Tatum’s Stunning Return, Wemby’s Big Weekend, and a 2011 MVP Deep Dive With Zach Lowe

[00:00] This episode is brought to you by Boar's Head. What if we told you the taste of deep fried turkey is now available at your local deli? Well, Boar's Head just did that. Bursting with flavor, perfectly seasoned with that indulgent taste that usually means planning your whole day around it. [00:13] Presenting the Friars Turkey Breast only from Boar's Head. [00:17] Backyard tradition now available behind the counter. [00:20] Visit your local deli today. Discover the craftsmanship behind every bite. Boar's Head, committed to craft since 1905. [00:29] . [00:34] I'm going to change your mind. You're for me. [01:02] It's the Bill Simmons Podcast presented by Fando Sports Network. [01:08] And the Ringer Sports Network. Zach Lois here. [01:10] Uh, um, [01:11] I really screwed that up. It's a ringer podcast network. For some reason I froze. I'm so excited to talk about Tatum. Um, [01:18] There's a lot to talk about. Since the last week when we got together, and I was like, all signs are pointing to Tatum on Friday. And it just feels like so many things have changed. The Spurs feel like more juggernaut-y than ever. We're coming on right after they beat the hell out of the Rockets.

[01:34] The Celtics have just inserted themselves now for real into the contender conversation. The Lakers look more interesting. [01:41] without LeBron James, which is a fun little wrinkle. And the Pistons are looking a little gamey, a little teetery. Where do you want to start, Tatum? [01:51] I'm sure you want to start Tatum so we can start Tatum. It is the most exciting thing that happened in the last 72 hours. I would argue it's the most exciting thing that happened this season, just because when you go back to last May – [02:04] And it was like, oh, man, we're not going to see this guy for 18 months. [02:08] And then you think the first week of the season, I remember going to, I saw a home game in the first 10 days and came away from the game thinking, they got to blow it up. Like, this is ridiculous. Just... [02:20] trade Derek White, just start this over. Who are we kidding with this team? And the transformation over the next four months has been startling. And I mean, the craziest thing, [02:31] There's the Tatum piece, which I want to talk about in a second. But then there's also the getting all these minutes and reps for all these dudes now. [02:38] that are now these trained dragons for a 10 or 11-man rotation. You saw Shireman today was one of the key guys in the game who just wouldn't have played this year if Tatum had played the whole year. But Tatum coming back, Friday was emotional. [02:52] For you? It was emotional for him. I think he had a lot of trouble getting through it. I think it was his son sitting in the front row of the basket they're going against in the first half, and he just looked way more like himself today. But I didn't fully 100% believe that.

[03:07] Until this driving... [03:09] righty layup bank shot that he made in the second half where he pushed off his bad leg. I want to call it the bad leg because it's like a surgically repaired leg, I guess. And it was just a vintage Tatum play going off the leg that everybody was like, he's got to be careful. [03:24] He's just far further ahead. [03:27] of where I thought he was gonna be. Is the same for you? Were you expecting 27 to 29 minutes and, [03:33] real intensity? I'm... [03:35] legitimately shocked at how good he looks. And I realize he's 12 of 32, 6 of 16 in both games. [03:42] The eye test is, I mean, I'm absolutely blown away. He looks really, really good already. And it's a little scary for teams who have been saying, like, well, if not now for the Knicks, when? You know, because Tatum's out and Halliburton's out and Lillard's out. And, well, even if Tatum comes back, he'll be a shell of himself. And I wasn't sure how much of, like, is he going to be 60% of Tatum, 80% of Tatum? I don't know what percentage he's at now, but 50 minutes into this or whatever it is, [04:11] He's so far ahead of where anyone could have reasonably expected him to be. It's, it's, [04:16] It's legitimately shocking to me. [04:19] He looks like Tatum. [04:21] There's some stuff like there's some very careful deep dive eye test Tatum stuff. Like I think he's being careful jumping in traffic, like for instance. [04:29] like making sure when he's landing in a sea of legs, I'm sure that's in the back of his head. I thought it wasn't really until the second half that he seemed like he really wanted to like that ready layup I mentioned. Well, that, that layup, by the way, that's on Mobley on a switch getting, I believe we're talking about the same one where he gets by Evan Mobley going, right. It's Evan Mobley. Like he also had a spin in the post around Sam Merrill. They ran that white Tatum pick and roll a bunch to get switches. And he had a quick baseline spin finished through Mobley.

[04:59] trademark Jason Tatum stuff that we're seeing in 27 minutes in this game against Cleveland, a team that's been rolling. I know they didn't have Jared Allen, but whew. [05:10] And the defense stuff too, where [05:12] When they had him out there with White and Jalen at the same time and their abilities to switch. I thought his side to side stuff looked really good, too. Look. [05:23] Going back to Friday night, my friend Hench came over because... [05:26] we vowed if he somehow came back that we're watching the first game together. So Tatum comes back. [05:32] Obviously it's emotional Obviously he's going to be a little nervous Obviously a little rusty [05:39] Can't make a shot. [05:42] Crowd starting to get tentative. [05:45] The missed dunk happens. [05:47] We made my wife make cocktails. We're like, all right, this is now way more intense and excruciating. So she had to make, she made me a vodka soda. She made Hench a gin and tonic. I just want to point out, you had your wife, you didn't make cocktails. Hench didn't make cocktails. She's a good bartender. Yeah. I want to take advantage. [06:06] You know, it's like 4.30 on a Friday afternoon. So get the drinks. [06:12] He finally gets that follow-up rebound dunk, right? Huge release in the crowd. We're like, oh my God, he got one. Okay, now, and then within 20 seconds, hits the three. [06:21] And the crowd just went ballistic. And I know a bunch of people who were there, and they said it was a finals-level crowd. The explosion of that 30 seconds, the two plays in a row, like people were just delirious. And it really went from –

[06:36] uh-oh, is this going to be a lot more awkward and weird and depressing than I was anticipating to, oh, my God, Tatum's back. Holy shit. [06:45] And you could feel the ceiling kind of go up there in that game. And then this Cleveland game was, he just looked like Tatum. Well, I love the way he came out in the Dallas game. He was looking to pass the ball. And there was a play in that game where he got the ball. Nothing was going on. He got the ball on the right wing. Nothing was happening. And you just thought, all right, he's going to get into his Tatum bag and ISO. And instead, he whipped a pass to Derek White and ran into a screen. Like ran, sprinted, set a screen, slipped out of it. Like all... [07:11] It's been the perfect mix of [07:13] getting his stuff within the Celtics system, and then being Tatum one-on-one against good matchups that are produced by Switch. He's looked incredible. And that dunk, that missed dunk, [07:24] was nothing but encouraging to me because on the way there, first of all, it came off a catch, like an active catch. He came off, like caught the ball coming around the screen and right to attack. So you're not doing all the heavy lifting on your own. We're going to give you a head start. And the change of direction and explosion toward the hoop were like jarring to me that he's already here. And he didn't get the explosion quite up to dunk it. It seems like he mistimed it from how far away from the hoop he was, right? Which is just reps.

[07:54] way there was like, whoa, this guy's so far ahead. And by the way, to your point, [07:57] about, I mean, we, you and I were not concerned about the chemistry and like any of these things. We were like, this is going to be fine. Good players playing good basketball is good. Jalen Brown today, I thought had an awesome game. 23 points, eight assists, nine rebounds or nine assists, eight rebounds. I can't remember which, and just making every, [08:16] right play. And yeah, lo and behold, he's still going to put up huge numbers playing this way and play with Jason Tatum. You know, I like what you said about that first half of the Dallas game. The shots weren't going in, everything was short, whatever. But [08:31] He was in the flow of the game, which was encouraging. And I was wondering, people are asking a bunch of questions, and you get the post-game thing. Jason, how does it feel? What's it like to be out there? I'd love for somebody to ask him. [08:44] Do you feel like you gained anything from these four months just sitting on the bench watching basketball? [08:51] Like, do you feel did any has anything slowed down for you? Has anything changed about how you think about when you're out there just from just being a spectator? [09:00] Because, [09:01] I felt like he was a little more patient [09:03] that maybe he was even at his peak, just kind of not asserting himself too much and just kind of fitting in. But I might have been imagining it. What was cool about it, they had Shireman in that spot and Hauser and Hugo and Jordan Walsh, all these different swingers. [09:18] When he's out there, you just kind of forget certain things about Tatum. Like, oh, yeah, he can handle the ball. He's basically a point forward.

[09:24] Oh, now we have one more guy out there who can do that. The lineup that I don't know what the plus minus stats were. [09:30] But that lineup with him and Jalen... [09:32] Pritchard, White, and Kata. [09:34] which we had last year. Kate is a different guy this year, obviously. Pritchard's up a level as a scorer, and I thought they had two stretches in the Cleveland game that I would be really scared of if I was a team in the East. [09:48] Because all they were doing was like, it was either Tatum or Brown in the corner. [09:53] There was Kata setting picks for either the guards or one of the other forwards and just a lot of movement and just things happening until they got the mismatch they wanted, which was usually Harden or it was Tatum on Mitchell. And just over and over again, they were just getting the right matchup and the right guy in space in these four elite shot creators. [10:11] And that was the first time I was like, holy shit, they might make the finals. I wasn't even considering it until the second half of the Cleveland game. [10:20] I mean, Cade is a real guy now and like a real screen role, make plays into short role, like finish rebound defense. Like you put a real guy who does all the center dirty work stuff around those four dudes on offense. That's a scary lineup. And so far, the only like rotation casualty of Tatum to turn is Walsh. Gonzalez is still getting minutes. Shireman is just good. Like Shireman is a good player on both ends of the floor. Yeah, they've looked awesome.

[10:50] You mentioned the... [10:52] not diving into traffic. They're clearly going to get him up to speed slowly on defense. They're going to give him easier assignments. So far, that's been the case. You're not going to guard Cooper Flagg. You're not going to guard Donovan Mitchell. We'll put you on Dean Wade, whatever. You can switch into those matchups. But it's shocking to me that he looks so much like Jason Tatum. I keep saying it. It's shocking. The other thing is what a great sports story it is. And you [11:22] of the game. And it's just like... [11:24] you know, you have your livelihood taken away and you have it taken away when you're at the peak of your powers. Like I was thinking back to that Knicks game, which I thought was one of the best games he ever played, the game he got hurt. And the whole playoffs... [11:36] And athletically, it just felt like he was at the highest level he was ever. You could feel it as you were watching those games. You're like, oh, my God, this guy is just – [11:43] one of the great athletes, you know, and I don't know if it's ever going to 100% come back to where he was, like just from him flying around and challenging everything. And, and maybe it will, maybe it'll just be reps. But even the stuff we saw. [11:58] today, like coming 10 months after an injury like that. Part of it's modern science, but also I do think it's the age. [12:06] I think when you're in your 20s and you're in your prime like this, I think maybe it is more conceivable to come back. But I just thought he seemed so relieved that, [12:15] And I think... [12:16] They did something important, keeping him with the team, which he's mentioned a couple times, traveling all over the place with them and just staying in the fabric of it and staying with it so that it seemed kind of organic. Because this could go one of two ways, right? The other way is the guy just disappears, works out on his own with his coaches. That wasn't like this at all. And I've been, you know, like every other Boston fan, I've been watching the Jalen Jason stuff, making sure Jalen handled it and said all the right things. You were alarmed at points pre-return. You were alarmed.

