean, all-star Brandon Ingrams? [22:55] I don't think that player option is... Maybe he's neutral and you could put him in it. He's picked it up already. He just picked it up. The player... Nobody likes... No teams like player options. I mean, the quickly deal, which I didn't mind when it happened, has not worked out. He just hasn't been healthy enough. I never liked it. You know, Barrett is extension eligible, and you know he's walking in the door being like, Hey...

[23:16] Most successful Raptors season in a little bit here, and that was a big part of it. Can we work something out? I kind of like his game. The more you watch him, he does that crafty lefty stuff. [23:26] I thought he matched the intensity athleticism of the, of some of the playoff moments. [23:32] They're just in a tricky spot because, you know, if they wanted to reach for the stars, right, they've been linked to Giannis before. What's the trade? Or like, is there a trade? Like, everyone's going to ask for Scotty Barnes. He's obviously untouchable. Is there a trade that they can even do that? [23:46] would satisfy the other team and leave them with enough stuff in the cupboard to actually win. I think the right move might just be like, look, we know this team, this team probably is a little better than we thought based on our playoff performance. They're a pretty good team. We know what they are. Let's not get too crazy here and just see, [24:02] who can rehab their trade value a little bit. Maybe there is some sort of get-out-of-jail-free card with one of these contracts. We've got all our picks. CMB is over here with Scottie Barnes. Like, that dude is awesome, and I'm not doing anything foolish with him. I want him on my team for a long time. I like Walter, too. Walter's good. I think he's a keeper. Yeah, they learned some good stuff about some of their young players in this series. Like, Walter was totally up for this, made some big shots, had a little slump in the middle of the series. He's a nine-man rotation guy. Yeah, so they have a couple. [24:31] The problem is that Pertil extension kills them for Giannis thing. [24:34] Because if that wasn't attached to the end, and when you talked about go crazy, like that was crazy when it happened. And now it seems even crazier. [24:42] But you could have had expirings... [24:45] And RJ expiring in two years left, or one year, that would have been expiring for Pirtle.

[24:50] So basically that would have been your expiring package. And they have all of their picks. They have everything. So they can do every combination of picks and swaps. [24:57] So that, if Giannis had said, send me to Toronto, they at least could have had something semi-respectable. I'm not sure. [25:04] they're going to be able to get there the way it is now. Grady Dick just not being able to play – [25:09] is a pretty big disappointment. What happened with that? You liked him for a split second, didn't you? He can do some stuff. He just hasn't made enough shots and he's not good enough defensively and he's got some... Walter just passed him and there was only room for one of them in the rotation and [25:25] Did he do enough that he can get a Grady Dick was a problem Twitter video in like 10 years? Easily. We can make it this week if you want. It could be at least three and a half minutes long. [25:35] All right, good. I just wanted to make sure he at least had that. [25:38] Only half of the video would be jersey swaps. The other half would be his actual plays. True. The big thing for them was... [25:47] Barnes had a great season. [25:49] He went up a level. I am not sure he could be the best guy on a championship game, but he can definitely be the second best guy. And he might even be able to be... [25:58] the Jalen Brown with, um, [26:00] his version of Tatum. Um, I thought, [26:04] you know, physically, physically, [26:06] athletically, [26:08] competitively, he has everything. It's really hard for him to create his own offense. He can do it. It never feels great. It's very similar to where Iguodala was in those Philly years and even that one Denver year where it's like, he can do it.

[26:22] It's probably not a great sign for your team if he's the one doing it. And he's so much better if he's kind of over here. [26:29] So they got to figure that out. And I don't know how they figure it out with the roster they have. I think the mid-ranger is coming along. I felt more confident in the series than I had before. [26:39] And I really think he is the guy that would have benefited most from – [26:44] the idea of what Emmanuel quickly was supposed to be for this team, sort of a, a, a good shooting, like half point guard, half spot up guy doesn't need the ball, but can work with it, can run pick and rolls both ways with Scotty and just sort of loosen the defense up in ways that a guy like shed can't do. And we just like, haven't seen quite enough of that combination over the last, you know, two seasons to, to really see what it could be. But Scotty left a lot of guys this year. Like, [27:11] He left a lot of guys behind him in the NBA player rankings. Like Bancaro, it's not close right now. Well, maybe it's close, but he left guys like that. He might make all NBA, and it wouldn't be illegitimate. He had a great year. Tough as shit in the playoffs. He was ready for all of it, played super hard. [27:30] I'm going to thought bubble a trade that I would love them to do. And you're probably going to jerk backwards and then be upset and maybe go deep in the thought for like five seconds.

[27:42] Brandon Ingram for Kevin Durant. [27:47] Okay, so if I'm the Rockets, why am I doing that? [27:51] I'm getting off of Kevin Durant. [27:53] Wow. [27:55] Just, just. I'm just moving on. [27:58] Just a lot of baggage. [28:01] I'm just going to get out of that one. [28:03] Money's about the same. [28:06] And... [28:07] Durant probably wouldn't be psyched about going to the team that [28:12] Their fans cheered when [28:14] when he tore his Achilles during the finals. [28:17] I don't know if he'd be super pumped about that one, but you could work with him. [28:22] Thank you. [28:23] I don't love the Ingram fit in Houston with the other pieces that they have. I'd rather try to trade Durant. [28:29] and aim a little differently. Um, [28:32] But... [28:33] How many teams are actually really going to talk themselves into this? [28:38] being the latest team that potentially could become unhappy. [28:42] Just by sheer... [28:44] coincidence that Kevin Durant showed up and then things became unhappy. Teams are talking. He's still Kevin Durant. He's going to make an all NBA team this year. Did you vote him all NBA? [28:53] I sure did. So, I mean, there you go. He will... [28:57] He's got just next year and then a player option, which is – [29:01] Interesting. I think I think. [29:05] Some good teams would kick the tires and give Houston stuff that makes more sense. [29:09] Dan Brenninger, but I will say, I don't know if you read The Athletic,

