SERIAL KILLER: Rodney Alcala

[00:00] This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. For some of us, summer means more juggling, which can lead to overwhelm and worry. BetterHelp makes it easy to get the support you need. Having served over 6 million people globally, BetterHelp is the world's largest online therapy platform. They'll match you with a quality licensed therapist, so you can focus on your therapy goals. You don't have to say yes to everything this summer. Find support in therapy. Sign up and get 10% off at betterhelp.com slash crimejunkie. That's betterhelp.com slash crimejunkie. [00:29] Hi, Crime Junkies. It's Britt, and I have big news. One of my favorite seasonal shows, CounterClock, is back with a brand new season, and it is wild. Host Delia D'Ambra is digging into the 2008 Lane Bryant murders. I mean, this isn't just a recap. It is a reinvestigation. She's talking to law enforcement, people from the community, even sources who have never spoken publicly until now. And you know I love a show that asks all the questions. Listen to CounterClock [00:59] Hi, Crime Junkies. I'm your host, Ashley Flowers. And I'm Britt. This week's story is about a serial murderer who's all the more terrifying because of just how easy it was for him to escape justice for so long. It spans years, distance, and even... [01:17] game shows, because you're about to find out a slick surface can hide depths too horrifying to even fathom. This is the story of Rodney Alcala, the dating game killer. [01:30] Music

[02:02] On September 25th, 1968, eight-year-old Tali Shapiro is living with her parents in Los Angeles. Now she's walking to school when a man in a beige car pulls over to the sidewalks next to her. And he asks her if she wants a ride to school. But Tali is no dummy. She remembers what her mom and dad have been telling her since she was very little. Don't talk to strangers. So that's what she tells the man. Oh, that's okay, he says. I know your parents. [02:31] all right. And I have this beautiful picture I want to show you if you get in the car. And something about this man's offer piques Tally's curiosity. And this man, he just seems so believable. I mean, he spoke to her parents. He must know her parents. He must not be a stranger at all. So she gets into the car and the man drives off. [02:52] What Tally and the strange man don't know is that another driver was watching this interaction and saw everything that just happened. And this person knew in their gut it was wrong. So this driver starts following them. He follows the two in the light-colored sedan through Los Angeles all the way to an apartment building. When he sees where the strange man is taking the little girl, he immediately leaves and calls 911 to report the strange incident. [03:22] Initially, like learning about this story, I got just this knot in my gut at this point because I imagined all the ways that this could go wrong. Like an operator who didn't think this was serious, a responding officer who would just assume like it was this girl's dad. But luckily, something about this stranger's story resonated with everyone in law enforcement and they dispatched someone to the apartment right away.

[03:45] The first detective on the scene is a man named Chris. And he has one thing in mind. He has to find that little girl. He wants to put eyes on her. So according to LA Weekly, he gets to the apartment and knocks on the door, announcing that he's with the LAPD and this door needs to be opened right now. A short moment later, a man opens the door and just sort of like pokes his head out and says, oh my gosh, I'm so sorry. You know, I was just in the shower. Give me a minute so I can get dressed. [04:15] nation but there was just something about this man's face that makes chris shudder call it instinct call it a gut feeling whatever but even talking to 48 hours all these years later he says he knew right off the bat this man is bad news but he's willing to give a small concession he says okay fine you have 10 seconds then this door better be opened because i want to talk to you [04:40] Five seconds go by. [04:42] 6. [04:43] 7, 8, 9, 10. Chris kicks open the door and stumbles into a horror scene. There, in the kitchen, lying in a pool of blood with her little white shoes off to the side, is the little girl that the 911 caller described, Tali Shapiro. It's clear to Chris that she had been beaten with a weapon, this heavy metal bar that is still laying across her throat.