[12:46] I always thought Jalen was maybe too... [12:50] sentences short of just saying like, I really miss my brother. We're just trying to hold the fort until he gets, I just thought he was like too light. But he's, he made a point of saying that after the game, [13:01] He did one of those Twitch things. And I just thought the way I don't, I didn't feel any dueling banjo stuff at all today. I thought everything was organic. It just felt like, it just felt like they're back. And you're talking about one of the great, unusual partnerships we've had this century. Just two guys playing together for this long is impossible. Like we're going to talk about the Utah Jazz a little bit later. It's tough to keep a pairing together for five years in this day and age. You know, Westbrook and Durant were together together. [13:29] Eight years, right? Even Curry and Clay didn't make it. [13:32] they made it to what 2023 but just in general just having two guys do their thing together like this for a long period of time [13:41] It's unusual. The league's not designed for this to happen. [13:45] I thought there was a little more dueling banjos today against Cleveland than against Dallas. And that was part because Cleveland was just switching everything and kind of making the Celtics go one on one. [13:54] But when you have two players who are this good going one-on-one, you can have some dueling banjos. That's going to be part of it. And as long as they have the mindset, and this is where Jalen has really leveled up, [14:05] this year of when I get into the paint and draw a bunch of traffic, like I'm just going to make this simple play. [14:11] every time if the simple play is me finishing because i've got a good angle or a height advantage or whatever that's it if the simple play is the kick to hauser or pritchard like the little dish cicada that's the other thing he loves to do and even those like there was a stretch even a month ago where some of those were getting a little reckless like he tried some around the back bounce passes we were like oh that that kind of hit somebody's shin and somehow found its way through he's cleaned that up too he's had a really

[14:35] a really great season. And to your earlier, you said, you know, someone should hesitate him. [14:39] what did you learn watching basketball? I would like to ask him, what did you learn about some of your teammates watching them? Because for all the change that the Celtics made over the summer to cut costs and move on to a new era kind of, and prepare for this season where Tatum was maybe going to play, maybe not. He does have a lot of built-in continuity with all the core guys that are left on the team. That's part of the reason why I think this was going to be seamless. Even Pritchard, White, Hauser, [15:09] of built up reps with, but he also got to see them play in a different context. And I wonder if he just sort of like learned there's more breadth to their game or this guy can do a little bit more of this than I thought. [15:20] And also Jalen... [15:22] I just think is a better player than he was last year. And he was a great player. He was one of the best 25 guys in the league. But I like the point you're making about how he's making the right play. I just think he does that more consistently this year. Defensively. [15:34] those three together, [15:36] White, Jalen, and Jason are just... [15:40] It's going to be one of the best things, best threesomes defensively anybody has combined with Kata. [15:45] The other piece, there was some luck with this too, like Horford leaving, I think ultimately was probably a pretty good thing. [15:51] Because this team is a little bit more rebounding and centers and offensive rebounding and stuff like that. It was not stuff Horford was really that good at or Porzingis. [16:01] So the team's a little different. There's a couple things I think we know for sure now that I wasn't positive of. Because from what I heard, Tatum's been playing five on five for a month.

[16:12] That's why he's so far ahead. And they've done a great job of keeping everything quiet. Whatever they've done, starting from the moment the injury happened until now, and it helps when the guy's 27 or whatever and not 34, needs to be studied by other teams. Because this is crazy. Yeah. So he was playing... [16:31] I think more than we realized. And that's why I thought he was going to come back and be 20 minutes. Like he, they, the Shireman proxy theory was correct. Like they've moved him right into those minutes and he's 27 and 29. They want to build him up to the mid high thirties by the end of the season. [16:47] He's probably going to miss, I don't know, four games. So we learned... [16:51] We learned that specifically. [16:53] The Simons trade makes a lot more sense now. [16:55] It was always like this. No, but I think if Vooch was good, it was a bonus, but I think they... [17:02] The Simon's trade was really more about, Tatum's just going to take all of these minutes. And they kind of must have known this at the deadline. That was important. And then randomly, Vooch breaks his finger. [17:12] And I think they probably would have ended up with Garza and the Vucevic minutes anyway. [17:18] because I don't know how great of a fit he was. And I, I, he was the one piece that I just couldn't [17:24] couldn't make sense with the group they have. [17:27] So, um... [17:29] If you're talking about holes, Garza is your backup center. [17:33] Fine. How many teams is that going to really rear its ugly head against? I don't know. I think Tatum would have the ability to play small. It was interesting to watch

[17:42] The announcers, and I love Legler, so do you, obviously. It was interesting. I thought Cleveland went small for a while. [17:49] in the fourth quarter and I thought it was a bigger story that Mobley just wasn't out there Tatum coming off an Achilles tear has less of a minutes restriction than guys who are coming off sprained ankles and toe injuries it's remarkable [18:05] - Yeah, so Mobley, so they went small against them. [18:09] And I'm wondering, like down the road, will the Celtics respond by going small? [18:13] with Tatum Brown, two guards, and one of the wings. And the other thing I think to watch long-term with the Celtics is – [18:19] Will Houser be the guy that starts [18:23] Or would they move Hugo or Shireman into that spot as the fifth guy to try and maybe move Hauser to the second thing? A couple other things really quick. [18:33] Well, can we just stop on Vooch for a second? I just think he was... I agree. They're not going to... Like, Garza's been good. He makes threes. They're not going to miss Vooch pretty much at all. Except I think they viewed Vooch as like... Keita and Garza is like a pretty small... [18:52] center tandem and the Knicks can go double big the Cavs go double big the Pistons are just this ferocious we'll fight anybody we're giant team and I think they I think that could be a matchup thing in the playoffs where okay we just need a bigger guy out here for 12 minutes but hopefully he's ready by then. [19:09] Um, [19:11] I think this might be the deepest Celtics team since the 08 team.

[19:15] Remember that 08 team when they added Cassell and PJ Brown near the end and they just had almost too many guys? [19:21] And they had all these different lineups and wrinkles. Like the fact that Shireman, Hauser... [19:26] Gonzalez. These are real bench guys that any team in the league I think would want, combined with the Walsh piece. They'd probably go 11 deep for real now with Tatum. [19:36] Um, [19:37] And, you know, [19:38] I'll be interested to see how the minutes go. They can use these last 20 games basically to rest some guys, try some different things. [19:47] On the Cleveland side, [19:48] I did have one Mobley question for you because I thought that was a pretty big Cleveland game today. And I thought the halftime guys did a good job of properly excoriating them. [19:58] Now, these afternoon weekend games, I just think are impossible to predict. [20:05] I watched Orlando-Minnesota yesterday, and Minnesota just didn't show up. And I've seen that over and over again on a Saturday or Sunday. Teams just kind of either don't show up or... [20:16] they were out the night before or whatever. Um, [20:19] It was weird that it took them an hour and a half to really be like, oh, shit, we're on national TV and this is kind of a big game. We should really step it up here. [20:27] What... [20:27] Have we peaked with what we're getting from Mobley in your opinion? [20:31] No, I wouldn't say. I mean, what is he, 24 years old? I would be very hesitant to say that we've peaked with Evan Mobley. What's left is just...

[20:47] What is it? I think it's all the stuff that we think might be in there, right? It's a more consistent three-point shot. It's a little bit more aggression, assertiveness on offense, a little bit more with the ball against mismatches, running pick and rolls. Like they just, and you hear that this is going to come every preseason, like, oh, you should see this stuff. That's why I brought it up. And it just sort of. [21:07] you know, you see it in fits and starts and for a game and then he's out this for a week and you don't see him. I think there's, he's still so young that peaked is just way too strong of a word. But, um, I think the question you're really asking is like, what version of Evan Mobley do they need right now to get to the finals for a team that just made a huge trade that was clearly like a red flag of, Oh, we need to get to the finals. Like immediately we can not wait on Darius Garland. [21:37] I will say I'm beginning to like the Cavs. [21:41] even more when they have the two bigs together. I feel like that has become their best look, and we didn't see that today. No question. I want to see more of that. [21:50] Yeah, that's why with this game... [21:53] It was a great win for the Celtics, but I just feel like [21:56] If you take out one of those four guys... [21:59] For the Cavs, it's a little more substantial than with some other teams because – [22:03] I don't think their 5 through 12 is really that impressive. The reason I brought it up with Mobley, [22:09] His stats are basically the same for, he's in year five. [22:14] Basically, it's been the same guy for the last... [22:16] four years. His field goal attempts set year two, he was 12 a game. Now he's 13. He shot 21% from three his second year. Now he's shooting 32%.

[22:29] His rebounds... [22:30] He was nine in his second year. He was 8.7 this year. His assist, 2.8. Now it's 3.8. [22:36] blocks around the same. Everything's kind of around the same. [22:40] And I just feel like by your fifth year, [22:43] I wanted to level up. [22:46] And I still think it's in there, but I also don't know, like, when he shoots a three, do you think it's going in? [22:52] I don't feel awesome about it, but I don't feel bad about it. I just feel like it's a shot that the defense is willing to live with. And it may always be a shot that the defense is willing to live with, given the alternatives on the team that has Donovan Mitchell and James Harden and whatever else. It is interesting that... [23:09] You know, with Allen out, [23:12] He doesn't. [23:13] like Harden and Allen just had immediate pick and roll chemistry, like pocket passes, lobs, whatever. And it, it just, and this is not the first time this has been the case with Mobley and a ball handler when Allen is cleared from the picture and he's the center and the pain is all his for whatever reason that does not come as easily with him and for him as it does for a more traditional rim runner like Allen. Like I want to see just rampage, man, like put some shooting in there, let Harden loose and rampage. And it, it just isn't as easy. [23:43] out when it was immediately like, oh, I'm just going to get 25 points every game now. [23:47] There's more there and I'm not sure what it is. The three-point shot would have to get better. [23:54] The ability to punish any sort of mismatch, I don't feel like he's totally there yet. The defense is really, really good.

[24:01] It's not like I won't be telling my grandkids about it, but it's really, really good. And so it's, I just wonder, two years from now, are we in the same spot? I think about this with certain guys in the league. Like I look at Jabari Smith that way too, who's obviously an easy year younger than Mobley. [24:16] But when I watch him, because I like his game, and I have a lot of Jabari Smith stock. [24:21] And sometimes I'm thinking, [24:24] is this basically going to be it? We're going to be at like 16 and seven and he'll hit some threes and he'll be able to guard different guys. And this is just what we're going to, this is where we're going to land. Is there going to be a jump? Will it have to be, he gets traded to a bad team or is this just kind of the vicinity of where we're going to land? I don't know. We're going to take a break. [24:45] I want to talk about Detroit... [24:47] And the Spurs and the Rockets and the Lakers and the Knicks. That's coming next. It's a lot. [24:52] This episode of the Bill Simmons podcast is presented by Sam's Club. It is that time of the year when you just got to get in your car and go somewhere. I've done that plenty of times in my life. Nowhere gets you ready to go quite like Sam's Club. [25:03] Snacks, the gear. [25:05] Super low prices on gas. They got a bunch of stuff that keep you and the whole crew rolling. [25:10] And here's what you got to do. You got to join the club of yes and. [25:14] at samsclub.com slash yes and yes. [25:18] You must be 18 years or older to purchase membership, and membership is subject to qualifications. [25:23] Visit samsclub.com slash yes end. [25:27] for details. [25:28] This episode is brought to you by Venmo.

[25:31] Supporting your team never gets old, but here's something new. [25:34] You can now pay for your game day wings and rep your team at the same time. How? [25:38] By getting your college colors on your card. [25:41] Score more with the college branded Venmo debit card. Get up to 5% cash back with Venmo stash. [25:48] Sign up at Venmo.com slash college card. The Venmo MasterCard is issued by the Bancorp Bank N.A. [25:56] select schools available. [25:58] Venmo slash bundle terms and exclusions apply at Venmo dot me slash. [26:02] Stash terms. [26:04] Max $100 cash back per month. [26:07] I forgot to mention at the top, it is CR month on the rewatchables. He's an American hero. We did Sicario last week. We have Fargo coming on Monday. We have To Live and Die in LA coming a week from Monday. And then we just had a vote for the fourth movie. And it looks like the nice guys... [26:24] Won the fourth movie with Ryan Gosling and Russell Crowe. [26:28] And then the last movie of the month will be LA Confidential. Oh my God. [26:34] You mentioned something when we went to break. Say your Cleveland point really quick about what happens if it doesn't go great for them this spring. I just, I think they've become a very interesting offseason team. And I think if, let's say, they lose in the second round and it's just another second round loss for this iteration of the Cavs, we've already seen them trade Garland. And you just mentioned Mobley and when is Mobley going to develop? And the Giannis thing could be revisited. And I just like, I'll be watching.