[29:13] And now they tell us a story about the Rockets yesterday. Did you catch that? [29:18] I loved it well I mean but it wasn't there was nothing in it there was particularly revelatory no I just love when they happen because I think we've all sort of made the calls and made the rounds and had the meetings of like okay so no one is really denying [29:32] that this was actually Kevin Durant on the texts and burners and like, [29:37] And they had some lines in there like sources say it was a big issue within the organization. But yeah, it was. And no one on the record, off the record, privately, publicly has come out and said, no, no, it actually wasn't Kevin Durant, which I don't know what else to conclude from that other than it seems like it was Kevin Durant. [29:57] Too bad. [29:59] We'll save the rest of it for our deep dive this summer. [30:02] I mean, do you disagree? [30:04] Thank you. [30:05] I... [30:06] Nobody has come out and denied it. [30:08] All evidence suggests that it is. It seemed to have had a before and after impact on the team. And... [30:18] It seems like it was him. [30:19] And they had also there was also lines in the story that were like the whole team came together and agreed to just like squash it, keep it in house. We're not talking about it like the whole thing in the in the athletic story, which I've also heard similar like meetings took place was just like it was what it was a huge issue. Whatever it was, it was a big issue. [30:39] taking a break for the pod, continuing to go here on Netflix.

[30:43] This episode is brought to you by Whole Foods Market. [30:46] Spring is here, so celebrate it with fresh, juicy, seasonal produce and some very tasty limited time flavors. [30:53] New Whole Foods Market Peach Apricot Rose Italian Soda. [30:57] Perfect for a picnic or brunch, as is their trending mango yuzu chantilly cake. [31:04] But if you're on the go, new 365 strawberry pretzels make a great sweet snack. That sounds delicious. Get savings with yellow sales signs storewide and everyday low prices on 365 brand items. Enjoy the fresh flavors of spring. Save at Whole Foods Market. [31:22] So good, so good, so good. [31:49] so we know all the series. [31:52] And... [31:54] Lakers, Oklahoma City. You basically can't even bet on Oklahoma City for the series. It's like you have to... [32:00] risk $3,000 to win a dollar. Um, [32:04] the [32:05] The odds for the series, though, a sweep is plus 125 on FanDuel. [32:11] An OKC 4 to 1 is plus 175, and then the odds get...

[32:15] progressively wonkier. [32:17] We just had two massive upsets last round. [32:20] with the Lakers... [32:22] upsetting the Rockets and the Sixers upsetting the Celtics, that from a Moneyline standpoint, were two of the biggest upsets we've had. [32:29] in the last 15 years. [32:31] I do not think this would be the case. Is there any sort of case you could make that doesn't involve... [32:36] Luca comes back and immediately goes nuts and, [32:40] I don't even know how they would win two games. [32:43] I mean, Luca comes back, plus Jalen Williams remains out, would have been a roadmap towards an interesting series. Yeah, absolutely. [32:52] I mean, the latest updates on Lucas, he's still a bit away. [32:58] Um, [32:59] And I just don't know that even with, even if JW who's, I mean, when's the last time they played at this point a week ago, if they had a week off now, um, [33:07] Well, I mean, their practices are probably more competitive than first round was. [33:14] you know, [33:15] I just don't see a roadmap for the Lakers without Luca to really make it a competitive series. There'll be some competitive games. They'll slow it down and play their old man basketball and like whatever. But, um, [33:26] you know, [33:27] You're still asking a lot of Marcus Martin, Rui Hachimura, and Jake Laravia, and guys that are just like the Thunder have just better guys than that. [33:35] Tough series for LeBron. Coming off a really fun series for him and... [33:40] being the best guy in a playoff series at age 41, all that stuff. And now you have the OKC pitbulls being unleashed on you. Well, it's like the father time –

[33:49] Father time is like the whole metaphor is just this series. Father time versus LeBron. Here's team father time, like a bunch of guys who are 25 and younger and awesome at basketball. You are 41 and just have at it. [34:01] Yeah, you're laughing at father time, LeBron. Enjoy it for the next two weeks. Biggest playoff series upsets... [34:09] The biggest one in the last 30 plus years was that Nuggets Sonics one. The Nuggets. [34:16] were plus 1,400. [34:18] But then we had Cavs Pacers last year. Pacers were plus 425. And then that's number two. [34:27] Well, that recently. Okay. [34:29] No, number two was We Believe, 12 to 1. Oh, sure. [34:33] Yeah. And then 2012 Bulls Sixers... [34:37] The Sixers were 9-1, but Rose got hurt at the end of game one that they were winning. [34:41] And then there's a bubble one in here and... [34:45] South Sixers 8-1. [34:47] Buxite. [34:48] from 23. [34:50] Celtics Knicks is on here from 25. The Knicks were plus 550. [34:55] for some reason. So, [34:57] Yeah, I don't think there's a lot to discuss with this one. [35:01] Does... [35:02] We talked about it briefly in part one about Edwards coming back from Minnesota. [35:07] um, [35:09] Anything intrigue you about Minnesota other than the obvious, which is that they're a bunch of badasses who are unafraid of everybody. There's some Gobert Wemby. [35:19] Edwards maybe convincing himself he's the best player in the series. Some of those Spurs young guys maybe getting a little tight. What's the roadmap here? The roadmap is just underestimate the Turnbulls at your own peril. They've proven it over and over again. Whatever happens in the regular season, cool. They go up, they go down. They play up to the competition and down to it. They're a really good playoff team. They're down one key guy, and we got to see how Io looks and how Ant looks. They were down a lot of guys by the end of that series.

