Down Goes OKC! Spurs-Knicks is Here! What the Hell Just Happened? And What Does OKC Do Now? | With Zach Lowe

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[01:37] Right now. [01:39] and play your game. [01:40] 21 plus select states are 18 plus DC, Kentucky or Wyoming. If you have a problem, call 1-800-GAMBLER. Call [redacted phone] or visit ccpg.org slash chat in Connecticut. [01:51] Bill Simmons podcast live on Netflix. [02:21] - Hello, Lois here. [02:22] on a beautiful Saturday night. We just had an awesome... [02:25] Awesome game seven. My favorite game sevens. [02:29] are when it's not just a series at stake or maybe even the title at stake, but I feel like there's [02:35] real big picture basketball shit going on. [02:38] Like era shit, legacy shit. [02:41] changing the guard type stuff. And it just felt this way from the beginning. And eventually we'll remember it as the Luke Cornett chase down game. [02:50] That was it. [02:51] It's the Cornette game. [02:53] Lock it down. Biggest play of the game. Luke Cornett, much maligned the entire series. Now, where do you want to start? I mean, that was incredible. [03:01] I... [03:03] I want to start with what you just said about [03:06] you know, Torrico punctuates the game. It's Wemby's world now.

[03:10] And it's absolutely remarkable to, [03:13] that the Spurs are already here. [03:15] They're so young. [03:16] And look, they've been a clear championship team for a while now. The experience thing didn't bother me. It didn't limit their chances to me. But when you see them all embracing after the game, all the young faces, they're so young. The joy they have and Wemby's crying and all this. It's like they're already here at the pinnacle. And we are... [03:37] what is it right now, May, five, four months removed. I mean, it was really not until those December games, starting with the Vegas tournament. They played three times in like 10 days. [03:45] Until San Antonio won those games, the story of the season was, [03:50] Is it going to be 73 wins? Are they going to be maybe the greatest regular season team of all time and have the greatest two-year run of all time and start of a dynasty? And the Spurs eviscerated that in a 10-day span in December, started this series with a remarkable win on the road and end it with a remarkable win on the road and go into the finals with De'Aaron Fox looking healthier, Dylan Harper looking healthier, and Wemby at the top of the league. And yet, you use the phrase changing of the guard, Wemby's world. [04:20] I already want the 2027 Western Conference Finals to start because there's going to be a lot of talk about what is Oklahoma City going to do in the wake of this crushing defeat, their title hopes dash, this rising phenom that they and nobody else has an answer for. What I want in my basketball fan soul is run it all back. Jalen Williams, you were injured. We're running it back. Chet, we got a lot of Chet talk to do.

[04:50] us, whatever you want to do to come back stronger. Where did Dirk go? Yeah. The remote parts of Australia. Yeah. And just, and just come back and say, you thought it was a changing of the guard. We're coming right back at you again with the same core group that we had tonight. But these two teams going back and forth is awesome. And for the Spurs to be here is absolutely incredible. [05:12] Wow, you just chewed up a lot of storylines there. Let's get, but there's, that was great. Let's start here with the Spurs though. [05:21] Young core teams that make the finals, this just basically only happens once a decade. [05:26] 77 Blazers, 86 Rockets, 95 Magic, LeBron and the 07 Cavs. [05:32] 15 warriors, sort of. [05:36] Curry's like six years in at that point. [05:39] We had the 87 Mavs almost, the 93 Sonics almost. [05:44] Um, there's been some almost, this is like the youngest, craziest run. Even the 86 rockets seem more conceivable to me. [05:52] than this. And then they go down 3-2. I picked the Spurs before the series. I genuinely thought they could win. After game five, I thought it was a wrap because of, [06:01] Because the Fox... [06:03] And because of Harper, they just didn't look right. Harper looked great in game six. We were texting before the game. Tell them what your prediction was before the game. Well, I mean, I said Fox was going to have 15 points on six of 14 shooting. I thought I basically said he's going to have a good game, not a great game. You were worried that he was going to have. I was worried for the 0 for 11. Yeah. Yeah.

[06:25] Cataclysmic. Like, is it already time to trade him game? And I was like, I like the shots that he was getting in game six. And I was like, I think he's just going to have a good, fine, productive game. [06:33] So what did he end up with? [06:35] He was... [06:37] I think you nailed the prediction. 15 points on six of 12. You nailed it. You needed to miss two more shots for me to get it exactly right. All right. So here's what I jotted down. [06:46] From the everything we would want from a game seven standpoint. [06:50] We had two fantastic teams. Yes. [06:53] with two tremendous stars that I, [06:55] I think played really well. And I want to talk about SGA in a second, but [06:59] Both of those guys were awesome in that game for different reasons. And you had two fascinating career moments for those guys too. You have SGA. [07:07] You talked about it with Goldsberry after the game six. Like, eh. [07:11] We're throwing his name around with some pretty legendary guys from the last 75, 80 years. It would kind of be nice if you had a better series. Could we ask for that? And he was lights out. And then you have Wemby going on the road. [07:23] Down 3-2 in a series. [07:25] battling foul trouble. [07:28] We get down the stretch. I didn't feel like NBC, I thought NBC did it. The crew did a good job today. It was the one time where... [07:35] I felt like they should have been losing their minds that Wimby got that fifth foul so fast because he got four and then all of a sudden he had five and it's like, [07:41] Oh my God, there's seven minutes left. [07:43] Is he going to foul out? What are they going to do? Are they going to take him out? So we had that. And then we had the Chet. [07:49] self-combusting piece. [07:50] which we have to get into too. But Zach, I thought, [07:55] This game had pieces. I had three series written down. The 81 Celtics Sixers, which were the last time two awesome teams played in a game seven like this. They both had 62-plus wins.

[08:05] Same kind of chaotic rugby type game. Bulls Pacers... [08:10] With OKC in the Bulls in 98, OKC in the Bulls spot of... [08:15] Down six, down eight, down four, down eight again, down two, down eight, just kind of trying to scrap back and getting into it. [08:24] And yet the Bulls came back and won and OKC did not. And then the other one I had was the 2016 Golden State OKC game, ironically. And that was in Golden State, but... [08:34] OKC, just the shots, they just couldn't get good shots. [08:38] Like you even think about like all the offensive rebounds that in the first half and then Wallace like saving them down the stretch. [08:44] But the offense, the non-SGA offense was so hard for them. So explain it to us. What happened? Well, I mean, Jill Williams and A.J. Mitchell are hurt. That's part of it. And you take those guys away and it's like, oh, my God, we're real short on creators. And honestly, when SGA didn't come out. [08:58] at the end of the first quarter. Did you think he might play all 48 minutes of the game? Because I did. [09:03] Well, there was two panic things. He ended up, I think, 44 minutes. That was one. And the other was they came out to start the third quarter and, [09:11] They had Wallace out there and J. Will and Caruso. And it was like, oh, we're... [09:16] Dagnall's doing this now. He's worried this game's going to get away. So there was definitely... He's calling timeouts. I felt like he was... [09:24] desperately trying to hold on to this game. They did some interesting sub stuff too with the centers, especially in the second half where I think they, he was kind of realizing maybe I can't rely on Chet. [09:34] admit I'll start him in the third quarter, but I'm also going to have Hart and staying in as fast as I can if he's not there. But ultimately, that's why they lost. I don't want to do the.

[09:43] Monday morning, first take, just blame a guy. He didn't step up, send him to Siberia. But [09:49] I voted for him, I think, third team All-NBA. He was the number two defensive player of the year. [09:57] And he didn't want to shoot. And it got to the point, Zach, where they were throwing him past him. He wasn't even catching passes clean anymore. Like he was as far in your head as you can get on a basketball court. Would you have sat him or would you have stuck with him? I think without – I think if they had more options, they probably would have sat him. And then they sat him late for McCain when it was almost too little – [10:17] Too late. [10:17] Um, yeah, [10:20] Yeah, I mean, there's just, first of all, SGA was everything you would ever want him to be in a game where I think there was some actual, like, career-defining pressure on him after six in a series. Like, a scintillating game of shot-making. He had the one annoying jump sideways into Devin Vassell. But when you get a guy airborne, the benefit of the doubt is going to go to you. When a guy bites at your pump fake so badly that he's flying in the air, you're probably going to get the goal. I thought you couldn't go sideways on that, though. [10:50] You shouldn't. It's inconsistently officiated, but it doesn't matter. He played an absolutely brilliant game. Wemby played a brilliant game. To me, the series changed in Game 4. [11:02] when they stop double teaming Shea. [11:04] And that was, I think you and I did a podcast after that game, and I said that there's a little whiff of like – [11:09] I didn't really make this comparison, but it was the first thing that came into my head of when the Warriors in Game 4 of the finals in 2015 went with the death lineup and started Iguodala. And you could sense like, oh, the terrain of this just changed in a way that is not going back into the tube. I thought not trapping SGA changed the whole series, made his life difficult, made the Thunder's offense life difficult. And I talked to Goldberg. I had a checklist for what does Oklahoma City need?

[11:36] to win game seven, even at home, because the Spurs had been the better team through six games. And the checklist was, there were three things on the checklist. They got one. I said they needed two. One was a good Shea game. They got a great Shea game. Two was they're going to need a really strong... [11:51] three-point shooting performance from the role players. I'm not counting 12 of 35 as checking that box. I think that's like 34%. They need it better than that. They were like 29% before the end of the game. And then the third one was they're going to need to force a lot of turnovers and get out in transition. And the Spurs, again, won the turnover battle tonight. That's been the story of the series since Game 2. So they only got one out of three. I would have thrown in offensive rebounds for there, which they were getting in the first half. And then it just flipped in the second half. [12:21] He ended up with 15 offensive rebounds. He had four at halftime. Well, and I'll tell you, Dylan Harper had two... [12:27] And both of them led to baskets. And both of them were the result of Oklahoma City messed up a rotation at the top of the arc. And the guy from the corner had to panic rotate up at a shooter who was left open by mistake. And both times, I think it was Harper both times, the corner guy crashed and got huge rebounds. And let's do like Chet. Let's do SJ and Wemby first and then we can talk about Chet. [12:53] So to finish the SGA thing, [12:56] That was one of my favorite games I've ever seen him play. [12:58] Because I felt like, first of all, worst possible team for him to play, right? Where they have... I think it's just the worst possible team for everybody to play. Like, that's just... This is what this guy is now. He's the worst possible guy to play if you're an offense first player. But they...

[13:15] But they also had a bunch of perimeter guys who seemed pretty comfortable at least trying to stay in front of him. They were trapping him really smartly. And he was just solving it for two hours. And – [13:26] I didn't think he was doing a lot of the flop stuff. I thought everything he was doing was just like really smart scoring. He made a couple of threes, uh, [13:34] And it felt like, wow, if they win this game... [13:37] This is going to... [13:38] I know he won two MVPs in a row and he won the title last year, but this will be like the defining game that I'm not positive he's had yet. The first game you would point to. And then he just ran out of gas. And Reggie and Jamal, who I thought did a good job tonight, [13:51] They noticed it right away. They noticed he started bailing on the passes and stuff, but that's about as well as he could play. Finished with 35. [14:00] But as you said earlier, [14:01] You don't have Mitchell. Now McCain's taking up most of that Mitchell minutes and playing really well, but Jalen Williams was... [14:08] That was it. Because Jalen Williams would have allowed them to go bigger, smaller. He would have been the second creator. And they just... [14:14] You could really feel it today. They didn't have that second guy. Yeah, and you mentioned the big man stuff. I think what they concluded was... [14:21] And you could see them trending this way the whole series was – [14:25] We cannot play another big man with Hartenstein because there's just not enough shooting and dynamism on the floor. But we do want to have as much size as possible because Wemby is just so dynamic at the rim. We need a second layer of rim protection. So we would like to play two bigs. The only two big combination we have left that we have any faith in is Jalen Williams and Chet Holmgren. They just completely separated into those two in the second half.