[27:03] Thank you. [27:05] It's a team blow up. Did they sign harder to the extension or no? Not yet. [27:12] I think Harden had one of those games where it's like, wait, is it mid-May? Oh, no, it's the beginning of March. [27:17] You're burying Honeymoon Harden. Is Honeymoon Harden over? Honeymoon Harden might have, yeah, this might have been, I left my purse at the hotel bar and now it's gone. We got to find it. The Honeymoon's in shambles. [27:29] Detroit. [27:29] Lost today. They're 6-5 in their last 11. They are 45-18. The Celtics are now two wins in the loss column behind them, 9-2 in their last 11. [27:37] Um, [27:39] The Brooklyn loss, which I did not watch, then did not have Cade Cunningham in. No Cade. And blew a big lead near the end. [27:46] You know, that's fine. The loss today was a little different because they got their asses kicked by Miami. And we'll talk about Miami in a second, too. Detroit hanging on a little bit. And then you watch some of these other teams in the East that have two, three, four, four, [28:00] guys who can create a shot. And Detroit still, like we say every week, has the one guy who can create offense. And then just a lot of good cutting, a lot of good cuts and some low post play. [28:13] but not a lot of guys who can create shots. And it's just the Herter trade. I just don't understand their trade deadline. [28:20] I understand that. [28:21] We said this in the trade deadline pile when we had it. [28:24] I understand being afraid to mess with the chemistry, but I also think they needed a freelance... [28:29] wing guard somebody and they didn't get it herders really not playing and

[28:34] Um, [28:35] And I just feel like they're a creator short. [28:39] So what do you see? [28:40] I think this has been the concern all season and why – [28:44] None of us have been ready to crown them East champions like we would normally crown a team that was so that was like six games ahead. It's seemingly a blink of an eye ago. It's because, you know, that the offense is going to get harder to come by in the playoffs when you play two non-shooters at almost all the time, sometimes three. And you're really, really dependent on an all world player. But he's just one player. And you have all these little subsets, right? [29:14] comes to him and Jalen Duren can face up. I don't love these Jalen Duren jump shots that are starting to happen now. I think that's like we got to [29:21] Maybe a little 1995 ish. Maybe another off season of working on that before you start busting that out in games. And I love JD. And he gets it's like a little bit of this and the offensive rebounding is part of it. But all that stuff is harder to do in the playoffs when everyone is geared up on defense on every possession. And this has been the concern all year. I'm not going to panic. It's a late season, you know, slide one game without Cade. Team had a huge lead. Everyone is coming back from suspension one by one like beef stew just got back. [29:51] with you like we all had big dreams for the pistons trade deadline all season right like it started with marking in like that's the perfect fit and then it was clear utah was just not going to trade marketing because he's i just gonna i guess be a jazz lifer and just maybe one day make the playoffs for the first time ever we took a trey murphy spin around the parking lot that that didn't bite it doesn't i never really heard detroit being aggressive and they settle on this you know

[30:21] there. And [30:24] maybe they should have asked J.B. Bickerstaff first, like, hey, are you going to play Kevin Herter if we get him? Because we might trade for Kevin Herter. And, like, he's been a breaking case of emergency guy. And he's the kind of player that could help them. Wouldn't change their life. I think we all knew that. But, yeah, I mean, look, this four-team race in the East, and you want to throw Charlotte in and make it five, go ahead and do it. Can we throw in the zombie heat? Zombie heat, five straight wins. [30:54] one way or another. [30:57] So, [30:57] As you know, I'm always terrified of the heat. [31:00] I'd written them off this season. [31:02] I saw them in person. [31:04] Last month when I was back for Kuzi's thing at Holy Cross and the Celtics came back from a big deficit, beat them. [31:11] Khalil Ware looked like he was just a Section 8 for the season. He came in for two small stints in the game and was just a catastrophe. [31:20] And it was like, wow, it's gotten this bad? Like it was one of those. [31:24] Um, [31:26] This last five games, it wasn't just winning the five. I watched that Rockets game. That's when I got scared. [31:33] That was a good win for them. [31:35] What they did to Charlotte on Friday night was notable, and I want to talk about that in a second. But then the one today, too, just taking it to Detroit. Hero's just back. Hero's like, I'm actually offended that you guys forgot I was good at basketball. [31:48] and I was being thrown around in this trade deadline shit. Like, I'm good. Bam, I think, has gotten better offensively as the season went along. There were some pretty shaky Bam stats, but he's basically been a 22-10 guy for two months. Powell's out right now. Powell isn't even playing. So when he comes back, just thinking about them in a playoff series where you have these two heat check guys –

[32:11] You have Bam, who's steady. You have a defensive identity. You have a good coach. You have a [32:18] wings and you only have to go four and three to advance in a playoff series. I looked this up. [32:23] It's true. It's actually four and three. You can have three shitty losses and still win the series. And I just don't want to see them in a series. And somehow they've been resuscitated, but Zach Lowe and I, I'm, [32:35] I'm just horrified. [32:37] I I'm, I'm already looking at a two, seven Boston, Miami series. Maybe you can look at it right now. Cause that would be the matchup if we had it right now. It's Boston, Miami. They got to get through the play in. They got to heat their way through the play. And although, you know, six is becoming quite interesting. Now, Orlando is six. Philly has dropped to eighth after a nightmare weekend where Maxie gets her. Now it sounds like he's not going to be out for a long time, but Embiid is still out with this oblique thing. And so that is flipped almost completely. The Hawks have won six in a row. Don't, don't look at the, don't, don't forget about the Hawks. [33:07] Johnson's played himself into like legit all NBA consideration. I think he's there. I had him on my rough draft like two weeks ago, 13 all NBA and was people were kind of stunned. I was like, I don't know. I think he's been pretty good. And Kaminga has been good for them. I'm not I wouldn't take like the all out victory lap on Kaminga quite yet, but he's very good for them and definitely more productive than Porzingis who finally should be a premature ejaculation victory lap. [33:30] Hey Matt, keep it in your pants. [33:33] All right. Well, you're a seven seed, like settle down. The moment he did that, everybody in the team got hurt. Yeah. The Dylan Brooks who took a little bit of a hit. Yeah. Maybe take the victory lap after the season. Well, the, the bam where stuff has started to work and work big time. That combination in the last three to four weeks has really changed their team. And like Jaime Hawkins, Jr. I haven't done a detailed six man of the earth dive in maybe a month, but I think, you know, he, Kelton Johnson, Nas Reed, there's a bunch of good candidates. He's

[34:03] absolutely [34:04] outstanding and teams just can't keep him out of his comfort zones he spins and drives his way into these little eight-foot flip shots he seems to make all of them and he was a huge difference maker in that win uh at charlotte on friday charlotte's playing right now and they're [34:19] tied heading into halftime in phoenix ironically but so i watched that friday game because they were going head-to-head with with the tatum game so i had on the smaller tv i was monitoring you you don't have to say that you watch a hornets game we all assume that you are watching every parents watch their children legitimate or not that's the thing it's like when i would have zoe's soccer games on on one of the side tvs um [34:41] Charlotte played well. They had 120 points. [34:45] Good game offensively. They kept... [34:48] doing stuff, but they couldn't stop Miami. And I thought it was interesting. It was a little cold water being thrown on the watch out for Charlotte. They could be this year's Indiana. [34:57] bandwagon that I think I was on with three other people. That bandwagon is... Yeah, we didn't even have wheels. We were basically building the foundation of it. But they had nobody in the team that could stop Hero. [35:13] And I think, [35:14] I think if you're going into a playoff series, their issue is going to be stopping those hero-prichored teams. [35:20] these crafty guards, these crafty heat check guys. They just don't have anyone. Their best five [35:27] Everything's good except for that one wrinkle. Donovan Mitchell, I think, would be a real problem for them. [35:33] And that was my lesson from that because they got 120 and they still lost. Miami's going to be heard from.

[35:38] And I think we can officially say the East is better than the West. [35:42] We might be able to say it. I mean, you know, certainly the bottom... [35:47] Five of the West is... [35:49] Not covering itself in glory. No. Nor is the bottom four in the east, however. But it's a conversation now. [35:57] for sure. Well, we were about to have... [36:01] four legitimate East contenders. [36:04] all with various cases going on. Cleveland took a hit today. And the Knicks were the other one. The Knicks... [36:10] who I've been hesitant to trust because every time I'm about to buy in and then they had a couple of good games. I even thought I thought that OKC loss they had was the best game I've seen. That was a good loss. Yeah. That was like, oh, yeah, this could be a finals. [36:25] And then they just get [36:26] wax today against the non-LeBron Lakers. There were some good stats with them. We have the number one defense last 20 games, all this stuff. And they just... [36:37] They just got smoked and they kind of looked like the bad version of the of the next this little Jekyll and Hyde thing they have going. What did you see any of that game? What did you see? [36:46] I've seen pieces of it. I'm going to go back and watch the whole thing tomorrow. But I saw a team that has been, you know, the Lakers played really well in that game. I mean, that's the first thing. The Lakers said it was a good Lakers game. Really was. The Knicks, you know, their losses tend to be loud. Like the two Detroit losses. Like the Laker losses. The Cleveland loss. The Laker lost today, losing by 13. McKilbert just puts up zero.

[37:16] I was texting with a friend of mine who's a huge Knicks fan, and he was just over the moon after the Denver game. And just I'm all in on the team. And that was as good of a road win as you can have in the NBA, just taking it to the Nuggets like that. And I picked the Knicks to make the finals. I haven't been convinced to pick anyone else over them in a complete way yet. But I texted him back. [37:46] being like, ooh, something is... It's just a strange... Yeah, what happened? A strange brew that way. [37:53] I agree. [37:54] Thank you. [37:54] there's a number four seed subplot with the East that I think is worth mentioning. [38:01] where, where, [38:02] You could be in the 2-3 and know that you're going to not only probably play Miami. I think Miami's going to get to the 6th seed. [38:10] So you two, three, if you're the three, you play Miami in round one, and then you play the two seed in round two and you're on the road. Or you could just drop down to four. You play Toronto in round one and then take your chances with Detroit. [38:22] And to me, that's the more palatable path. I don't know how you feel about it, but that 2-3 feels a little quagmire-y to me. Interesting. Yeah, you know, look, Toronto is only a game ahead of Orlando and Miami now in the fifth spot. So, you know, let's- So that could even swing even more, right? That was another, and they can't beat anyone good. I mean, that was another great win for the Knicks. They went to Toronto and blew them out, and Toronto just can't beat any of the good teams in the NBA. So backing up your point that if you can park your way into a matchup against them,

[38:52] a little less terrifying than seeing Spoh stride up and down the sidelines. And like, what kind of zone can we throw at these guys? Triangle and two, should we bust that out? It'll blow their minds. That's, that's the heat, man. Uh, and then the Lakers really quick. Um, [39:06] 9-2 without LeBron, which is a record that will be brought up over and over again over the next... [39:10] Mm-hmm. [39:11] 12 to 18 hours as the talk shows kick in. [39:15] You know who never had a record like that when they were injured? Michael Jordan, Bill. That never happened to Michael Jordan. Okay? Michael Jordan. [39:24] I just like when it's Luca and Reeves. [39:26] Just remove LeBron out of it. I think that's the foundation of a really good team because you could build the right team around those two guys. You know who else thinks that? They're going to be your worst defenders. You know who else thinks that? The Lakers. I know. [39:38] I know. [39:38] And I think they like Kyrie again. [39:41] Yeah, they like playing together. [39:43] So you can see the vision. I don't know why they didn't start the vision in February. And this is just a really weird situation for LeBron because he's still – [39:51] It's not like he's washed up. [39:53] But this has been a weird fit for him the whole season. We've known it. You can watch it. You can see it with your own eyes. And I don't know where he ends up next year, but I find it hard to believe it's going to be the Lakers. I do too. I don't think it's going to be Golden State. [40:07] I find it hard to believe it's going to be the Lakers, but as you've pointed out, I kind of find every scenario a little hard to believe. Golden State needs them. I think Golden State would be the team. I mean, Golden State needs something because this has been a hell of a depressing season for the Warriors. I mean, they still play hard and they play a fun style of play on Steph's there, but this is not going to be the most fun stretch run in Warriors history. There's been some good Warriors news. I bought a small condo on Guy Santos' Archipelago. Guy Gulch?

[40:37] I bought some property on DeSanto Straits. [40:44] They just paid him. They did. They paid him a good, what was it, five a year for three years? Yeah, he's a solid player. He's a very, very Steve Kerr player. It's like just central casting Steve Kerr player. We got to talk about the Spurs too because they had an awesome weekend. They came back from 25 against the Clippers. Yeah. [41:04] I was watching a movie with my wife. I had the TV on the small screen, never turned it off, even when it was like 75 to 50. Hold on, what movie? [41:13] I don't want to say. Okay. It wasn't a movie. It was this TV show called Vladimir. [41:21] I'm unfamiliar. Clearly you're not that invested in it if you have half at one eye on Wemby over here. It's with Rachel Weisz. She's like a professor. It's a Netflix show. [41:30] Uh, it's basically my wife. It's her algorithm. It's just like, they put the show on Netflix and then her algorithm, there's a hammer that actually comes out of the TV and hits her with it. Cause it's so like in her wheelhouse, according to the algorithm that you will watch this now. Uh, so that was on. And we were also watching the Spurs game. I mean, as first Clippers. [41:49] So Niederhauser, who I was just touting to you a week ago. Such a bummer. [41:54] And the fear with Niederhauser is like, this guy's a maniac. He tries to block everything. He's going to get hurt. Of course, he gets hurt trying to make some crazy block out for the year. [42:03] And you could really feel it in that Spurs game because you could only ride the Brook Lopez Express for so long. Great comeback for the Spurs. I have no idea why Wembe cried at the end. Did you weep? Did you weep? Did Vladimir make you weep? I would have only wept if I had the Clippers in a parlay. So they had a big comeback win on national TV, and then they really...