[35:49] table in any matchup. They're big, they're strong, they're tough, they're going to defend. There's a lot of interesting subplots to this series, starting with Ant. The Ant-Steph Castle matchup is just going to be hellacious. Steph will get the assignment on him, presumably, for a lot of the series. [36:06] I'm going to say nobody under 12 courtside for this series, just to be safe. Somebody brought a baby to one of the Laker games. There's a four-month-old baby courtside. I just feel like that's... [36:18] You should have to really answer to [36:21] some sort of parent court for that. And I did spend some time last week watching some Spurs-Wolves- [36:27] Just matchups just to see like who guards Wemby, how do they do that? And there was just guys have been injured off and on the entire. We've barely gotten to see the real teams play against each other. But Gobert did guard Wemby for the most part when Gobert was healthy and Wemby was healthy. And Steph did guard Ant for the most part. And there's just a lot of, look, Spurs are better. Spurs have home court. They're healthier. [36:51] They'll probably win, but I think Minnesota can make it a long series, and I think they could win the series. [36:55] So Wemby shooting threes and actually making them versus what Joker did last round would be one way to... [37:02] mess with Gobert a little bit. Yeah. Always. Zombie Mike Conley. [37:07] Can it keep going? [37:09] Sure. Does zombie that bit him? How long are the effects? [37:13] I mean, he's just give me 12 minutes, 12 good minutes, Mike, 12 good minutes. [37:17] That was unbelievable. I thought he was washed up two years ago. Minnesota to win in seven is 15-1. Minnesota to win in six is 13-1. Spurs sweep.

[37:27] Two to one Spurs sweep and then Spurs... [37:30] in five plus 195, which I think would be the smart pick. So Gentleman's Sweep is the favorite. Yeah, maybe Minnesota wins three, four. [37:40] I'm going to give Minnesota at least another game. I'm going to dig in a little bit more tomorrow. I'm going to dig in a little bit more tomorrow, watch a little more, do a little more research. But my inclination is to not underestimate the Wolves. [37:52] They've certainly proven it, and they've certainly proven that – [37:56] They've taken the nobody believes in us NFL mentality. [37:59] Chris Finch. [38:01] after the win, was not shy about saying, "Hey, [38:05] They wanted us. [38:07] did that whole thing. I loved it. I loved it. I mean, those two teams legitimately hate each other and it's awesome. Um, [38:13] I just want one... [38:16] It needs to happen once. [38:17] or Ant's got a bit of a runway, [38:20] And Wemby's the last line of defense. And Ann says... [38:23] I'm going for it. And I don't know what will happen. There could be... [38:28] Just the rim could break, the backboard could break, fans could be injured. I don't know, but I want to see it. [38:34] It's Superman 2. Superman's flying into one of those guys in the air, and there's... Yeah, a puff of smoke. [38:43] Do you want to guess what the Fandu line is for Pistons Cavs for the series? [38:47] Because it's out. [38:48] Who do you think is favored? I think it's [38:51] I think the Cavs are favored by a very small amount. [38:56] The Pistons are favored by a very small amount.

[38:59] Buy a few small beers. Minus 122. A few small beers. [39:03] Cavs in seven is six to one. [39:07] Pistons in seven is four to one. [39:11] Cavs and sixes plus 340. [39:14] I would probably go exact games over the... [39:18] This series, Betty and This. [39:20] Really tough one. [39:21] Honestly, this is probably a stay away as a serious bet. We can't stay away tomorrow. No, I know. I think we're both leaning slightly toward the Cavs, but I certainly would have bet my life on either one of these. I'm going to do more of my homework tomorrow. I didn't do my homework yet because I wasn't going to do double the homework in the series. Cavs-Raptors just took forever. Pistons-Magic took forever. So I got to do all my homework tomorrow. [39:44] And then Philly Knicks... [39:46] Knicks minus 260 over Philly. [39:49] Philly's plus 215 as underdogs. [39:53] And then... [39:54] If you want Nixon 7, [39:57] which would be great. That's plus 380. [40:00] Sixers and seven is eight to one and Sixers and sixes plus five fifty. [40:05] And if you wanted to go nuts, you could bet the Sixers sweep at 25 to 1. [40:09] That's a ball. Plus 550. Yeah. Um, [40:13] That's going to be the best of the four series. [40:16] Unless we get Ant really looking like Ant again. [40:20] But I think all the storylines with this Nick Sixers series... [40:24] Real animosity with the Knicks and the fans toward Embiid for multiple incidents from previous years. The Maxey versus Brunson match.

[40:35] kind of each side not being able to stop the other. And they're probably not even going to guard each other. [40:40] Um, [40:41] The Townsend Bede. [40:42] which that rekindled this weekend. I had forgotten about the tweets from 2019. What else? And then OG and it'll be being the best part in the world. There's a lot of different storylines we have gone. What else do you like? I had forgotten about the cat and bead stuff from all those years ago. So that's very exciting. And I'm glad that everyone has done their job and dredging it back up for added, added animosity. Mitchell Robinson and bead stuff is well known. Um, [41:08] I think it's a big McHale Bridges series. Like, you know, [41:12] Good finish to the Hawks series in the last game. Found his equilibrium a little bit on offense. I would guess he'll get the maxi assignment from the jump. He's been their primary guy. It's a really tough assignment for the Knicks. They don't have a great option. I mean, not that many people do, but Ananobi's tried it. Hart's tried it. They tend to trend bigger defensively and not smaller and quicker. And Bridges, it's like... [41:38] Everyone's going to laugh at that trade forever. As Brian Windhorst, our friend, always says, if you win a championship, every trade's good. Every trade's an A+. Every trade's fine. And so here's a series that's kind of tailor-made for you. [41:49] to you don't have to score 22 points. You don't have to run as many pick and rolls as you did in Brooklyn. That guy, fine. Be Phoenix. Be Phoenix. Mikael Bridges. [41:57] And play the best defense you've played as a Knick and get us 14 points a game. And we're all going to be happy. [42:03] My guess is they use bridges to do the 94 feet thing on Maxi.