[14:55] big man who can play with a traditional center that's the whole point of him and he he ended up averaging like 10.5 points per game in the series and was completely invisible the entire game and you never want to read too much into one game but when you play like that in this game that matters a lot and is going to have some lasting effects that he and the team are going to have to get together and figure out like how do we not have that ever happen again because [15:25] acceptable performance of a guy from a guy of his caliber. The whole series was leading to that. And this was the low point. [15:31] I got this email a few times before... [15:35] Game seven. [15:37] And I wrote down because I had a feeling we'd be talking about this. But Joe from Pennsylvania wrote, I have no dog in this fight. But if you're an OKC fan, would you be worried that Wemby is taking Chet's soul? [15:47] who wrote this before game seven, [15:48] Um, [15:49] Ben Craven wrote, do you see any parallels between what Wemby is doing to Chet and what Jordan did to Drexler? [15:54] Greg in Toronto wrote is Chet vs. Wemby the best modern example of two generational unicorns where the mere existence of one completely robs the relevance of the other? Chet deserves praise for not ordering a Tonya Harding level hit job. [16:10] on Wemby? [16:11] um i mean we don't know what's going on we're not watching the post game right now this should all be happening now there could be the tanya harding hit jump could be it now shane stan is he out of prison um [16:22] So, [16:23] Here's the thing. [16:25] I don't see how this gets better.

[16:28] And it's going to open up over when Giannis. Wow. We're talking about Giannis again. Giannis is going to go in the next three weeks. And it does make me think like, OKC, who felt like their window was the most limitless window possible. [16:40] And now all of a sudden they're like, holy shit, we couldn't even make two finals in a row? [16:44] with this unbelievable setup we had. [16:47] Do you start that? I just feel like Chet and Giannis, that's going to be mentioned for the next 72 hours. And it's not Presti style to do a trade like that. We should say. So it's not. And I do think you have to zoom out a little bit and say, [17:00] minus two of our most important players, [17:03] We took a team to Game 7 who is... [17:06] a great great like these were two great great basketball teams yes it's not as if you can come away with this sort of like we've just fallen hopelessly behind the rest of the league and like things have caught up to us i i think you would probably take the long view you blame the injuries they i just think you take the long view like we're not we're not far away we're going to learn from this that's what i said at the beginning i want i want a vengeance narrative to come i want the thunder to come together and say no no it's still our time it's still our time with this core we just weren't up to it this time we're going to learn from it and get better next time [17:36] And about Chet, [17:37] First of all, after this performance, how much more does Oklahoma City have to throw in to entice Milwaukee? And you have massive second apron issues for the Thunder. They can't aggregate contracts, so it's not that easy to do. They're going to be the most – one of the most, if not the most expensive teams in the league ever. We're talking about that later really quick. But, like, how much – how enticing is that to Milwaukee? But it's not like Chet.

[18:02] So it's disturbing that they concluded Chet is offensively, like, can't play next to his center by the end of the series. It's just not working. He's not doing anything. He's not even looking at the rim out open. But how about why couldn't he have done what J-Will did? J-Will was the spacing center that Chet has been for his entire career. What happened? But not only that, like, so he just can't really play center at all in this matchup. You can't put him at the five as the only big man on the floor and have him screen and roll to the basket [18:32] He's also awesome at, which is be giant and tall and screen and roll to the basket. You can't have him guard Wemby pretty much ever. Like you're that terrified of putting them at the five and having him guard Wemby in this series. It's just, right. There are just a thousand red flags around Chet after this series. And it's just, he's going to have to dig deep and they're going to have to dig deep. And cause this, this rival, this, [18:52] is only going to get better in the next three to four years. Well, you're doing the Tim Connelly... [18:58] I've now taken over Minnesota. How do I create the team to beat the team I just left? [19:03] And if you're OKC now, [19:06] You went from, we want to have this long window, we have these picks, and you're going to have [19:11] we're going to try to figure out how to navigate everything, build around these three guys, use all our draft picks to maybe move up, move around to drafts. [19:19] to now like, [19:20] How do we beat Wemby? [19:22] Do you look at number 12? There's a Michigan center who's seven foot three. Do you try to trade up and get them? [19:29] Do you try to trade Chet for... [19:31] brianis or evan mobley do you i don't even know and then the other question would be

[19:36] Should you even be panicking about Wemby? Because nobody has a guy to guard Wemby. It's not like there are other teams in the league who are like, we have our Wemby stopper over here. There's not going to be a Wemby stopper. They did the best job you're going to do. I think for me, I think it's much more toward that second poll that you outlined. There is not going to be a silver bullet answer. In fact, I think if there is one, it's more shooting. I think they were a shooter short in the series, and it just made it easy for him to rove around and just patrol the paint and be on the baseline. [20:06] And, you know, they're like Wallace had a good game for them tonight and is a decent shooter. McCain is an up and down three point shooter. I just think they were Caruso teams are like had a great series. What was he? One of six on threes tonight. Almost dunked on Wemby. That was exciting for about for a second. Hurt his wrist. I think if I think if there is an answer, that's the answer is just we got to get as much shooting as possible and have faith in our defense around it to round it out. [20:32] This was their issue last year, and it didn't really rear its ugly head, even though they didn't play in two seventh games. But that was the oldest thing you always would look at the threes. The games that got blown out this series, they sucked from three. They were moves they could have made. [20:46] during this season. [20:48] With all the picks and all the young players they have. You know, there were people sitting around. Like that, like... [20:55] Who knows when Trey Murphy is going to get traded? That was the name floating around my head as I was talking. [21:01] Yeah. And maybe that's a move they make. That's another thing is Trey Murphy. We assume he's probably getting a trade over his next three weeks. I think Boston is a possibility. We thought whoever lost this matchup was a possibility. There's a couple other teams, but you know, you have two, three weeks to trade for somebody like that. Um,

[21:18] We'll talk more OKC later. Let's... [21:21] We'll take a quick break. [21:23] And we're going to come back. And we've got to talk about Wemby and just everything we saw in this series and what that might look like against the Knicks, too. [21:30] This episode is brought to you by Duluth Trading Company. Whether it's the 19th inning, the 12th quarter, [21:37] or the fifth and a half shift over time, [21:40] Not going anywhere. [21:42] which is why Duluth builds hardworking gear for folks [21:46] who work their butts off. Their surefire arsenal of work shirts are built for function and comfort, giving a big foam middle finger to all that is futile. [21:55] And the new No Quit Utility Shared is equipped with cooling and wicking tech, oh boy, to keep you comfortable. [22:02] All while being tough enough to take down your most daunting, [22:06] tasks. When it's marathon work session versus you, give no quits. [22:11] Shop at a Duluth store near you. [22:13] or at Duluth Trading. [22:15] dot com. [22:18] Victor Wambidyama. [22:20] 22 years old. [22:22] If you're going to nitpick his performance in the playoffs, you might say... [22:26] Protect the defensive boards a little better. [22:29] Um, [22:31] Maybe take your time on doubles. [22:34] Try to figure out how to get closer to the basket. [22:38] I don't know. That's all I got. He was fucking awesome. He was a maniac. There are no nits. There's no picking. I'm not doing it. Everyone wants him closer to the basket all the time. And I think the people who screen that all the time, even though some of them are ex-players, and I certainly am not, are underestimating how...

[22:56] fatiguing it is to throw yourself at the basket. [22:59] over and over and over again when you're skinny and you do what he does on defense and just how hard it is like the days of just throw the ball into the post and post up and back down have been over for like 25 years and the reality is his games are like he broke through the other night and he took nine threes I think and his jumper was on again today and he made that step back over Jalen Williams on the left wing I almost fell out of my goddamn chair it's always going to be a mix and that's okay and he's [23:27] defensively, [23:28] There are just no words anymore for what this guy is doing. I mean, I said it with Goldsberry, and I've wondered where this game ranks. Five of Oklahoma City's nine worst offensive games, points per possession, going into this game tonight, were against, for the whole season, playoffs included, were against the Spurs. Like, it's just a weapon that no one has an answer to yet. [23:47] You know when you really noticed it? When he would come out of the game and SGA was like... [23:52] When I let Murph out in the backyard, he just runs around. And Shane was like, he's not out there. You could just see, like, the hop in his step. It's like, oh, my God. Hey, look. That's what the rim looks like. You led with it almost as a joke. [24:04] I do think that Cornette block, if we're going to talk about the Wemby on the bench minutes, [24:09] I mean, that was, if he finishes that fast break, Hartenstein, or passes it off to Wallace, because it was kind of a two-on-one, that makes it 97-93. Wemby's in foul trouble. Crowd's going crazy. Instead, it's a block, and I can't remember who ends up scoring at the other end to make it 99-91.

[24:28] Just... [24:29] It was a castle. It was a castle jumper. That... And they're... [24:33] Their transition defense the entire series was just balls to the wall. Oklahoma City just could not convert in transition as consistently because everything was contested. The rebounds were contested. Like credit to Spurs. That's the kind of urgency it takes to beat a team like this four times. And like that Cornette, that Cornette block was amazing. [24:53] Maybe the moment of the entire game. I don't know, but it's up there. [24:58] Well, there were two moments when it felt like OKC was going to make a run, and that was one. So it's 97-92, 6.48 left, Wemby has to come out. [25:07] And then there was that other one when it was – [25:12] I'm going to say it was like two minutes left. Wallace hit that second three. [25:16] And then San Antonio inbounded the ball. All this stuff's blending together. [25:21] And they just decided to run the let's throw it to Wemby play. Oh, yeah. Door took it away. Door took it. [25:27] And, you know, [25:28] OKC just couldn't convert, but it felt like, oh my God, this would be the classic young team falling apart piece. But I listen to. [25:37] I really respect when somebody knows how to handle themselves with five fouls because they brought him back a minute later. He came back with like over five minutes left. [25:45] And the announcers were talking about it. I agreed. Like, I'm just going at him and trying to get that. [25:50] that sixth one. And there were a couple times it felt like they could have attacked him and [25:54] And they just didn't. So there were a couple of things San Antonio did even in this game to try to

[26:00] try to get him a little more open. A couple of times they just put him in the corner and, [26:04] And created space, basically left him on one side. [26:08] And had him not really back down, but he was at least 18 feet where he can go toward the paint with his right hand. So maybe trying to think what stuff the Knicks will try to do against them. [26:18] Now, the Knicks have that Mitchell Robinson finger thing. [26:21] I assume who's going to play, but who knows? They'll have Towns to throw at him, who's a dumb foul waiting to happen all the time. Other than that, who are they going to be able to – like OG would be the other one, I guess? Ananobi guarded him quite a lot. I rewatched all the games this weekend to prep for – A little Josh Hart, maybe? Split second or no? Josh didn't guard him much. Josh guarded Steph Castle a lot. OG guarded him a lot. Probably Towns and Ananobi and Robinson. And then there's like random guys who are in these games because they're regular season games. Like Huck Portie comes in and whatever. [26:51] I think we'll see a little bit of... And that is where the Harrison Barnes swap out of the starting lineup for Champagny, who was absolutely nailed in this game tonight. Looms large because when the Knicks would play around like that and put Ananobi on Wembenyama, Harrison Barnes was the guy that they would be like, all right, Kat, just stand in the corner with Harrison Barnes and that's safe for you. And that doesn't really... [27:13] exists anymore. But the Robinson, I just want to flag it now. [27:18] I think he's a massive deal in this series because one of the other things I've come to believe watching Wemby is everyone searches for like, what's an answer? Is there an answer? Is there a player? And like I said, I don't think there is one. There's no individual player. I think shooting is an answer. And I do think an elite offensive rebounder and lob catcher.