[42:24] you know, thrash the rockets today. And... [42:28] Looks scary. And we've talked about, is it too soon? And we've had all the sparse conversations you can possibly have at this point. [42:35] I got to talk about Dylan Harper a little bit. Oh my God. Who I've liked the whole year. [42:41] I haven't seen a rookie guard like this in a long time, and I'm having trouble fitting him [42:48] in the context of rookie guards, [42:50] We've seen since we've watched basketball. [42:54] He can't really shoot. [42:56] Right. He's not if it's if it's an open three, I don't think it's going in three or four today. [43:02] he's got this combination like [43:06] He's really nice along the bass line. [43:09] He's... [43:10] likes to have his background guy. So I guess the comparison, maybe it would be a little Jason Kidd. [43:15] Like very comfortable. [43:16] with a little space near the low block with his back to a guy ready to go either way. Gets to the rim. There's crazy rim stats with him. Like it's basically... [43:26] him and centers and [43:29] big forwards with finishing at the rim. [43:34] And I don't know where we're going. [43:36] But I don't know if there's much of a ceiling for this. Because when he learns how to shoot, when he gets a floater... [43:42] combined with the back to the basket with the way he uses his body and bounces off dudes and how hard he plays. [43:50] I'm starting to wonder if there's some Jason Kidd kind of potential even though they're different players.

[43:55] 62 combined points for Fox, Castle and Harper today. Throw in another 20 for Kelton Johnson before you even get to Wembenyama. I mean, the depth of scoring and rim attacking they have. [44:07] is crazy. And I, what I love, I mean, I could not love Harper and castle anymore. I mean, and aside from, [44:15] All the highlight plays that Castle delivers, all the sort of classic attacking guard stuff that Harper has. [44:21] They're just so tough and so competitive and they want, they want to outwork you and out physical you. And I can't remember how this possession ended up, but there was one possession in that game, somebody on the Spurs missed and Harper had Finney Smith on him on the left side and was just like, I'm getting this fucking rebound. You're not stopping me from getting this offensive rebound. He ended up tipping it out to somebody. And I think someone made a three and it's just like, those are the plays from a rookie guard. [44:47] A tap out offensive rebound for Castle, a second year guard. Yeah, give me give me Kevin Durant. Like, I'll do my best to guard him. And then, you know, you saw today the Rockets put their shangun on him to start the game and had him on Castle for much of the game, which is a strategy that I've been saying all year. I think the Spurs are going to see at some point they saw it today and it didn't work because Castle figured it out. But those are the kind of plays that they make at such a young age. And they're just winning. They're winning basketball plays. [45:17] Vince a competitiveness and a toughness that rookie guards who want to score and make a name for themselves like you don't see plays like that like this team is so together. They play so unselfishly. They have sequences of ball movement.

[45:31] For a young team, [45:33] where you're like, a team that's young shouldn't be able to just bim, bim, boom, boom, boom, the ball's flying around. It's really impressive. And those two guys are awesome. I'm glad you brought that up because one of my takeaways watching today was – [45:46] They play like they've been playing together for a few years, which I think is the rarest place you can get to as a team. They really understand each other and where the next guy's going to be and how to use each other and how to play. Even that play they ran at the end of the half, [46:02] when they got Wemby that three, it was just, [46:04] They're very well prepared. Some of the credits got to go to the coach. [46:07] And then everybody plays hard, which is the other thing. And it's very similar to the Celtics and the Pistons, where it's like you're not playing if you don't play hard. The thing with Harper, usually when rookie guards that are super talented come in, [46:19] They have their things they can do. [46:21] Right. And they're like, I can do this. [46:23] I can really get to the rim. I'm a really good shooter, you know. [46:27] They'll have these skills that they can kind of dwell on, but they're not basketball players yet. [46:32] And I think what's just so bizarre about him is what a good team basketball player he is, which is why I brought up the kid thing. He's just really smart. I didn't watch enough of that Rutgers team last year. It sucked. It was him and Ace Bailey and nobody else. [46:47] It's amazing to me he could ever be on a bad basketball team because he knows where to go, what to do, how to play off guys. I'm just really excited for him. And then big picture, you think like, [46:58] For the league, this is a disaster that they ended up with Castle and Harper with Wemby. And these guys are all 23 and under.

[47:11] And they're 47-17 now. And Wemby... This team could win the title, for real. I mean, that's not even a hot take anymore. This is... [47:23] one of, I would say, probably the number two pick you would have to win the title at this point. Christmas is what finally, not finally, Christmas was when I said they can win the championship. And nothing has changed. In fact, it's just gotten clear to me that despite the experience factor, and they would be somewhat anomalous among championship teams, [47:41] They have enough and they have a guy who's, I don't care anymore. He's a top five guy. And today was like, you know, you mentioned how this first play unselfishly, super competitive, super hard. [47:50] it, it, [47:51] They drafted a bunch of guys who play that way, but when your best player... [47:55] is unselfish and when Benyama is unselfish one, my favorite things about him and, and plays super hard, [48:02] No one else has any choice but to play unselfishly and super hard, especially when you start winning. And today – [48:09] I know we're going to talk MVP a little bit, and there's just so much uncertainty about who's going to be eligible and who's not going to be eligible. But today it was like, Wemby should be in the conversation. I think Shea still has a clear lead and a clear case, but if he's not eligible, Wemby has as good of a case, minus the minutes, he's a little behind in minutes, but you just feel him... [48:30] every single second on the floor and the defensive dominance, uh, [48:34] is just unheard of what he's doing on defense. His odds during that game dropped from 20 to one to 15 to one on FanDuel. That was an MVP performance tonight. He has, he's in the fourths,

[48:47] He's in the third spot now. He's past Cade. [48:51] Jokic is 9-1 and Shea is 4-1. [48:54] Look, I don't know if this is the 90 Bulls or the 91 Bulls, but we're in that vicinity with this team. [49:00] where you have a potential... [49:03] generational star. [49:05] And you have a loaded young cast. And the only question is, when is this all going to come together? [49:11] That's where we are now with this team. And I went back and I looked at the 90 Bulls. They were 55 and 27. They lost to Detroit in seven. That was the Pippen-Migrant game. Jordan was probably... [49:23] you know, he's Jordan, he's the best player ever. But he was a little older than Wemby. He'd been a couple years in college and [49:29] Um, he'd been in the league for six years at that point. So he's probably a little further ahead than Wemby was, but it's the same thing. It's like these guys that you, when you're watching a basketball game like that, you could bring in my mom, you could bring in your wife, you could bring in your daughter, you could bring in my, you can bring in anybody and be like. [49:46] Does this guy seem a little different than everyone else in the game? And the answer is yes, he does. [49:50] He's doing all these things I don't watch other players do, combined with the identity they have. And what they did to Durant today I thought was – [49:58] Just a sign that you're a really well-coached together team, right? They're like, we're going to do these three things to make it really hard for him. We're going to have Keldon Johnson mugging him. We're going to pick up the ball with him at half court. We're just going to make it really uncomfortable for him the entire game. And they did it. And that was one of the reasons they won. [50:16] So I think about them versus OKC if Jalen Williams doesn't.

[50:20] really become Jalen Williams again in the playoffs. [50:24] Could they take out Shea? [50:27] No? Could they? [50:29] Could they make it really hard for him and make other guys in that team basically have to make plays or they're going home? Yes. [50:36] But we've seen that. I mean, we've seen... And we've seen it. They're 4-1 against them. And today, the Wemby... Class is different, though. But I don't know. Today, the thing that stood out to me about Wemby against the Rockets was... [50:48] You see some games like this and some games where he doesn't do it. I don't know if it's a he was fresher in these games or he just likes to match up better or whatever it is. Today, he did the thing where he just when he got when he faced up off the dribble, he did the thing where I'm taking an extra step to the basket to the point where I can just reach my arm out. And I'm at the basket. He had one on him and Thompson like that. He had another one against somebody else. And when he does that, you wonder. [51:15] Why doesn't he do that every time? And there's just something about that night, that matchup. But today he had a clear directive in his mind of like, I'm taking the extra step or half step off the bounce to the end, just reaching my way to easy buckets. And when he has those kind of baskets, that's when you feel helpless. That's when you feel like there's just nothing we can do. [51:33] You know, [51:35] I remember saying this early on in the 1BA experience that I didn't like how, first of all, the playing him as a guard, I've always, I never liked. I understand they'd go through the process of it, but it was like, [51:45] The question with him will be, when does he realize that the closer he is to the rim, the more devastating he's going to be? And it seems like he's realizing that in real time, to your point.

[51:54] Like, hey, I'm seven foot four and I have long arms. And if I'm three feet from the basket, odds are something good's going to happen. He's just... [52:01] And then you talk about the defense. The Celtics play them on... [52:05] Tuesday, and I look at somebody like Pritchard, who was doing his thing this Cleveland game, right? [52:11] All that herky-jerky, low post, up fake, just maybe stick to threes for this Wimby game, Pritch. [52:19] Reed Shepard made a couple over him in the lane today. I know. Man, it's high risk. Castle over Shepard. Shepard's been good the last month, I think. It's not like he's a bust or anything, but that's... [52:32] It's interesting. I wonder if they would redo that one, the Rockets, because they took Shepard third, Castle went fourth. [52:38] I mean, I would redo it. I'd like Shepard, but come on. I bet they would say no. I think they were just... What about after three drinks? [52:47] they would crack a little bit. You'd start to hear anecdotes that you didn't hear before, but they were all... What about after we do fireball shots? [52:59] Then it's good. How many drinks are you going to serve them? My God. [53:02] You crack! A few readers... [53:06] have suggested to me that, uh, [53:09] KD's nickname should be the burner. [53:12] Thank you. [53:12] I mean, it works on multiple levels. It's... 35 for the burner. You guys had a whole... [53:21] KD nickname discussion, which I really enjoyed about how he unilaterally was like, that awesome nickname I don't like. Easy Money Sniper is better, not Slim Reaper. Slim Reaper was just minted. It's so good. And he just didn't like it. The burner, I actually thought today...

[53:42] I'm a little bit surprised that road crowds haven't found a creative way to [53:47] to throw this in his face a little bit. I don't know if it's going to take the wall. We're not allowed to do that anymore. Crowds aren't allowed to be mean. Everybody knows. The fans all know now. I feel like I'm a little surprised that it just hasn't come up. The wall, I bet if they play at the Clippers, I bet the fanatics who sit in the wall will do something. [54:05] I got an email. I'm trying to find it and I can't find it. [54:09] Um, [54:10] Just because I was asking about the best nicknames of all time. And the guy said... [54:14] The best nickname of all time is Magic Johnson. People literally think it's his name. That's the last stage of a nickname when nobody even really... [54:21] they forget you have a real name. And I think that's a really good point. [54:26] Magic Johnson. [54:27] It's such a good nickname that he had other nicknames. [54:31] I think some people called him Buck. It's like the nickname for them. When you have the second nickname because your first nickname people think is your actual name, it's the final level of nickname. Did you know about one in three people with plaque psoriasis may also develop psoriatic arthritis, which causes joint pain, stiffness, and swelling? [54:49] Does this sound like you? [54:52] Listen to what it sounds like to be a million miles away.

