When Life Gives You Don Lemon

[00:00] Transform your home in one weekend and save big money at Menards. Protect and enjoy your outdoor living space with Thompson's Semi-Transparent Wood Sealer. It maintains wood's natural color and provides durable year-round protection from water and sun damage in just one coat. Save big money on Thompson's Water Seal products. Our knowledgeable team is ready to help bring your dreams to life one gallon at a time. Stop by your local Menards today. Save big money at Menards. [00:49] Welcome to Pod Save America. I am Alex Wagner. This week I sat down with journalist and newfound [01:00] the Department of Justice brought against him after covering an ICE protest at a Minnesota church. We talked about what those attacks on the free press mean for this political moment and how his move from mainstream journalism at a major network to independent journalism on his own platform has changed how he does the news, a move I am also a little bit familiar with. [01:20] As always, the best way to support Crooked Media is by subscribing to Friends of the Pod, our subscription community, where you will receive more pods like Dan Pfeiffer's Polar Coaster, our growing roster of newsletters like Pod Save America Open tabs, and ad-free episodes of Pod Save America. You should also check out my podcast, Runaway Country. This week, I spoke to Stephanie Villarreal, whose husband has been detained despite the fact that he is a victim.

[01:47] docker recipient and i also got into it with the bulwark's jonathan v last it is a good good good episode you can subscribe wherever you get your podcasts thank you in advance so let's get into it here is don lemon [02:07] I got to say, I am so excited to talk to Don Lemon. I just read the name Don Lemon in the headlines and follow the national news about Don Lemon. But here we have the man in the flesh. Well, not quite in the flesh, but in the Internet flesh. It's great to see you, man. It's good to see you as well. Can I say something? And unsolicited by Alex Wagner, I think that you're one of the best reporters in the business. And I loved your work on the circus. [02:37] while back when you were on the circus and it was just, I loved sitting down and talking to you guys, but I mean, yes, you know, and I love your work on MS now and look, I get you. [02:47] I see you. I get you. Because as they say, the networks give it and the networks take it away. We sure do, don't they? And you just keep moving, reinventing yourself like a real pro and a survivor. So congratulations. Can't knock the hustle. Thank you, my friend. That means a lot coming from you. Yeah. You know, I mean, we're going to get to all that, actually. I'm thrilled. I'm excited to talk about our new tomorrows, our new realities, these great adventures we find ourselves in.

[03:17] Fine, but I look forward to the day when I am unjustly charged with something. We're going to get to that in a minute. I mean, I will say just big picture, Don. Like in these – you know, in the normal times, the full frontal assault on the press – [03:33] The authoritarianism that is so clearly on display where our president is is, you know, effectively trashing the Constitution. He's using the full force of the government against any critics, whether they are in the media or otherwise. He's trying to arrest people who he doesn't who don't agree with him or stand in his way. [03:54] That would be the headline story. And yet it's not. I mean, there's so much incoming. I wonder, as you look out in the landscape and you do this awesome reporting out there in the world, what do you think is the biggest story of right now? What do you is the most important thing that's happening in all this swirl? [04:13] Well, yeah. [04:14] That is a very good question because I think all of it is, you know, it's really, it really is good. I think a lot of it's related. I think the first amendment, the freedom of the press and the war, [04:26] go together, especially if you look at what's happening over at the Pentagon, you look at what's happening with the Department of Defense, excuse me, Department of War, where they are restricting reporters, making them sign agreements that they can, you know, we don't do that. That's one of the reasons that we're in Iran, right, is because they have state-run media and people don't have freedoms and they shoot protesters and whatever. And we're doing similar things here. So I think that altogether...

[04:54] The war and the assault on the press because they don't want people reporting accuracy and what's really happening with the war. You hear Pete Hex said that almost every update that he gives about the war that he says, and this is how you should be reporting it. And then that has that have seep that has seeped into Donald Trump saying the very same thing. You never know that when, you know, if you listen to the fake news. Right. [05:24] him the information that makes the war look positive. So when he looks at the news, the press, which is supposed to be free, and he sees somewhat of a... [05:34] more balanced picture of what's actually happening. It doesn't compute with him because he's like, what is going on? This is not what my advisors are telling me. We're doing great. Look at how much we bond. So I think those are the two things. And I am surprised that it is not one of the leading stories every day, the assault on the press. And my arrest is, [05:54] It's way bigger than me because if they're coming for me, this independent person, they're coming for you. [06:03] But they've already neutered the... [06:05] The corporate media. So I'm surprised that it's not out there. I'm not I'm surprised that it's not a bigger headline because it affects everyone, the press, whether you're in streaming, whether you're print, whether you're a broadcast journalist, whether you're magazines, even publishing. [06:20] And so if they can tell you what you can write, what you can't write, where you can report, where you can report, where you can report.

[06:25] how you can report it, [06:28] then what's the purpose of [06:30] the First Amendment freedom of the press, then what is it? It also just challenges the basic idea of shared reality and facts, right? I mean, if you no longer have, if you refuse to recognize a truth that's inconvenient, then what does a truth matter ever? I mean, it's just information that's weaponized for personal or partisan gain. And that's not a world. I mean, that makes living in a world to say nothing of living in a democracy pretty complicated. I wonder if, [07:00] I totally agree bigger than you. It's meant to send a chill down the spine of any journalist to like the FCC chair coming out and threatening to revoke broadcasting licenses if the coverage of the Iran war is not deemed satisfactory by this administration. Are you at all surprised by how far Trump is taking it? [07:19] I'm surprised at how far we have allowed him to take it. [07:23] Because, you know, the the folks who are on, you know, on the Republican side, the more conservative side, love to talk about free speech absolutism. And this is we're about free speech. And, you know, we can't cancel everybody. We want to say the R word. Right. Comedians should be given a wide berth to be able to do whatever they want and be funny or whatever. [07:53] speak. [07:54] So I –

[07:57] I am surprised. Where are those people now? Where the free speech absolute is now? They're they're they're not anywhere there. I mean, it was never about free speech. It was. Thank you. Right. So I'm surprised at how far he has been able to far, how far we have allowed him to be able to do it. And look, this is the if you really believe in the Constitution, Alex, if you really believe in the Bill of Rights, [08:27] in freedom of speech is if you're a mature person, you understand the importance of the press. And whether you agree with them or not, the reason that this country has been able to, we've been able to get as far as we have with this experiment is in large part because of the First Amendment. People write things about me all the time that I don't like. [08:47] And, but I would fight for their ability and their right to be able to say it. Like there was a profile of me that came out in the New York times, overall positive, everything in there did what did I like? Did I think there were some things that are out of context? I got something. Sure. But overall, I was like, okay, it's fine. And. [09:04] That's it's out there. [09:07] enjoy it. And I never, I didn't even think twice about it for me. It was like, Oh, that's great. I've got a big thing in the New York times or whatever. I thought it was a great piece actually. I don't like it when they're too effusive. Like if they're doing a glowing profile on me, it doesn't really mean anything. I think that they were, that they were critical on some things. I was like, great.

