Talking Dateline: The Professor & The Poet

[00:02] Mazda has been named Consumer Reports' safest new car brand. It starts with our approach. Every Mazda comes standard with proactive safety features. So you're more aware of what's around you, more focused on the road ahead, and ready before problems ever start. [00:19] Mazda. More of what matters most to you. Go to mazdausa.com to learn more. Consumer Reports does not endorse or promote any product. [00:30] Grainger knows when you're a procurement manager for an office park, you're not managing one building. You're managing all of them. And to stay ahead, you need to see through walls and around corners. Lights about to fail, filters ready to clog, HVAC on its last leg. If you wait until something breaks, you're already behind. Count on Grainger for quality products, easy reordering, and 24-7 support. Call 1-800-GRAINGER, click grainger.com, or just stop by. [00:56] Grainger. For the ones who get it done. [01:04] Hi everybody, I'm Keith Morrison and we are Talking Dateline. Today I'm here with a reprobate named Josh Mankiewicz to discuss his latest episode, The Professor and the Poet. Interesting title, Josh. Did you pick that one out? Let me put it this way, no. Yeah, no. If you have not seen it, you can watch the episode on Peacock or listen to it in the Dateline podcast [01:30] come right back here for our talk. And later we'll have an extra clip from Josh's interview with the killer's ex-girlfriend. Then I'll be joined by Dateline producer Rachel White to answer social media questions about the episode.

[01:43] Are you ready, Josh? Let's do this. I have never been more ready. [01:48] All right. [01:48] There's literally nothing you can do right now that will upset me. [01:52] Okay, fine. [01:53] So this was an interesting story. Josh, what particular part of it drew you to doing this? [02:00] Well, you know, this is a story that has one thing in common with a lot of stories we do, which is that it involves a person who was the victim in this case, Sue Markham. She was [02:13] She was smart. She was accomplished. She was together. She was no pushover. [02:18] But she had a blind spot. [02:20] It's a blind spot for this guy, Jorge Landero, who she originally met as a Spanish teacher. She wanted to learn Spanish. Then he got her into yoga. And then she just saw him as like the guy that she wanted, the idea of the guy that she wanted. Certainly, at some point, they were involved, although that appears to be brief. She told other people, family members later, that she recognized that the relationship was all one way, that he was never going to return her affection. [02:50] But, [02:51] Many people would stop at that point, realizing that the interest that they have in someone else is not going to be returned. She could not stop. [03:00] And the result was that she put herself in this terrible position with this guy. We run into those characters a lot in this line of work. And they are, on the surface, charming. They're able to somehow attract...

[03:17] Women, maybe, as you say, bright, smart women who are nevertheless... [03:22] They know how to fill a gap in a person's life. Was she someone who had not had a long-term boyfriend or husband or had had difficulty finding a romantic relationship? [03:34] I'm going to say yes. I mean, I think she had never been married. It doesn't seem like there was any great love in her life that had come and gone. I think maybe she thought this guy was that. What she didn't see was that this is not the guy for you. And many people told her that. And she did also a thing that we're going to recognize, which is she stopped talking to her friends about it because she knew what the reaction was going to be. And so the result [04:04] around to say, wait, what are you doing? I think all her friends today have regrets that one, she didn't tell them about it. And two, they sort of weren't more forceful. But like, you know, nobody wants to argue with a friend. I mean, if you're doing something wrong, I might tell you once, I'm not going to like keep bringing it up if you've made it clear you don't want to talk about it. Sure. And she's a university professor, for God's sake. So, you know. I don't think anybody [04:34] - Thank you. [04:34] you know, this guy's violent. This guy's physically dangerous. You need to get away from it. Don't ever be alone with him. I don't think anybody ever said that to her or thought they needed to. [04:43] Well, they don't advertise themselves. Somebody who is smooth and homogeneous and apparently very charming but has a violent undertow, they're not going to say, hey, by the way, I can be a violent guy. Watch out. The prosecution theory of the case was that he came over. We're not clear why. Is he trying to get more money out of her? She probably didn't have any money. Is he trying to calm her down? We don't know. We don't know. But they have a drink together and then something happens. And there's a