[27:38] Someone that he's got to think about. [27:41] Like if I try to block every shot and even I'm going to miss some, am I going to get punished on the other end of it? Or is there a lob threat? And I think Mitchell Robinson, obviously in the Vegas game, he had like a thousand offensive rebounds. I think that player type is a really important player type against the Spurs. And like they then if they don't have Mitchell Robinson full throttle, I think that's a bigger problem in this matchup than it would have been against the Thunder. [28:07] I wrote, [28:08] Anytime I watch a game like this, I always write down in the second quarter, [28:12] in bold, the guys who... [28:16] I think I trust in the game. [28:19] So for the Spurs, I had Wemby, Castle, Fox, Vassell, Harper, and Champagny. So it's six guys for them. [28:26] And that was before the Kelden Johnson renaissance in the second half, right? They had seven guys. [28:31] really show up in this game, not to mention Cornette, who had the biggest defensive play. [28:36] For OKC at that point. By the way, I just want to point out, that's basically all seven guys who played in the game. The other three guys played six minutes, three minutes and three minutes. I felt great about all those guys. [28:48] OKC, I had SGA, McCain, Caruso, K. [28:52] And then I had iHeart question mark and J Will question mark. [28:56] And those were the only five guys I had for OKC. Now, I didn't have Wallace down. Wallace came on in the second. He didn't really play as much in the first half. [29:04] Um, and while I should have been on there, maybe I forgot to write him down, but, um,

[29:08] But it's interesting, I didn't have Chet [29:10] And I didn't have Kelden Johnson. And Kelden Johnson, who I thought really wasn't [29:14] Good this series. [29:16] But then in the second half, he had some big offensive rebounds. [29:20] He had a couple big threes that there were a couple of no, no, yes threes. [29:24] And had the red kind of energy. [29:29] Whereas from the OKC standpoint, Dort was that guy for them last year. [29:35] He would give them energy with defense, with just kind of veteran stuff, and he just wasn't – I didn't feel like he was the same in this playoffs. Look, I think it's not second-guessing. I am certainly – I was not alone said after game six. I don't think you can start Dort and Holmgren and Hardenstein again in game seven because you're just getting bolt-raced at the beginning of every game. Would you have started Harper and Baylor Shireman? [29:59] But I, again, I said after that game, I don't know... [30:05] Like we always say chest, not checkers. I'm not sure what Missoula was playing. I think he was playing Bible that night and it neither, neither chest nor checker. It had been some Bible. Um, [30:13] I just couldn't believe he started that lineup again. To his credit, he pulled Dort real fast and put Caruso in, and the damage was not as severe as it could have been. But, like, every time... [30:25] The Thunder got there were two times the Thunder took the lead. [30:29] And when they took the lead, it felt like they had gotten to the top of the mountain. And boy, what a relief. And just instantaneously, the Spurs would go on like a 9-0 run to say like, no, no, we're going to retake control again. The first one is at the end of the first half when they finish on a 7-0 run right after the Thunder took the lead. And I think there was another time in the second half. And just like that's so impressive to take that punch, to have the crowd going like that.

[30:52] Four-point lead, three-point lead, whatever it was, and just instantaneously, like, oh, an 11-0 run just happened. And it's not just they're ahead again, they're in control of the game again, and they got to fight back again from 7-8-9 down. It's just, like, sensational responses by the Spurs. [31:07] Fox especially, I thought, had a couple big boy moments. [31:12] Right when the momentum felt like it was shifting against him and he had some old school... [31:17] Did he win Clutch Player of the Year? [31:19] Thank you. [31:19] He might have. I don't know. For the second, he was like, who knows? He did. No, he did. I think it was the beam team year, which was the first year they had the award. I don't have my clutch player of the year by year thing framed yet, so I'm not able to look at it. But it was the old school. Fox ended with 15-5. He had three steals. [31:36] And I thought he did an okay job anytime he was on SGA too. Like when... [31:41] I don't even really know who OKC was trying to switch SGA onto because it felt like every single guy was at least – [31:48] passable with Wemby behind them. There wasn't like a [31:53] like a black hole type person. If we've done it, the next series, it would have been Brunson. It ends up not mattering because it doesn't matter of the guy that's, uh, that's behind him. Like you said. Yeah. Um, [32:04] So Champagne hit. [32:05] Six threes. [32:08] And it was interesting. They didn't close with Vassell. [32:11] Um, [32:12] He was on the bench, I felt like, for most of the end because they were playing Harper, who we have to talk about. Oh, man. [32:20] Listen, man. [32:22] I've talked about it before, so have you.

[32:25] 20-year-old point guards... [32:27] Doing this on this stage on the road is unheard of. This is... [32:31] Yeah, I'm trying not to use the word generational. [32:33] But we're talking 1980 Magic Johnson. [32:37] at age 20 in the finals. And we're talking Derek Rose and that both Celtics playoff series, 20 year old point guards are a mess. [32:44] They're like freshmen in high school just trying to remember what their locker combination is and just trying to survive the day and remember where the classrooms are. [32:53] They're not supposed to be running the offense. He had that one when we backed down. [32:58] I can't remember who it was. He backed him down, did the footwork thing and kind of stopped. I think traveled. It felt like it might have been a travel, but somehow ended up pulling. But I just we're going to have 15 years of that. [33:09] I thought that was such an important game for him because now, you know, the Knicks – [33:14] That atmosphere is going to be even crazier. It's the finals. The spotlight's a little bigger, but I think they know with him. He seemed healthy to me, too, the last two games, which is the big thing. Yeah, bounce back. His bounce is back. His power around the rim is back. He tried to do that crazy dunk, too. [33:29] Yeah. In the fourth quarter, which was probably a mistake, but he was like, I'm going for it. Yeah. I mean, they killed some clock before, but again, I was surprised that he just went for it. But I'm also not because he thinks he's going to pull it off. And imagine if you do, you just I think Chet Holmgren would have just broken into like 10,000 pieces and that would have been the end of him. And like, I don't know what you I just don't know what would have happened. [33:51] Portshed. [33:53] This is really going to be a tough one for him.

[33:56] Harper, Castle, Fox together. [33:59] This was the dream when you got Fox. [34:02] When it's like, we'll have these three guys. Sometimes we'll even be able to play them together. This will ease Harper into this. Fox on a bigger stage, on a better team. Fox is in Sacramento in Chicago. [34:13] Would you call them in our over-under pod? [34:16] The Hindenburg or the NBA? I said they were heading for a Hindenburg-level season. By the way, we have a De'Aaron Fox, Mike Brown. We got off the Hindenburg reunion coming up in the finals. We have a reunion for them. But Fox gets out of there. [34:29] And the ringers, Rich Paul smartly puts him on Wemby's team, which was, I think, a good move. [34:35] And this couldn't have worked out better. I mean, you guess where else he could be? On Sacramento. [34:43] With Russell Westbrook and DeRozan and... [34:46] waiting to see who they pick, how they're going to fuck up the seventh pick. So you have that. [34:51] Castle was... [34:52] I thought he was incredible the whole series. He's 21. It's not like he's 10 years older than Harper. The defense, when he had the four fouls, I was nervous for them because it's like, I don't [35:03] know if you can survive if he's out of the game that long. I don't know. What has he become? [35:08] What is Castle in five years for you? [35:11] Who is he? I mean, an all star for sure. A multi who's the doppelganger who like, who is it? [35:18] I mean, you have to think who's a big physical guard who gets by with brute force and passing creativity around it. And by that time is probably a more reliable jump shooter than he is now, although he shot the three well in the playoffs. I'm trying to even think of who...

[35:33] plays with the raw power and like, [35:36] ferocity that he has. He plays with a hatred of the guy in front of him. I just want to beat the shit out of you and go upright in your face. Yeah, he was tired of Caruso after seven games. I think he had enough of him. I don't know. No one is coming to my mind as a great [35:56] guard wing doppelganger for him. [35:59] It's somebody that definitely belonged in a different era and decade. [36:03] I think he would have been really happy in 2003. [36:06] or 2004, [36:07] being in like those Pacers Piston Series, but yeah, I don't [36:12] I don't really know even who to compare him to. Like a meaner... [36:17] Is he taller than Dwayne Wade? Like a meaner... [36:21] More aggressive, more powerful Dwayne Wade? I don't know. [36:26] It's like a Dwayne Raid crust with Alvin Robertson. I'm going to go back to the 80s. Alvin Robertson. [36:31] Um, [36:32] So anyway, you have that. [36:34] You have this Cornette sign in that they do that was really smart. They played the Celtics perfectly and then [36:40] Cornette, every time Wemby comes out, they lose the Cornette minutes. And at some point, [36:44] I had a couple of people in my life who liked the Spurs. They're like, what's up with this cornet? What a stiff. I'm like, he's not a stiff. [36:50] Cornette's a good backup. This is just for whatever reason, can't get it going this series. And then finally was able to hold the forward a little tonight. But what's interesting about them going forward, they have the Wemby extension this summer regardless, but they can still kind of dabble and make this team better. I don't even know what you would do because you always want to base this stuff on who do we have in a game seven that we trust. And we just went through it. I'm seven guys I like. Yeah, they have small windows to do small to medium things. The big things are

[37:20] at it a little bit too and I didn't think too deeply about it because the series was still going on there it's not nearly as like financially dire as what's about to hit the thunder um [37:30] Thank you. [37:30] And they have the Carter Bryant piece, too. Like if he emerges, Keldon Johnson expiring next year. But if Carter Bryant becomes that perfect, like defensive, physical banger who can also hit threes and play next to Wemby, that's kind of what they need. Well, the Keldon Johnson one is a big one, because if they end up having to keep him at what a fair rate would be for a guy who just won six men of the year, they love him and maybe they will. [38:00] Champagny, they have a team option on him next year for nothing, for $3 million. They get pretty expensive if they keep everybody together. But again, they have windows now. And by the way, we should, we always do this thing where we... [38:12] We, the collective we, everybody, points out when a team like the Rockets were the first team that we talked about like this. The Pistons have gotten a little flack for it. Like, well, they had all these trade assets and they did nothing at the trade deadline. And look how it came back to haunt them in the playoffs. The Spurs did nothing at the trade deadline and they have a lot of assets. And everyone, I think, thought they were going to do something at the trade deadline. And they didn't. And they're in the finals. So sometimes it goes the other way, too. I was OK with them. [38:39] Because I felt like... [38:41] It was probably a year ahead of schedule. They needed to taste their own butt in the playoffs. As it turned out, they didn't. No, they're drinking everybody else's blood. [38:50] But yeah, it's just like, let's take a year and see what we have because that's like,

[38:54] What Sam Presti would have done, for instance. [38:57] But as it turned out, it turned out to be an incredible move. And they have a bunch of picks too, like, [39:02] they're going to be able to have some maneuverability. So how many Knicks fans in your life have, [39:07] We're texting you over the last 48 hours asking you who they should be rooting for in this game. Oh, just because I had every single Knicks fan I knew was like, what do you think? Who, who should I root for? And I'm like, [39:19] If I'm you, I don't want to play Wemby in the finals. That's the way I would root for. So it's funny. I said this with Goldsberry. I just think you just have to say I don't care because the easy answer is like the answer they default to is the Spurs because we beat the Spurs twice, including in the cup. And we looked pretty comfortable against them. We killed them at home in March. And the thunder of the thunder. I'm like, I just don't. The Spurs have risen to the level where there's just no great answer here. They're both bad answers. [39:49] and A.J. Mitchell is hurt, I think the Thunder might actually be the better answer, because I don't want any part of these guys. But they're just – [39:57] They're just excited. And honestly, weirdly, a lot of them were... [40:02] A lot of my Knicks fans, friends and acquaintances and people I run into were rooting for the Spurs regardless because they're just fascinated with Wemby. And they have a lot of people really just have bought into even casual fans have bought into like the flopping with Oklahoma City drives me crazy. And I just don't like the way they play. Like Knicks fans were there. They're just like, you know what? Let's let's have some fun with Wemby. It'll be it'll be fun at the very least.