[05:13] tension is immediately placed on this little girl and they rush to her side but the closer they get they begin to realize that they may have been just minutes too late to save her it's clear to chris and the officers on the scene that she'd been raped and now it's clear that she's not breathing [05:30] One of the LAPD officers quickly makes his way through the apartment looking for the man who did this. Like, if Tally can't be saved, they have to find this man and hold him responsible. But just then, they hear something none of them ever expected to hear. It was a wet choking noise coming from Tally. Somehow, she is still alive. And they all run back to the little girl's side to get her stable and to call for an ambulance. [06:00] is over the moon that they have a chance to save this little girl. They weren't too late. But once they know that she's okay, their attention quickly turns back to finding the man responsible for this. And as quickly as their spirits rose knowing Tali was alive, they sank when they realized that sometime in the chaos, the man responsible had managed to escape out of the back door. [06:23] With the man nowhere in sight and no lead on him, detectives comb over his apartment searching for any kind of clues or information to figure out who this guy might be. Now, as they're searching, they turn up some truly disturbing stuff. Now, remember how he told Tally that he wanted to show her like a pretty picture? Yeah. Well, his apartment is full of photography equipment, like professional grade stuff and a huge collection of pictures.

[06:53] them. [06:53] of young girls. And it's not just like any kind of business portfolio with like a few of his best shots or anything. This is a massive horde showing a clear obsession. [07:06] Now, though they don't find a driver's license or birth certificate, police do find his identity on a student ID card from UCLA with both a photo and a name. Rodney Alcala. Now, according to the L.A. Times, when they look into this Rodney Alcala guy, they find out that he's a 25-year-old undergrad who studied theater. And the strange part is he's not the monster they expected him to be. He's well-liked. All of his professors adore him. [07:36] And even with a name and a face on this crime, it doesn't change the fact that he's gone. And police have nothing but rumors about where he might be. But the next year, in 1969, Rodney Alcala has made the FBI's top 10 most wanted list. But even with that level of infamy, years go by with no trace of him anywhere. [07:59] Until 1971, when the LAPD get a shocking phone call from thousands of miles away. [08:09] If you listen to this show, you already know that talking about mental health matters. But talking is just the start. Grow Therapy connects you with thousands of licensed therapists covered by your insurance, so you can turn that conversation into real support. You can search by what matters, like insurance, specialty, identity, or availability, and get started in as little as two days. There are no subscriptions, no long-term commitments. You just pay per session.

[08:39] helps you find therapy on your time, offering both virtual and in-person sessions, nights and weekends. Grow accepts over 125 insurance plans, and with insurance, sessions average just $21. Some people pay as little as $0, depending on their plan. Whatever challenges you're facing, Grow Therapy is here to help. Visit growtherapy.com slash truecrime to get started. [09:09] Availability and coverage vary by state and insurance plan. [09:14] The call comes from the FBI office in New Hampshire. Officers there have Rodney in custody. And the way they got to him is baffling. What they tell LAPD is that two girls went to the post office in town and saw his picture on the FBI Most Wanted poster. And they freaked out because they knew him very well. He had been their counselor at an all-girls summer camp. [09:41] It turns out that for some time now, he'd been living in New York City and going to film school at NYU under the name John Berger. It's always so surprising to me just how easy it was to like completely get a... [09:53] new identity back in like the 60s and 70s. Oh my god. I know. Like he literally was almost caught red-handed nearly killing a young girl. And all he has to do is like move across the country, call himself John, and he can just start working in an all-girls camp. Like, are you kidding me? Oh, so and get this. This is one of the craziest parts to me. When he was at NYU, he actually studied under convicted sex offender Roman Polanski. Oh my god. Like, I always used to wonder how these people found each other. Well, I mean, they don't actually

[10:23] They're not like friends or anything, but it's just like a weird coincidence. Right. But like, that was kind of my point. Like... [10:29] The more we tell these stories, it just terrifies me, especially as a parent, because I'm not [10:34] I kind of [10:35] always thought that like what are the odds of like one person being out there but like this is two of them in the same classroom like I thought the odds were so small but it's just so much more prevalent than like [10:47] I at least ever want to believe. Oh, I mean, I completely agree. But the good news is they have this guy now. He's been arrested by the FBI. He's in custody. And the FBI actually bring him back to California so he can be prosecuted for the rape and attempted murder of Talley. [11:06] But... [11:07] there's a small problem. [11:08] Christine Pelosek reported for LA Weekly that by this time, Tally and her parents had left California and moved down to Mexico. Like they wanted a fresh start for Tally and for the family. Like this girl barely got away with her life. So when the FBI asked that they return to California in order to testify against Rodney, they actually say no. Like absolutely not. We cannot put our daughter through that again. And I'm sure seeing Rodney was like the last thing that Tally wanted. [11:38] sides of it. Like, as a crime junkie, obviously, [11:41] you would want her to come back and testify so that she gets justice and justice is served against her perpetrator. But also as a parent, especially as a foster parent with kids, who's worked with kids who've been through even slight traumas,