[55:22] Tell your doctor if you have an infection, flu-like symptoms, or if you need a vaccine. [55:28] Imagine being a million miles away. Explore what's possible. Ask your doctor about Trimphaya. Tap this ad to learn more about Trimphaya, including important safety information. [55:41] This episode is brought to you by Whole Foods Market. [55:43] Spring is here, so celebrate it with fresh, juicy, seasonal produce and some very tasty limited time flavors. [55:50] New Whole Foods Market Peach Apricot Rose Italian Soda. [55:55] Perfect for a picnic or brunch, as is their trending mango yuzu chantilly cake. [56:01] But if you're on the go, new 365 strawberry pretzels make a great sweet snack. That sounds delicious. Get savings with yellow sales signs store-wide and everyday low prices on 365 brand items. [56:15] Enjoy the fresh flavors of spring. Save at Whole Foods Market. [56:21] Somewhere out there is a Chevy truck. And the person who drives it, well, that's a Chevy person. You probably know one. Your buddy. Your sister. Ones who always show up. They're the first to rise, the last to leave. They always have that little extra something. And maybe you've got it too. Chevrolet. Together let's drive. Visit chevy.com slash trucks to explore the lineup. [56:48] Playoff matchups [56:51] Detroit versus Philly, Atlanta, or Charlotte.

[56:54] Boston versus Miami. New York versus Orlando. Cleveland versus Toronto in the east. And in the west, OKC versus this bizarre Golden State Clippers Portland. [57:06] None of us are that excited to even have this series. I wonder if you offered any of those teams, you could have the 10th pick or play in round one, what they would take. [57:16] a bunch of them are digging the 10th pick. [57:19] Yeah, that's what I think, too. San Antonio Phoenix... [57:23] Which we're going to have to fix that series somehow. Minnesota versus the Lakers, which would be a mismatch. [57:29] And then Houston versus Denver. [57:32] would be our four matchups. We need some work with that. I would personally like to see OKC Phoenix and San Antonio in the one seed. [57:40] Would be more fun. What is your, I don't remember if they're playing tonight. What is your current Denver concern level after Aaron Gordon came back and they got thrashed by the Knicks at home? And Murray turned his ankle. [57:56] so Jokic looked better this weekend [57:59] That was a bonus. [58:01] Murray did get hurt. [58:03] I am now in the, hey, Denver, just fall to six and get everybody healthy. [58:09] that the last 20 games don't even... But are you still... Be careful. Are you still... [58:16] Do you still have faith in the Denver Fully Healthy team? [58:19] Is it is a juggernaut or are you starting to wobble on like, well, we just haven't seen a lot of Cam Johnson and like, oh, I'm wobbling. I wrote that in my I had a quickie thought section I was going to do with you. One of them is Denver possible year from mini hell that year from hell.

[58:34] It's a year from mini hell. It's like they can't have a week without something happening, right? I call it the it's not our year year. [58:41] That's fair. [58:42] I don't know if they're having it, but they seem to be having a year. If you had it, it would look a lot like this. [58:49] Well, remember there was a couple of KG Celtics years where they were like 25 and 25 in their last 50. And then all of a sudden they would be in the Eastern Finals. [58:58] How did I ever doubt them? If I were them, I wouldn't care about where I landed in this 3, 4, 5, 6. Just like whatever. [59:06] I don't think that's good. Let's get everybody healthy. Yeah. Let's get everyone healthy. [59:11] I have a new gimmick for you that I'd not prepare you for. [59:14] Completely unprepared stock draft. Okay. Okay. [59:18] Buy stock in two guys right now. [59:21] I can start if you want. Wait, just anybody in the entire NBA? Just guys you've been looking at. Not necessarily putting real estate on their island, but just you're buying some stock. So I'm not buying Jokic stock. We're searching for buy low under the radar. You're buying 2015 Jokic stock. [59:37] Okay. [59:39] 2016, running to come in the league. Can you go first? [59:42] Yeah, I'll go first. [59:44] I'd like to put a little... [59:46] Down, I'm going to call my guy. [59:47] Uh, Carter Bryan, I'd like to put some stuff down on him. I mean, you're making me angry with that one. [59:54] That was... He's really the only reason I wanted to have the stock draft. [59:58] Friday and Sunday, the crowd's cheering for him now. They're chaining his name, which is a good sign. But...

[1:00:04] I like that he's one of those quiet assassin, just killer swing guys. [1:00:10] He probably is not going to get into it once with anybody. He just got, if you knock him down, he'll just get up. He's like a Michael Myers. [1:00:17] And, uh, [1:00:18] He's bigger than you think he is. [1:00:20] It seems like he can guard basically everybody in the league. He hits threes. He's athletic. And they got him at the 14th pick. It was a great draft pick, and he's going to be in that team for a while. [1:00:31] That's a great, it's a great putting down a load on him. Slam dunk runner up, I believe. So his, his playoff viability, clearly they are trying to make him playoff ready now. And, and when he was not playing much in the regular season, he's an every game player now because defensively he's a plus he's ready for the playoffs. He's ready for the highest level of stuff. It's just going to be about his offensive readiness and not even just about his threes shooting 33% till hit or miss. [1:01:01] A little tentativeness in him When they put Houston put centers on him And kind of dared him to beat him And attack him and he had a couple of plays in traffic Where he's like I don't know I'm going to pivot around here And like that's the kind of stuff In the playoffs you can get a quick hook If you're a young player a rookie Untested like that Should I make a pick? [1:01:20] You can do one. Yeah, we can only do one if you want. Because Niederhauser is my other one. Who was your other one? I still have Niederhauser stock. I don't care that he gets hurt. I love that guy. Yeah, you should hold that stock. Yeah, I'm going to hold it. Yeah, I didn't panic. I'm just going to, I mean, again, no preparation. I'm assuming Alex Saar is too high profile for this. No, it's just the stock's higher, but you can still buy it. I'm going to buy some Alex Saar stock, and I'm going to sneak in right now to the Malawatch stock market in Phoenix.

[1:01:50] The model watch marina I'm going to plant my flag in there And just it's Mark Williams is hurt and I think he's going to get Some run and he blocked four shots the other night And I'm just going to I'm going to buy now [1:02:03] Interesting. Yeah. Because I was wondering what happened to him because House really liked him. He's been dominating. He's been like Goliath in the G League for whatever that's worth. [1:02:13] Okay. Um, [1:02:15] Noah Penda. Can I buy some Noah Penda stock? Noah Penny Penda stock? [1:02:19] You definitely could if you wanted to. [1:02:22] This is a guy that I've had stock for a while from way back. Sold it, did really well. I think it's low right now. People aren't seeing it. [1:02:32] like a little Robert Williams, the third, uh, [1:02:36] I know he's older, but for this summer... [1:02:39] I think this could be one of those, Robert Williams just signed for three years for 50 million. What happened? [1:02:45] I think there's going to be another... [1:02:49] Another cycle for him as a guy that good teams talk themselves into as a playoff guy. [1:02:55] Three years, 50. I don't see it. I don't see it. He's just not available. I'm just saying, like a really stupid contract that you'd be surprised by. I mean, Jakob Pertl did get a crazy extension that I didn't understand as that was happening. It was crazy and untradable. [1:03:09] Yeah, whatever. But I think Robert Williams is going to have a moment as a free agency center with a deal higher than you think. Which Brooklyn Nets rookie would you prefer to buy stock in right now? And they're priced differently. Like Joman is a little higher price because he was picked. Like if you had to buy one, are you going on?

[1:03:26] you know, the wolf den. What are you going in? Definitely not him. Wow. [1:03:33] I don't mind Traore. [1:03:36] It's pretty good. [1:03:37] Yeah, I think he's 19. [1:03:40] Thank you. [1:03:40] I think if it was like you could only keep one of these five guys who you keep in, I actually think I might keep him over the other four. [1:03:48] But, um, [1:03:50] pretty rough that draft when you think of some of the other guys that were in that draft. Don't say that to Nets fans. They're going to be like, you're missing. You're missing the three minutes in garbage time where Traore hit a scoop shot and Drake Powell guard. I'm like, it's all right. Great. Awesome. They passed on Hugo five times. [1:04:08] that's unbelievable did they took they took him over coward right [1:04:13] Yeah, and a few other good players, too. Yeah, that's a tough one. He's pretty good. He's pretty good. But again, he's pretty good on a team that's horrible, and you would like him to put up a little bit more. I have one more stock guy that I've had for a couple weeks. Jacoby, unfortunately, cornered the market on it. But Naquan Tomlin. [1:04:31] Um, [1:04:32] I have a little on him. I don't even know if we saw him today. We did not. I like him. [1:04:39] He's pretty good. He has an incredible story. It's like a penny stock. [1:04:42] Yeah. [1:04:42] Did you have any others? [1:04:44] Anybody on Philly? Daryl always has one or two guys to buy in on. [1:04:49] Barlow probably shot up a little bit. Yeah, he's fine. I feel like the stock is probably overpriced right now.

[1:04:57] All right. A couple other things really quick before we go to the two things we had. Um, [1:05:03] Rob Dillingham, just a sunk cost, I guess. [1:05:05] It's not going great. [1:05:08] A rare L for Tim Connelly. [1:05:12] It's a tough trade. You do that [1:05:16] Giving up an unprotected pick down the road. You got to feel really good about the player. [1:05:20] And, [1:05:22] One of the things I think about, and the draft's interesting because there's a bunch of really exciting scoring guards in this draft. You don't follow the draft, but it's... [1:05:30] They're probably the best [1:05:32] crew of scoring guards we've had, and some of them are smaller and some of them are bigger. It seems like where teams get in trouble over and over again are these undersized [1:05:41] shooting guards or undersized point guards like the Sebastian Telfair. [1:05:46] the book night [1:05:48] the, the, the, [1:05:50] the guy we're talking about now. These guys, Dillingham, these [1:05:54] These guys that you talk yourself into and they just end up, they're too small. Jimmer? Do I hear Jimmer's music? Jimmer is definitely in there too. [1:06:02] But it seems like that's a recurring theme that you're probably just better off taking a 6'7 guy who can't shoot, hoping he learns how to shoot. [1:06:09] versus an undersized guard. I just can't believe how little he's playing. He has played since being traded to the Bulls. His minutes are up a little bit lately, but I thought they would just be like, hey, don't be afraid to make all the mistakes that Minnesota could not afford to have you make. Make them here. And are they tanking? They're not tanking? What are they doing? They're tanking. Okay. Well, they...

[1:06:29] Every time I think they're tanking, they win. Adam Silver was at Sloan and... [1:06:34] laid the smack down with tanking? [1:06:36] I saw in his very, in his Adam Silver can only lay the smack down like a lawyer. [1:06:41] Like a highly trained cravat lawyer. But if you read, if you put it through your Adam Silver translator... [1:06:47] The translator spat out, we are changing this and there's going to be real rules put in place after this draft was my interpretation. I don't want to hear. When he says I'm an incrementalist, which is fine, like there's going to be change. And I don't want to hear from the peanut gallery over here of owners that are against it. We're doing it. So buckle up. [1:07:06] Thank you. [1:07:08] Shaq didn't know who Baylor Shireman was. [1:07:11] I didn't see this. That's real. That was tough. He's been starting for the number two team in the East for quite a long time. Yeah, I know. It's like a running gimmick that these guys don't know who's on. I know we all love the Inside the NBA guys, but [1:07:23] You could know who are... [1:07:25] Who's in the rotation for the best six teams in the league, I feel like. [1:07:28] Sims. [1:07:29] Reasonable requests from the fans Has this buck season reached Everyone might get fired status yet [1:07:37] because I'll give you their last 17 games. You're just trying to manifest Doc Rivers podcast guests. That's all you're doing. Be honest. No, I'm more worried because I like Doc Rivers. I want him to have a job. [1:07:49] They're 9-8 in their last 17. Here are the eight losses. You don't even need to say stink. We don't need to hear the losses. No, no, no. This is pretty good. [1:07:57] Okay. [1:07:57] They lost by the following numbers of points. 28.

[1:08:01] 19, 28, 29, 23, 27, 18, and today 39. [1:08:08] They don't just lose. They get annihilated. They get blown out. They had Giannis for the 27 and the 18. [1:08:15] And we were here a week ago wondering if things were going to turn around for them. And the answer is no. [1:08:20] Um, [1:08:22] So you don't think this is a blow it up this summer for them? [1:08:25] Oh, everybody goes look like everybody. I'm talking GM coach. We're just it's a reset button nuclear boom. [1:08:33] Giannis is gone, new people, and we're doing a four-year tank bullet thing. [1:08:38] It's definitely possible. And the honest story is not over just because he didn't get traded at the trade deadline. I think we all know it's not over. But, you know, I don't think they're going to trade him unless he demands a trade. I just don't think they're going to because they probably correctly understand the abyss that's waiting for them on the other side of being completely irrelevant. And he's still 31 years old and one of the three to five best players in the league. [1:09:08] change the coach a bunch of times and they would change the coach again in the middle of the season. So anything's on the table. But yeah, they, you know. [1:09:15] I have some silver linings for Bucks fans. [1:09:19] Sure. Let's hear them. [1:09:21] They won the title four years ago, five years ago? We've downgraded that to silver lining. [1:09:27] Yeah, just go back and watch the DVD. That's one. Two, if there's expansion...