[40:25] I am delighted that we don't have to talk about flopping anymore. [40:30] Thank God. Thank God that's over for content. And the most fun possible series... [40:36] Was Nick Spurs. [40:37] Even though the basketball historian side of me was like, man, OKC, you know, [40:41] going through wars to try to win two straight titles. Like that would be really meaningful. That would put them on this whole other... [40:47] level, but [40:49] Nick Spurs is the most fun series. And if you're the league, this is like the, this is the all time wet. The only other wet dream. If you're talking wet dream finals, [41:00] It's this one. [41:01] It's 2016 LeBron rematch against the 73-win Warriors coming off the Klay Thompson-OKC game. [41:08] It's the 2010 Lakers-Celtics season. [41:11] Rematch. [41:13] Right? [41:14] Those are the three wet dream finals for the league. And this might be number one, honestly, out of everything we mentioned, because you have the revival of the Knicks. You have 53 years and generations of fans waiting for this forever. And you have Wemby, your next guy, the guy who's... [41:30] ready to replace LeBron and Curry as, as the guy in the league already here. [41:36] Um, it's, it's like what we had in 2007, except the rest of his team is actually good. [41:41] when it was Spurs-Cavs, and it's like, LeBron's here! Yeah, but he's... [41:45] playing with guys that have no chance against this first team, this is different. Like, Wembe could actually win it. And I feel... [41:52] I feel like we have some history with Wemby too now. And I think the Olympics was really important with that.

[41:56] We've... [41:57] Even though he's young and he hasn't been around and he missed half of last season, I still feel like I've [42:02] seen him in some basketball games. Like he doesn't feel like a shiny new car to me. He can't to you, right? We've been watching him for a few years now. We've been talking about him as arguably the best player in the league for five months now. Like he's here, he's been in big games. The international stuff was big and, uh, [42:18] NBA Cup. [42:19] Yeah. And this is, you know, um, [42:22] Another finals without any of the sort of older generation players that have carried the league for a long time. And it's the first, I think, well, I mean, depending on what you how you perceive of Shea or whatever. But obviously there is a guy like everyone. Everyone is fascinated by women. People who have watched two basketball games the entire year and kind of half watch them while drinking in the suite somewhere at MSG. Like can't wait to watch this guy play. [42:48] on a big stage. He did a thing today in the fourth quarter. [42:52] It was like halfway through the fourth quarter. [42:57] Dylan Harper, maybe even like four minutes left. Dylan Harper ended up with the ball, and he kind of lost it around the foul line. All of a sudden, there's a fast break. [43:04] And the OKC had a two-on-one. [43:07] And they end up throwing it in the left corner to McCain. [43:10] And Wemby was hustling back. And he's on like the three-point line. [43:14] but somehow challenged the shot. And he did like that crazy Wemby, like Freddy Krueger movie does. [43:20] And he almost blocked it. And if he had blocked it, that would have been the greatest block I've ever seen. If I had had time, I would have gone back and slowed it down because he's running and you know he's going to jump at it. And you're just thinking...

[43:33] He's so big that he's just... Jared McCain is at least going to know that he's coming, but probably also think... He can't actually get to it, but he's in my head a little bit. Like, did he actually almost... [43:45] He almost had it. It seemed like he did. That's why Tirico on the call, God bless him, was like, oh, Wemby did that Cornette contest. And I'm like, oh, if only Luke Cornette could do a Cornette contest like that. That was not the Cornette contest. That was something altogether different. I get where you're going. He started from very far away, but that was not the Cornette contest. [44:08] This episode is brought to you by Boar's Head. What if we told you the taste of deep fried turkey is now available at your local deli? Well, Boar's Head just did that. Bursting with flavor, perfectly seasoned with that indulgent taste that usually means planning your whole day around it. [44:22] Presenting the Friars Turkey Breast only from Boar's Head. [44:26] Backyard tradition now available behind the counter. [44:28] Visit your local deli today. Discover the craftsmanship behind every bite. Boreshead, committed to craft since 1905. [44:38] Somewhere out there is a Chevy truck, and the person who drives it, well, that's a Chevy person. You probably know one, your buddy, your sister, ones who always show up. They're the first to rise, the last to leave. They always have that little extra something, and maybe you've got it too. Chevrolet, together let's drive. Visit chevy.com slash trucks to explore the lineup.

[45:04] Chevrolet. [45:05] This episode is brought to you by Whole Foods Market. [45:08] Spring is here, so celebrate it with fresh, juicy, seasonal produce and some very tasty limited time flavors. [45:15] New Whole Foods Market Peach Apricot Rose Italian Soda. [45:19] Perfect for a picnic or brunch, as is their trending mango yuzu chantilly cake. [45:26] But if you're on the go, new 365 strawberry pretzels make a great sweet snack. That sounds delicious. Get savings with yellow sales signs store-wide and everyday low prices on 365 brand items. [45:39] Enjoy the fresh flavors of spring. Save at Whole Foods Market. [45:44] FanDuel has the finals line for us. Okay. [45:47] You saw it? You looked at it? I saw it. It was not what I would have guessed. I'll tell you what I would have guessed after, but what is your guess? Spurs. [45:58] Very slight favorites. Like what is the proper terminology? Like minus one 10 or something like that. Like minus. So like minus one 25 minus one 30 range is slight favorites. Yeah. [46:08] Yeah, so I would have said Spurs minus 150. [46:12] And it's Spurs minus 205. Ooh. Two to one favorites. Very similar to the Boston-Dallas-Basers. [46:19] Finals line If you want to do Spurs sweep That's plus 730 [46:25] If you want to do Nixon 4 or Nixon 5, that's 16 to 1 or 12 to 1. [46:30] If you want to do... [46:31] the greatest night of basically everyone's life that we know from New York. Knicks win in six.

[46:39] Plus 480. Look, if the Knicks win in six... [46:42] Shut down New York City. I'm either sleeping in Madison Square Garden or I'm doing a live podcast from the street, just drinking with crazy people. And you may never see me again. Those are the only two. Not sure we see really anybody again. I don't know what happens. I mean- [47:04] That will be the highest priced basketball ticket of all time. It will be in the running for highest price sports ticket of all time. I don't know. Assuming we get it, let's assume we knock on wood that we have a game six and maybe a game seven in these finals. [47:18] I'm... [47:19] I'm supposed to go... [47:21] I can't go live after game two because my son is graduating high school. [47:25] Big moment. [47:26] Last time I skipped a game for his graduation was the Curry game. [47:30] uh curry game for boston gold state when he graduated the which you have stated grade which you have stated was probably good for your emotional health to not be at the game despite its historic significance i felt like whatever i did they were going to lose but i i'm glad i didn't go i missed the greatest game of step curry's career but my son obviously means more as he does for this high school graduation but it's just it almost guarantees game two is going to be good i'm not saying i have those powers but it's good for it's good for ben simmons that he's that he's [47:59] NBA players that you don't really know in the Bill Simmons love power rankings that he's sustained in these intervening four years that he hasn't fallen off at all. Teenage Ben Simmons and stayed ahead of the other Ben Simmons, who is now a professional fisherman.

[48:13] That was another thing. I was worried he was going to be like, what if Ben Simmons had been when Banyama, like been the biggest star in the same name. Did inside the NBA work Ben Simmons into the Sixers gone fishing graphic? They must have, right? Like if they didn't, I like what a missed opportunity. [48:32] He could be on another boat just fishing randomly, like not even on the Sixers boat. He's just on a boat nearby. Yeah, is that in a boat in the back? Yeah. [48:42] You don't have to say your finals pick, but are you leaning... [48:45] I'll save it for your podcast, The Zach Glow Show. A great podcast. Yeah. We're going to record that. Are you leaning longer series or shorter? Longer. [48:53] I haven't made up my mind on who I'm going to pick to win, but I will say I think the line – [49:00] I think. [49:02] Would not favor the Spurs by as much as Vegas is favoring. I agree with you. Off the bat. I think this next thing is real. Like, I think it's legit. I don't care what the level of competition is like to do this for this long. And you just know, like, I know what my eyes saw, how they are playing, but the Mitchell Robinson thing is a big, a big X factor. [49:21] The other X factor is the Spurs... [49:24] Probably just feel like they won the title, even though they have another team waiting. But that was such a, to come back 3-2, to do that on the road. [49:31] It's about as emotional... [49:33] of just getting to the finals. I'm trying to think, who would have had a more emotional we just won the conference finals match? [49:40] When? [49:42] in the recent history of the NBA. Because normally it's more veteran teams, right?

[49:46] I guess OKC beating San Antonio in 2012. [49:51] But even that wasn't a game seven. [49:53] We're thinking like winners. I'm just saying winning the conference finals, being that emotional to just win a conference finals. Miami beating Boston in 2012 was a good one. [50:04] But they were home. [50:06] But yeah, it's pretty rare to have like... [50:09] I remember going back to the 90s because I wrote down – it's funny. I went through all the Game 7s and Conference Finals because – [50:16] Um, [50:18] What was rare about the thing today, there was every time it's under 200 points. [50:23] Like for, uh, [50:24] Basically, you know, [50:25] Before 1993, every game has been under 200 points except for 2002 Lakers-Kings overtime was 106-102. So usually they're rock fights. [50:36] And then... [50:37] For the most part, the home team's always won until recently. And that was the fifth one in a row that the road team has won. [50:43] Which is nuts. The home team's conference finals game seven, conference finals game seven specifically. [50:50] But I'm looking at the list of most emotional ones. I guess LeBron beating Boston by himself is... [50:56] in 2018 is up there. That was one of the most incredible things I've ever seen. He played all 48. I know he'd won a couple titles already, but the emotion of just dragging that team that he had all the way three series, that was pretty nuts. That was the only emotional Eastern Conference triumph for that LeBron 2.0 in Cleveland because the other ones, I'm not even sure. Yeah, they were like layers. They realized what round they were in, and someone was just told, no, you're actually in the finals now. You get to play the West team. You just beat all these teams again.