[42:08] And then bring some Josh Hart in for that. And then Alvarado for five minutes a half. [42:13] And just putting bodies on him. [42:16] the entire court at all times. It's not always going to work. He's going to be faster than everybody. He's going to get to the basket. But I think that's what you're going to have to do. You have to approach it as... [42:25] We got to cut the head off on this one on this team. [42:28] He's the head. We got to cut it off. Alvarado and Embiid are going to have a moment at some point in the season where Alvarado is just going to be like annoying him. Or like Embiid is going to be like, what is this thing down here that's annoying me? I don't like it. And Jose Alvarado is going to get all offended by it. That's going to happen. [42:42] The Embiid flopping at MSG is going to be a point of viewing. They've already conditioned to really hate it. I know the Celtics fans were not big fans. [42:54] And then you have the Towns piece of it, too. [42:57] where you could see a couple double flops, [43:02] You could see Towns were coiling in horror as Embiid is flopping the other way, and it's like a flop-off. Almost like an eight-mile when we had the rap battles. Every team's got a flopper. [43:11] Okay, there's floppers everywhere. Jalen Brunson has not been averse to the occasional head snap flop either. He's another one. You're right. He coming around a screen could go fly. That could be another flop off. Yeah. I mean, the crowd reactions will be awesome, and every player will act as if they definitely didn't flop. And I just want people to start using the flop sign more often because I think it's really fun. Let's bust it out. I love Dembead. [43:37] talking shit to the fans in Boston during the game, telling them to be quiet.

[43:41] It was like a kind of, it was a new level of bravado for him because it was like, could have gone badly. If you blow the game, that ends up looking badly and he was fine with it. And I like him. I gotta say, he's always done it though. Like even in 2018, he was, he was doing it. We were like, dude, you just got in the league. What are you doing? And I like, he loves it. It gets him going. And I love that he told Philly fans, don't sell your tickets, get all the tickets. We can't have these Knicks fans coming down on Amtrak overpaying for our tickets. We don't want it to sound like Madison Square Garden. [44:11] We've been waiting, waiting for this team. So let's do it. [44:15] Who is this a more painful... [44:18] series loss for I would say the Knicks like for the fan bases. [44:21] This is like, if I'm the Knicks right now, if I'm a Knicks fan, [44:25] The seas have parted over the last week. [44:28] Detroit looks incredibly vulnerable. So does Cleveland. The Celtics are out. You had this whole Tatum revenge thing lurking. That's gone. You have this Philly team that you've already had a lot of success with. [44:39] And there's just a clear roadmap now. Like this is the year. [44:43] Right. [44:44] This is the best chance I think they're ever going to have in the East to win this year, right now, next four weeks. [44:51] It's amazing how it's turned from Hawks series is not going well. We got to fire the coach. We like where's the honest trade this summer? What's the move to now? Like, oh, the East is broken right for us. The more painful series loss is definitely the Knicks. As painful as it would be for Philly and their fans to get a taste of this and then have the rug pulled out in the same round where the rug is always pulled out for them. I think.

[45:15] to get those three games against that team, the Celtics, and to vanquish them the way they did, and to just get a glimpse of what this team could be, [45:25] If they continue to play well and lose to the Knicks, I still think it feels like a fun season with some hope for next season for the Sixers. Yeah, we got to see Embiid play meaningful basketball again. [45:36] Maxie became a guy. [45:38] We clearly have something pretty special in Edgecombe. We'll see how far it goes. And we resuscitated Paul George. [45:44] And we eliminated... [45:47] the number two seed Boston Celtics are ancient, ancient rival for the first time in a long, long time. First time for 82 in pretty heartbreaking fashion for them. Like you got to take some joy out of that. If you're Philly. [45:59] Phillies plus 650 to win the conference. [46:02] The Knicks are plus 145. What's interesting about that is... [46:07] I kind of think whoever wins this series goes to the finals because I think – [46:12] If the Sixers win the series, that will mean that [46:15] what we just saw for two and a half games... [46:18] was actually real, for real. [46:21] And then they ran through the Knicks. From a talent standpoint, they're top four if everybody's healthy. And Paul George is playing like that. And Embiid is fine. You'd probably put that against any other top four. I still think the Knicks are going to win. I would pick the Knicks. [46:37] But, [46:37] Listen, man. [46:40] The Sixers, they're going to play like they played the last two and a half games. It's a hard team to play. [46:45] No question. I will also pick the Knicks. I would lean Knicks in seven right now. I'm going to do more work on it tomorrow.

[46:51] Um, [46:52] But I think Cleveland to Detroit should feel exactly the same way. They should have the same attitude of like, oh, this is open for us. I know that they haven't, you know, an eighth seed took Detroit to distance. An undermanned Raptors team took Cleveland to distance. But every matchup is different. Every matchup is going to feel different. And whoever wins that series should not be afraid of. [47:13] The Sixers, can they stay healthy this whole time? The Knicks, I mean, Detroit played the Knicks to the hilt last year in the first round. I think both those teams should feel that way, too. [47:23] I don't know. I, I've, [47:27] Detroit, [47:29] Going to the death store, basically, that Orlando series and having to take every single ounce of everything just to win in seven. [47:39] I don't think it was an awesome sign for them. [47:41] And then Cleveland against Toronto, losing two guys. Yeah. [47:45] Even just not finishing Toronto in six, not a great sign for them. Hi, Diva. It's Rachel. And Jordan. Yeah, hi. Quick question. Why are you not spending your Venmo balance? Yeah, we're concerned. You can, like, buy stuff with it. Ugh, you love buying stuff. And earn cash back on eligible purchases. Mm, you love purchasing eligible things. So, the money your friend sent you yesterday, that's today's ramen, or rideshare, or eye patches. The skincare kind, not the pyro kind. Spend with Venmo, and you can earn cash back with Venmo Stache. Venmo Stache bundle terms and exclusions apply. [48:15] See terms at Venmo.me slash slash terms. ID verification required to use a Venmo balance. [48:20] This episode is brought to you by Fox One. Watch all 104 matches of the FIFA World Cup live in 4K for just $19.99 a month with three days free. Build your own multi-view, choose up to three streams, and follow player spotlights. Stay on top of every moment with live stats, highlights, and instant replays. The FIFA World Cup, streaming live on Fox One, offers a subject to change. See fox.com for complete terms and conditions. Fox One.