[05:11] fight. And then he realizes, this is the state's theory, that he can't go back. And they start physically battling and that he's much bigger and stronger than she is. Did he go over there to kill her? Not clear. [05:25] Not clear. However, after the fact, the whole business of moving the car and putting it into place where some idiot might steal it, which, of course, some idiot did. Yeah, well, I mean. Indicates he's trying to cover up the crime, at least. Oh, no, this was a very smart guy. This was a very smart guy. And, I mean, look, you know, in a lot of jurisdictions in the world, a guy with a criminal record who's caught driving the dead woman's car and runs from police, like, that's your suspect and everybody can go home early on the day. [05:55] Yeah. Yeah. But to their credit, I think Montgomery County police thought, this guy's kind of hapless, and he's a thief, and he's kind of a dope, maybe. But this doesn't feel like the killer. But it's an avenue in investigative work that you have to go down because you're going to get asked about. I mean, there were a lot of burglaries in that neighborhood. We should talk about the neighborhood, too, because I know that place very intimately. But – [06:21] Yeah. [06:22] The neighborhood went downhill after you lived there, right? Well, and why do we think it went downhill is the question, right? But, you know, I mean, the cool people stopped coming when I moved out. Let me just say that. That's not true. So before we pick up the case again, tell me about this neighborhood where it happened. This is a suburban Montgomery County, Maryland, outside Washington, D.C.

[06:52] on the first day of shooting for this Dateline story, it was only then, because, you know, Montgomery County's a big place. It was only when I showed up at the actual scene of the crime that I realized that it was the neighborhood that I had grown up in. My parents and I moved there in 1964. And we lived in three different houses, probably within five miles of where this murder happened. And I've probably... [07:18] driven by that house or been driven by that house as a kid, like maybe like a thousand times. I mean, I had friends who lived in really within walking distance of there. I, her fire station was our fire station. Her public library was our public library. I mean, I've ridden my bike past there, uh, all, you know, many, many, many, many years ago. But to get back there, to recognize where you are must've been quite a moment. [07:43] It was, you know, and also, you know, that part of Montgomery County, you know, it hasn't changed that much. It was just me and my parents back then. My brother hadn't been born yet. I mean, or as my dad referred to it, the good old days, but it was an interesting place to live. [08:13] attorney but at the time was a line prosecutor John McCarthy and [08:19] It was great to be a reporter in the same area that I'd grown up in because I knew my way around. Sure. Sure.

[08:26] You know, this is beginning to resemble an old-fashioned British detective story because, you know, it's... [08:32] A reporter drawn back to his home community and why there's a murder he should cover and how interesting the murder is. And he follows it around from place to place in his old neighborhood. [08:44] Having feelings of connection. Right. And then what happens? Mm-hmm. [08:49] Well, yeah. And then, but then he gets together with the girl he left behind. Doesn't that happen? Because that didn't happen on this one. That's not a British murder mystery. That's you're getting all American on me now. [08:59] Yeah, that did not happen. Hang on a minute, Josh. We're going to take this little break. I want to talk about this in a minute, but can we take a break here? And then we'll come right back and discuss the rest. Yeah. Okay. Sure. Right back. [09:15] Insurance is not one size fits all. [09:19] That's why drivers have trusted progressives' "name your price" tool for years. [09:24] Just tell Progressive what you want to pay. [09:26] And they'll show you coverage options that fit your budget. [09:30] Visit Progressive.com to find a car insurance rate that works for you. [09:34] Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and Affiliates. Price and coverage match limited by state law. [09:41] With no fees or minimums on checking accounts, it's no wonder the Capital One bank guy is so passionate about banking with Capital One. He wouldn't just tell you about no fees or minimums, he'd also talk about how Capital One cafes are open seven days a week to assist with your banking needs.