[51:24] 94 Knicks over Indiana was one. [51:26] And then Barkley over Seattle in 93 was... [51:30] Another one. And then the most famous one for me was the Celtics Sixers one in [redacted address] and... [51:37] That's still, I think, the greatest playoff season of the time. The Stockton shot in Houston. [51:41] Oh, that's a great one. 97. Yeah. [51:44] The Matt Maloney team. That's a really good one. [51:48] But – [51:50] I wonder how much they have left in the tank. [51:53] Wemby has never played this many minutes before. [51:56] For this kind of a stretch, they've been really, really, really careful with him. Almost like a pitcher not throwing more than five, six innings. [52:03] But he was 40 minutes or around there for about a month. [52:08] Um... [52:09] So we'll see what happens. We'll see what they have left in the tank. Let's talk about what happens with OKC. [52:15] I always like to play What Do You Do With You. [52:17] Thank you. [52:18] So we talked about the safest thing to do is just be like, look, man, [52:22] We won the title last year. [52:24] We had a big bullseye on us all year. It was the first time we became the villains. [52:28] The flopping thing became a huge storyline constantly. [52:31] Um, people just didn't like us. That's always a weird thing to deal with for the first time. [52:35] And then we had some bad luck in the playoffs. We went against a guy who's... [52:40] the best... [52:41] The best player the league's had since LeBron and Curry from a ceiling standpoint. [52:46] And a team that just took it from us and we were banged up and injured and let's not overreact. [52:51] That would be the safe, smart move. I don't think they're going to do that. Okay.

[52:57] What do you think they're going to do? [52:58] I think you have to start getting creative with some of these picks. [53:02] Because the thing that they have is they can go... [53:04] 130, 140 cents on the dollar in a trade. [53:08] And you're stockpiling all these picks. Now, they just changed with the lottery form. Those picks might actually be even worth a little bit more than... [53:15] Maybe they used to be, but I'm just not wasting this SGA thing. [53:20] window when he's this good. [53:22] This is four years in a row now where he's been one of the [53:27] one to four best players in the league and you just never know when that window is going to end. So I would try to get at least a little creative. What do they need? [53:35] What's your all-time fixer? Just improve the chat spot? What would be your move? [53:39] I mean, but how am I improving the shut spot? [53:43] Giannis? [53:44] Bye. [53:45] Again, I have to... Anything's possible when you have as many picks as a Thunder have. DeAndre Ayton? The restrictions of the second... [53:53] I'm not going to let that slide. The restrictions of the second apron are real and like make it very hard for the Thunder to make trades because they can't aggregate salaries. They can't take back a dime more. Like there's a lot of restrictions that just make this mechanically much. I think. Are they over the second apron now or it's next year? They're not over it now. I. [54:13] Don't know if they're over it now, but I don't think they're over yet. When the calendar flips to July 1st, they're going to fly over it. So next year, just so people know, SGA.com. [54:24] Is 40... [54:25] But then he goes to 60, 65, 70, 75.

[54:29] Chet and J-Dub both start five-year $239 million deals. [54:34] They have Mitchell, who they re-signed at 3-3-3, the best contract in the league. They have Caruso at 19.5. It's unbelievable, that contract. They have team options for Hartenstein, Hartenstein at 29. They're under the aprons now. [54:49] So they have team options for Hartenstein for 29. [54:52] Dort for 18. They have to deal with Kaysom Wallace. [54:56] Um, whether you want to extend him or not, get him on a good deal. [55:00] And then they have Joe and Wiggins and J. Will making a combined 30 million next year. Plus Topic and Sorber making nine. Sorber is just a forgotten man. Just another mid first round pick sitting there waiting to contribute next year. That they might, if they are really under the crunch, might have to use picks to try to get rid of. They have the 12th and 17th pick this year. [55:20] They have a Clippers swap next year. They have a top five Denver first. They have a Dallas swap in 28th. [55:26] They have a Denver top five protected first in 29, and then they have their own first. What do we do... [55:33] to mark the moment. [55:35] when that Clippers swap is exercised and the Paul George trade ends. Do we have a, [55:42] Is it like when, like the last episode of Seinfeld? [55:46] I was thinking like, do you have like a clip show leading into the final episode and then a party after? I was thinking like the last episode of The Sopranos, like every podcast just goes blank when they're when they're talking about it. And people think we're all dead.

[56:01] I got a mailbag question wondering if they should raise to the banners Paul George and Kawhi. [56:08] Because of all the good stuff that trade brought them. Why not? Not the worst idea. So, all right. So, get creative. I mean, they can do – I think the number one need is shooting more than anything else. And I don't know where they get it. But, yeah, they can bundle a bunch of picks and move up in the draft. They can bundle picks and players and try to get, like, a low-priced player. And the Chet one is tricky. And did Jalen Williams – I mean, this was more or less a lost season for Jalen Williams. Like, almost an entire, like, lost – [56:37] season. And now they're going to jump up and make all NBA level money. [56:42] next year and that is a proven big three on a championship team we just saw it last year but [56:47] it, it, [56:48] We just didn't see enough of it this year in terms of availability. And this game tonight... [56:55] I just don't think we can talk enough about what just happened to Chet Holgrim in this game. Like, that was a disaster. [57:01] Um, and I'm just fascinated where he goes from here personally. Well, and we've also seen a couple of times in NBA history where a guy had such a bad playoffs and. [57:10] followed him. [57:12] Right. It definitely affected dirt for a couple of years. There's no question. [57:16] Um, [57:17] One of the famous Celtics examples was Anton Walker. [57:21] When Kenya Martin just destroyed him. [57:23] I honestly felt like Antoine Walker was never the same after that second net series. Like Kenny Martin just took his lunch. And then we mentioned Drexler earlier as another one where Drexler was the second best player in the league in 92. The next year, I don't even think he made it all on the A-team. Like between that and kind of being a backup on the dream team and getting his ass kicked by Jordan every day, like he just wasn't the same after that. So the question is...

[57:46] So you start to worry that that could be Chet. [57:48] And then if I'm another team in the league, do I feel like this is my opportunity to try to go get Chet? [57:53] And what is Chet? Like, what if, what am I getting in Chet? Because am I getting a guy who, is this another... [58:00] It's hard for these big guys where it's like we're doing it with Mobley and Chet. Like, oh, they have this well-rounded game. Like, maybe this is the year they're going to – [58:09] develop into a 24-point-a-game score, and the perimeter game's going to come along. And it's just, it's hard. And are you ever getting that guy? Or is he going to be 19 a game, second-best defense player in the league, reasonable three-point shooter? I mean, the total vanishing of his three-point shot [58:24] is astonishing inexplicable i think it's like one of the best things about his game and it's the thing that like yeah okay sure it's hard for you as a big man to a skinny big man to dribble against wings that are guarding you and get to your spot you're not an overpowering ball handler is going to back people down but that's the thing that should never go away no matter what [58:42] no matter what or wherever you're going to get five open threes a game by spotting. And it just, he got, I think he averaged less than two attempts per game and was completely invisible in the biggest game of the year. [58:54] 27% from three. [58:57] in this series before tonight. What did he shoot tonight? [59:00] Was it like one for two or something? Did he even take a three? Zero for zero. Wow. So he finished 27%. [59:10] Really odd. It's not the percentage. How many did he take? [59:14] He took 11 threes in seven games. He passed up a couple, too, tonight that Jamal and Reggie called him out for right away. Like, wow, he's got it. Yeah. Like...

[59:24] They were about as harsh on him during the broadcast as you hear announcers. The only one who will really do that is Van Gundy. [59:30] But they were over and over again like, where's Chet? What's going on here? Why isn't he more impactful? Chabal Crawford straight up was like, hello, hello. Right. Like, Kenrich Williams attempted as many threes in the series as Chet did. [59:41] But the other thing is, [59:43] Shouldn't he have... [59:44] Like if I had told you he's going to do zero threes in a game seven, [59:48] or 10, [59:50] What number would you have believed? I would have believed the 10. Because it's like, oh, they're finally like, this is their strategy now to pull Wemby out. They went smaller with shit at center and [59:58] He's just going to shoot threes, but he just... As I said earlier... [1:00:02] When he wasn't catching passes clean anymore, that's when you know you're in your head. [1:00:06] When the ball handling pass catch stuff goes sideways. So as long as they are, assuming we're both right that they're under the second apron for like the, the next month. [1:00:16] So let's just do it then. Do you think Chet... [1:00:20] Plus, [1:00:21] You're going to have to throw in someone else good. I'll just make up a big trade. Throw in some of their extra picks. No, let's just go Chet plus Cason Wallace. [1:00:29] Plus Sorber. [1:00:31] plus three unprotected firsts and three swaps, including some of my swaps from other teams for Giannis. Do you think that's a good idea? [1:00:40] I think that's way too much. I wouldn't have Wallace in it. [1:00:44] I would have less picks and less swaps because who am I competing? Of course you would like to do that. I know, but who am I competing against? Who am I competing against for Giannis? I'm competing against Miami.

[1:00:54] who I can top any offer they have. [1:00:57] And now Orlando, because they, we didn't talk about this, but they hired Sean Sweeney, [1:01:02] The San Antonio bench coach who spent, what, five years with Giannis, four years with Giannis in Milwaukee? [1:01:09] And I think makes, not the first person to make this point, but I think that entered them into the honest chat for trades. There's no question. So it's like, is Paolo on the table for Giannis? Is that even a possible trade? I don't know. [1:01:21] You might be competing against that too. [1:01:23] Sure. I mean, again, they traded all their picks for Desmond Bain, so I'm not sure how many sweeteners they can throw in there. If I'm the Bucs and I could get rid of Giannis and just start over and have Paolo... [1:01:35] As the centerpiece, I'm doing that. But like, but here, like, [1:01:39] The thing about the Thunder's offer offers whatever you want to say compared to the Heat or whoever you want to throw out there is like at least – [1:01:46] if I'm Milwaukee, [1:01:49] and I trade them to Miami, or I trade them to Golden State, or something like that, at least I'm getting picks. [1:01:56] where I have some expectation that, [1:01:59] I can bet against that team being successful and some of these picks might end up being pretty valuable even with the lottery rules changing if I trade them to Oklahoma City even if I like fleece Oklahoma City they're just not is there's no world reasonable world that I can project where those picks are going to be any good and I'm probably not getting any of my own back which is another little side plot I still kind of like the. [1:02:21] Jalen Brown to Portland, Giannis to Boston, and,

[1:02:25] a bonanza of picks, including Milwaukee's own picks to Portland's have coming back and young players coming back to Milwaukee. I kind of liked that trade construction. I have no idea how interested anybody actually isn't doing it, but I don't mind it. I keep saying it. I don't think Boston's in on Giannis. I mean, I not certainly not sensed any great urgency from them to break up their team. I think the, the, [1:02:45] reason to trade Jalen would be to not want to have the two $70 million guys in two years or 65 or whatever it is. So you, [1:02:53] to just flip him into somebody else who then is going to want an extension. That's the other thing with the honest. To me, it feels like a very un-OKC move. [1:03:01] Like if we're really going to like we've been with Presti now for 20 years. [1:03:05] Presti is a huge chemistry guy. [1:03:09] He's a huge... [1:03:10] Put personalities together, certain types... [1:03:13] Be patient. [1:03:14] Even with that first OKC run, that was when you and I started working together. [1:03:20] And the Harden trade was a big trade for them because they couldn't afford them, even though I feel like they could have. [1:03:25] But then you look at the next couple of years, remember how hesitant they were to do anything? [1:03:29] And then that last year when they thought KD might be leaving, that was when they went over the tax and they made some – [1:03:35] some big swing trades and did like the Dion waiters and a whole bunch of weird trades that they did. [1:03:40] I think for the most part, [1:03:43] He's pretty careful. [1:03:44] The one time... [1:03:46] The Perkins-Jeff Green trade, which feels like it was 700 years ago now, [1:03:51] is a little bit similar to this chat situation, I think. [1:03:54] where it was like Jeff Green...