[09:27] That's good because it makes you think. So Donald Trump is not a mature person. He doesn't believe in the First Amendment and in the Constitution because if he did, then he would – [09:38] not be so critical to the press and he wouldn't try to make us have state-run media. [09:42] Well, it's the essential notion of a presidency is you want to be aware of all sides of the debate, even if you don't agree with it. And like that notion of a team of rivals extends to every part of the democracy. Right. Like we're a two party democracy. We're going to be a push and pull. It's never going to be perfect. But it's not about annihilating one side and declaring victory. You've had like just this extraordinary years and it's only it's only March. My God. [10:12] I thought you were going to say it's only going to get worse. But no, I mean, it could. It probably will for all of us, but especially you don't know. I'm kidding. I let's talk about what happened in Minnesota in January. You went out there. I went out there after you. But it was I remember thinking like, oh, boy, everybody who went out to Minnesota after I [10:32] seeing what happened to you, every journalist, I think, was way more cautious, way more concerned about where they were, how they were doing, not because you had done something necessarily wrong, but because of what the administration did. So let's talk about [10:46] you were live streaming a protest inside a church. And so what were you hoping to cover and sort of how did that all come about? Well, as you know, this, this is still going on. So what I will say is talk about it. Sorry. Yes. So what I will say is that I went there. There's no conspiracy, which is what I'm, there's no conspiring. A protest is a protester. A journalist is a journalist. I didn't like, I didn't even know where they were going to go.

[11:16] oh, this is where we are. But I went there with the intention to do journalism and that's what I did. And so as Steve Schmidt said, [11:26] uh, about, uh, what's his name? John Miller, who, you know, now works for CNN and worked for the NYPD for a long time and to work with, with, you know, national law enforcement for a long time, uh, and was a journalist. And he said, when, um, when John Miller went into the cave, um, [11:42] with Osama bin Laden. [11:45] He did not become a terrorist. He was reporting on someone who was a terrorist and that, and, and he also said, [11:53] knew that he was going into a cave and they didn't, I don't, I don't think they had to tell, you know, authorities or whatever, but I'm just saying just because I was in a church, [12:03] with protesters does not make me a protester. And so, and it's just because you don't, you may disagree with questioning people, it doesn't make me less of a journalist that you disagree with my questions. That's kind of what the whole thing is about. So that was my intention. And I wasn't even going to go there. I just happened to be going to Chicago to host the Martin Luther King Day [12:33] to my husband. He goes, you know, maybe you should just take a stop. And I said, yeah, maybe I should go there and just go. I was only there for like six hours, seven, not even that long, maybe six, maybe seven hours. It was extended because the flights were late, you know, snowy and all that. But that was it.

[12:48] I didn't even know the people who were part of the protest. [12:51] They had been on my show like a Thursday before, but I didn't know them personally. I'd never met them in person. Very little communication with them besides coming on the show. Even if you did know them, and even if people were offended by your questions, that doesn't make you any less of a journalist. Do you know what I mean? In defense of that, I know plenty of people that I interview, and that still makes it journalism. That does not disqualify it from being journalism. [13:21] you recognize that there are two sides here. And at one point you're like, maybe they could get together and talk and figure this whole thing out. I mean, it was like the idea that this was somehow that you were inciting people. [13:32] some sort of offensive or wounding engagement that caused suffering and harm is like, I don't know, just as a layperson that watched the journalism that you did, it all seems quite cocked up. And I don't know the degree that you can... [13:53] tell me about this, but we can always cut it out in post if you can't. [13:58] Like the case that's being brought against you is, [14:02] I mean, ironic is not the right word to use. I think it's like designed to be offensive and, [14:10] And it is deeply reflective of of a Department of Justice that likes to use race in a pernicious and damaging way. They are.

[14:23] Charging you with a law from 1871 called the Ku Klux Klan Act. And that historically is a law that's been used to to protect against white supremacist violence. Now it's being used against you, a person of color, alleging you were part of a conspiracy to intimidate churchgoers. [14:42] Thank you. [14:43] As one of the country's most prominent black journalists, do you think that this is a sort of deliberate process? [14:53] play here? Yeah. Look at the people who were arrested. They're black journalists. Is it deliberate play? Yes, of course it is. I mean, everything is calculated with this administration and anyone who is writing or prosecuting this, I feel that they should be embarrassed, especially if they are any sort of person of color or a woman, a minority who's used to being, you know, discriminated against. Did I think about that? Absolutely. I thought about that. That's just [15:23] you [15:23] One of the biggest stains on this country is slavery. And then from slavery, Jim Crow. [15:30] and everything is not, you know, [15:34] It's just because something is black doesn't mean the other is white. Everything is not equal in this country. There were people who are part of a culture or a part of an ethnicity in this country that have not been treated fairly for the the for longer than this. The majority of the time that they that they are we have been in this country. And so.

[15:56] Yeah, I think it's designed that way. Yeah, and it is pernicious. But I also believe... [16:02] that there is a reason that it happened to me is to show, I believe, the hypocrisy of [16:08] of this and the pernicious nature of it will be illuminated by [16:14] because you, [16:15] It's me. [16:16] Yeah. And so at the end of the day, I do believe that I'll come out on the right side of this. And when that happens, I think people will, you know, ultimately realize and I think they're going to be a lot of people who are embarrassed. [16:29] And, [16:30] So I thought about that as I was sitting in a holding cell about people just because they don't like what you're saying or reporting or who you are, that they – [16:42] can take your freedom away. That's huge. [16:47] huge. And I do think that the people who are doing it should suffer some consequences. I think that there is a malicious intent there. [16:56] The nature of what they're doing. It's malevolent. It's, [16:59] malicious. It's evil. [17:02] I would take it one step further. And it's racist. Let me get it. And it is racist. I was going to say, I think this is a really – That's the first part I should have said. This is a really – it's part of a suite of actions from this administration assisted by the Supreme Court. [17:22] To to rent to to, first of all, whitewash America's racist history and the legacy of slavery by saying that the what we're what we're all of the civil rights protections that we have in place are effectively reverse racism against white people and to weaponize the legacy of King to weaponize things like the Ku Klux Klan Act.

[17:43] against people of color and therefore render the idea of disparity and institutional racism sort of moot, right? Like everyone's, no one's a racist. Everyone's a racist. White people are being discriminated against and therefore any protections that exist in our society should be done away with because it's all kind of meaningless. I mean, I think that's the kind of natural endpoint is to effectively turn back the clock and get rid of all the gains made on [18:13] rights in the last, I'd say, 100 years. Like, I really think and using you as a kind of example of like, oh, yeah, see, like this is we need to protect the country. White white church congregants need to be protected from the black menace. Like, don't you talk to don't at us about the Klan and like all the black people suffer. Look what's happening to white people with these black people storming their churches. Do you know what I mean? [18:43] White people feel better about the history they have in the United States of America, but also rendering that history, the real history of America, less potent, less, less malignant. And that's fucked up. [18:57] Well, I'll-- but-- [19:00] The first thing I'll say is, [19:02] I'll let you say that. I'll let you say that. That's what I'm saying. I think it's a very... [19:08] cogent and articulate argument and logical. [19:13] I –

[19:14] I believe not that I'm correcting you. There's no such. Well, there is such a thing as reverse racism. Reverse racism would be equality. [19:22] It's racism. Racism is racism is racism, no matter if you're doing it against an Asian person, a black person, a white person or whatever, whatever it is. So, you know, when people say, well, white people are the victims of reverse racism, like, really? But what is what does that actually mean? And [19:39] If you actually think about it, when as you're talking about black people in America, if you say something is reversed, that means that there is racism for the most part, which is sort of what the definition of what racism is, is against black people in America. And so I think that they should be keen. You understand what I'm saying? They should be keenly aware of that. Acknowledgement inherent in it is is is is discrimination against people of color. [20:06] But it's a trick. It's a trick for power and for political expedience. And so what they're doing is tricking people into being aggrieved that if you are not doing well, let's just say that you live in a coal mining community or you live in some community that is suffering, rather than realizing that you need to be retrained, you got to do, you know, these things happen. [20:36] And now it's all about technology. And unless they start making cell phones out of coal, then, you know, it's going to diminish. And so or and if you're not doing as well as you think you should, because and you see minorities and women who are gaining agency in society, they have really good jobs, they have positions of power.