[11:54] The want and desire to protect them from being re-traumatized, I completely understand. Yeah. And ultimately, that's kind of where her family landed. Tally doesn't testify or appear at Rodney's trial. And because of that, though, they offer him a deal. He winds up pleading guilty to a charge of just child molestation. [12:17] I'm sorry... [12:18] What? Like, obviously, the case probably wasn't as compelling without her testifying, but... [12:25] Like... [12:26] He tried to kill a little girl. Like, how do you give someone like that... [12:30] a break, you know? [12:33] At least tell me he got like a decent amount of time. Well, at the time, this is 1972 now, California had indefinite sentencing laws. So basically, Rodney got anywhere from... [12:46] one year to 99 years in prison. And exactly how long that he would serve is basically up to the parole board based on whether or not they think he's rehabilitated. And I mean, to your point, I think it's a little absurd. I understand that we don't have Tali and she's not testifying, but cops walked in on it. Why can't, like, I don't understand why we couldn't use their testimony to put this guy away forever. But no, he gets this indefinite sentencing, one to 99 years, [13:14] Who knows how long he'll be there. [13:16] And maybe that's why they were fine with this. Like there is a chance for him to be put away forever. And maybe that's why they thought like this was OK. It wouldn't happen. He wouldn't get out. We're going to let him take the plea. But if that was their reasoning, it's almost like those who took this to trial learned nothing through the investigation. Because we saw from his professors back at UCLA who just thought he was so charming and wouldn't hurt anyone that Rodney is a very good actor.

[13:46] he goes to prison. He manages to convince psychiatrists and the California Parole Board that he's no longer a threat to society. And he talks his way out of prison after serving just 34 months. Yeah. [14:01] His freedom doesn't last long, though. He stays out of jail for two whole months before getting busted again in October of 1974, when according to court records, Rodney pulls a familiar move. He pulls up alongside a 13-year-old girl named Julie as she's walking to school and he offers her a ride. But when she gets in, he doesn't take her to school. Rodney takes her to an isolated area near the ocean, forces her to smoke marijuana, and then kisses her. [14:31] he can do any more, police arrive and she survives the encounter. Now, being with this young girl, having and smoking marijuana, that's all a violation of his parole. So he goes right back to jail and stays there until 1977 when he's freed again under that indefinite sentencing law of the 70s. [14:52] Now, when he is released, his parole board makes a shocking decision that would enable this horrible man to continue to prey on women and girls. [15:07] Rodney's parole officer decides to let him leave California and go back to New York City. [15:14] You've got to be kidding me. Like, he's a repeat offender. He's obviously at flight risk. Like, he's made up very clear he's not going to stop offending. Well, and what's crazy to me is when he was in New York City, that's when he was working at an all-girls camp. Like, I don't know whose idea this was, but it seems bananas to me. But the parole board at the time was really big into the idea that sex offenders could be rehabilitated.

[15:44] be the second time did. So away he goes and investigators are stunned, but there's nothing they can do about it. [15:53] Rodney doesn't stay in New York very long. He's back in Los Angeles by early 1978. And according to People Magazine, he takes a job at the Los Angeles Times working as a typesetter. [16:23] as a potential suspect. Now, there's nothing to link him to the murders, though, but police do find marijuana when they interview him. Now, [16:31] I don't know what the terms of his parole were at the time, but since he wasn't with a girl when it was found, Rodney basically just gets a slap on the wrist and a short county jail sentence for drug possession. I guess I just keep coming back to, like, they have him right there and they keep letting him go. Like... [16:47] He's going to hurt other girls. Well, and you'd be right. On June 14th, 1979, a 21-year-old woman named Jill Parenteau is found dead in her apartment in Burbank. She's been raped and strangled. And now right away, police tie the murder to Rodney. But according to 48 Hours, they don't pursue charges because all of the evidence that they have, everything that they think points to Rodney, is too weak to actually build a case.