[1:09:33] You're not going to lose somebody you really like because you don't have eight players to protect. [1:09:38] So that's a good one. [1:09:39] And then that's mean. That one was mean. You didn't need to. That was mean. Well, it's a silver lining. What about Phanasis? Will someone take Phanasis? I don't think so. They leave him unprotected. And then you do have your first round pick this year. Yeah, you do. And there is a scenario where them versus New Orleans because New Orleans has nothing to play for. They keep winning. Their picks might be around each other. [1:10:03] So they might end up with the pick they would have ended up with anyway, or somewhere around there. It might not. [1:10:08] They might not be like, oh, man, we could have... [1:10:10] blah, blah, blah. Um, [1:10:13] What is your time machine, Giannis trade, if you could go back in a month? [1:10:17] and just force a trade. Because I have a team. I have a trade that I wish would happen because I just think it would have made the league more fun. [1:10:24] I can just do any team. You're going backwards a month and you're being like, I know you didn't want to do this, but now I'm forcing you to do this on February 5th. [1:10:32] Because I think there's a specific one. [1:10:37] Uh, [1:10:40] I'm trying to be realistic for the bucks, right? Like I'm not just going to be like, I want him to go to the Warriors. So I'm going to make a Warriors trade, which you can make a plausible Warriors trade. [1:10:49] I think the most interesting one to revisit is, [1:10:52] that's realistic for the Bucs. [1:10:55] is either it's going to be one of three teams you're going to bring up it's going to be either detroit [1:10:59] Cleveland or Houston. It's going to be one of those three teams. [1:11:02] I had Houston. Yeah.

[1:11:04] Who's going in the trade, Shang-Goon? [1:11:06] Shangoon, Jabari, and some picks. And right now, we watched that game tonight, and Giannis is on... [1:11:12] Giannis is on Houston. We're watching Milwaukee. Shungun's on Milwaukee. And I just think the league's more interesting. And Milwaukee probably feels better about where they are. [1:11:22] I know the Milwaukee fans don't want to trade Giannis. I think it is alarming that he came back and they just got crushed a couple times. I was going to say, does our month timetable extend before he got injured? Because I think that was an under, I don't think that was talked about. We all talked about it, but I don't think it was, this assumption that he was just going to come back and be healthy and 100% and never get injured again. And he's actually come back and looked good, but not like Giannis and is always seemingly at risk of some injury like this. [1:11:52] Wanted to mention Haven't heard a lot from Drew Hanlon Taking shots at the ringer lately About how wrong we were about Embiid [1:12:01] Just wanted to open the door for him if he wanted to keep taking the shots. I mean, Embiid's not playing. [1:12:06] This is another just weird... [1:12:09] Just added to the list of weird injuries, but he did. He didn't do it with Carmelo Anthony this week. I'm sure you saw. [1:12:15] He's played 33, 19, and 33 games in the last three years. This is why we can't put him in the top 30 in the Ringer 100. [1:12:22] One of the parts of being a [1:12:25] high-end NBA players playing NBA games. That's one of the things we value here at The Ringer. [1:12:31] There's going to be a WNBA strike, I think. I think it looks more likely than less likely. It's a disaster.

[1:12:39] I don't think it looks good, barring a miracle, but it feels like we're heading that way, and I just wanted to say that I think that sucks. I understand the reasons from both sides, but it's just unbelievable to me that they would [1:12:51] stopped playing basketball when they finally had momentum after 25 years, and now we're not going to play. [1:12:57] I have a list of teams I've given up trying to figure out. [1:13:05] Bronze, I'm gonna go bronze, silver, gold. [1:13:08] Bronze medal, Houston. [1:13:11] Silver metal, Minnesota. [1:13:14] Gold medal, Orlando. I just give up. [1:13:18] I was actually going to ask you. Orlando, I have no takes. I have no takes. I give up. [1:13:25] Thank you. [1:13:27] What's the deal with that team? [1:13:28] what's the deal with the Orlando Magic? Do they know how to do magic? They barely beat Dallas on Wednesday. Like, barely. Dallas isn't even trying to win. Then they go to Minnesota... [1:13:40] And they kill Minnesota in Minnesota on Saturday. I just don't understand them. I don't understand Minnesota either. That was one of those games where – [1:13:49] You're like, what's what's happening here? I don't understand how this this. [1:13:53] Magic Minnesota games like the NBA just has funny games yeah they both Washington, Dallas, Minnesota, Milwaukee is their four game winning streak so forgive me if I'm gonna just not go crazy over it because three of the wins are poopoo wins the Dallas one down to the wire as you mentioned the Minnesota wins a good one they have talent they're fine I just you know we'll see where they end up I really wanted to believe in Minnesota.

[1:14:16] I was dying to believe they were 33 to one to win the title. [1:14:21] heading into that Saturday game. I was like, here we go. You're crushed by one loss. That's it? You're out? It's just every time... [1:14:30] Every time we feel like we're getting momentum with, here's the mystery contender we needed for the stretch run, it's Minnesota. And then they just suck. [1:14:39] In a game. [1:14:40] I'm keeping him as the mystery contender. I'm not wavering. [1:14:43] That's fine. [1:14:45] This episode is brought to you by Fox One. Watch all 104 matches of the FIFA World Cup live in 4K for just $19.99 a month with three days free. Build your own multi-view, choose up to three streams, and follow player spotlights. Stay on top of every moment with live stats, highlights, and instant replays. The FIFA World Cup, streaming live on Fox One, offers a subject to change. See fox.com for complete terms and conditions. [1:15:14] Study and play. Come together on a Windows 11 PC. And for a limited time, college students get the best of both worlds. Get the Unreal College Deal. Everything you need to study and play with select Windows 11 PCs. Eligible students get a year of Microsoft 365 Premium and a year of Xbox Game Pass Ultimate with a custom color Xbox wireless controller. Learn more at windows.com slash student offer. While supplies last, ends June 30th. Terms at aka.ms slash college PC. [1:15:44] All right. We're going to do our deep dive.

[1:15:49] So we've done deep dives on, we did Kawhi Leonard, [1:15:52] Who did we do last week? [1:15:54] Pretty good one last week. I already forgot. Once we're done, I forget. [1:15:58] Yeah. [1:15:59] We're going to do the 2011 MVP race. [1:16:02] And it's topical because there were some slight parallels until – [1:16:07] The Trey fell off a little bit and Cade fell off a little bit. [1:16:11] Um, [1:16:12] Uh-oh, what happened with the hornets? Hold on. [1:16:16] Do they... [1:16:18] Thank you. [1:16:20] Oh, they're losing. Okay. So, [1:16:23] We now pause the podcast in real time because the Hornets are losing. [1:16:28] Oh, yeah. The deep dive was about the Hornets last week. So we did Kawhi and we did the Hornets. [1:16:34] We were in the 2011 MVP race because of slight parallels to what we were watching this year with Cade and there was a, [1:16:41] Brief MVP case for him, but now that Shea's come back, doesn't matter. This is probably, I think, Ben, other than 2017, the most polarizing MVP race since the decision. [1:16:52] Um, [1:16:53] It wasn't polarizing when it happened because Derrick Rose won. [1:16:57] Um, [1:16:58] Derrick Rose had [redacted address] votes out of 120. [1:17:02] Dwight Howard finished second. [1:17:04] LeBron James was third and Kobe Bryant was fourth. [1:17:08] This was the season after the decision. [1:17:10] Chicago was 62 and 20. [1:17:13] They started out nine and eight. They finished 55 and 12. They were 24 of their last 27 games. And somewhere along the line, we all decided Derek Rose was the MVP. And now as the years have passed,

[1:17:25] because Miami made the finals four straight years. LeBron is who he is. This is a MVP race that people now point to as this should have been LeBron's MVP. [1:17:36] You did not vote for either LeBron James... [1:17:39] Or Derrick Rose. You didn't have a vote, but your fake vote [1:17:43] was not for either guy. [1:17:44] I would have been the fourth Dwight Howard voter that season. I just thought he was – [1:17:51] First of all, he was defensive player of the year and was almost unanimous. It was easily the best defender in the NBA. And it was maybe his best offensive season, 23 points a game. [1:18:00] shot well, the advanced stats all loved him. And I just thought, you know, it's interesting. We were, that is so long ago in sort of NBA discourse times that we were just sort of getting into like on off data and stuff like that. And again, when you're doing these races, it's, it's all different. [1:18:17] you're just splitting the thinnest of hairs between guys who are all deserving. And obviously Derek Rose was the story of the season. The bulls were the story of the season, but one of the, [1:18:27] One of the arguments... [1:18:28] that you could make in favor of Dwight Howard. And 15 years later, I probably over-indexed on it in picking Dwight Howard, was the on-off data that year. The Magic were awesome with Dwight Howard on the floor, and I think they were negative something. I'm trying to look it up now with him on the bench. And the Bulls were really good with Derrick Rose. [1:18:46] on the floor and really good with Derek Rose off the floor because their defense without him was impenetrable. And some of that had to do with Derek Rose. Some of it was probably just random luck. And I probably under underestimated the luck factor.

[1:18:59] in that back in 2011 but um i think there's an there's a ironclad statistical case for dwight not ironclad but you could make a statistical case for dwight howard easily and i just thought he was the most dominant two-way player in basketball that year and the lebron one wait can we talk about dwight first and then go to lebron sure so i had dwight [1:19:21] I think I had him fifth. [1:19:23] And I said, uh, [1:19:25] Kudos to him. I wrote a big MVP column that year, and I said kudos to him for getting about 11% better this season. Blah, blah, blah. [1:19:34] Magic's only rebounder, only above average defender. [1:19:38] 60% of the shots, blah, blah, blah. And then I wrote, "I can't give my MVP vote for one simple reason. He leaves something on the table every night. Dwight Howard should be the league's most dominant player." [1:19:50] Then I had a couple of things that, [1:19:52] about comparing him to Shaq, all this stuff, Shaq's MVP season. [1:19:57] where that Shaq MVP season I wrote, ha, that's the Shaq we were waiting for. I knew he had that extra gear. That's how I feel about Dwight Howard right now. [1:20:05] Hakeem averaged a 24-14 with 4.6 blocks. [1:20:08] 2.1 steals in 1990. It wasn't even one of the best three seasons of his career. I keep going on that. [1:20:15] Are you telling me his 23.1 points, 14 rebounds, 2.4 blocks, 26.1 PR is the best he can do? [1:20:23] No way. So then I wrote, [1:20:25] That's when you ask, wait, why does it matter? [1:20:28] If it's better than anyone else's best season, who cares if he peaks as a player? It's still the best season.

[1:20:33] And then I said, "Advanced metrics should be used to accentuate opinions we're already leaning towards having, instead of forming and shaping those same opinions." [1:20:41] If Howard is Orlando's best player and he's holding something back every night, how can you say that doesn't affect the magic? [1:20:47] So they had the eighth best record that year. They were 52 and 30. [1:20:50] I was saying how he gets dumb tacticals. That was the eighth best record that year? Yeah. Dumb tacticals, dumb fouls, disappears in crunch time, didn't even rank in top 125 in crunch time field goal attempts. They had an uneven season. [1:21:02] Nobody's afraid to play them in the playoffs, blah, blah, blah. How can I vote for him for MVP? [1:21:07] That's how I felt in the moment. [1:21:08] So I think there's an eye test piece to that where it's like, I just don't feel right saying that this guy is the best guy in the league. You've... [1:21:17] You've been, you don't care about as much about that. You're more Spock when you do the case. You're like, here's the mathematical case. [1:21:24] this guy is the best at this, his record's this. I still slide the eye test stuff in there probably a little too much. I don't know who's right. Well, I mean, part of the eye test is he was single-handedly making the Magic a good defensive team, like by himself as the— [1:21:40] Easily the best defense not easily but the best defensive player in the nba. I mean that has to be like when you talk about leaving stuff on the table [1:21:46] um Derek Rose was not a good defensive player that year so he was leaving stuff on the table but they were the number one defense so he couldn't have been that bad right no they were way better they were like a freaking juggernaut from hell without him but that was like again all these guys had cases um

[1:22:06] Everything you said about Dwight is fair. And that was the end of that era of the Magic. That was the last year that team was good. Well, that was the irony of what I wrote is that was his best season. And it was like, is there more there? And it's like, no, there actually wasn't. There wasn't. And there was, in fact, less eventually. But it did feel like at that time he was holding together the last remains of that team that had made the finals and then the conference finals the next year. [1:22:36] And then it was kind of over and yeah. But I, I just thought defensively, he was like, he was a floor every night. Like your floor was pretty stable. [1:22:46] with Dwight Howard in the middle on defense. And yeah, the Shaq thing is... [1:22:50] It's so tiresome because Shaq has perpetuated it too. They had this rivalry over the years, and then they would reconcile, and then they'd be a rival again. He's not as big as Shaq. He couldn't just move people out of the way as easily as Shaq could. Shaq was just the eighth wonder of the world kind of guy. He just was never a polished post-up player. Those were the years where... [1:23:11] They Stan Van Gundy just sort of successfully shoehorned him into a post up a few times a game when you've got a good matchups and we'll throw you the ball good about it. But just do these things you're awesome at and you're going to be the foundation of every single thing we do offensively and defensively at you are the tentpole of everything. And I just thought that was his best season. [1:23:31] So the stuff I wrote about Rose, and it's weird because over the years, I've been like, I got the Rose thing wrong. And then I went back.