[21:06] are... [21:07] Maybe not qualified for the position. Maybe you don't have enough get up and go, as they say. You're not motivated enough. You're not ambitious enough. And maybe it's just that, again... [21:19] You're just not as [21:21] qualified for the position as the other person. [21:23] And so I think that's, [21:27] a trick to make you vote for them. Donald Trump is very good. And especially this MAGA, very good at making people feel aggrieved. And that agreed that that and fear are great motivators. It makes people sit in front of the television all day and watch Fox News and go, yeah, that's right. And they're discriminating against white people. And if you ask them really, [21:52] If you think that white people are being discriminated against, ask them, would you change your [21:57] positions. Would you be a black man in this society? Would you be a black gay man in this society? Would you be a woman or a black woman in this society? Most of them will go, well, I all know. [22:07] Because, I mean, quite frankly, white people and white males, I think, haven't [22:11] Pretty good. [22:13] Yeah, I'm going to guess to say a lot of white male Trump supporters not that interested in being people of color to say nothing of the power grid but just culturally. Yeah, but that doesn't mean that there aren't poor white Americans, that white Americans aren't struggling. I'm generalizing overall. [22:28] Well, I think that's part of it, too, is that it's the zero-sum race game. And all of this, I will just say, is explored so brilliantly by my friend Heather McGee in her book, The Sum of Us, which is like the idea of if someone else is doing better, that means you're doing worse.

[22:58] We're like, let's just shut the whole thing down so that we don't have to deal with each other. It just so happens I leaned out of the screen for a little bit because I wanted to pick this up. I did this very similar to what you just said. I wrote about this. And during George Floyd in the member of the summer of unrest, this is a fire. What I say to my friends about racism and what I tell, meaning mostly my white friends about racism. And it debuted at number one in The New York Times. And it was really great. Of course it did. [23:28] was a right time for it, but there's also explanations in there about what you just said and how they are able to co-opt people almost in a cult-like way to believing that if those people, things would be better if we just stopped talking about racism, if we just sort of ignored about slavery, if these people could just pick themselves up by their bootstraps. Have you ever tried to... [23:55] Pick yourself up with bootstraps. [23:58] And especially if you don't have any boots, how you do it. Get into some real boots and try to lift yourself up and see if you can do it. But I'm just, you know, I know it's a term, but it's not a real thing. [24:09] And, you know, so I think we need to like really sit down and talk about and come to an understanding about what this country really is, which is. [24:18] I don't think that we are going to do it as long as there is a Trump administration in place, as long as MAGA and Christian nationalism are front and center in this country.

[24:29] Well, yeah, I mean, just nationalism. [24:31] Yeah, I would say white Christian nationalism. White Christian nationalism. The specific strain of it, right? Evangelicals. [24:47] Pod Save America is brought to you by Z-Biotics. Got to tell you about this game-changing product I used before a night out with drinks. You know what I'm going to say. You don't have to tell me anything about Z-Biotics. It's called pre-alcohol. It's the greatest invention since the automobile? [25:00] I went out, had a few drinks last night. Had a go. [25:04] Because you want to school night. I know. I know. I, I, I had a dinner with a mutual friend of ours to catch up and, uh, [25:12] Three drinks. [25:14] Mm-hmm. [25:15] Pre-alcohol first. Woke up feeling completely fine. Completely fine. Without Z-Biotics, that would not be the case. It would not be the case. You would still be in bed. Z-Biotics pre-alcohol probiotic drink is the world's first genetically engineered probiotic. It was invented by PhD scientists to tackle rough mornings after drinking. Here's how it works. When you drink, alcohol gets converted into a toxic byproduct in the gut. It's a buildup of this byproduct, not dehydration. That's to blame for rough days after drinking. Pre-alcohol produces an enzyme to break this byproduct down. Just remember to make pre-alcohol your first drink of the night. [25:45] and you'll feel your best tomorrow. March is a marathon of social events. From the slopes... [25:51] To the bracket watch parties, Tommy. Pre-alcohol is the tool you need to fully enjoy the end of winter. Go to zbiotics.com slash crooked to learn more and get 15% off your first order when you use Crooked at checkout. Zbiotics is backed with 100% money back guarantee. So if you're unsatisfied for any reason, they'll refund your money. No questions asked. Remember to head to zbiotics.com slash crooked and use the code crooked at checkout.

[26:13] for 15% off. [26:15] Positive America is brought to you by Mint Mobile. I don't know about you, but I feel like keeping my money where I can see it. Unfortunately, traditional big wireless carriers also seem to like keeping your money, too. If you're fed up with crazy high wireless bills, bogus fees and free perks that actually cost more in the long run, then switch to Mint Mobile. Stop overpaying for wireless just because that's how it's always been. Mint exists purely to fix that. Mint Mobile is here to rescue you with premium wireless plans starting at 15 bucks a month. [26:45] largest 5g network bring your own phone and your own phone number activate with e sim in minutes and start saving immediately no long-term contracts no hassle ditch overpriced wireless and get three months of premium wireless service from mint mobile for 15 bucks a month [27:00] $15 a month. That is very cheap. That's a lot less than you see advertised for the big wireless carriers. That's why our pal Nina switched to Mint Mobile. Won't stop talking about how great it is. If you like your money, Mint Mobile is for you. Shop plans at mintmobile.com. That's mintmobile.com. Upfront payments of $45 for three months. Five gigabyte plan required, equivalent to $15 a month. New customer offer for first three months only, then full price plan options available. Taxes and fees extra. See Mint Mobile for details. [27:29] It is worth talking about. After your arrest, the White House tweeted out, When life gives you lemons... [27:40] With a chain emoji.

[27:43] like [27:45] The White House cheering on the arrest of a journalist, a black journalist with [27:50] Slavery chains? [27:52] I mean, did you first of all, ever you know, you've been in the crosshairs of this administration before, right? Like, you know what it's like to be a journalist at CNN to have a big platform. But did you what did that moment mean to you when when that tweet went out? [28:09] If you... [28:10] If you really want to, I'm not surprised. [28:14] And look, I'm a big boy. And what I just kind of shook my head. [28:18] Alex, like, [28:20] But I only think that that made them look bad. [28:24] I think that I do believe – [28:28] I thought that they... [28:31] That was sort of a test to see how that went over. And I don't think it played well in the public. And I think that they after that, they quickly realized it. [28:39] And they, you know, they had, they tried to squash it. They didn't go as far as they could have with it. Um, [28:45] And I do think that they underestimated where the public sentiment would be in this particular thing. Even conservatives saying, okay, guys. [28:53] This is way too far because what happens if they're a democratic administration and they start doing this to us? [28:59] then we're in trouble. So, you know... [29:02] I looked at it and I was like, okay, whatever. I'm not surprised. [29:07] Is it disgusting and racist and inhumane and bigoted and all of the things? Absolutely. But I don't sit there and dwell on it because I have great legal counsel.