[17:17] You've got to be kidding me. Nope. And not getting him then would be a huge mistake. Because just a couple of weeks later, it would become exponentially clear that Rodney was not rehabilitated. He was a predator who would never stop. [17:38] On July 2nd, a fire crew up in the Los Angeles Hills are doing some routine maintenance when they stumble upon a dismembered skeleton. [17:47] ABC 7 News reported that the head was separated from the body, both hands were removed, and there was evidence of strangulation. And in addition to that, the front teeth are cracked as if the victim had been beaten. Now, the body looks too small to belong to an adult, and dental records confirm the worst. The bones belong to a 12-year-old girl named Robin Samsoe, who had been reported missing on June 20th. [18:17] and they let Rodney go. [18:19] When police initially investigated Robin's murder, her best friend Bridget tells police a strange story. A story about a man with dark curly hair stopping them in Huntington Beach earlier on in the day that Robin disappeared. She said that this man was asking if he could take their pictures. And the description from Bridget, and especially the bit about the stranger's penchant for photography, perfectly matched that of the man who investigators never forgot about. [18:45] Rodney Alcala. So with Bridget's help, police get a composite sketch made. And here, I'm going to send you the picture of Rodney from the OC Register, and then check out this sketch and tell me what you think.

[18:58] Oh my gosh. [18:59] The sketch is uncanny, like the hair, big bushy dark curls, narrow face, pronounced eyebrows... [19:08] Finn [19:09] sort of mouth and lips, this sketch is pretty spot on. Yeah, there is definitely some similarities here. And according to Rebecca Knott's piece in Groovy History's website, although Rodney's definitely on police's radar for Robbins' death, as he should be, it's actually a member of the parole board, the same board that was so sure he was rehabilitated after brutally raping and almost killing Tali Shapiro. It's that parole [19:39] absolutely need to find Rodney right away. [19:43] Luckily for investigators, this time around, Rodney's actually really easy to find. He's still in California living with his mother in the Monterey Park neighborhood of Los Angeles. Now, of course, he denies being in the area and actually says that he hasn't even been to Huntington Beach in several years. But when asked where he was the day that Robin went missing, he doesn't have an alibi. [20:13] least to the public. So all of that long curly hair, which to me was like one of the most distinctive features of that sketch is like magically gone. So the resemblance is a lot, lot less. [20:26] Now, to the outside observer, when they look at Rodney, he's living a perfectly normal life. He's still taking photographs. He has no trouble getting jobs. He even has a steady girlfriend. Her name is Beth. They've been dating for a couple of months. And just like Rodney's professors back at UCLA, she cannot believe that he's capable of hurting anyone.

[20:45] Talking to 48 Hours, Beth says that their relationship was going really well and that Rodney was really smart and charismatic, just like this super fun guy. But as incomprehensible as this was for Beth and as much as she wanted to convince police he wasn't their guy, she couldn't provide an alibi for him. Beth admits she wasn't with Rodney on June 20th. And she also adds in an unsettling detail that sends chills down investigators' spines. [21:15] that Rodney had just gotten rid of the carpet in his car. Now, he told her that he'd spilled gasoline in there. And at the time, she didn't think twice about the explanation. Like, he never gave off any warning signs or vibes to make her, like, second guess anything he said. [21:33] Beth is the perfect unwitting cover, but police know the truth. And so they get a search warrant and go through the entire house looking for anything that will link him to Robin or potentially to any other victim. But he's sly and there's nothing in his home that they can trace back to Robin. But they still keep him locked up and they just kind of... [21:56] Watch him. [21:57] see if he talks, see who comes to see him. And one day, their entire case shakes loose with one visitor. Rodney's sister comes to visit him in jail. And during the visit, Rodney kind of leans in. He gets real quiet. And he says, hey, Rodney.