[1:03:56] KD, Cardin, Westbrook. Those were like their four guys. Oh, they'll never trade. And then all of a sudden he did it. He traded Jeff Green because he needed a center. [1:04:05] And that would be like, so we know he can be cutthroat if he needs to be. I mean, Chet is... [1:04:09] Now an all-star and an all-NBA level player. This is just a completely different. [1:04:14] conversation. I mean, there was also the Abaka trade, which was, you know, like when they got Oladipo. Yeah, it's a bigger situation because you're going to get a better player back than Kendrick Perkins. But the other thing is like Giannis plus J-Dubb plus Shea, like the financial, I'm not solving any financial issues with that kind of trade. In fact, I'm just, I'm getting even more expensive. I don't see, I don't see them doing and messing with [1:04:39] Now you've got the brothers there, and it doesn't feel like an OKC move. I would say the move would be, hey, we should have won, and Jalen Williams got hurt, and you talk yourself into that world, and you don't do anything. But the question is, is Cech going to do the Dirk Australia move? [1:04:53] we don't see him again for four months because he's going to take a ton of shit all week. I mean, and, and, [1:04:57] Look, I don't love piling on. That was... [1:05:02] dumbfounding like the whole series was dumbfounding he had a couple moments in game five and six where he seemed to like crash the offensive glass had a couple nice takes against Vassell whatever and [1:05:12] This was just a dumbfounding game. And in a game... [1:05:16] The need for anyone to produce offensively other than Shea was never more glaring than in this game, and he just didn't do anything. [1:05:26] Wow, 32 minutes.

[1:05:28] One for two. Like, it almost looks like it's like the James Harden 2021 Brooklyn Game 7 box score when he was on one leg. [1:05:36] well and you're like oh yeah he was hurt but chet was healthy for this game in the last the last two things i remember him doing on offense yeah you know he had that nice block on dylan harper were dropping dropping an entry pass now he recovered it but it was it took the it took the he like cut into the middle of the floor shea passed it to him and he dropped it and it disrupted the whole rhythm and then he tried to drive on victor and you could hear the broadcast gearing up like here he goes he's going and then he just like fell over and was and like i couldn't even see him on the [1:06:06] Chet Holmgren on offense. [1:06:08] Yeah, it does have shades of that Jordan Dresser thing, but more like it's almost like a boxing thing. [1:06:13] Or like what happened with Ronda Rousey when she was just [1:06:17] beating everybody, making everyone submit, and then all of a sudden... [1:06:21] She fought Holly Holm, got knocked out, and lost her mojo and kind of never got it back. She ended up losing again. And that's why what I'm rooting for is come back for vengeance because the end of Ronda Rousey was not that fight. It was the next fight against Amanda Nunes. Oh, look at Zach talking UFC. This is so exciting. When it was very clear that she was broken as a fighter and would never be repaired. Wow, this is amazing. Let's dig out of it. Come back. [1:06:51] fucking pissed off like no we're not ready to pass the torch we want to go at that guy we want to do it together i'm gonna learn from this experience this was my low point like i'm coming back next year jalen williams gotta be so frustrated that he just lost an entire season lost an entire western conference final other than a few minutes here and there where he didn't do much and just like go back at him next year

[1:07:13] I'm glad you brought that up. [1:07:16] What happened to Jalen Williams? [1:07:19] He played... [1:07:20] I have it in my notes. [1:07:22] He played last year. He played over 3,000 minutes. [1:07:25] Right. Regular season and playoffs. He got hurt. [1:07:28] This year he played a thousand. I know he got hurt. [1:07:33] I'm asking you, how do we end up with him playing 1,000 minutes this year where it wasn't like a knee injury or – [1:07:39] torn MCL or like [1:07:41] This is just like a hamstring injury that he just kept having for eight months. Like, what the fuck? Well, it happens. I mean, it happens. And obviously, everyone is a lot more cognizant of like, if we if we push this too far, real bad stuff can happen. Now, hamstring Achilles, it's not the same. But they didn't push it far at all. I mean, if anything, they push they unpushed it because they were just hoping he could be healthy for. [1:08:05] basically two rounds and he couldn't even do that. He had a wrist injury too that messed up his, his, his, his like a pattern in the middle of the season. But yeah, I mean, look, it just, [1:08:16] He got hurt and every time he played, he would get hurt and he would feel it. I mean, it wasn't subtle. He would come off the court grabbing his left hamstring, like something isn't right there. And it, [1:08:27] was causing pain and discomfort and it wasn't getting any better. And look, he played 37 minutes in game one and I thought he played quite well. And that game you've talked about a lot, like took, took like there was punishment from that game. Like there was, there were lasting effects that both teams had to deal with and overcome from that, from that crazy. Maybe that was their tackle mistake was,

[1:08:46] unleashing him too much in that game. [1:08:49] Because that game, it's weird because this wasn't a great series, but it had an all-time game one and a really good game seven. And then everything in the middle, we're never going to remember. And I think we have short memories. And you and I were arguing about this a little bit before the series where you said Chet's the second best player on the Thunder. I was like, all due respect, I think we're about to be reminded of what Jalen Williams is. And then we were, and then he was gone. That guy's fucking awesome. That guy showed out in the finals last year in a seven-game finals. [1:09:19] 6'8 monster wing who can do everything. Like, [1:09:23] he's he's and like is it this is a neutral fan what you want like get the gang back together and take a shot at like isn't that more fun than panic trade for yannis and all the gang's not gonna be back together though well the core gang like the main part of the gang like the side characters might change but like the main part of the gang that's more fun to me as a neutral fan than panic trade for yannis we get way older so different we disrupt don't we want i would not panic trade for yannis don't we want continuity don't we want to watch great teams the core of [1:09:53] Not the top eight or top nine, but like the core of great teams. Don't we want them to stay together and grow together? Isn't that what we want as fans? Don't we want them to come back and try to avenge this? That's what I want. [1:10:03] A guy by the name of Magic Johnson. You might have heard from him. Or might have heard of him. 1984 finals. Sucked. [1:10:11] Got the nickname Tragic Johnson. [1:10:14] Guess what? He was fine. That would be what I told Chet. Presti's going to take him out. They'll go get an ice cream cone in downtown Oklahoma City.

[1:10:22] It'll be like, have you ever heard of the Magic Johnson story? 84 finals, rock bottom. [1:10:27] came back, ended up winning three MVPs and, [1:10:31] Three titles. That could be us, Chet. No, he'll bust. The press, he will bust out an obscure 80s hip hop song, rap song where he's like, you're going to like the lyrics to this. This is going to speak to you. Yeah. Just think about this later. Can you be Joe Dumars for a second? New Orleans general manager. [1:10:49] I need another phone. [1:10:52] I'm Sam Presti calling you. [1:10:54] Hello? [1:10:56] Hey, Joe. [1:10:57] Um, [1:10:58] I've got [1:11:00] I already threw the phone to Troy Weaver. I already just threw my phone. I'm scared. I threw my phone to Troy. Troy! [1:11:05] I have a, [1:11:08] I have lood dorts expiring. [1:11:10] I'm going to pick that up, the team option. [1:11:12] I could pick up the heart and sign. [1:11:14] Team option for $29,000. [1:11:16] I've got Aaron Wiggins to offer you. [1:11:19] I have the 12th pick in the draft and the 17th pick. What else do I need to just get you to trade Trey Murphy to me? [1:11:28] Sorry, the phone went. The phone, our landlines are out. There was a power outage. We didn't know. So no, like give me the package again. Hartenstein 12, 17. I'll give you 12 and 17. I will give you Hartenstein 12. [1:11:38] And Dort... [1:11:40] on expirings. And I'll take back Jordan Poole. [1:11:44] In the Murphy trade. [1:11:46] I'll take back Jordan Poole's expiring. You'll take back Jordan Poole now. I will. Paying attention. I will. So you give me Poole and Murphy. I'll give you 12 and 17. I'll give you the heart and sign expiring.

[1:11:57] the door to expiring i'll take jordan pool for a year as an expiring so now i have eight centers on my team that i got to figure out how to play together okay yeah [1:12:04] Also, instead of Hartenstein, you can keep Jordan Poole throwing Wiggins instead. [1:12:09] I need another pick or swap that's actually good. How about Topic? Have you seen him? Do you see him in Garbage Time? I have. Any interest? No. [1:12:18] I mean, for me, New Orleans, no. He's fine. I need to see more of him. I need another pick or a swap. What if Dumars says back, [1:12:26] Is AJ Mitchell on the table? [1:12:30] Absolutely. That's [1:12:32] That's what I would say back. Three million a year. I'm interested. How badly do you want to win the title? You got a window with these three guys. How badly do you want to win the title, Sam? [1:12:42] AJ Mitchell, [1:12:45] 12th, maybe 17th pick. [1:12:47] in a contract yeah there's something there that's the to me that's the move because I'm tired if I'm them I'm tired of not quite having enough three point shooting [1:12:57] You know what I mean? [1:12:58] I do. And that's a very intriguing, that's a very intriguing trade. Also, I have to trade for him before somebody else does like the Celtics. And the thing everyone's around the league, I don't know Troy Weaver at all, but the thing everyone around the league who talks to Troy Weaver, talks to him, says is like, [1:13:14] He's always got a guy or two in the draft that he really, really wants that he just loves. And he asked that we saw with queen and maybe, you know, [1:13:21] If there's somebody in that range, [1:13:24] That 12 or 17 helps him get maybe in a year where they traded their pick, obviously.

[1:13:29] Maybe he'd be amenable. [1:13:31] McCain, [1:13:33] I loved how he played in the playoffs. I'm on the record when Philly drafted McCain. I went nuts. That was my favorite. I watched him in LA. I've just always liked him. I think he proved that he's a guy that can be out there for them in a real way. [1:13:46] And I wonder with SGA Mitchell and McCain, um, could you turn one of those last two pieces into something with Murphy would be interesting. Um, yeah. [1:13:55] A couple of things before we go. [1:13:58] Just a couple of mailbag questions basically tied to – [1:14:03] Tied to what we just watched. Okay. [1:14:05] Um, [1:14:07] I had a whole thing on the pod the other day about if they had flopping penalties like they used to with flagrant fouls. I saw this. [1:14:16] Ben from DC said, you missed the best part about your flopping point system, the leaderboard. [1:14:21] They'd publish the leaderboard every week and it would be shameful to be the number one in flop points. [1:14:27] It was just pretty good. So good one. I love that. I mean, look, look, teams do that with their like hustle boards, right? And they track practice charges taken, hustle this, hustle that. And like, if you're at the bottom of the hustle boards, like there, your name's at the bottom. There you go. [1:14:41] It's like being in the bottom in the barrel speed one in baseball. [1:14:45] Like Caleb Durbin for the Red Sox. He's like in the bottom 5% of barrel speed. I love all these stats. When you know you're not doing great. Tyler in Portland, I had a whole thing about all the losers from the Knicks-Cab series, and he wanted to know... [1:14:58] why Tom Thibodeau wasn't one of the biggest losers ever.