[29:20] And all of the things that they have done. [29:23] will... [29:26] pay off in court. [29:28] Can I talk about that? And that's where I intend to fight this. Yeah. Yeah. Because I know that your lawyers, and again, if you can't talk about this, just let me know. But your lawyers want to see the facts that the government presented to the grand jury in order to get the indictment. Because they're saying, we don't really trust whatever facts the government gave to the grand jury. Like, they have a history of, what is it? [29:58] unusual conduct. [30:00] simultaneous to political pressure to bring charges and misstatements of the law at the highest levels of government. I mean, they see this persecution effectively, and they want to see what the government case is for all of this, because they look at what's happening to you. I know James Comey is another person cited as an example of this government, this highly unusual [30:30] that or how optimistic you are that you're going to get more insight into the justification the federal government is using to charge you criminally. [30:38] Well, I don't know what's going to happen within that ruling because that and that this is all public knowledge. This has all been in the public legally, so I can talk about it. So that's what my attorneys filed and they believe that that will be illuminating. And obviously, if they file that, they believe that there is something in there that may show the abnormal the abnormal tease. Is that right? The anomalies abnormalities are the yeah, are the anomalies or whatever.

[31:08] This went to three, it went to a magistrate judge and usually after the magistrate judge is just like, okay, well, that's it. That wouldn't do it. Then they went to someone else and I think that either three and then they went to someone else. I think it was like three different tries or two or three different tries and everyone said, no, we're not doing this. And then they took it to a grand jury. [31:27] And, you know, and they say you can indict a ham sandwich with a grand jury or whatever. You're talking about the government running up various flagpoles. Yeah. Yeah. Various flagpoles until they found something. And I wasn't surprised. I knew that they would try to do it because they just couldn't be embarrassed. So right now, I feel that they're just prolonging their embarrassment. [31:46] So, you know, [31:47] Um, [31:48] So we'll see how the judge rules. And if there's something in there, then I think that's going to be problematic really for the government. And if there's nothing in there, if the judge or if it is deemed that there's nothing in there that it wasn't abnormal. [32:05] then so be it. But still, I still think that, [32:08] It's at the end of the day, it's going to be, I'm going to, you know, end up on top. I'm going to end up the winner in this. I think maybe you already have done. [32:19] In a way. That's... [32:22] I've heard that. Why do you say that? I just feel like, first of all, I mean, I know it's been difficult, and I want to kind of talk a little bit about the arrest part. But it is brought to the fore in such a concrete way, the way this administration is going after people, the inherent racism of its maneuvering. It's given you an extraordinary plot. People are really paying attention to what's happened to you, what's happening to you. And I'm not just saying that from like a business level, but I just mean, you know, your voice is essential right now.

[32:52] than you. I mean, and it, and it's really crystallizes, you know, [32:56] the essence of this administration, which is all of its fascistic impulses, it's the authoritarianism that is, you know, the order of the day. I mean, in that way, it has been [33:08] a victory for people who've had a hard time really pinpointing the malignant nature of what's happening right now. Although, of course, you're still facing trial. So let's talk a little bit about what's happened to you. First of all, were you freaked out by the fact that you're an independent journalist? And there is some safety, like being part, as someone who used to work at MSNBC, now MSNOW, there is some safety. There's like a whole bunch of lawyers that work for [33:38] They just say, we'll take the lawyers will take care of this. And you just go, okay, you show up for whatever it is. And exactly. And you didn't have that, right? Like you do have incredible representation, but were you, were you scared? [33:51] Initially? [33:53] Um... [33:55] About like before or after or just like as it's happening, you're like, oh, they're going to I mean like this, this, they charge you while you're in Beverly Hills, I think. Right. And like you will. Maybe you knew this was coming because Trump was telegraphing all of it. But like when it first happens, are you like, oh, God, like I got it. I'm on my own here. [34:13] No, I'm... [34:16] Alex, I am... [34:19] As Dr. King says, I'm not fearing any man. I don't fear that kind of thing. I am lucky and fortunate enough to have some agency and the ability to be able to fight this. And there are people who cannot. There are people who cannot pick up the phone and call Abby Lowell and say –

[34:36] Will you represent me? [34:38] And so for those people, [34:40] That's where out of this process, I've learned more and and become appreciative of the. [34:50] The folks who are able to do this like myself and there's a greater understanding of what people some people cannot do this because I know it's a very expensive process. It's a very taxing process. And so people are all the time, even by this government, maybe they don't have the resources to be able to do it. But I'm very fortunate somewhat. It's really I mean, that doesn't mean that, you know, I can afford to go the distance with the government, but we'll see. Was I angry? [35:17] Was I scared? No, I wasn't afraid. I was the only time I was a little bit startled when they grabbed me in the elevator because I thought I was being mugged. [35:26] This is when they first are charging you. Yeah, when they finally did. Now, before that, they were saying that they were going to do it. Yeah. And – [35:36] I'll let you, I'll give you something that nobody else knows. Is that before that, there were people who were parked outside of our, [35:44] home in New York City and would follow us when we got into the car. And I have never said that to anyone. And I don't know who they were. [35:53] But usually people don't follow me. A, you know, a group of cars don't follow me when I'm going to eat dinner with my friends or when I call an Uber or whatever. And so that was a little bit unnerving and like the nerve, like the nerve. Even if you if you have if you have not gotten permission from a judge or a court to be able to detain me, then you shouldn't be able to follow me.

[36:21] You know what I'm saying? You should not be able to follow me around. So that was a little, you know, innocent until proven guilty. And then once that happens, OK, let's do it. So it was some there was there was frustration in that. And when I said it was a little startling, but there was some frustration in that this would. [36:39] This was all so unnecessary. [36:42] Because the reason I wasn't afraid is because I had people who are in the business and they're saying they said to me, we're hearing your name a lot. You know, they're speaking, you know, from folks who are in power. So maybe it's time for you to get a war room and maybe you should reach out for some representation. And I did that. So I felt like, OK, if this does happen, then I, you know, I'll be taken care of to the extent possible. [37:03] that I can be taken care of. But it was also unnecessary. It was a waste of resources, a waste of tax dollars, because the first thing my attorney did was send them a letter saying, if you are serious about this, then let us know. Let's get this process started. He will self-report and turn himself in. [37:21] Nothing. [37:22] Instead, whatever, 20, 25, whatever people show up, [37:28] And it's like, why? If you would just call me and said, I would say, okay, I'm jumping in a taxi. Give me the address. [37:33] I'm going to come down. But it's a waste of tax dollars. They... [37:39] Did it because they want you to be afraid and because they want to embarrass you. I was neither embarrassed nor was I afraid. [37:48] And on the other side, I realize once I come out of this, I have a story to tell and I have a platform, whether people are on my side or not, whether I have public support or not.