[48:48] you [48:48] I'm either. [48:49] Um, [48:51] I got to do a couple more Woody's quick. Okay. What do you do if you're at Atlanta? [48:56] And you have Jalen Johnson at 120 for four. [49:00] Daniel's at 100 for four. Okongwa at 16 and 17. [49:04] Alexander Walker at 14 and 15. You're stuck with Kispert at 13 and 13. You got Risha Shea at 13 next year. [49:10] Kaminga is a free agent. CJ is a free agent. [49:13] And you have that New Orleans first rounder that might be in the top four. You'll be at the lottery a week from now. [49:18] Um, [49:20] You could create up to 29 million in cap space and get creative. [49:24] So you could do something like we discussed in part one where you could trade Daniels in the pick and try to get. [49:30] a franchise guy or an all-NBA guy or an all-star. [49:34] whether it's Jalen, Giannis, whoever, [49:36] Or you could just say, I like what we have. Let's re-sign McCollum. [49:40] Let's try to lowball Kaminga and maybe bring him back for one more year to see what we have. And let's try to nail this pick. [49:47] and look at the late 2020s for when we make a run. What would you do? Yeah, the first thing I got to do is see what happens in the lottery. [49:54] and who I can get [49:56] and where I'm picking. My inclination is... [50:00] Almost regardless of that. [50:04] Given the state of the East in general, like, I mean, we'll see what the Pacers are just sort of sitting over here as the forgotten man in the East that's going to come back, you know, hopefully full health. Not if they get a top four pick, they will not be forgotten. Well, that's true, too. They'll be adding Halliburton, Zubats, and one of the four picks in a generational draft. Or trading it for who God knows what, but probably knowing Indiana and the way they generally operate, just making the pick and saying, we're thrilled to do this. My inclination, if I were the Hawks, would be...

[50:33] Let me let this marinate a little bit before I do anything else. [50:37] too aggressive depending on where I pick. And I like a Kongu. I like Alexander Walker. [50:43] I think Daniels is an interesting player. I'm obviously not trading Jalen Johnson. Reese's Shays is the one we just got to figure out. How do we revive this? And if not, what do we do? But let's, let's see where the lottery balls fall first. I don't, [50:55] I mean, what's the aggressive move for them? What's the other, what's the big move? I mean, I would poke around on things like... [51:04] Just, you know, it's not just Giannis or Stan Pat, right? Like, there's a bunch of middle ground stuff. Like, are there, I'd have to go through the rosters. Are there guys we could pick off, you know, that are a little bit better than one of the guys we have now? Is there, like, Durant? Like, is that interesting to us at all? We mentioned Jalen Brown before. That's a little high priced. But just are there smaller moves I can do around the fringes? Because I don't, you know, and McCollum, I think, would like to go back there. And there's got to be a number that works. He was so good for them. [51:35] Yeah, I would say they're probably... [51:37] Need some size. [51:39] and a point guard who could learn under the tutelage of returning free agent C.J. McCollum. [51:45] And there's a ton of point guards in this draft, and they're going to end up with somebody good. So we agree. Wouldn't do much there. Portland's a little more interesting. [51:53] Denny is at $13 million next season and $12 million the year after that, which is just [51:58] Probably the best contract in the entire league. [52:01] I would even have that over the Pritchard is make it like $7 million a year.

[52:04] They have Holiday at 34 and 37. They have Green at 34 and 36. They have [52:09] Sharp, 90 for four, and Kamara, 81 for four. [52:14] And they have Dame 13 and 14. And they have Scoot and Kling and still on rookie deals. So they don't. [52:19] They're going to be a tax team next year. [52:21] And maybe even like bumping toward the second. [52:24] tax that they spend. They have all their picks from 27 to 30. They have a Milwaukee first swap. [52:30] they get the best one out of Boston or Milwaukee in 29 and another Milwaukee swap in 30. So they have stuff to trade. And they have an owner who is already getting stories written about him every day for how cheap he is. So I don't know what to make of this. And he doesn't like it. At first I heard he doesn't care. Who likes it? Who likes being called cheap? But the first wave of news was he doesn't care. He reads it all and he doesn't care. And then he's being defended by the GM, Joe Cronin. It's just not accurate what he's portrayed. [53:00] Look, the stories have not been refuted. The guys were in the freaking lobby because they couldn't get late checkouts. That's the thing that happened. [53:08] He does care. He paid for subs the other day for everybody. Everybody got a roast beef sub. I don't like roast beef. [53:17] Thank you. [53:18] I'll take a turkey. Turkey over roast beef. Yeah, turkey. Roast beef and turkey. And he even had a couple tunas. Yeah, I don't... [53:26] There's this Giannis noise... [53:28] that's out there. I started the noise a month ago and then, then found out that Giannis didn't want to go to the West coast. I don't. Giannis wants to go to the East coast. I don't really know. I don't know. I don't know. I'm struggling to wrap my brain around that one. Yeah. I don't like, they're a weird team because does anyone want Jeremy Grant's contract? Um, even, even drew holiday was spectacular when he was healthy this year. The player option in 27, 28 is pretty pricey. Um, um,