[09:58] What's in your wallet?' [10:00] Terms apply. See CapitalOne.com slash bank. Capital One N.A. Member FDIC. [10:07] This episode is brought to you by Penn Foster. [10:11] Sometimes things don't go as planned, especially with high school. [10:16] When you start to feel like you're falling behind, [10:18] Having another option can make a real difference. [10:22] Penn Foster High School is an accredited online diploma program built for flexibility. [10:29] So whether you're hoping to go back and finish what you started, [10:32] Or you're the parent of a teen who needs a different approach to education. [10:36] There is a way forward. [10:38] With self-paced courses, you have the freedom to learn on your own schedule. [10:43] That way you can fit school around everything else going on in your life and stop falling behind. [10:49] Don't just get back on track. Start moving forward with Penn Foster. [10:54] Visit penfoster.edu slash dateline to learn more. [11:00] Well, talk about the perp here a little bit more. So Jorge was a poet, a published poet, apparently, which I find surprising, but, you know, people have many talents. Is his poetry any good? Have you read it? We did. We read it. Really? Yeah. How is it? [11:22] Not world-class, huh? Okay. [11:25] Maybe it's the translation that's the issue. Very purple prosy, let me just say. But what's incredibly unusual is that he wrote poems or someone with his exact name wrote these poems and published them while he was on the run. And the poems are about being pursued by the FBI.

[11:46] I don't think he ever realized that anybody would... [11:51] was chasing him would see them. I think he was doing this for his own sort of, you know, creative outlet. Or was he being a bit of a daredevil? You never know. Well, you know, he was kind of taunting police in the conversations he had with them. Like, at one point, they posed as a faculty member from American University. He was doing a story about Sue. And they said, you know, can we come to Mexico and interview you? And he was like, [12:21] Right. So, you know, clear that, you know, I don't know if that was a direct threat, but it's certainly an admission that he knew that that person was not a reporter. So did he know that the FBI was going to see his poetry talking about them? I don't know. But you don't often see fugitives from the FBI write poems about being pursued by the FBI. I don't think, yeah, I don't think Capone penned any verses. [12:51] That's for sure. It does. That it does. Wouldn't you love to have been at the place where they finally arrested you? Outside his door. Oh, yeah. [12:58] Yeah, right. It was just on the street outside his house. He's walking down the street to get a soda, I think. And they stop him. Those are always the times. The cop told me once, the thing that gets to him the most about his job is he knows when he's going to arrest somebody, even if there's a long route through the court system, that when he takes that person out of their home, puts them in the back of a car to take them in for questioning, that person is never going back to that place again.

[13:26] And they'll try to rearrange things so that the dishes are done or something or the piece of paper that they need to look at when they return will be there. And the guy is letting them do these things knowing – [13:39] You're never coming back here. You're not coming back. We got you. You'll never see this life again. It's a dramatic moment. [13:46] One interesting thing that I think didn't make the story, the TV story, is – [13:51] Um, [13:52] you've seen this cops place a lot of importance on what suspects do when they're in custody and they're alone right yes because innocent people are climbing the walls right like i can't believe i'm here in this interrogation room get me out of here i want a lawyer i didn't have anything to do with this let me explain everything to you right um guilty people [14:18] uh, the thinking goes can doze off. They get their feet up there because they know they got a long stretch ahead of them. Well, on the plane back home, this is a guy who's been plucked out of Mexico, identified by DNA and is now in, you know, leg irons and cuffs and knows that he's looking at a considerable amount of time like that. He falls asleep on the plane going home and that, um, [14:45] They found that interesting, I think. [14:48] Yeah. What about this? I'm a little confused about Rocio. Is that her name? Rocio, the new girlfriend? That is her name. Was that in Mexico? Yeah.