[38:00] I'm going to fight this to the end and I'm going to do it in a courtroom and I'm going to stand up to you and I'm not going to be afraid and I'm not going to stop doing what I do because – [38:09] I'm a citizen of this country. [38:12] And I have a First Amendment right, not only for freedom of speech, but for freedom of the press. And if there's anyone who is... [38:23] deserving of all the rights and privileges that go along with this. [38:29] Thank you. [38:30] Thank you. [38:31] If there's anyone, there's someone who... [38:35] whose ancestors were, [38:37] came here [38:39] Involuntarily. [38:41] Yeah. And who has faced. [38:44] discrimination and racism and whose ancestors came over in chains. And so I believe it's me. [38:54] I believe it's people like me. And for those people, that's why I'm standing up. They're not going to silence me. I'm not going to be afraid, no matter the outcome of this, no matter. [39:04] Thank you. [39:05] I'm still going to be here, still doing my thing. [39:16] Pot Save America is brought to you by Blinds.com. If you've ever thought about upgrading your window treatments but didn't want the hassle, Blinds.com is here to change the game. They're the only company that lets you shop custom blinds and shades online that backs it up with professional in-home measure and installation services. At Blinds.com, you can skip the stress and get expert design advice through their convenient virtual consultations on your schedule. They're on a mission to make custom window treatments easy and affordable for everyone. Get the same quality and service you would at other high-end stores, but at a fraction of the price. Samples

[39:46] materials right from the comfort of home to help make the perfect selection. [39:50] Blinds.com carries everything from bamboo shades to shutters, outdoor shades for your patio and more. All Blinds.com orders are backed by their 100% satisfaction guarantee. If you're not happy, they'll make it right. Blinds.com has been around for 29 years and has covered over 25 million windows, making them the number one online retailer of custom window treatments. Right now, Blinds.com is giving our listeners an exclusive $50 off when you spend $500 or more. Just use code CROOKET at checkout. Limited time offer. Rules and restrictions apply. See Blinds.com for details. [40:20] It was never in question whether Dawn Lemon was a shrinking violet, right? Like that's never been your brand, right? Right. [40:30] But I kind of wonder, you know, you and I have both made the move. [40:34] From establishment media to independent media, right? Me from MSNOW, you from CNN. We won't go into the circumstances of those departures. You're still there, though. You still have a big voice. Yes, I go and hang out with my buds on set sometimes. [40:49] But, you know, I'm not working. That's not my home anymore. And CNN isn't your home. And you have built a new home for yourself and an extraordinary one at that. I wonder, you know, how that transition has changed your approach to journalism and like the way. First of all, let's just say right up front, it is a hustle, right? Like it is full on.

[41:19] You're working harder than I am. But like, do you think that, that, you know, being out there being, you know, who you are in this new media landscape? [41:28] changed you and made you more tenacious and especially in moments like, you know, when the Trump administration is coming after you? [41:36] Um, yes. [41:38] Yes. [41:39] Now, I always felt... [41:41] You know, I've always been tenacious. Yes. But I also think... [41:47] I don't want people to think that I'm criticizing. I'm not. But I think there needs to be more people. [41:56] Like me. And even if you are afraid, you need to fight through that fear and stand up for the [42:02] the press stand up as a journalist. I believe that the folks who are in the White House press court need to stand up more. They need to do what Richard Engel did with Benjamin Netanyahu the other day when they killed his mic, when they muted his mic. They need to continue to ask the question even as Caroline Levitt is calling on another reporter. Wait a minute, this is serious, right? They need to continue to ask the question when Donald Trump is being rude. And when Donald [42:30] Everyone in that press corps on the plane should should say something. Yeah. And if and not not ask the next question, they would say my colleague who you call a piggy, which is, you know, the president of the United States. I'm surprised, sir, that this actually came out of your mouth. My question is her question. So I have so I believe that people should be more tenacious. I believe that journalists and I've always believed this. Maybe I'm naive. They're like doctors and lawyers do no harm.

[42:58] And the way to do no harm to the public is to fight for the, [43:04] fight to have them educated, [43:06] to be informed, [43:08] And to stand up to power. [43:10] Yeah. [43:11] And that's what we're supposed to do. So I think every journalist in this time should be doing that. And even the journalists who are in corporate media. And I know it's I know you're worried about, you know, you got to pay for your kids private school. You got to do all these things. I get it. [43:24] But I think if more people stood up to the corporation, to the conglomerates, to the powers that be, to the gatekeepers – [43:33] I think we would be in a better place right now. And especially the people, even more so than the journalists who are sitting at the desks or out in the field, who are in war zones, even more so the people who are assigning them to these positions, who are putting them on the anchor desks, who are deciding who gets to be on what program they should be standing up to the powers that be as well, because that's what journalism we're supposed to do without fear of favor. We're supposed to do it. We're supposed to hold power to account. Otherwise, [44:02] then you get a dictatorship and authoritarianism. So I've been surprised by, and especially my exit from CNN, I was surprised by how... [44:13] Many people... [44:16] lacked [44:18] the courage to be able to [44:21] say the right things and do the right thing. And how many people were just, just wanted to, um, [44:27] Survive.

[44:29] And if you're a journalist, you can't just want to survive. You have to you have to want to protect the Constitution and you work for the American people. [44:38] not for the government and actually really not for it. [44:42] The company, you work for the American people. [44:44] I feel like it's like your essence is in full flower. Like you are destined for this. Like you're out there. You're like, you're out there. I mean, you're out there. Do you think I'm nuts though? Because am I naive? It's what the moment demands. I mean, but the other thing, the thing that I think people, you know, if you are a lemonhead, you know this. But like one of the things that really does set you apart is you're out there talking to people on the streets. You're like moving around. Yeah, all the time. After this, I'm going. [45:12] Which is why do you first of all, as someone who loves field reporting, I think it's like the essence of journalism and we've completely lost it in in mainstream institutional media. Why did you decide to do that? Why was that important to you? [45:24] Because I noticed that there was a disconnect between what I was hearing on sort of the mainstream. I hate that term, mainstream media. But that's what it is, between what I was hearing. And I also know when I did, the reason that I became an independent journalist is because I could have done something else or not done anything at all. But the reason I took the path that I'm taking is because I wanted to be closer to the ground. [45:51] I wanted to be out there with people. [45:55] And during the 2024 election, when I started just going out doing man on the street interviews, which I think are really important because most interviews are man on the street. If you go to breaking news and you're talking to people that were there for the breaking news, that's man on the street, right? And that's actual, that's journalism. And when I started talking to people during the 2024 election, I started hearing a lot of Trump.

[46:17] I like Trump and from demographics that I didn't expect to hear it from. And it was eye opening and illuminating to the response that I got that. Well, to hear it, considering what you are, you know, sometimes what you hear on the news and then the response that I was getting from different news organizations, like some of the liberal folks and even people who are liberals. Why are you doing this? [46:40] Are you curating these things? I'm like, no, I'm just, this is just, I'm doing it. And then on the right, come on our show. Oh, or, oh, this wasn't the answer that Don Lemon wanted. This guy owned him. And I'm like, no, that was the exact answer that I wanted, whatever their answer is. That's the answer that I want. And guess what? If I was embarrassed by it, dumbass, I'm like, [47:04] I wouldn't put it on the internet. I wouldn't put it out on my channel or on my social media if I was embarrassed by it. And if I had any sort of fear or was embarrassed by what people are going to say to me, people who may not like me. I know that there are people out there who don't like me. I get it every once in a while. Most of the people, you know, I like you or whatever. And there are some people who are like, eh. [47:24] So I actually go out and I do an IRL in real life live. [47:29] I do man on the street live and not everybody's in love with me. And I put that out there too, because I, [47:35] That's real. That is real. And that's what being transparent is about. And so really, it's not about me personally. And I'm not embarrassed by it. Okay, fine. So, you know, that's why I did it. Yeah, that's why. And I think that maybe I guess that's why I'm successful. If you see me that way, I'm too close to it. I don't know what success and what isn't in this whole streaming thing. Well,

[47:58] What I've noticed is, first of all, in the new media landscape, [48:03] when you break out on your own, so much of it is actually about your personal resonance with the audience. And there is a much more intimate relationship between your audience, people watch you in new media than there is, I think, in broadcast. Would you agree with that? Or I don't know. I mean, do you feel like it's the same? [48:19] Do I think more people watch me in new media? Well, do they do? I feel like they have a more it's a closer relationship. Like, I mean, like, I bet I'm sure lemon heads as a concept existed while you were at CNN. But now it's like a bonafide, like subscription tier people wear the sweatshirts like it's a thing. And that seems to be, to me, at least unique in like new media that they want that connection. [48:49] whatever. [48:50] More than anything, I think, is that they want authenticity. Yeah. And they want people they trust. And if I just happen to be a familiar face and someone who had been out there and in their living rooms long enough for them to know me and I gained trust from that whole CNN experience. [49:20] the same person that I am in my everyday life. And I think that that resonated with people, didn't necessarily resonate with management all the time.