[22:16] I need you to do me a favor. Okay. [22:19] And she's like, okay, what favor do you need for me? He says, I have this storage locker. [22:26] up in Seattle, Washington. And I need you to go clear it out for me before police can get to it. Now, because police are overhearing this interaction, they remember something that they found in the search of Rodney's home. They found a receipt for a storage locker in Seattle, Washington. And it was kind of innocuous at the time. Like, they hadn't connected him to anything in Washington. Like, who knows if he still had it, whatever. But now they're sure something [22:56] They raced to get there first. Okay. Why is it always Washington? I don't understand how we got there and got out alive, Ashley. I thought the same thing. Listen, I'm honestly shocked it's not Bellingham. He's got the locker in Seattle. But I'm like, what do all these people know that they're like storing their stuff in Seattle? I promise you Seattle is some kind of like underground hub for these people. So police get to Seattle. There they are, standing in front of the unit rented to Rodney, hearts pounding, [23:26] idea what they're going to find inside. The door rolls up [23:31] And they see something that stops them. [23:34] They're breathing. [23:37] Thank you. [23:38] You guys, I feel like we all have that one friend with that niche expertise. Like they have the best outfits, the most unique decor, amazing vintage jewelry or whatever. Well, imagine if you could shop right from their home or closet. That is what it's like on Whatnot. Now, if you've never been on this app, it is great. It's this live shopping experience where you can bid on the best stuff. I was just eyeing these like three container porcelain kitchen set thing. I think you put like flour and sugar in it. I don't know. I was going to have three different cookie jars basically.

[24:08] flair to my new space. So I have been deep into the antiques and decor side of whatnot. But truly, there is a category for everything. I mean, with over 10,000 fashion, beauty, and bag sellers on whatnot, there is always something for every buyer to discover live right now. And the best part is the deals are unbeatable. You almost never pay full price. It is name brands, but without the retail prices. Download the whatnot app today and get free shipping on your first order. Just search [24:38] Start scoring amazing deals. [24:41] Inside the locker, they find pictures. Stacks and stacks of pictures. Women, girls, even boys. Most of the pictures are explicit in nature. Some are kind of innocuous. And amongst the piles of photographs, they find something even more interesting. A bag of paper. [25:03] of earrings. And one set in particular caught their attention. These little gold studs that looked like they would have been ones Robin was wearing the day that she went missing. [25:15] Investigators show them to Robin's mom to see if she recognized them. And not only does she recognize them, she says they actually belonged to her. And that around the time that Robin died and that she went missing, Robin used to like borrow them and wear them all the time. Okay, so like this locker was like his trophy room to take like these like...

[25:38] earrings and pictures and just keep them for himself? Yeah, I mean, exactly. I mean, we know many serial killers take trophies to prolong their fantasies and remind themselves of what they've done. And like, [25:52] It's kind of the worst possible version of bringing back a postcard from vacation. And for Rodney, his postcard was earrings and photographs. Now, according to court records, over the course of putting together evidence for a murder trial, police began to comb through these pictures looking for more evidence. And among the hundreds and hundreds of photographs is a picture of a girl roller skating on the boardwalk at Sunset Beach. [26:22] What does that mean? It means that police recognize the location as Sunset Beach. Sunset Beach is south of Los Angeles, right in the city of Huntington Beach. That's the city that Rodney claims he hasn't been to in years. Now, this photograph is clear evidence that he's lying. [26:42] Now, police are desperate to find the girl in the photo and praying she's alive. So they release it to the media and they get lucky. They learn that her name is Lori. She's just 15 years old and she escaped Rodney unharmed with a terrifyingly familiar story that I found in California court records from like 2008.

[27:12] for this contest. Now, this is the same MO, same age range of girl, same creep factor. [27:20] So armed with the photographs, the earrings, the witness sightings, the sketch, and Rodney's prior convictions, police and the DA's office start building their case, all while still investigating. [27:32] During this time, Rodney's denied bail and he's kept in prison until he's put on trial for Robin's murder. Now, the trial starts in February of 1980. And by the end of it, in April, Rodney is found guilty. And none of this like indefinite sentence, you'll be out in five minutes BS. This time he is sentenced to death. And with his conviction and sentencing, his story should be over. [28:02] murder is overturned by the California Supreme Court. According to court records, his conviction gets overturned after the California Supreme Court finds that the jury was improperly informed about his prior convictions, which they determined made his trial unfair and violated his constitutional rights. So he goes on trial again for Robbins' murder. And two years later, this is now 1986, he's convicted and sentenced to death. [28:30] Again, [28:31] So what does he do? [28:32] He files another appeal. [28:35] Now, since the appeals process is always very long, Rodney stays in prison on death row in California all the way up until 2001 when he gets a ruling. His conviction is...