[53:54] I got to figure out Scoot. Scoot's extension eligible. [53:58] It's it feels I mean, every team like Portland is just facing the same dilemma is like, yeah, we're pretty good. [54:03] we were a young rising team with a lot of assets and, [54:08] And we don't have anyone on our team nearly as good as anyone that Oklahoma City and San Antonio has at the top of their roster. How are we going to ever compete with those two teams? And how do we get there? And I don't know. [54:19] I don't know what the answer is for Portland. [54:22] Other than I do like that they're building around this defense, defense, defense identity. And like, we're at least going to make things hard for everybody we play. [54:30] I like where they are. I don't really understand the Dame contract at all, why they did it, why they paid him for a year not to play. [54:37] That was weird. [54:39] Um, [54:40] But for the most part, I'm fine with the Drew contract. It's two years. Yeah, he's good. Next year. [54:45] And then the final year is then expiring. That's fine. Grant's a little tougher. So, [54:50] We don't think this is like a... [54:53] Let's go nuts and get somebody awesome team. This could be another Durant destination, by the way. [54:58] I mean, I think that Durant price point might not be that high if he does get traded. And I don't know that he is going to get traded. Like, does Houston have to trade him? [55:06] Well, let's stay where next on my what do you do. [55:09] KD at 44 and 46. [55:12] Shengun at 35, 37, 39, and Jabara's at 23, 22, 24. [55:17] They have FVV for 25 next year. [55:20] Finney Smith, 39 for the next three. Adams for two more in double figures. Adams and Capel are basically 20 and 18 the next two years. Then they have

[55:29] a Thompson extension, [55:31] And they have Reed Shepard. But the thing with them, they have some really nice picks. [55:36] They're going to have... [55:37] That swap with Brooklyn. [55:40] Next year, they're going to have the Phoenix first. They have their own first, and they have a Phoenix-Dallas swap in 29. The Brooklyn one... [55:48] I think we have to start really thinking about Brooklyn as a team that might do some dramatic stuff this summer. [55:54] Because anytime we've seen... [55:56] a team with cap space in the position of this pick could come back to haunt us, they usually get a little more aggressive. [56:03] heading into that season, right? Which made me wonder, could they be a destination for... [56:08] pick somebody who had had an ugly playoff exit i think absolutely they could i mean they've been rumored in the honest like on the fringes of the honest thing and everyone has been like well what i mean including me have said why would he honest go there who is he playing with and i don't know the answer to that question other than i the nets probably think if we get you honest we can get somebody else we have infinite flexibility tons of picks uh you know when sean marks first got there and they were just in the in so deep in the hole of picks owed to boston and [56:38] because they didn't control their pick and we have to save face a little bit. They did the opposite and just ate it as a sunk cost. And I wonder if they have the appetite to do that again. I suspect that you will be right and they'll try to be a little bit more aggressive than that. Because that pick, it's a big asset and they've got the Phoenix stuff coming as well. Yeah, the Rockets, you know. [56:58] There's an argument to be made that they should just sit tight and see what Van Vliet looks like, see what the team looks like with Van Vliet, Durant, Stephen Adams, keep the picks, base players,

[57:07] what it is and just take another shot at it next year. [57:10] Thank you. [57:11] Or you can even go further and... [57:14] Maybe you go, you know what, we are contenders, and we're not going to really have a chance here with San Antonio and Oklahoma City and even Minnesota. [57:21] Maybe we should zag the other way. We have these picks coming. We got a bunch of young players. [57:26] reduce the expectations. [57:28] Hey, does anybody want Van Vliet on expiring? Does anybody want... [57:32] This pretty decent Adams contract, even though he gets hurt every year. Is anyone interested in Durant? You just zag. [57:38] I think that's a, I mean, the three paths they have to me are stamp at, [57:42] Trade Durant and or Van Vliet in a in a in deals that sort of just reset your timeline a little bit about around the young guys or find the home run superstar. We're all in now. We trade Shen Goon plus picks plus whatever for Giannis or whoever else becomes available. And I think that whoever else becomes available thing is a big wild card in that because other people, depending on what happens in the playoffs, are. [58:05] will become... I mean, we've already seen, we talked about it in part one, Denver... [58:10] Basically letting the world know everybody, but Jokic, like our phones are open. So that means Jamal Murray, who else would be, I mean, not, I don't think Denver wants to trade Jamal Murray, but the fact that his name is omitted from the do not ask list, according to Shams, um, [58:24] is interesting. But to be clear, Shams didn't say Jamal Murray's name. He just said anybody but Jokic, which obviously... [58:31] Includes Jamal Murray. So there'll be other guys like that, depending on how the playoffs go. [58:36] Yeah, there's...