[1:15:03] out of how this has played out with the Knicks. And he said the second biggest loser were the seven remaining Tibbs stands. I just thought that was really mean. [1:15:11] You just want to throw a spotlight on his cruelty? Let's platform his cruelty. Do you feel like Tibbs was a loser for how this has turned out for the Knicks? Or did circumstance make this a better circumstance and health? [1:15:24] make this a better situation this year for the Knicks. If Tibbs is the coach, [1:15:29] Are the Knicks in the finals? I don't think so. [1:15:31] I don't think so either. But I also don't, [1:15:34] think that he's a loser in this situation. I'm sure it eats at his craw a little bit or whatever the right terminology is to see this happen. But I also I'm sure he's happy for a lot of the people that are there that were with him. I'm sure it's an interesting emotional time frame, but I don't consider him a loser. I would flip it around and say, how about Mike Brown is a winner? He did a great job with the Knicks. He played the long game. He pushed all the right buttons. He was a good hire, even though he was like their 17th choice, apparently, for the job. [1:16:01] I like that. [1:16:05] This episode is brought to you by Fox One. Watch all 104 matches of the FIFA World Cup live in 4K for just $19.99 a month with three days free. Build your own multi-view, choose up to three streams, and follow player spotlights. Stay on top of every moment with live stats, highlights, and instant replays. The FIFA World Cup, streaming live on Fox One, offers a subject to change. See fox.com for complete terms and conditions.

[1:16:35] Big non-profit hospital systems are making billions on 340B medicine markups. Hospitals can spend on luxury perks while engaging in aggressive debt collection practices. They get rich while patients like you pay more. Tell Congress it's time to hold hospitals accountable. Washington should fix 340B. Visit pharma.org/340bmarkup to learn more. Paid for by Pharma. [1:17:05] So, I think, [1:17:06] Clark from Rockford, Illinois, wants to know, did all the negative national discourse on OKC's flopping [1:17:13] tweak how SGA played a little bit over the course of this series in a negative way. [1:17:20] I actually thought a little bit about that because they're so buttoned up of like, well, the noise doesn't affect us. We don't care about the noise. We don't care about the officials. We don't care about the media. We don't care what's being said. They must be aware on some level. Like, I think the tipping point for me was, what was it? Underdog Sports made the fake Operation game and then they got a cease and desist letter from Shane's attorneys or something like that. It's like, OK, I wonder if this just is this shrieking noise is in his head at all. [1:17:50] out like that in Game 7, and I think the thing that really bothered him was Victor Wembenyama. I actually don't, I probably don't think the flopping thing bothered him. [1:17:59] Sam from Austin said, on the Zach Lowe Show, good podcast, after game six, Zach talked about how the Spurs play a one-man zone with Wemby roaming the paint while everyone else is locked up man-to-man. Goldsberry asked if Zach had coined that term and encouraged him to take credit for it.

[1:18:14] Um, [1:18:15] Sam thinks that should be called the unboxing one. [1:18:18] I do feel like it should have a name, but I was thinking maybe it's like the Alien Box. [1:18:24] Or the boxing alien? [1:18:26] Something like that. I'll workshop some stuff in my head. Yeah. Now that I know there's a groundswell of interest. There's a groundswell. People like the boxing one. I, by the way, have always loved the boxing one. [1:18:38] I've always loved variations of it. It's the two things I've never understood with basketball are why don't more teams play boxing one and why don't more teams press? [1:18:46] Like if I was OKC, every time Fox was out, I would have pressed. [1:18:50] Because I think he... [1:18:52] Castle, I like. I don't think he's a point guard. I think he was dying to give up the ball. And I don't know why they didn't just go 94 feet with him in case on Wallace. I'm just so charmed by this that you... [1:19:03] I mean, we're... [1:19:04] We're almost 30 years into this. [1:19:08] And you're just not giving up the full court press. I love the full court press. You're enamored with like someone's got to do it. Someone's got to really make it part of their – I mean the Pacers kind of came closest for you last year of doing it. The Celtics were doing a little this year, but I thought OKC Wallace was playing 22, 23 minutes a game. [1:19:26] And... [1:19:27] I don't know if, if he's out there, I'm like, Hey, when you're out there, you're, you're just going 94 feet with everybody. They couldn't really do with Caruso. I'm just going to say this. I mean, yeah, dude, if you want to implement these kinds of tactics that may or may not work, but that are certainly, um, [1:19:41] unconventional, [1:19:43] I think you're going to have to suck it up.

[1:19:45] and try to get the GM job for the Sacramento Kings. Because your owner is a guy who suggested that his coach play four on five defense and cherry pick. And it's like, if that's available, you can go to the owner and say here in the job interview, you're, [1:19:59] Here are some crazy things I want to try. You're going to think I'm crazy, but these are going to work. He's the right audience. Maybe this is your destiny. You can save the king. Eight through 12, we are going to press for five minutes a half. Maxine Reynaud is going to be a full-court press center for us. We're doing it. [1:20:16] But Vivek is a gullible guy because Vlade Divac looked him in the eye and said, [1:20:21] We already have Darren Fox. [1:20:23] Luca is a big market superstar. He's not going to want to stay here. And Vivek's like, you're probably right. Let's take Marvin Bagley. I signed off. [1:20:30] So if he signed off on Marvin Bagley over Luca, I think he would sign off on my press idea. This is and then you but then that you have carte blanche, you're what's working against you is you did not play for the Sacramento Kings in the early 2000s. That would have been a big leg up for you in this in this race. But alas, I would have started smoking again, too. I got a bunch of emails today. Are you a soccer guy or no? I'm ready for the World Cup. I don't know. I watched the final. Do you follow what happened today? I saw the penalty kicks. [1:20:56] So PSG won for the second year in a row. And I got a million emails about this, about how... [1:21:01] Mbappe. Mbappe. Mbappe. I always screwed up. [1:21:08] My speech dyslexia. He doesn't play for them anymore. [1:21:11] No, but he left and they've won two titles in a row and people are wondering. Ewing theory?

[1:21:15] It's gone further than that. It's like, A, is this the best Ewing theory ever? [1:21:20] And B, should we just change the name? We're never changing the name. [1:21:24] But I can't think of a better Ewing theory than this of going all in on a guy. The guy leaves and then they immediately win two titles without him when he's considered to be one of the best players in the world. His first name is I have to co-sign it. His first name is Killian, right? [1:21:38] Kylian Mbappe. I feel like that gives us, gives you a lot of pun potential for like, you don't even have to kill in theory. You have kills sitting there in the first, in the first part of his name, but he plays for Real Madrid. I assume they're good and he's still very good. Like, you know, not as good as you'd think. Okay. Um, [1:21:56] I had a mailbag thing about... [1:22:00] a single shot swinging a series. [1:22:03] How few times that's actually happened. Most famously, Ray Allen. [1:22:07] Um, [1:22:08] And Joshua M. wanted to know why didn't [1:22:11] I mentioned John Starks, his miss in Game 6 in 1994. [1:22:15] And a couple of people have wondered about this. Why doesn't that get better PR now? [1:22:20] As a do or die, we could have won the title if that went in. Listen... [1:22:25] I watched a lot of basketball back then. [1:22:28] There was no way that John Stark shot was going in. I never thought it was going in. [1:22:33] And, uh, and by the way, it was hotly contested by Hakeem Olajuwon, one of the best 15 players of all time. I think there's a finger. I think there's a fingernail on that shot. [1:22:42] And there might have been a fingernail on it. But I just don't think that shot was going in. I know it's like you could say, oh, if he had made that. But I just, I don't know. So the interesting thing about that shot is they're down two, I believe, the Knicks. So that's a shot. They're playing for the win. But Ewing has always contended.

[1:22:58] I was rolling to the rim wide open at the nail, and John had a passing lane to me, and he didn't make it. And Starks has always said – [1:23:07] There was just so little time on the clock that I wasn't sure I had time to pass it. You would have time to gather it and shoot it. But Ewing, as always said, if he had passed it to me, we're going to overtime. I'm making a little eight-footer. We're going to overtime. [1:23:19] Well, he did miss that little eight-footer the next year. [1:23:21] Um, [1:23:23] Jack from Chicago wants to know if we could see with these new tanking rules, a spike tank. [1:23:29] of somebody who somebody else has their pick, [1:23:33] The Nets could be an example, right? The Rockets control the Nets 20-27 pick. [1:23:39] Thank you. [1:23:40] And the Nets could be like, fuck it. We don't care if we're one of the worst three teams. We don't even have our pick. How about we relegate you? And they just kind of spike tank it. How about we relegate you? Watch this, Rockets. And they just play five point guards for the last 10 games of the season. And it's like Silver's worst nightmare. I didn't think of that. Do you think of that variable? Yeah, it's come up. I've seen people talk about it as one of the potential ripple effects of this sweeping change that everyone is still trying to grapple with, including what they've done to the second round, which I did not even realize was in the proposal. [1:24:10] couple shots and just got drunk and they were like wait did we change the second round last night too i don't remember i passed out we can do anything once they've gone for this we can do anything how about we make the second round of like we could do we could do anything we want do because there's some drafts where if you have 16 and 31 it's almost better than having like

[1:24:28] 6. [1:24:30] Right. Those deeper drafts were after the top five. You don't even you just want to like throw darts against the dartboard. [1:24:36] Um, [1:24:37] Rob H. had another one on this. [1:24:39] Would this weird new rule... [1:24:43] lead to somebody trying to accumulate a bunch of picks in one draft. [1:24:47] to have the most possibilities. [1:24:49] basically stack a draft. [1:24:51] Like when Houston and Brooklyn made that weird trade, [1:24:55] when Brooklyn wanted their picks back, and they did, and [1:24:59] Could we see something like that where... [1:25:01] I don't know, the Spurs have a 29 pick, but they have... [1:25:05] three 28 picks and they're like you know what let's trade our 29 pick for another 28 pick and try to have four of these [1:25:12] sure why not I don't know I mean no one knows yet but yeah that's not a bad theory I like that [1:25:18] It could be weird. Yeah. The biggest question I've gotten over and over again is – [1:25:22] Why would I want to be [1:25:24] The 10 seed Trying to win two playing games so I can get destroyed By San Antonio next year [1:25:30] Why wouldn't I want to actually, could this lead to higher level tanking basically? [1:25:35] We're like, I don't want to be the 10 seed. [1:25:39] I don't. [1:25:40] I think... [1:25:42] I mean, there's two directions that flows in, right? There's the team that's 12th. [1:25:46] And, [1:25:47] is four games out of the 10 seed and do they go all out to try to get it? I, I can see that team, [1:25:54] Currently, already, I could see that team under any rule system you have having some thoughts, having some thoughts about it. But the other being responsible, the other one where I'm eighth and I'm like, I'd really like to be 11th. I just can't see a team.