[49:29] But if they were smart, they would lean into it. And even some of the things that were like, oh, my God, I can't believe you said that they should. I believe that. [49:37] Journalism organizations should lean in and have a conversation about them. [49:41] And say, but this is what you do. But they're afraid. Oh, my God, we can't do this. What are the advertisers? The audience. So I think that it's authenticity is what people want. And they want people they trust. And they also want to feel connected. [49:57] Thank you. [49:57] When I first started doing this, it was... [49:59] a different thing that I was going to do. And then I realized, it's like, you know, what I'm doing is very similar to what, kind of what I was doing at CNN. No interaction with my audience. It feels canned. And I'm just going to sit, [50:11] In my living room, [50:13] And do a show every day called Live at Five. [50:15] where I just talk to the people and do the stories they want and sort of give my, you know, point of view. [50:22] And it worked. [50:23] Because that's what people want. And so now, as you were saying, it's a thing because people feel that they know me and they can trust me and that they are actually a part of. [50:33] something. So what I did was build a community rather than a channel or a program. And I think people were looking and are looking for community in this moment, but they're also looking for people who are flawed, for people who are outspoken, for people who are not perfect, for people who are tenacious enough to stand up to authority, even if it's from the highest office in the land, or stand up to someone on the street, or be vulnerable enough to let someone

[51:03] them live or taped. And so it's for me, it's just that's what it's about. And it's not really about me. [51:11] Because if it was about me, I wouldn't I wouldn't. [51:14] invite people into my life and I wouldn't invite the criticism that I get just for being so transparent. Well, you may not think it's about you, but people who watch you want it to be about you. I mean, I think they want Dawn. They want to be Lemonheads. I think they want those things, but then I'm the one who's giving them those things. So yes, I'm... [51:36] Yes, but I don't think it's just about me. But maybe I don't know. I don't think your ambition is just to make it about you. But I think that because it's you, people – [51:45] are attracted to it. They want it. Even the people that are paying to insult you online are paying to insult you online. You know what I mean? Because I know you made note of this, and I think it was a Times piece. If you're making a nasty comment, you're paying to make that nasty comment. So bring it on. I mean, that's me paraphrasing you. Yeah, it's true. I know you addressed this on your show on Wednesday, but I do want to ask because we're talking about the sort of what broadcast is trying to mimic. And there's been a lot of [52:15] of like the sort of podcast universe. And CNN is trying to emulate the style of a podcast using Jake Tapper. And I know Fox News has a sort of similar model with Will Kane. What do you think when you saw that? What did you think of it? [52:32] Well, I talked about it. I have to say, I just have to be real. I can't be fake about it. I know. That's why they're lemon heads. But the initial thing that I said, I thought it was a compliment to my colleagues who I think are the best in the business, the best journalists in the world. And so I was saying that they don't need tricks.

[52:56] People trust Jake Tapper because it's Jake Tapper and he's credible. People trust Anderson Cooper because he's Anderson Cooper and he's an iconic journalist. [53:07] And he's built his name and his brand on being out there in war zones and dodging bullets and moderating debates and holding people accountable. 60 minutes like that is crazy. [53:20] You know, that's some high level shit. And so I, you know, they can do what they want to do, but I don't think that they should be trying to make their anchors into podcasters because they're. [53:33] Their anchors are anchors and they're in this elevated, vaunted position because of that. And I think they need to own that and should not diminish the not only the anchors, but those three red letters that mean so much to people around the world. And so it's not a I'm not. [53:50] you know, um, [53:52] disparaging them. I'm saying maybe... [53:55] This ain't it. [53:57] I'm going to just take it one step further. They shouldn't be trying to be me. If they want podcasters, Alex, hire some podcasters. Well, MS Now is putting Runaway Country and Pod Save America and Crooked Media on MSNBC, which is another way to sort of retrofit it. But if you're talking about authenticity, you can't retrofit authenticity. It has to naturally spring forth from most of the person and the place. Like you naturally, authentically have come to the position that you're at and you speak the way that you do.

[54:27] you are who you are, not because someone was like, Don, let's try it in your living room. And why don't you wear these glasses with this picture in the background? You just are doing you. And that's what that's what works. And I mean, I you know, the other piece of it is the tech part, which is it's going to be really hard to convince a 25 year old to get a cable subscription. Like there's just a fundamental fucking reality about who's consuming podcasts and what they'll [54:57] gravitate towards and linear cable and broadcast in general. I'm not saying this is a good thing for the news industry because I do think there's some utility to having newsrooms and authentic anchors with lots of experience, but the trend lines are not in that direction. [55:20] Pod Save America is brought to you by Fast Growing Trees. Did you know Fast Growing Trees is America's largest and most trusted online nursery with thousands of trees and plants and over 2 million happy customers? They have all the plants your yard or home needs, including fruit trees, privacy trees, flowering trees, shrubs, and houseplants, all grown with care and guaranteed to arrive healthy. Whatever you're looking for, Fast Growing Trees helps you find options that actually work for your climate, space, and lifestyle. Fast Growing Trees makes it easy to get your dream yard. Just click order, grow, and get healthy thriving plants delivered to your door. [55:50] Guarantee promises that your plants arrive happy and healthy. No green thumb required, just quality plants you can count on. Plus, get ongoing support from trained plant experts who can help you plan your landscape, choose the right plants, and learn how to care for them every step of the way. Fast-growing trees is great because you don't know what kind of trees and shrubs your yard needs. And you don't know where the shade is and the sun and how much water. Right, how to keep them alive. I've killed many a plant in my day, unintentionally, of course. Yes.