[28:46] has been overturned again. Rodney keeps finding ways to weave throughout the legal system, and he looks for anything to stave off the death sentence. And listen, there's no denying this guy is as smart as he is violent. [29:00] But since we are now in the early 2000s and forensics have grown leaps and bounds since the 1970s, DNA evidence is now a staple of homicide investigations across the country. So police can reexamine old evidence like semen or bloodstains and use this new technology to nail down criminals. Plus, in 2002, the California attorney general actually announced that death row inmates like Rodney would have their DNA taken to establish a database. I mean, what we all know as CODIS. [29:30] need like a warrant to take a sample. It's just like the precedent that's out there now. Yeah, exactly. And in 2003, police get their DNA sample from Rodney after he's now spent 24 years in prison. Using that sample, investigators are able to link him to four more grisly murders in and around the Los Angeles area from 1977 up until his arrest in 1979. All four women had been sexually [30:00] strangled in and out of consciousness and then had their bodies posed into unnatural positions. [30:07] And the matching DNA tells a damning story of Rodney's activities. He got out of prison in 1977. And that same year, a young 18-year-old girl named Jill Barkholm's body was found in a ravine. Is this the same Jill that they thought that they could connect to him, but they didn't really have any evidence on? No, this is actually a completely different girl. This Jill was initially thought to have been a victim of the Hillside Stranglers.

[30:37] Without a shadow of a doubt, DNA evidence proves that she was one of Rodney's victims. So following Jill Barcombe, his next victim was 27-year-old Georgia Wickstead in 1977. Then he took the life of Charlotte Lamb in 1978. And it's interesting how they connected him to Charlotte. Her DNA was actually found on a pair of earrings from that bag that they found in Rodney's storage locker. [31:02] Now, the final case that they were able to connect to him in California was Jill Parenteau. And she is the Jill that I told you about earlier and who police always believed was connected to Rodney. But now they could finally prove it. [31:17] With these DNA matches, police and the district attorneys see their worst fear realized. Rodney is, in fact, a serial killer. Armed with their new evidence, the DA's office decides to do something a little different. Instead of retrying him again just for Robin's murder, they want to combine the charges and prosecute him for all five murders at the same time. [31:41] Now, the trial for murdering Robin, Pamela, Charlotte, and both Jills doesn't start until 2010. And Rodney makes a choice to do something that I think we only ever see from the most, like, brazen, narcissistic of killers. ABC 7 News reported that this time around, Rodney was going to be his own defense attorney. And just when you think things can't get weirder, they do.

[32:11] like, and basically having a conversation with the man who murdered her daughter. He also calls himself as a witness and... [32:19] Rodney actually cross-examines himself on the stand doing like... [32:24] different voices. Like he talks like, you know, when he's pretending to be the lawyer, he talks in a different voice than when he's pretending to answer the questions on the stand. [32:33] bizarre. But that's not the strangest thing he does. Now, we've seen some weird evidence in the time that we've been doing this show, but this is a different ballgame. Because [32:44] As part of his defense, Rodney presents a video of himself on TV back in September of 1978. He was a contestant on the dating game, and he actually won. [32:59] Just listen to this. [33:01] Bachelor number one. Yes? What's your best time? The best time is at night, nighttime. Why do you say that? Because that's the only time there is. [33:15] The only time. What's wrong with morning, afternoon? [33:19] Well, they're okay, but night time is when it really gets good. [33:22] then you really read I'm a drama teacher [33:25] and I'm going to audition each of you for my [33:28] private class [33:31] Bachelor number one. [33:34] You're a dirty old man. Take it. Come on, over here.

[33:45] Oh, bring me. We had to go out and boogie. [33:51] When I say I got full body chills watching that, like, no lie. Rodney was bachelor number one, and he actually won. But the woman that he was trying to win a date with decided not to go out with him. She actually talked to the Sunday Telegraph in 2012 and tells him that she got just this bad feeling about Rodney backstage, so she never went on the date. And honestly, that may have saved her life. Yeah, I mean, we say it all the time, like, trust your gut, trust your instincts. I mean... [34:19] Be weird, be rude, stay alive. Don't go on dates with creepy guys on game shows. Exactly. Okay, but like, what was the point of bringing this in as evidence? Like, did he just want to show the jury that he was on a game show? I mean, I think that very well could have been part of it. But the point that Rodney was really trying to make with the clip is he points himself out in the video and claims that you can see that he's wearing gold earrings, just like the ones police found in his storage locker. [34:49] saying like it's the earrings that they linked to Robin. And he's like, no, these are my earrings. I obviously had them the whole time. And according to him, he says this proves that police are wrong and that those aren't Robin's earrings. They're his. Now, according to actor Jed Mills, who was on Seinfeld back in the 90s, this is related, I promise. Just stay with me. He talked to CNN back in like March of 2010 because he was a contestant on that same episode of The Dating