[1:26:09] Doing that to its fans, especially since a lot of the teams in that spot are younger teams who really, I think, could use and value the experience. And like, look, we saw Orlando get in. We've seen play in teams have real success and get to the finals and in Miami and Orlando took Detroit to seven. Like, you know, counter. [1:26:27] Golden State, do they give a shit about March and April after Jimmy Butler's injury if they have this new lottery system in place? I don't think they do. [1:26:34] I think they're saying Curry's fine. [1:26:37] you're sitting out, don't try to come back. [1:26:40] We're going for it next year. We just lost our second best player. And then you're just trying to get in that four to 10 range. [1:26:46] I guess, but they have Steph Curry, and they've always been honorable by having Steph Curry on their team, even this year. And they gave you... [1:26:53] I think maybe your favorite moment of – top five moment for you of this NBA season was that Warriors-Clippers play-in game. Top three. [1:27:01] Top three easily. You were so delighted. [1:27:04] Leo from Indianapolis wants to know if Halliburton doesn't tear his Achilles in Game 7 and then they win the best finals of all time. [1:27:12] What did the rest of the decade look like for the Pacers? Would it have been a fluke or would it have just kept going? [1:27:17] So no Halliburton injury. [1:27:19] Thank you. [1:27:20] And they win the title? [1:27:21] They win the title. They lose Turner. [1:27:24] Is it just like a one-year fluke, like Leicester City basically in the Premier League? I don't think you lose Turner if you win a title. [1:27:31] You think they wanted to keep Turner at that price? I think if Halliburton's healthy... [1:27:35] And you win his title. Yeah. I mean, I think that one of the reasons they punted on Turner was next year is a loss for us anyway. I might as well just save some money. Ballaburn's hurt. He's out for the year. It's an underrated what if.

[1:27:46] I just think as a fan, I still and will forever feel just so robbed. [1:27:52] Of what that game was shaping up to be. Because we could have even had what we had. Yeah, even what we had tonight could have been at that level. [1:27:58] John, did you see Shea, by the way, said before this game today it was the biggest game of his career? I did. [1:28:05] You played in the finals game seven. How is that? You're not ever playing in a bigger game than that. But I wonder if he just, in his memory now... [1:28:14] That game... [1:28:15] Even like that game is so weird to look back on. Like, I wonder if he can even conjure what it felt like before Tyrese Halliburton tore his Achilles. If he can even bring himself back to what that what the stakes were. [1:28:28] Because then that injury happens and it's like, [1:28:31] I just felt like I was in a haze for three hours and not even paying attention to the game because you knew what was going to happen. [1:28:39] I mean, that's almost a good one to end on. [1:28:42] But I am going to end on this. Okay. [1:28:45] Mason from Seattle. [1:28:47] Sent this before game seven. [1:28:49] I feel the exact same way about AI as I do about Wemby. [1:28:53] He's a foreign unknown technology that's arrived to dominate our world for the future. [1:28:58] There's nothing any of us can do about it. I felt genuine dread after watching game one. [1:29:03] The same dread I feel when I think about how AI is eventually going to take my job in a year. [1:29:07] That's pretty dark. [1:29:09] Um, [1:29:10] But the only reason I wanted to mention that email is [1:29:15] That's how astonishing this postseason has been, that we have –

[1:29:21] Seemingly normal people sending mailbag emails comparing mailbag. [1:29:24] Wemby to the most generation changing technology we've created since the internet. I wish I could remember who it was. [1:29:33] who summed it up. I don't even think like that's a, that's a dark, that's a dark version of a thought pattern that I don't think is like fringe, fringe. I think it was Harrison Feigen, who's a Lakers blogger, but I might be miscrediting somebody after game one, somebody tweeted that, [1:29:52] Um, [1:29:53] Wemby is the first player I've ever watched in my life where I thought, [1:29:57] maybe they might actually have to change the rules for this guy. And I think that tweet got some traction because I do think you watch it and you're like, is this a wilt thing where fundamental things about the geometry of the world are going to have to change? Because in his best games where it just feels so hopeless to ever do anything near the basket, I think those thoughts could reasonably creep into your mind. [1:30:23] I love how much he cares. [1:30:25] I love how he reacted after the game. Um, [1:30:29] We'll see how he reacts if they actually win the finals, but the mountain that they climbed and, [1:30:34] you know, the more we're talking and think about it, [1:30:36] You're OKC. You have that [1:30:39] semi-magical year last year, but the game seven was pretty weird. [1:30:43] with the Halliburton injury. Like, it was just a weird way to win the title, but you're taking any title you get. But now you think... [1:30:49] They started out the way they did this year.

[1:30:52] And it's like, holy shit, oh my God, what are we going to do? And now the, oh my God, what are we going to do? Has just shifted to Wemby. [1:31:00] And away from OKC, which to me is the most, it's even more stunning than San Antonio being in the finals. [1:31:06] That the what are we going to do has just shifted teams in real time. [1:31:10] And I think the other 28 teams are still like, what are we going to do about OKC when they get healthy and they make whatever moves they're going to make? And I think that's the ultimate compliment is these two teams are going to be staring at each other one way or another. And they're the ultimate measuring stick. And I think that's why one of the reasons why, if you want to psychoanalyze it, why Shea would call that. [1:31:29] the biggest game of his career, why Wemby would weep after it, because they both have so much respect for the other team that they know is, [1:31:36] what the challenge is. [1:31:37] Yeah. [1:31:38] Well, [1:31:39] There's four guys in this draft that [1:31:42] levitate above everybody else. The order has been in great debate. [1:31:46] There's a chance Peterson could get to four. [1:31:49] Um, as crazy as that sounds, I know you've been doing some stealth. How are we talking about the draft? Where are you going with this? Because I wonder like with Chicago at four would OKC, would that be the power move that we talked about earlier? Like what would they do move? Maybe they just go all in and try to get one of those four guys. If I'm a team, try to keep, keep their nucleus in place. I've done my, I've done my just enough to be dangerous YouTubing of those four guys and [1:32:15] If I'm Chicago, I'm just not even picking up the calls. I mean, you've got to really do some crazy-ass stuff to make me just not be psyched to take whichever one of the four falls into my lap. But that could be...

[1:32:27] That's the opportunity for OKC, though, to be like, we're overwhelming you with a stupid offer. But I'm not even know. I don't know. You hear those stories about when people don't want to leave their house. [1:32:36] And somebody knocks on their door and is like, I want to buy your house. It's not for sale. [1:32:40] Here's the offer. And like, whoa, I guess I'm moving. [1:32:43] I mean, the overwhelming thing is like I got they have some Denver swaps, a Clippers pick Clippers swap their own picks like they could throw 10 first round picks at me. [1:32:55] If I add them all up, are they as valuable as one of these four guys in the draft? What if I put Chet in the table? [1:33:03] I just want to start over, man. Just let me start over. I think Benny the Bull just wants to start over. I think you've talked me into it for Chicago, but also for OKC. OK. I think the move is deep breath. That San Antonio team is awesome. That's going to be the team we battle for the rest of the decade. And I guess if you offer me 10 first round picks in Chet Holmgren, I guess I just have to do it. I mean, I don't know. But then if you're Oklahoma City, you're out. That's it. [1:33:33] Gave everything for a rookie. [1:33:35] You know what the example is? It's when Kawhi wanted to play with Paul George. [1:33:40] Right? Ironically, and what did Preston do? [1:33:45] He said, well, I don't want to trade Paul George. And they're like, what about [1:33:50] what would it take to trade him? He's like, four first, three swaps, and then you have to give me SGA. And they're like, well, we can't give you SGA. And he's like, well, that's what it would take.

[1:34:00] And he just kind of ground them down. Maybe that's what one of these teams in the top four would have to do. They also got to figure out what Wallace is worth is the other thing, which we didn't talk about. [1:34:09] Because he... [1:34:10] Do you do an extension with him or roll the dice with him as... [1:34:14] heading toward a restricted? What's his price? Is he like, [1:34:18] in the 25 million range, probably. [1:34:20] Right? [1:34:21] Yeah, I think you're 20 to 25 years agent. You're at the very least throwing around like, you know, [1:34:26] Christian Brown, Jalen Suggs. No, you're mailing the Christian Brown contract to them. [1:34:31] Well, no, I'm like, this guy's better than this guy. Our guy's better than this guy. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. [1:34:37] Oh, I'll leave you with this. [1:34:38] Why does Denver have to trade anybody to sign Peyton Watson? Fuck off. You have Jokic on your team, dickheads. Pay everybody. Clip this out, Denver fans. Clip this out. Cronk has got a kajillion dollars. [1:34:50] Just pay Peyton Watson and keep everyone else on your team because your owner is super rich. How much did Arsenal make just for making the Champions League final? Isn't there – that must make gargantuan amounts. [1:35:03] Yeah, definitely. [1:35:04] They own Arsenal, right? Yeah, Joker was there supporting Arsenal Yeah [1:35:09] with at least one of his brother. All right, Zach Lowe, what's your podcast schedule this week? I think we are going to record Monday night. So I'm going to San Antonio for game one of the finals, at least, and flying Monday. [1:35:23] Tuesday there's going to be some interesting podcast stuff happening that the NBA is organizing that I don't know if I should really say anything. But now I've said something. But so I don't know how that's going to work exactly. But so I'm going to do a traditional episode where I just do a deep dive finals preview. I've watched my film. I've got my notes. I'm ready to go. I'm going to make my pick. So that'll come out either Monday night or overnight into Tuesday morning like usual. And they'll have some fun in San Antonio. Hopefully see a great game. And hopefully we get a great finals. Yeah.

[1:35:51] Boy, the Knicks and the Spurs. [1:35:54] All right, so I'm coming back with my pot on Tuesday. [1:35:58] We have tomorrow, Rewatchables, which usually runs Monday night. We are running it tomorrow night because I'm not going to have my podcast because we did this. And we did 2001, A Space Odyssey. [1:36:08] And it's one of the best episodes we've ever done without spoiling what happens. I would highly encourage people to check this one out. [1:36:16] Zach Lowe. [1:36:18] I don't know when I'm going to see you again because this final schedule is weird, but I'll see you after one of these games. Yeah, we'll figure it out. I'll see you after probably game three, but we'll talk about it this week. State travels in San Antonio. You won't see me after game six in New York City. That's the one thing I can guarantee. Well, I'm going to say goodbye to you before game six in New York City in case that's the last time. Thanks to Gahal and Eduardo and Chris and everybody else at the Ringer. And I will see you on this feed on Tuesday. Thanks. [1:36:47] Must be 21 plus in president select states for Kansas in affiliation with Kansas Star Casino or 18 plus in president DC, Kentucky or Wyoming. If you get a problem, call 1-800-GAMBLE or 1-800-MY-RESET. Call [redacted government id] or visit ccpg.org slash chat in Connecticut or mdgamblinghelp.org in Maryland. Hope is here. [1:37:17] HopeNY or text HopeNY in New York for Louisiana. Call [redacted phone].

[1:37:25] Ryan Reynolds here from Mint Mobile. I don't know if you knew this, but anyone can get the same premium wireless for $15 a month plan that I've been enjoying. It's not just for celebrities, so do like I did and have one of your assistant's assistants switch you to Mint Mobile today. I'm told it's super easy to do at mintmobile.com slash switch. Upfront payment of $45 for three-month plan equivalent to $15 per month required. Intro rate first three months only, then full price plan options available. Taxes and fees extra. [1:37:55] I'm.