[58:38] You could get like a Durant... [58:40] VanVleet's expiring. [58:42] and some draft stuff. [58:45] For Murray. [58:47] on paper makes sense. I don't know why either team would want to trade with each other. [58:51] West. And if I'm [58:54] If I'm trading Murray, I probably want two pieces back. [58:57] I can't remember if I said this in part one, but I was meaning to say this to you. If I'm Denver, I'm doing nothing. [59:03] You didn't say that. [59:05] Oh, I didn't? No. All right. I'll say it more emphatically. I'm doing nothing. [59:10] I just had bad luck in a playoff series. I had a weird year. [59:13] I had Joker playing the best basketball of his entire career, getting hurt. [59:17] And then Gordon getting hurt twice. [59:20] And this Minnesota thing just was one of those weird things that happens in the playoffs every once in a while. [59:26] Only one team can win the title. [59:29] A lot of teams panic after they don't win the title. I just wouldn't panic with what I have. I'd want to be a little more careful. I'd really want to re-sign Peyton Watson. [59:38] And even if I have to trade Cam Johnson to make that happen, I don't know why they can't just re-sign Peyton Watson and actually spend some fucking money. The Crockies are wealthier than just about anybody. Just spend the fucking money. You have Jokic on your team. [59:50] But I'm bringing back Watson. I'm bringing back all my guys. I got Cam Johnson as an expiring. [59:57] And I have a little flexibility and let's play it out and see where we are in January. That's gotta be the move. I wouldn't panic. Well, that was good. My counter was going to be number one. I don't, I just, we talked about this already. I just think you have to assume Aaron Gordon is going to be hit or miss availability wise for the rest of his career. 13th year of his career. This is who he is now. And so I don't,

[1:00:17] I've got to build my team with that in mind. And counter number two is Peyton Watson. I think they have to bring him back and... [1:00:23] That's going to cost you. It's going to cost you money, which we agree it would be great if they just paid and they've ducked the apron and stuff before. I don't think that's likely. And so they're going to have to pay something to get off of Christian Brown or Cam Johnson. And they already owe some significant draft assets out the door to Oklahoma City of all teams in two separate drafts. So it'll be another reason why they're going to be trying to stay really good. Christian Brown, I don't really understand. [1:00:50] I thought the extension was too pricey, but it was also in the range of all these other guys that [1:00:56] He was at least in the ballpark of that we're getting between low 20s and 25, 26s. [1:01:02] I don't understand... [1:01:04] why he was so bad. [1:01:07] Like, how did he just lose the ability to play offense? And also, why did he stop being a shutdown guy on defense? [1:01:14] I don't know that he was ever a shutdown guy on defense. Well, he was their shutdown guy, though. You know what I mean? He was the guy they would put on the other team's best – [1:01:22] perimeter guy and [1:01:23] It wasn't glaringly bad like it was this year. [1:01:26] He couldn't guard anybody in that series. I think he's just [1:01:30] Because of the way their team is built and how Gordon has aged and been injured, I think he's just tasked with a role that he's, [1:01:37] not quite up to. He's a good defensive player, not a great one. And it all comes down 30% on threes. Like, 30% on threes, and he missed half the season. Like, that's... And I do think the Watson thing, although he shot it really well from three this year, especially from the corners, the two of them playing together, how viable is that going to be? Because that's your best defensive lineup, is the two of them plus Gordon. They barely played those three together all season. But to me, Watson...

[1:02:03] Thank you. [1:02:04] If if there's a if there's a number that makes sense for all parties, and I don't know if Peyton Watson is like actually itching to go to a place where he would have a bigger role like, you know, the Lakers are going to be rumored until the end of time. But I want I want that guy back on my team. [1:02:20] And they still are in the driver's seat with it. [1:02:22] They can match any offer and... [1:02:25] I don't remember the last time somebody just stole a restricted free agent with some crazy offer. [1:02:31] You have to go back to like the Jeremy Lin, Omer Asich era. [1:02:36] for the creativity. I just... [1:02:40] I, [1:02:41] Peyton Watson and Gordon together. [1:02:44] As injuries. [1:02:47] Not as impactful from a talent standpoint as Edwards and Dasumu. [1:02:53] and deep. You could just stop at Edwards, but yeah, include the other guys too. Obviously not as [1:02:59] But what was interesting about the series was [1:03:01] Denver couldn't replace what Gordon gave them at all. [1:03:05] Minnesota was somehow able to patch together [1:03:08] They lost the three-point shooting completely by losing all those guys. But they were somehow able to patch together the defense and the rim attack and... [1:03:16] With all the backups for those guys, Denver couldn't replace anything Gordon did. And that was what sunk them. [1:03:23] So to your point, like... [1:03:26] Yeah, you can't count on them anymore, but I also don't know who else they could bring in that could do 75% of what he does. [1:03:32] You just have to hope that Watson, although a much different player stylistically on both ends of the floor, just gives you enough pop and enough size to mimic it. And that Gordon still has enough in the tank for a big playoff run here and there. But yeah, the Minnesota thing, man, you can't give them enough credit. They got the big IO game. Nas Reed was really good. Conley. Conley was good. Shannon massive in the in the elimination game. They just, you know, got contributions from everyone. There was almost there was a Jalen Clark, Jokic near fight in that game, which is, you know, it is interesting that.

[1:04:02] Thank you. [1:04:03] The hockey mentality, start a fight with the other team's best player. Hope he fights back. It's part that, but it is... [1:04:10] Every time it's going bad for Denver, there seems to be a Jokic event. [1:04:14] In which he's a participant in, sometimes not the initiator, but sometimes, yes, the initiator. But I don't really know what to make of that. [1:04:23] What did you think of the 48-hour celebration that Jokic got bounced in round one? [1:04:30] Was there, was that, who was celebrating? [1:04:33] A lot of people. [1:04:34] A lot of people were psyched that... [1:04:37] All of the Yokoch stuff just had a giant fork slammed into it. I thought it was interesting. [1:04:43] I mean... [1:04:44] He had a bad series. Gobert ate his lunch for a lot of the series. His jumper wasn't there. His defense wasn't good enough. It was a bad series for him. It was his first real postseason clunker against a team that has their number at this point. [1:04:58] The three-point shooting was bad. I went back and I looked at his... [1:05:03] I went back and I looked at his... [1:05:06] his. [1:05:07] Just his stats in 23 when they won, when they went 16 and four. [1:05:13] and basically rolled through everybody. [1:05:16] His stats were unbelievable that year. [1:05:19] That was like when he was like, [1:05:21] 31, 14, and 10, and he shot like 47% from three and... [1:05:27] you know, it's, [1:05:28] You look at that and you're like, [1:05:30] Oh, his stats are still pretty good this year, but compared to where he was, they weren't. So the question for me is at age 31,