[1:23:38] and read how passionate I was about the Rose case. [1:23:42] about that team was 62 and 20. He was the only guy in the, he carried their offense, was the only guy on their team who really could create his own shot, right? [1:23:52] Who else was a little like the Detroit case this year? There was one guy. A little boozer. [1:23:57] A little. [1:23:59] A little. [1:24:01] Usage was pretty crazy. In crunch time per 48, second most field goal. [1:24:05] Eighth most free throw times. Ninth highest assist. He was doing everything. I was comparing it to the Iverson 0-1 Sixers thing and just like – [1:24:14] Just everything was on him game after game after game, and they won most of their games, which matters. [1:24:20] And then Boozer and Noah both... [1:24:23] I wrote, Rose keeping the Bulls in contention for three plus months with Boozer and Noah amidst significant time was the most impressive thing I witnessed this season. Their quest for number one seed should have been derailed in November, blah, blah, blah. He kept them hanging around. [1:24:35] kept them relevant, and they were the best team that year. [1:24:39] and whether he was the best player was the bigger question because LeBron was still the best player in the league, but that Miami season was super weird. It's interesting. What I wrote in that MVP column, [1:24:50] was that I thought Wade had a slightly better taste than LeBron that year because he was more kind of stable and reliable. LeBron had all that. He was the villain that year. He was a little up and down. There were games when you didn't know where his head was. But I really said both. They were basically co-MVPs. [1:25:07] which I talked about co-MVP seasons of 1970, Reed and Frazier, 72, Jerry West, Will Chamberlain, and 06, Shaq and Wade.

[1:25:16] It was really hard to separate the two guys and impact. [1:25:20] If I had to do it over again, I think I would have Rose one. I think I would have LeBron two, Wade three, and Dwight four. [1:25:28] And I think that's how I would go. Because those guys won 55 games. There was three guys. [1:25:34] It was those two and Bosch, Mike Miller, who wasn't exactly awesome that year. [1:25:38] They had Carlos Arroyo, Mike Bibby. Like they were grabbing dudes from the street. They were three on five and they still went 55 and 27. Every game they played was the biggest game of the season for the other team. [1:25:51] So I don't know. When I look back at that, they were two of the best three guys in the league, other than they just want to throw Dwight in there. Could you imagine... [1:26:00] If LeBron had won MVP that year and then had the same finals that he had that season. It would have been worse than the Dirk 07. I mean... [1:26:10] It would have been the all-time... There would have been columns being like, we need to revoke the MVP and give it to whoever finished second is what would have happened. The thing is, the animosity from the decision, he wasn't winning MVP unless they won 60-plus games. I also think it's okay for voters when these super teams happen to take a year... [1:26:32] And just sort of be like, I don't, I got to kind of see what's going on here because the word valuable in there, [1:26:38] does give you sort of leeway to be like, well, that one guy is so centrally important to his team. And these, all three of these guys just teamed up. It's why like, [1:26:46] This is even a level up super team, but the moment Durant went to the Warriors, those guys were never winning MVP again. And I think that was fair. The team's too good. There's going to be someone else doing the same with much less than you guys have.

[1:27:04] I think Wade... [1:27:07] The way from 09 to 11 is the most underappreciated guy of the last 20 years, how good he was. [1:27:15] And he's like, for instance, why not start at 06? [1:27:19] Well, you start it wherever, but those three years specifically, I just think, like I thought his 09 year was one of the best years any two guard had since Jordan. [1:27:30] In 11, he's better than Wade. I wrote that in the MVP piece because Kobe ends up finishing fourth in the MVP. Wade was just better than him that year. He was better, pick a stat. He was better than him defensively. Kobe was still getting those all defense teams at that point. He wasn't the guy Wade was. [1:27:46] And Wade was just as good as LeBron. [1:27:49] and in the playoffs was actually better than LeBron, especially in the finals. I just think they were like this. LeBron that year was not, I don't think, better than Wade. He might have had better nights, but... [1:28:00] I just think Wade was like the engine of that team. And he was the alpha of that team, really trying to keep LeBron's – [1:28:06] head into it. It wasn't until the next year that LeBron ascended and [1:28:09] kind of went to that next level. [1:28:11] But I thought Wade was... I'll never forget watching Wade that year, especially in the finals. [1:28:17] I just thought he had a... I can't remember if it was game three or game four, but he had one game that was just... [1:28:23] He was so fucking good in this game. [1:28:25] In the Dallas finals? Yeah, it was either three or four. He was just so good. I still remember being in the stands like, holy shit. You know, and I just felt like Kobe stole some of his sunshine, I think, because they were going against each other. And everybody at that point, Kobe had become, you know, he was...

[1:28:43] rising up the ladder. And I just think Wade was right there with him for years. [1:28:50] And we don't think of it that way now. No, we don't. And it would be interesting to do the all time shooting guard rankings. One, one deep dive because Wade would be very, very high and was an elite, elite two way player who just like his athleticism betrayed him fast because of all the damage that had been done to his knees. But I mean, you go back and you watch peak Dwayne Wade and it just he just jumps off the screen. There is nobody who can stay in front of him. I mean, he's he's just a remarkable, remarkable athlete. He could pass. The defense was there. [1:29:20] Usual player a guy that Height who could block shots like that and protect The rim and play vertically was Was very unusual and very tough Tough and like fearless from Day one [1:29:31] So that was the other thing I was just saying. Mean-spirited, and I mean it as a compliment. Like, really had an edge to him. [1:29:37] Kobe did too. But really... [1:29:40] carried himself with almost a level of anger when he played in a good way. So that year he was 26 a game, six rebounds, five assists. Kobe was 25, five and five. [1:29:52] He shot 50%. [1:29:54] Played 2,823 minutes. Some of the minutes stuff this year was nuts. Rose played over 3,000 minutes. So did LeBron. I'm glad you brought that up because I was going to bring this up. The top four finishers played 82, 78, 79, and 81 games. Like, is that ever going to happen again? [1:30:10] Right. I mean, that's the best thing with the Rose case is –

[1:30:14] He just played. He played 80, like 81 games, 37 minutes a game. He was their entire offense. He was in fifth gear every game. [1:30:21] You never saw a game when he had a night off. And, uh, [1:30:25] So the more I stared at it and thought about it and read what I wrote, read some other stuff that was out there, I still think Rose is the right call. And the fact that it was that one-sided, I think... [1:30:35] Maybe it shouldn't have been as one-sided as it was, but I think that is meaningful. It shouldn't have been as one-sided as it was. I think it absolutely holds up as an okay to correct decision to make. I wouldn't have been my vote, but I think it completely holds up as an MVP case. And I think all of the, if there was ever a we got this wrong decision, [1:30:56] like MVP discussion about it. I think it would all focus on LeBron. I don't think any of it would focus on Dwight. [1:31:02] or Dwayne Wade or Kobe, I think it would be. It all coalesces around... [1:31:08] Did the voters punish LeBron? [1:31:11] for the decision and when it was still obvious that he was by far the best player because the advanced stats will tell you LeBron was the best player. The advanced stats, not every step, but the advanced stats will tell you that. And I think it would coalesce around him. And I think it's fine that he didn't win MVP that year. I think that's totally fair. [1:31:29] I think him and Wade were 1A, 1B, and I'm not even sure who 1A was. Wade was plus 10.4 that year, and LeBron was plus 10.1. They were just so intertwined. I don't know how you can even say one guy was more valuable. [1:31:42] than the other. And it really was amazing to watch those guys, those first three years, and it kind of culminated in the streak.

[1:31:48] Right, the streak, which was one of the great achievements. [1:31:51] And that was really Wade's last great run, I think. Because even when they got to the 2013 playoffs, he was starting to break down. There's one guy, I was trying to think... [1:32:01] Did anybody have an advanced case? [1:32:03] that we didn't really fully understand in 2011, but now we understand better in 26 if we were doing it with our lens. And it's clearly Dirk Nowitzki. [1:32:12] Clearly. And I wrote some of this in the MVP thing, even though I had him like eighth, where they were basically like 55 and 12 when he played. [1:32:22] And then something like that, 55 and 14. [1:32:25] And when he didn't play, they were helpless. He was the only guy on the team that could create a shot other than Terry. [1:32:31] They had that Roddy Bubba. They're trying to turn him into a thing for a lot of the year. No, he was untouchable. He was untouchable. [1:32:38] Couldn't trade him. [1:32:40] And then it all coalesced in the playoffs and they found a defensive identity. He went up a level. But his advanced stuff was, oh, they're 55 and 18 with him when he played. But he was plus 10.3. [1:32:51] He was 23, seven and three. So it was a typical dirt gear, 52, 39, 89. [1:32:57] And, uh, [1:32:58] And they won like 57 games. [1:33:00] So, [1:33:02] There was probably a little better case for him. They had the fourth best record in the league. [1:33:08] And, uh, [1:33:09] That would be the guy. Maybe if he had to do it over again, maybe he stinks in the fourth or fifth. That's probably, that's a good call. And I remember writing at Sports Illustrated that year.

[1:33:18] that the Mavs were a contender hiding in plain sight because, because of their, he missed like 10 games. I think that he went like one in nine without Dirk or some crazy number like that. And that totally deflated their place in the standings. I remember that year, you know, they played Portland in the first round and I believe that series is two, two. And there's the Brandon Roy game and Portland wins games three and four at home. And everyone's like, here go the Mavericks again. And then it just skyrocketed from there. It's, it's a great fork in the road where, [1:33:48] It really seemed like not only were they going to lose to Portland... [1:33:52] But then they were going to have to blow everything up and maybe that was going to be it for Dirk and all kinds of outcomes. And then all of a sudden it flipped the other way. Can I just say one Derrick Rose thing? [1:34:00] Yeah. [1:34:01] It might be the, I don't want to say rank injuries, but... [1:34:06] That injury... [1:34:07] Heat Bulls should have been an all-time great half-decade rivalry. It just had everything. Contrasting styles, contrasting cities, Noah calling them Hollywood as hell, just defense first, a team that was perceived as a highlight like Lobb Dunk. It was just everything. [1:34:26] And then the Pacers came in and filled the void, but it was clearly like someone's got to fill the void, and they were not as good as the – that should have been – [1:34:33] just four straight years of conference finals and just slugfest the whole way through. [1:34:38] Yeah, there were two great LeBron rivals that got crippled because I think KG's 2009 injury was the other one. [1:34:45] Right, the two biggest injuries in either conference,

[1:34:49] during this whole stretch, where the KG09 and the Rose in 12, where you had teams that probably had a chance to win [1:34:56] one, maybe even two more titles between them. And you look at the team's... [1:35:01] Indiana was the best team they played, probably. [1:35:04] In the East? In that 2011 of 14 stretch that Miami played in the playoffs is probably the Pacers. Indiana took them to seven and then six two times, I think. [1:35:16] I don't know. That Knicks team I thought had potential, but they kind of fell apart. [1:35:20] Then you go to the 2015 when he went back to Cleveland, [1:35:23] I mean, they played a 41-41 Milwaukee team in 15. [1:35:29] that early Giannis with some Chris Middleton, [1:35:32] I forget who else was on there. They played Atlanta. They played somebody else. But I just think the league is so much better than it was 11 years ago. I couldn't believe some of the teams in these playoffs. Those teams back then. Those four years... [1:35:46] They were so visibly bored. [1:35:50] with not only the regular season, but the playoffs too in the East. I remember there was, I remember which Raptors year it was, because God knows they humiliated Toronto enough times. [1:36:00] But it was the one where Toronto had them 2-2. [1:36:03] in, I think it was the second round. And LeBron had this all-time quote after they won game five. Like, yeah, I think it was something, I've been in adverse situations before and this wasn't one of them. And it was like, wow, you're just like 2-2 in the playoffs. And you're just like, yeah, we don't care. Just wake us up when we have to actually win. Crazy.