[35:19] And he also adds that he got just this majorly uncomfortable vibe from Rodney, who he described as definitely creepy, even though he was perfectly charming on stage. And to me, this is such a great demonstration of how a killer like this can just flip the switch off and on. You know, like one minute they're the best person in the world. The next their real depravity is showing and it's like a totally different person. And this is exactly what the jury is seeing, too. [35:49] screen while his crimes are laid out in all of their awful detail. The jury sees it clearly, and Rodney is once again found guilty of capital murder in California, convicted of killing five innocent women and girls. And in a surprising twist, after his conviction, [36:07] At his sentencing hearing, a grown Tali Shapiro herself, Rodney's first known victim who barely survived his assault, testifies. And then to combat it or compound on top of it, I'm not even sure why. [36:25] Rodney does this like warped appeal for mercy. And at the sentencing hearing, he plays the song Alice's Restaurant by Arlo Guthrie, which is this like classic American folk song from 1967. [36:41] Here are the lyrics that stand out. Quote, [36:44] I want to see blood and gore and guts and veins in my teeth. Eat dead burnt bodies. I mean kill, kill.

[36:53] Kill, kill. End quote. Oh, my God. Yeah. According to Reuters News, the jury is like, yeah, no. And they reach their decision in a single afternoon. Again, for the third time, Rodney is sentenced to death. There are no more appeals, no more overturned convictions. For once and for all, this guy is done. He's in jail. He's not getting out to hurt anyone else. But after the immediate threat had been contained, [37:23] knew he would no longer be out on the streets preying on women, investigators turned their attention to another issue. How many victims did Rodney actually have? Because if you ask anyone involved in the case, they'll tell you the cases he went to trial for are likely just scraping the surface. [37:45] Thank you. [37:46] You guys, I feel like we all have that one friend with that niche expertise. Like they have the best outfits, the most unique decor, amazing vintage jewelry or whatever. Well, imagine if you could shop right from their home or closet. That is what it's like on Whatnot. Now, if you've never been on this app, it is great. It's this live shopping experience where you can bid on the best stuff. I was just eyeing these like three container porcelain kitchen set thing. I think you put like flour and sugar in it. I don't know. I was gonna have three different cookie jars basically, but I'm redecorating and I'm really [38:16] flair to my new space. So I have been deep into the antiques and decor side of whatnot. But truly, there is a category for everything. I mean, with over 10,000 fashion, beauty, and bag sellers on whatnot, there is always something for every buyer to discover live right now. And the best part is the deals are unbeatable. You almost never pay full price. It is name brands, but without the retail prices. Download the Whatnot app today and get free shipping on your first order. Just search

[38:46] Start scoring amazing deals. [38:49] In 2010, after Rodney's found guilty for a third and final time, investigators decide to do something they've never done before. They make all of those non-explicit sections of Rodney's photography collection public. Now, there are about 900 pictures, but they can only release about 120 of them. And they put those out to the public, asking for help identifying the women so they can learn if the women were assaulted. I mean, if they're even still alive. [39:18] Many of the pictures are taken at the beach or at sporting events like gymnastic practices, and two of the 120 are even of unidentified young men. [39:28] Carlin Miller reported for CBS News that a lot of the photos released to the public actually have addresses on the back, as if Rodney was a hunter tracking his prey, which he very much was. By March, nine women in Rodney's sick collection have been identified. Luckily, all of them alive, though not unscathed, since KTLA reported that one woman tells police Rodney had actually molested her. [39:58] tell police they recognize some of the women as missing loved ones, young women who disappeared without a trace. And that same month, Rodney is connected to three more cases. 19-year-old Pamela Lamson, who went missing from the San Francisco Bay Area in 77 after telling her friends that she was going to go see a photographer who matched Rodney's description. Her naked body was found shortly after. Then two other victims, 13-year-old Antoinette Whitaker and 17-year-old Joyce Gaunch,