[14:59] Yes, Rocio was a woman that he met in Mexico. I think he met her through yoga, and then they became friends, and then they became more than friends, and then he and his dogs moved in with Rocio and her kids. And, you know, Rocio tells a different story than I think Sue Markham would have told in some ways, which is she says, you know, he was very sweet to me, and he was very interested in me, and then things change. You know, we're living together, he cheated on me. She says during sex he would... [15:29] choke her in a way that she found particularly alarming. He would separate her from her friends. He was sort of- More typical controlling, violent behavior. He was verbally abusive. Now, this guy is a guy that that personality is a guy that you and I have covered like dozens of times. That person is like a lot of the guys that get arrested on date and they're not writing any poetry. Finally, she sort of summoned up her courage and knew that [15:59] threw him out of her house and she got an order of protection against him and they were done and then later after she heard he'd been arrested she's not the person who called the fbi from everything we know she did not realize that he was a fugitive only that he was a bad guy um then she called investigators and gave her story we had this extra clip of sound from your interview with rossio when she's talking about her struggles with her relationship with jorge and she's talking [16:25] And how she ended up sharing her story. So shall we have a listen? Yes. What made you call police in Maryland?

[16:35] Uh... [16:36] Since it was so similar, what happened, [16:39] - Yeah. [16:40] I thought that [16:42] this person was having a serial conduct. [16:47] And [16:48] Maybe my [16:50] my experience [16:51] could [16:52] I helped to prove that. [16:54] That took a lot of courage, you know, to [16:57] call the police in Maryland. You didn't have to do that. [17:00] Well... [17:02] I think I didn't have any other choice. I feel like... [17:07] that's [17:09] They only... [17:10] path for me. [17:13] I understand when [17:15] People have told me [17:16] that I'm brave, [17:18] But I just think [17:20] That's... [17:22] Thank you. [17:23] um [17:24] I don't know how to explain it. There's no other way I can [17:28] Go. [17:29] The interesting thing about her story, I think, is that, you know, there's the question of, well, you know, was she going to be his next victim? Whether anything worse was going to happen, that we're not going to know. There wasn't any insurance policy on her. But it was certainly heading in a bad direction. But, yeah, I mean, I don't think there's any question that she took steps to protect herself and her family and that that was the right thing to do. [17:59] wrong guy that is a giant red flag and you should not do that like talk to your friends they will the advice of your friends is worth something it's the biggest red flag of all oh yeah no no that's that's a very very bad sign i agree yeah it's time to say goodbye now josh

[18:17] You think it's time to say goodbye, but actually, I happen to know that you have been a very active guy recently. Me? No, no, no. Yes, you just left the confines of your comfortable home here in Southern California, and you did a jailhouse interview, didn't you? [18:36] For an upcoming story. Yes, I did. Right? I just want to say, I love that you are out there and you are still chasing the bad guys. Oh, stop it now. Come on. Here, I came away from this and perhaps I'm naive, Josh. I allow that possibility every day that frequently I am. But I went and I conducted a jailhouse interview with somebody who had been convicted and [19:03] of murder, who will spend... [19:06] The rest of his days... [19:07] in prison, [19:09] And I left there thinking... [19:11] He might not belong there, though... [19:14] I mean, I've heard lots of people offer their claims and their opinions and their I'm Innocence over the years, lots of them. And you kind of know when they're— Most of them are lying. Most of them are bogus, yeah, sure. This one is interesting. I love that you're out there. There may be snow on the roof, but there's still fire in the furnace. That's this guy right here, baby. Yeah, every once in a while I take a walk outside, dude. [19:40] you know. [19:41] Take my dog for a walk, that kind of thing. [19:44] all right keith morrison folks coming soon to your local airport

[19:50] Sure. [19:51] Right. Yeah. You know, another little interesting thing happened to me yesterday when I was on that trip. You know, occasionally people, as you know, will come and say hello. Oh, yes. And there was a group of people. I think they were FBI, actually, from— [20:05] who stopped and we had a picture taken, but a mother-daughter... [20:09] came to speak to me and they were lovely, lovely people. And they were traveling to Sacramento to see state legislators to ask for their support for a campaign to fund a program to help poor children get hearing aids, poor children who are unable to afford, you know, and they just go through life without being able to hear well. And I thought, "Well, that's nice. It's a nice thing to do." And they said, "Hello." [20:35] On the way up. And then on the way back from Sacramento, well, who should I see on the airplane but them? I thought, well, that's an interesting little coincidence. The life we live on the road, as you know, Josh, can be very interesting and produce meetings that you never expect to happen. I agree. It's where you meet the audience face to face. And my contact with the audience almost, I would say, 100% positive. It's great. [21:05] Watch or listen. Yeah. And when I meet them, they all ask me the same thing. And what they ask me is, what's Keith really like? [21:13] Aha. [21:14] and you tell him he is a prince of a man, [21:16] who once in a while goes outside his office, and occasionally even gets on an airplane, but not very often.