[1:05:39] Has he moved into a slightly different echelon of himself as a playoff guy? [1:05:44] If the three-point shooting is just not going to be reliable anymore. I'm not going there. I think he still has plenty of time left in his prime. And the three-pointer... I mean, that's how I feel, but it's a question now. The three-pointer is a fickle animal, right? And so let's say they sneak out that round. Maybe he has a hot round the next round. I don't worry too much about that. It was... [1:06:04] eye-opening that he didn't have the same level of answers for Gobert that he's had previously in any, in any, like in the post on the pick and roll and anything. He just didn't have rhythm. [1:06:14] to his game against Gobert and that we had just not seen him run into a matchup like that before. When teams don't think he could make the three pointer, [1:06:23] I think it changes how they play him, what they want him to do. And I just think Minnesota was super comfortable with it. One thing did happen from that series... [1:06:31] Forgot to tell you. [1:06:34] Um, [1:06:34] I had to drop. [1:06:36] Joker in my pyramid. [1:06:39] Wow. Spots. Two spots. Okay. [1:06:41] Yeah. [1:06:42] What does that mean? Where is he? [1:06:44] So there's this center right at the end of level [1:06:48] the top level, the Pantheon. [1:06:50] There's four centers clustered together, and I've been moving them around. I'm the only one who sees the list. That's not like I'm announcing it, but... [1:06:57] It's Hakeem and Shaq and [1:06:59] joker and moses i think he's right there with moses and i think you could i have him i have joker 14 moses 15 [1:07:07] You could talk me into flipping it, but I think Hakeem and Shaq,

[1:07:11] have to be above him at this point. [1:07:14] Unless he can rally back with some sort of other playoff thing like... [1:07:20] Only one finals appearance, one title. Even Moses got to two finals. It's hard. [1:07:26] You're too tight back-to-back for Akeem. When you're in the top 15, you start to be measured by different, crazy, highest possible level things. [1:07:35] Hakeem in 95... [1:07:38] wins the back-to-back title and just beats every team he beats is awesome. Every center he goes against is awesome. He just destroys everybody. [1:07:46] And Joker probably needs one of those, I think. [1:07:49] to move up. Well, there's a lot of time left, but I'll tell you... We're all winners, though. I'll tell you, those top two teams in the West... [1:07:57] are just... [1:07:59] Like there's always... [1:08:01] injuries and things go sideways and things are windows are never open as long as you think they're going to be open and finances and all that but it's hard to see a world where the thunder and the spurs are not pretty continuously awesome for let's just say five years like we don't have to go too crazy we don't have to say 10 years 15 years whatever but like [1:08:19] barring a catastrophic injury, which could happen. We don't want it to, but it just seems unlikely that they are going to be [1:08:27] anything but like 58 plus win teams for... [1:08:31] the next five years. [1:08:32] Well, that's why for the Nuggets, the question is, [1:08:35] I'm just studying that 22 Warriors title run.

[1:08:41] Okay, that was the team. It seemed like their window closed, and then it didn't, and they had this transcendent player. A lot of weird shit happened in the league that year. There were a couple injuries. There was a couple upsets, and all of a sudden, they just swooped in and took it. [1:08:54] Could we keep this nucleus together and hang around? [1:08:59] and hope for a similar situation, the answer would be yes. So that's why I don't think you can panic. I think you got to keep it together. Before we go, you want to tell us about your [1:09:09] cameo on an Apple TV show? Sure. I was on... [1:09:14] Your Friends and Neighbors, season two, episode five. A show I watch. I'll talk about a little more this week, but it was delightful. So it's up now. People can watch you in a scene. People can watch me and OG and an OB together in a scene at a party. It's a house party scene. People who watch the show know one of the characters is a retired NBA star. Yeah. And so he's hosting a party, and they decided to populate it with random NBA people. [1:09:44] One of the producers shout out. Jamie, um, is just a long time fan listener and was like, let's write Zach Lowe a role and get him in here. And, uh, [1:09:51] I spent a day in a mansion in Long Island. [1:09:54] last year. Couldn't you have been somebody who got murdered at the beginning of the episode? You could have been a dead body lying in your own blood? There was... We had a little viewing party at our house on Friday, and I don't know if you saw the episode. I haven't seen it yet. Even by...

[1:10:12] Even by the standards of the show, there's a lot of racy material in this one. And they're like, you couldn't have been like the random Amanda Peet love interest for one. I was like, no, I could not. That was not going to be my role on this one. Not negotiate that one with the wife. All right. Well, congrats. It was fun. The whole cast was awesome. They were so fun. It was super fun. They made it easy. Because, you know, when you're a fish out of water like that, it's just... [1:10:36] It's a little like, do I belong here? Is anyone like, what do I do? And they were all super nice. [1:10:43] Well, congratulations. Now I can introduce you as your friends and neighbors co-star, Zach Lowe. Yeah, I'm an actor now. I'm an actor acting. You sign up for SAG. [1:10:53] I guess I could. You get fees? All that shit. All right. Zach Lowe. [1:10:58] Thanks for hanging out for the double pod. We're probably not always going to do this, but with two game sevens that we thought would be pretty good. Neither of them were. [1:11:05] It's fine. This round two should be fun. I'm looking forward to Nick Sixers. Thanks to Gahal and Eduardo as well. Thanks to everybody behind the scenes at The Ringer. Thanks to Netflix. There's something about Mary coming tomorrow on the rewatchables and then Zach's back on Tuesday on his podcast breaking down a whole bunch of stuff. [1:11:21] Good to see you, buddy. Always fun.

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[1:13:02] Thank you.