[40:28] both murdered in Seattle where Rodney had his storage locker. [40:32] Now, according to Julianne Morgans for Vice News, there's no DNA or fingerprints to definitively connect Rodney to these three murders. And really, there isn't even enough to take him to trial again. But police are confident that he's responsible, even though he's never been formally charged for those. I mean, all this makes me think that he could be connected to even more cases in so many other states. Like, if he assaulted and murdered women in a place that he would just visit, like Seattle, where his storage locker was, like... [41:01] Have they looked at other places, especially like on the East Coast, like New York? Because we know he spent time out there. So, yes, they did. And the New York police in particular took notice because back when the LAPD was starting to collect Rodney's DNA and was trying to link him to their cases, New York did the same. They came out, collected his DNA. They even collected dental impressions as well. [41:31] Over. [41:32] According to the New York Post, Rodney's actually been on the NYPD radar for Ellen's murder for years before they finally charge him. Ever since, his alias John Berger was found written in her date book for the day that she disappeared. But now they're able to definitively link him to the crime forensically. [41:51] After some back and forth and an extradition to Manhattan, Rodney ultimately pleads guilty so that he can get back to California sooner and work on his appeals. Now, Kate Mather reported for the L.A. Times that Rodney is sentenced to 25 years to life in prison. So if he somehow manages to get that third death sentence reversed, he will actually be sent back to New York State to do time there for murdering Ellen and Cornelia. Thank God he is never getting out no matter what happens with his appeals.

[42:21] this is one of those cases where I'm just like [42:23] completely flabbergasted at how much damage one single person is capable of doing. Like all the people he killed, all the people he assaulted and all the families that he's tormented. Oh, I mean, absolutely. I don't think, you know, that we'll ever know 100% for sure how many people Rodney killed. And I mean, today, police estimate anywhere from seven that he's been convicted of [42:53] victims in other states from Rodney's photo collection. And I think there's more to come. Like the most shocking of those identifications to me came in 2013 when this Wyoming woman named Kathy Thornton gets an email from her son. Now, he had grown up knowing that his aunt, Kathy's sister Christine, had gone missing back in 1977 when she was six months pregnant. Now, it seems like a long shot, but Kathy decides to scroll through the pictures that [43:23] had released, and she makes a heart-stopping discovery. According to reporting from Elise Schmelzer in the Casper Star Tribune, right there. [43:34] In photo number 86. [43:36] is her sister, Christine, sitting on a motorcycle, happy as can be in the bright sunshine. [43:44] Kathy and two of her siblings submit their DNA to the National Missing and Unidentified Person System database, and they run them against their files. It takes two years, but in 2015, the DNA comes back with a match. The match is to a deceased woman who was found in Sweetwater County, Wyoming, back in 1982.

[44:04] So armed with the photo and the new DNA evidence, police once again pieced together Rodney's movements to prove that he was in the area at the time. He's charged with first degree murder in Sweetwater County in September 2016. But due to his failing health, Rodney has never been extradited to Wyoming for the trial. He is 76 years old now. [44:34] life. And the rest of us are kind of left to wonder how many others exist. [44:41] are there? I mean, he was only out for a short time, but I think he did so much destruction in that short time. How many missing people? How many Jane and John Does? How many more could have been his victim? [44:57] The photos from Rodney Alcala's collection are still online, and we're going to link to the database on our website, CrimeJunkiePodcast.com. So if you or someone you know can identify any of the people in those photos, please contact the Huntington Beach Police Department. [45:27] We've talked about in this case. If you want to look at our source material, you can find all of that on the website as well. And be sure to follow us on Instagram at Crime Junkie Podcast.

[45:37] And we'll be back next week with a brand new episode. [45:52] you [45:52] you [45:53] you [45:54] you [45:56] *music* [45:59] Crime Junkie is an audio Chuck production. So what do you think, Chuck? Do you approve? [46:07] Okay, Crime Junkies, you know, I absolutely love a twist and a turn, especially when it comes to people who turn out to be someone they're not. That's why I have been obsessed with the podcast Chameleon. Every Thursday, host Josh Dean deep dives into a scam so bizarre, it will leave you wondering, how did they get away with that? [46:25] It is truly one of my favorite podcasts right now and I've been listening for years. [46:29] I think you'll love it too. [46:30] Listen to Chameleon wherever you get your podcasts.