[21:22] That's pretty much it, yeah. [21:24] Yeah. [21:28] So a delight to speak to you, Mr. Mankiewicz, as always. Thank you. Great to see you. And we'll be back with Rachel White soon. Rachel White, a far more interesting person to talk to after this. She produced this story and she did a great job. Yeah. [21:51] Festival season is here, and Apple Cash is an easy and secure way to split the bill. Just send or request money right in your group chat in the Messages app. Once you're settled up, you can spend the money you receive anywhere Apple Pay is accepted. Open your wallet app and set up Apple Cash today. Apple Cash services are provided by Green Dot Bank, member FDIC. [22:20] With no fees or minimums on checking accounts, it's no wonder the Capital One bank guy is so passionate about banking with Capital One. He wouldn't just tell you about no fees or minimums, he'd also talk about how Capital One cafes are open seven days a week to assist with your banking needs. [22:38] "'What's in your wallet?' [22:39] Terms apply. See CapitalOne.com slash bank. Capital One N.A. Member FDIC. [22:48] Pandora jewelry brings the sparkle to summer, now with even better prices. Shop now for up to 50% off select jewelry, featuring personalized pieces to must-have summer favorites. Timeless jewelry made to move with you through every moment. Shop in-store or online now through July 5th. Terms and conditions apply. See Pandora.net for more details.

[23:08] you [23:13] Hi, everybody. I'm back with Dateline producer Rachel White, who worked on this episode, and we're going to answer some of your questions from social media, which came after the program aired. [23:24] Thank you for having me. Yeah. Josh is in some far-off place, I'm assuming, pretending to work. Is that what he is? Maybe he's on to the next. That's the charitable way of looking at it. I'm sure it's true, actually. So let's ask the questions. Eric Purser on Twitter asks, Eric T. Purser, why didn't her friends tell the police about the poet to begin with? Well, Rachel? It's a good question. [23:54] It's 2010, and her friends believed that Jorge Landeros, the poet, had moved to Mexico back in 2008. So from their perspective, the relationship was long over, and they learned that they were still in pretty frequent contact after she passed away. [24:24] Mexico. [24:25] I'm going to put it on the screen for anybody watching the video version of the podcast. It's a lovely picture, by the way. And Rachel, you are in it from the, what, you're the second from the right in the picture? Yep, that's me in the blue scarf. There you are. It's great.

[24:40] Must have been a fun trip. And the viewer asks, was this in Juarez? [24:45] So that was in Mexico City. That's where we were on that day shooting some B-roll, as we call it, of, you know, Mexico scenics. And that's in a very famous park in Mexico City. It's beautiful. Yeah. May I just offer a little... [25:03] Compliment to Mexico City. I think it's, my God, it's a wonderful city. The architecture, the sort of feel of the place, the grandeur. [25:13] Mexico City is underrated, I think, by a lot of Americans. Lisa Scott on Facebook says, this is the second high-profile murder by yoga instructors. [25:24] I thought yoga was supposed to relax you and give you inner peace. The other yoga instructor was the woman whose name was Caitlin, who killed Mo Wilson. I remember that one very well because that was my story. The cyclist, of course. It's really just a comment. Lisa says, I'll stick to aqua aerobics. Thank you. But, you know, there's no reason why somebody in aqua aerobics couldn't [25:50] Get a little... [25:51] Jiggy as well. You know, maybe you heard this on your story too with the yoga instructor, but a few people made comments to us like, you know, [26:01] You're in a place that is supposed to be zen and you're supposed to be mindful and relaxed. And there was something about the yoga instructor that you just kind of inherently trust. They seem very grounded, very centered. So we did get that comment a few times. So I'm curious about something. I wonder if yoga instructors are sometimes like, you know, other –