[56:20] unintentionally. They had it coming, but yes. Yeah, right. But fast-growing trees can actually help with that in a really effective way. I speak from experience on this. Right now, they have great deals on spring planting essentials, up to half off on select plants, and listeners to our show get 20% off their first purchase when using the code CROOKED at checkout. That's an additional 20% off better plants and better growing at fastgrowingtrees.com. Using the code CROOKED at checkout, fastgrowingtrees.com. [56:46] Code crooked. Now's the perfect time to plant. Let's grow together. Use crooked to save today. Offer is valid for a limited time. Terms and conditions may apply. [56:58] You know, I must ask you because CNN is on the verge of being run by the Ellisons. [57:04] And we see what's happening at CBS. We see Barry Weiss mismanagement of CBS, a place I used to work. [57:12] It has had the worst ratings they've had this century, Donne. [57:16] Barry Weiss is shepherding the worst ratings in CBS's history this century. I'm not surprised. [57:24] Do you hear from people inside CNN? Are you worried for CNN? You talk about those three red letters that mean so much to the world over. Yeah. And... [57:33] I mean, look, I loved I loved CNN. I think CNN is obviously those three red letters. They do mean a lot. Right. That there's credibility there. And again, I'm not. [57:44] I didn't like my exit. I thought they treated me poorly on the way out, but I'm rooting for them. [57:49] I'm rooting for them not because of the management, because it was ultimately them, but because of my colleagues who are there who are working their asses off, who are great journalists. And I don't believe that the people in positions of power and the gatekeepers are doing them any better.

[58:04] Justice. [58:05] And so that's where, you know, that's sort of where my... [58:10] But I'm not surprised that CBS has his worst ratings, and I will tell you why. Because in this time that we're living in that is so unusual, when you have such aberrant, [58:24] behavior by the highest people who are in the highest positions in the world and the highest office of the land. And where you see that there's no truth to what they're doing, where they turn an insurrection into a walk in the park, where they exonerate. [58:39] And pardon the people who broke into the United States Capitol and smeared the [58:44] VCs on the wall and peed on the wall and beat up police officers. Um, when they are, um, [58:51] I can go on with a whole litany of things. And so when you try to, look, if you want to try to move a network to the right, when they say they want to move the network to the center, first of all, where is the center? [59:04] Where is this? Tell me if you find it. When you find the center, let me know. I just believe that there's truth to it. And sometimes the truth may be on the liberal side and sometimes the truth may be on the conservative side. But in this in this particular time that we're in, if you say I'm going to move the network to the right, people think you're going to move it to MAGA and it's going to be about disinformation and lying and racism and misogyny, because that's what this is about. This is the wrong time to try to do that, first of all. [59:33] And secondly, you don't try to move or change a network ideologically, a news network ideologically, because that's not what journalism is. Look. Yeah.

[59:43] CNN tried it. [59:45] They lost their core audience. There was no payoff for them, for the core audience. And kind of what they're doing now, there's no payoff for it, except if people are wondering, what the hell is going on? This is just like a sort of another whiplash moment for the people who are watching CNN. So I believe if CNN goes down the same road that CBS does, then they're going to need a miracle to get out of it. So I'm not surprised that they had their lower ratings, [1:00:15] They don't want false equivalents. They don't want people coming on just to lie. They don't want people who are being just booked on shows just to fight. There's nothing productive about it. People want the truth. Some things are objectively bad. And much of what the MAGA administration, Donald Trump administration is doing is objectively bad for not only people, but for the country and for democracy. [1:00:40] And people want that reflected, the real world reflected on the news when they turn the news on, whether it be on broadcast cable or even in streaming. [1:00:51] I got to just on that last point. I'm done. No. No, you're not. [1:00:57] Because I have to ask you this. Candace Owens is always, I think, in the top 10. She's always ranked in the top five on Apple News podcasts. Does that worry you? I mean, because I'm with you on people want authenticity. But I think people have been lulled by a lot of these MAGA personalities that they're the truth tellers, that they're the ones that actually have the readout on what's up, what's real.

[1:01:21] point because you're never going to, I'm not talking about the MAGA folks. That's, that's a cult. Those people have, the people on the right have cult-like fans. Yeah. [1:01:31] and viewers because it's just the nature of conservatives. Maybe they felt like their voices weren't heard for so long and they actually got into these streaming places. They were pioneers. So that's one reason they're doing so well. But- [1:01:46] The people who listen to Candace Owens are they're not going to I'm sorry, they're not going to watch the CBS Evening News. [1:01:52] They're not going to watch CNN. They're going to watch Megyn Kelly. They're going to watch Candace Owens. They're going to watch Tucker Carlson. They're going to watch people who are preaching their gospel at every single turn. And if you want to be a news organization, if you want to deal with facts and, as you said, shared reality, right, we talked about that, then you're going to be a news organization. [1:02:12] you're not going to watch those and not because they're bad. It's just because, [1:02:17] They're truthful and balanced if you do it right. [1:02:21] But if you try to move it to the right, they're not even going to watch that because they don't trust that. And that's actually not where the news is going right now. They're going to watch Fox News. [1:02:29] Thank you. [1:02:30] And they're going to watch, as I said, all the other people and the Nick Buentis of the world and all that. That's what they're going to do. [1:02:35] I'm just it worries me, though, that they are seen as I mean, you're saying forget forget it. They're part of a cult unless you're going to like what is it when you get someone out of a cult deescalate? No, what's the program program? They need to. I don't look at those people as journalism or journalists. I look at them as influencers and streamers. I'm talking about the people who do what what I do, what pod save does, what the bulwark does, what.

[1:03:05] Sam Sater does. People who are bringing information and have a shared sense of reality, but then they have... [1:03:14] Some swag. [1:03:16] Right. Then they they lean into it. They have their the editorial has teeth. You know where they're coming from. Right. You don't expect to see someone calling. [1:03:29] uh, insulting a black woman to her face about, uh, [1:03:35] about a Barack Obama and a Michelle Obama tweet from the president where he depicted them as apes. And then you're going to have someone come on and go, that's not racist. And then you're just like, [1:03:47] Of course it's fucking racist. Why, why are you doing this? It's racist. And so, you know, I'm not talking about those folks. I'm talking about a place where that us who are doing this now are and have success in it, that we're coming from a more factual, informative, truthful place where we don't try to say, well, this is the middle and that's right. And that's left. Sometimes my my subscribers don't want to hear what I'm saying. [1:04:13] But I tell them, look, [1:04:14] I know you probably don't want to hear this, but here's the truth. And then at the end of the day, they'll say, thank you for informing us. [1:04:21] I may not like it, but thank you for informing us. [1:04:24] So that's what I mean, then that is an important distinction. I mean, look at the success. Look at pod says success. Look at Brian Tyler Cohen's success. Yeah. Look at, you know, it's, it's, and these people, I don't believe that they are, um, they may be some of them left leaning and that's okay. They're transparent about it, but at least they, there are, there are facts and a shared sense of reality. And they're not saying, well, uh, the first lady of France is a man.

[1:04:53] Nobody's saying that on the lap. Outrageous shit like that. You know what I'm saying? So... [1:04:59] It's not propaganda. And I think that there's an establishment, there's an established sort of baseline of truth and the pursuit of, you know. [1:05:09] Reality. I will ask you, my friend, before we let you go, two things. [1:05:15] Hopefully you like both answering both of these questions. You are... [1:05:20] I mean, I just it is like there's it's not a coincidence that I'm talking to you the week this massive profile comes out about you in The New York Times. Like there's national interest in what you're doing, the fight you're fighting against the Trump administration. You've always been in the public eye, but this feels like a different level. Right. Like you're you're in as they say. This is why you're a great reporter. I know where you're going. But you're in your power. Dare I say you're in your prime. [1:05:46] And I wonder, I'm giving you a chance, like, has this what you're doing now? And, you know, I'm not trying to air out anybody's age here, but like, this is not the normal, like sort of metabolism, the normal career arc that we see, right? After you've been in the game for some decades. Like, has it changed your idea of what it means to be in one's prime and when that happens? [1:06:16] I think that that whole thing about not being your prime, that was misconstrued. And the one thing that I, that if there was one thing that I could, um, I,