[1:36:23] Alright, that was a good deep dive. LeBron, though. So you're keeping Howard as your vote? I'm sticking with Dwight. The career from there careened sideways a few times. Got weird. Hit a snowbank, fell into a lake. There's a lot of bad stuff that happened. [1:36:38] As I was researching this stuff, [1:36:42] - You know, as I have amnesia with half the stuff I wrote, you and I did a back and forth piece about the 2013 Lakers as it was going sideways. - Okay. - We exchanged emails. [1:36:54] It's like 5,000 words. Yeah, it was like January or February 2013. [1:36:59] And it was when Dwight's season was starting to go sideways for the Lakers and, you know, [1:37:05] Nash was looking old and Kobe was doing the thing where he's like, I'm just going to, I think it all culminated and Kobe just playing 48 minutes a game and then getting hurt. [1:37:15] But that team went off the rails in the craziest way. We're writing about that in real time. And one of the guys we're writing about is Dwight. [1:37:23] Oh, yeah, this probably... [1:37:25] Probably isn't happening. [1:37:27] By the way, Dwight Howard, just for the record, I wanted to say this because I spent time looking this up. [1:37:32] Dwight Howard, one defensive player of the year that year, I think it was the third one in a row by a lot. He received [redacted address] votes. [1:37:40] The following players were the other players who received first place votes. And this was before the voting was public. [1:37:45] uh, [1:37:46] Kevin Garnett won first place vote. Can't argue with Kevin Garnett. You're in. [1:37:50] Grant Hill, 38-year-old Grant Hill of the Phoenix Suns, got a first-place Defensive Player of the Year vote that year.

[1:37:58] Um, [1:37:58] Thank you. [1:37:59] Joakim Noah got one. Keith Bogans snagged a first place vote. According to SB Nation, Dr. Jack Ramsey on a broadcast claimed that it was him, the voter for Keith Bogans. And that's where he lost his vote. And the only other player who received multiple first place votes with two. [1:38:17] Chuck Hayes of the Houston Rockets. Chuck Hayes. Two first place votes. Low post shutdown guy. We all love Chuck Hayes. [1:38:25] Whoever those two people are, take it easy with Chuck Hazelib. [1:38:31] Last thing before we go. We didn't get to our Utah thing. Maybe we'll do it next week. [1:38:36] I read this book. [1:38:38] I'm going to do a quick book review. I read this book called Masters of the Game by Sam Smith and Phil Jackson. Oh, I have it. I haven't read it yet. So now I will be interested in your review. [1:38:48] you [1:38:49] They go through 75 players and it's basically a back and forth. [1:38:54] Almost like how we did that Dwight Howard thing. [1:38:57] It's a back and forth of their conversation with each player, but each one kind of... [1:39:02] Kim [1:39:03] basically zag into this different conversation. It's one of the strangest books I've ever read. I don't understand if they had a proofreader or an editor or anything. There's certain guys where they don't even talk about the guy. It's like number, you know, whatever, Anthony Davis. And then it's just a whole section, some story about Phil Jackson when he coached for Albany. [1:39:24] There's factual stuff that's wrong. They say at one point Lonnie Shelton got in a fight with Bill Bridges when it was...

[1:39:30] actually Buck Williams. It's just a... I kind of couldn't believe how lazy it was and why they didn't try to make it better. [1:39:39] And at the same time, I got like 20 things out of it reading it. And there were some really interesting tidbits. And it was worth kind of zooming through. The biggest thing that I learned... [1:39:49] And I had no idea. As you remember, I used to love Pat Riley's Disease of Me. [1:39:54] And I made a big thing about it in my basketball book and I would always bring it up and all this stuff. [1:39:59] Apparently, the... [1:40:01] It was actually Lenny Wilkins' thing. [1:40:04] that he called Championship Fallout. [1:40:08] that he called during the year after the Seattle Sonics won. [1:40:12] And he talked about all these factors that happened to your team, and he named it Championship Fallout. [1:40:16] I don't want to say Pat Riley stole it, but Pat Riley definitely... [1:40:22] renamed it into the disease of me in his book, [1:40:26] And then I thought it was a Pat Riley thing, but it turns out it was a Lenny Wilkins thing. And that kind of blew my brain. Half a life is marketing, right? Like, yeah, you know, did the Winklevii invent Facebook or did Mark Zuckerberg invent Facebook? Who knows? Championship Fallout, it's called. So that review you just gave, there were some plot twists within the review. I mean, I thought it was going to be a full-on pan, and then it veered into pretty interesting terms. Because there was guys where it's like... [1:40:53] I don't understand how that's all you had to say about Chris Paul. [1:40:57] Like you couldn't have just done two paragraphs back and forth about Chris Paul and said he went this way.

[1:41:02] But at the same time, I was really enjoying some of the stories. So I don't know. The book, I kind of enjoyed reading it as I was frustrated by it because there was some [1:41:10] There was some... [1:41:12] Some tidbits that reinforce things I heard, like they killed Elvin Hayes. [1:41:16] They talked about Dave Cowens, what a maniac he was. But there was some interesting coaching stuff with Phil. [1:41:24] Like guys that he clearly liked. Like he loved Jason Kidd. [1:41:28] And he kind of didn't like Chris Paul. [1:41:30] And he was like, Chris Paul was kind of like, look at me, look at me, I'm the leader, look at me. And Jason Kidd was like, actually a leader. [1:41:37] So there was... [1:41:38] There were things to gleam from Phil Jackson. And then Sam Smith covered the league. And I really respect Sam Smith. And he had some really good insight on these different teams he covered. So you just kind of had to dig out [1:41:51] the interesting stuff in the book. And that was the takeaway. But this was one of the things Phil Jackson said. I was actually, Sam Smith said this. They're talking about Patrick Ewing. [1:42:02] And, you know, [1:42:04] The Knicks go up 2-0 in the Bulls-Knicks series in 93. [1:42:08] And he said... [1:42:09] They go back to Chicago and Ewing says the Knicks just had to win one, just had to win one. [1:42:15] And he goes, you never heard that from Michael. Down to nothing, he would say, we're going to win the next four. [1:42:20] Ewing was just more normal than Michael. And I was like, that's actually a really interesting point. [1:42:25] There's two types of players, right? There's the guy that would go into Chicago up to nothing and be like, we just got to win one and get it back to New York. And then there's like the Jordan Kobe type. So I'd be like, we're fucking winning the next four. Fuck these guys.

[1:42:36] And I was like, yeah, that's kind of, so it got my juices going on all these different basketball things, but I was still like incredibly frustrated reading it. [1:42:43] So that's my review. More normal than Michael is a section of the Venn diagram that encompasses most of humanity. By the way, on Apple Books, this book is $2. So you could just read it, download it, and zoom through it on your iPad and have a really good time. Well, let's do a book talk. So I'm about two-thirds of the way through the new Larry Bird book, Heartland. Oh, what's the best thing you learned? I mean, it's just, it's all, so far, it's all, like he just got to Indiana State, basically where I am. [1:43:13] childhood growing up and his dad and his family situation. And, but I did not know as much about like how long he was actually at IU before he left. And one of the, some of the reasons why he left and what his roommate situation was. And just like, [1:43:28] you really get a good picture of, of both French Lick and Terre Haute. Like, like they talk about the bars that people would go to and, and, uh, and some of the atmosphere around those early Indiana state games, but it was clearly had something with bird and this international, I, I was not aware or had forgotten about this team of like a high school or might've been freshman year of college, all-stars that went and played internationally and on this trip that became like a disaster. They got into a brawl and it was crazy. There's a lot of good stuff in there. [1:43:58] And I like that it's, I don't even know if we're getting to the Celtics in the book ever. It's all college and high school. Oh, interesting approach. We ran an excerpt about it on the ringer. I saw it.

[1:44:10] A couple other things from that book, by the way. [1:44:12] Um, [1:44:13] Phil Jackson really loved what a tough guy Carl Malone was. And... [1:44:18] I almost wonder, I got to really rethink my Carl Malone, because he, obviously I was always glass half empty on every aspect of him, and even created the 42 club to try to make his resume worse. Because I really valued how bad he was in these end of the game things. He was talking about [1:44:36] Just what an absolute intimidation guy he was and how he would intimidate like Garnett [1:44:42] Rasheed Wallace, all these dudes wanted no part of him because he was just this tough guy. His elbows were always up and nobody really fucked with him ever. And I don't think I've counted that in enough with him. So that was one thing. And then he was talking about Shaq. [1:44:56] just what an awful practice player Shaq was. And he basically was like, [1:45:02] As the years pass, you romanticize all the good things about a player, but it was like Shaq just ruined practice for us. We would have to play four on four. [1:45:09] Like Shaq just was... [1:45:11] Actually, like a negative, negative influence day to day because he just nailed in practices nonstop. And it really hurt us. [1:45:20] So you hear stuff like that and you're like, all right, that's something, you know, it's not just about the stats. And then you would go score 45 and be completely incredible. That's why you put up with it. Yeah. Yeah. [1:45:29] That's why you put up with it. But it was interesting. I'll check it out. Yeah, I'm going to start. I'm going to try to read a basketball book a week and give a little review at the end. [1:45:37] He really loved Jason Kidd, though. Man, it made me wonder if I had Jason Kidd too high in my pyramid.

[1:45:43] whether he should be lower. [1:45:44] Why would that make you wonder if he should be lower? I mean, like I have them in the 40s. Like I'm wondering like, yeah. [1:45:50] Because maybe I'm discounting his shot too much. How could any coach not love Jason Kidd as a player? I mean, he's just... [1:45:59] next level basketball savant, like you in tough and plays defense. Like he's just, he's got to be, he's a coach, coach's player. Well, I wonder, I did the pyramid before the 11 finals and maybe, maybe I should factor that in more. [1:46:12] Because he was awesome in that playoff run, even though he was running on fumes. I love being able to get to whiskey where I needed to go and be the leader of the team, all that stuff. I loved that version of Jason, old man, Jason King, because he learned to shoot threes. And he was like, I'm going to he was like, I think. [1:46:27] I think I can make up a position where I play point guard and I never go in the paint. I just play like old man quarterback point guard. Right. And it's I'm still such a good passer that it works. [1:46:38] Would you rather have Jason Kidd or Chris Paul if you could have one guy for their whole career? [1:46:41] Cheers and good. [1:46:43] Yeah, I got to redo The Pyramid. All right. See, I'm glad I read this book, even though I was frustrated by it. It really did get my juices going in nine directions. So thank you, Sam Smith and Phil Jackson. $2 on Apple Books right now. Zach Lowe. [1:46:56] This was a pleasure as always. Thanks to Eduardo and Gajau as well. Zach's going to be back on his podcast on Tuesday. I have Fargo for the rewatchables tomorrow. And then, not sure, going to do some football, I think, on Tuesday. And then, I don't know, on Thursday. And then, potentially, I think I'm seeing you again on Sunday.

[1:47:14] Okay. [1:47:15] Yeah. Okay. Sounds good. Well, you're traveling their stuff, but we're going to figure out some sort of, some sort of stuff. Got some stuff. Zeklo, thanks, man. Thanks to everybody on Netflix and Spotify, and we'll see you next time around. [1:47:30] Must be 21 plus in president select states for Kansas in affiliation with Kansas Star Casino. [1:47:35] or 18 plus and present in D.C., Kentucky, or Wyoming. Gain problem, call 1-800-GAMBL or 1-800-MY-RESET. Call [redacted government id] or visit ccpg.org slash chat in Connecticut or mdgamblinghelp.org in Maryland. Hope is here. Visit gamblinghelpline ma.org or call [redacted phone] for 24-7 support in Massachusetts or call 877-8HOPENY or text HOPENY in New York for Louisiana. [1:48:05] 6, 7.