[26:23] priest-like occupations, which tend to attract people who have ulterior motives. In other words, somebody becomes a Zen, loving, special kind of person, yoga instructor, precisely because he is kind of on the hunt. [26:40] Do you think that applies here? [26:42] It could be. I mean, you know, we were told by people in this story that Jorge Landeros said that, you know, he studied yoga in India and it made him want to divest himself of his earthly possessions and live in a cave. Like, that was his mindset upon, you know, going there. [27:12] lack of income, right? So he removed that burden from himself, but essentially found someone else to put it on. Yeah. What a handy dandy way to live that sort of lifestyle, right? [27:24] Mm-hmm. Millie Yantis on Facebook asks this question. Did he receive the life insurance payout? He did not. His attorneys tell us that he didn't even attempt to collect the life insurance payout. [27:37] At PeaceMessenger1 on Twitter says, Sue must have been amazing because there is nothing in this wide world that could make me love accounting. [27:46] I think I probably have to agree with you, Peace Messenger One. [27:50] I agree. I certainly agree. I mean, we heard time and time again people telling us how she made studying and accounting fun. And as you learn watching our story, she took an accounting job for the Ringling Brothers Circus. And her brother told us a story about how she would explain certain things about working at the circus and how she had to figure out the depreciation of elephants, for example.

[28:20] And I think she took those things that she learned at the Ringling Brothers into the classroom. So I could see how that would be a fun way to learn counting. And finally, Raven Red, I should say. Raven Red on Facebook says, I would have enjoyed counting. [28:33] having Sue as a friend, which is probably in a... [28:37] appropriate way to begin this ending. I think that a lot of people that we talked to certainly felt that way. I mean, part of producing a show at Dateline is gathering photos from family and friends. And, you know, sometimes you get a lot, sometimes you don't get very many, just depending on a million different reasons. In this case, we got hundreds of photos of Sue and they were [29:07] friends that she was hosting, always a huge smile on her face. She just really seemed like a lovely person, somebody that you would want to hang out with and be around for sure. Well, Rachel, thank you so much for answering these questions for us. And clearly, you were deeply involved in getting that story on television. Good job. It was good. Thank you very much. Before we go, I have a question for you, Keith, from one of our viewers. [29:37] Riley in Montana. Okay. And we're going to play the audio of the question now. All right. Hi, Dateline team. My name is Riley and I'm calling in from Montana. I just wanted to say I'm a huge fan of the show and the podcast. Of course, Keith Morrison specifically, I'd probably listen to him reading the phone book. My question is for Keith in his promo for the show, Something About Carrie. He says the word macabre and he says it like macabre.

[30:06] And I was just wondering, have I been pronouncing this word wrong my entire life, or is this just a Keith Morrison spin on the word? Either way, I'd love to hear the debate on Talking Dateline and wanted to thank you all for a great show. [30:20] Well, thank you for that. And yeah, I probably just say all words rather foolishly or differently. Maybe blame my Canadian heritage. But cabra, putting the at the end, is something I grew up with. So... [30:36] My mother was always a stickler about pronouncing all syllables of words that needed to be pronounced, only I would frequently get them wrong and still do. [30:46] Thank you, Rachel, and we'll see you on the next story, maybe, with any luck. Yes. See you later, Keith. Thanks. Thanks. [30:53] That's it for Talking Dateline this week. And remember, if you have any questions for us about our stories or about Dateline, you can reach us 24-7 on social media at Dateline NBC. DM us your audio or video on our socials at Dateline NBC or leave us a voicemail at [redacted phone]. [31:16] for a chance to be featured. And thank you for listening. [31:22] you [31:26] Thank you. [31:30] - You might not think about oil and natural gas, but it's a big part of your daily routine. From the soap you used, your toothpaste,

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