[1:06:26] That bothers me the most of anything is that whole thing. When I said, if you go back and look at it, I said, I'm not saying that I believe that. The whole point of it was that that is how society treats women. And someone who has been treated or discriminated against should know better. If you have been, especially with the way the Republican Party has treated her, they're like, we don't want her. Right. We don't want Nikki Haley to be president or whatever. I think Democrats, plenty of people like have a hard time with women over 40. [1:06:56] Women have a hard time with women over 40. [1:06:59] Exactly. But that was that's how society treats women. And you should know better. So you shouldn't be an ageist when someone has been sexist or misogynistic towards you. You should have more knowledge than that. And I think people understood some people understood when she's like, you know, what was the Civil War about? It wasn't about, you know, slave. She said wasn't wasn't she didn't say it was about slavery and then other things about. So when that came out, some of our ideas were just. [1:07:23] not, you know, for the prime age. But it wasn't necessarily about that. I thought that about women. I don't. [1:07:32] I think the exact opposite. I think women are the smartest and strongest of the sexes and the, [1:07:39] Every show that I had at CNN was run by a woman. [1:07:44] And our motto was, if you want something done, hire a woman. We hired all mostly women. I had finally at the end, I had one. My personal producer was a man, but every single pretty much person on the show, my lead writer, woman. And I grew up in a family of all women. So that is that's the one thing that bothered me is because that people took that out of context. I could have been a better communicator about it since that's what I do for a living.

[1:08:14] But that's not... [1:08:16] what I meant. And I told them that I think they understood it. And you know, you know how that works. Right. So, so, um, so what I will say is that do, do I think that, uh, I'm in my prime? Absolutely. [1:08:29] Of course. I'm not delusional. I'm not, you know, I can't run 10 miles and not die anymore. But, you know, I need more sleep. I have to think about people's names. Like, wait a minute, what's that? Oh, that guy. And it's like, [1:08:45] It's your husband. His name is Tim. Oh, yeah. So I'm not delusional. But yes, I do think that because of that. [1:08:53] I surprised myself in what I've been able to do over the past two years. [1:08:58] Yeah. [1:09:00] Do you think you might ever run for office? [1:09:04] oh boy that was a long pause done uh i hear that all the time uh-huh yeah and then what do you think what happens in your head when you hear it [1:09:19] First, I hear I don't want to ruin my life. Why would I invite that sort of even more criticism or whatever? I don't. Why would I want to ruin my life with people digging into everything about me and and and campaign ads, putting everything that I've ever said that's deemed controversial? But I don't even think people would care about that. So I think I think they would. [1:09:41] They would know. Right. I've never said that I was going to grab anybody by the pussy. Right. So that doesn't surprise me. But I've never said that a woman had blood coming out of her wherever. But yes, also, I'm not a white man.

[1:09:56] And the rules are different for me. And so just like the rules, I believe, sadly, are different for women. They're different for Hillary Clinton, for Nikki Haley, which was one of the reasons that I that, you know, what that I what I meant to say they're different for Kamala Harris. [1:10:26] and [1:10:27] you know, my... [1:10:29] the people [1:10:31] who my mentors will say, why do you want to take a pay cut? [1:10:36] But it's not about money for me. [1:10:38] So do I ever think about it? Yes. Could it happen? Yes. [1:10:43] Yeah, it could happen. [1:10:45] If the opportunity presented itself, the right opportunity presented itself. Look, if I wanted to, I know people are going to think I'm crazy. This is going to be the headline and people are going to laugh about it. I think I could be president of the United States. I could definitely run this country better than – [1:11:00] than Donald Trump. Paper towel roll could, but yeah. Yeah. You would do a market improvement. As an independent, though, there would be a hard time for me to run for anything because the way the system is set up, I'd have to choose a side. And so I probably would have to become a Democrat. And yeah, so am I at that point now? No. And I know people are going to say, Don Lemon is crazy. But yeah, look,

[1:11:29] Why can't I think about running for office? Why can't I think about being president of the United States when, you know, [1:11:35] Look at what we have when anybody did anybody think Barack Obama, as he says, this guy with a funny name is from a mixed background. Did anybody ever think that he would become president, that he had that aspiration? I don't have an aspiration to become president, but I do think that I could run this country a lot better than Donald Trump. You know what else I think that I could run better than most people? And I was talking actually talked about to my husband about that last night. Please tell me. [1:12:00] A news organization. [1:12:02] Because I was there, I'd been in the game for so long, and I'm not interested in being, you know, the anchor out front. I could come in and fix the bulk of their problems and lickety split in no time flat. [1:12:16] Boom. Wow, I feel like we're making news. The Lemonheads merch is about to get [1:12:22] Become collector's item. Yeah. So I'm busy now. I'm building my own channel and I'm building my own network and we'll see where that goes. But if I had to, like if they dropped me into a news organization, I could I could. [1:12:36] fix it up i could clean up the place don lemon is ready to conquer the world ladies and gentlemen you heard it here first i can't wait to see the headlines about the president part oh god bless you for launching your presidential run on uh pod save america we appreciate it that would be the perfect place to run and i forgot i mean look at also too you're definitely running as a democrat if that's the case my friend and i forgot about midas so yeah i totally well that's why i'm saying

[1:13:06] your bread is buttered. Don, I knew it was going to be excellent to speak with you, but you've, as usual, exceeded my conception of what was even possible. Well, thank you. I'm sorry that there are certain things that I can't talk about legally or whatever. I think you delivered, Don. I really think you delivered. You think so? I hope so. You gave me big time. You definitely did. Yes, but go out, journalists. [1:13:34] Be bold. Be tenacious. Talk to people. Be unafraid. Go talk to people. Be unafraid. [1:13:39] Unbothered and unafraid. [1:13:42] Just like Dawn. [1:13:44] Thank you, my friend. It's great to talk to you. It's great to have some time with you. And become a subscriber of the Don Lemon Show, YouTube, Twitch, Substack, Instagram, TikTok, Facebook, wherever you get your streaming, Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and iHeartRadio. [1:14:01] There are many opportunities. Like and subscribe. Go and love Don. Thanks, dude. Thanks to Don Lemon for coming on the show and breaking news. It's always a pleasure to have you, Don. John and Levitt will be back in your feed on Tuesday with a brand new episode. See you all soon. [1:14:19] If you want to listen to Pod Save America ad-free and get access to exclusive podcasts, go to cricut.com slash friends to subscribe on Supercast, Substack, YouTube, or Apple Podcasts. Also, please consider leaving us a review. [1:14:31] boost this episode and everything we do here at Cricket. Pod Save America is a Cricket Media production.

[1:14:36] Our producer is Saul Rubin. Our associate producer is Farrah Safari. Austin Fisher is our senior producer. Reed Cherlin is our executive editor. Adrian Hill is our head of news and politics. The show is mixed and edited by Andrew Chadwick. Jordan Cantor is our sound engineer with audio support from Kyle Seglin and Charlotte Landis. [1:14:54] Matt DeGroat is our head of production. Naomi Sengel is our executive assistant. Thanks to our digital team, Elijah Cohn, Haley Jones, Ben Hefcoat, Mia Kelman, Carol Pellaviv, David Tolles, and Ryan Young. Our production staff is proudly unionized with the Writers Guild of America East. [1:15:08] . [1:15:13] . [1:15:18] you