Ryan Coogler

[00:00] This episode is brought to you by Allstate. Checking Allstate first could save you hundreds on car insurance. Not checking your pockets before putting clothes in the washer? [00:09] Oof. Enjoy your freshly cleaned and completely destroyed earbuds. Yeah, checking first is a good plan. So check Allstate first for an auto quote. It could save you hundreds. You're in good hands with Allstate. Potential savings vary subject to terms, conditions and availability. Allstate North American Insurance Company and affiliates, Northbrook, Illinois. [00:29] . [00:34] Hello, everyone. Welcome to another episode of Good Hang. This is a good one. We were thrilled when this person wanted to talk to us. Ryan Coogler, the incredible director, Sinners, Black Panther, Creed, Fruitvale, Sashim, just so much, everything, all the good things. And we're going to talk about so many things today. We're going to talk about football. We're going to talk about Jurassic Park. We're going to talk about how vampires are sexier than [01:04] to get in in the minutiae of the beautiful film Sinners that is up for all the awards and should win all the awards. So I love this conversation with Ryan and and can't wait for you to hear it. And we always start these episodes by speaking to somebody who knows our guest, who gives me a question to ask them and speaks well behind their back. And joining me today is Ludwig Jorensen.

[01:34] made music on all the films that you love and makes, you know, is a record producer and just is so super talented. And they, he and Ryan have been working together forever. So we're going to join Ludwig and I'm going to try out a little bit of my Swedish. [01:52] Hello? [02:22] Espresso.com and use code Amy to receive a set of Lumet coffee mugs when you spend $50 or more while supplies last. [02:41] I mår bra. [02:44] Bra, tack. Yeah, what's, how can you speak Swedish? I know that you've done a lot of Swedish things, but how, what's your connection with Sweden? Yes, my brother lives in Stocksund. [02:57] Okay. So nice to meet you. Thank you for doing this. [03:01] Where are we talking to you from right now? [03:04] I'm in my studio in LA, Los Angeles. Excellent. And are you working on something right now?

[03:11] Yes, I'm working on new projects. [03:17] Can you tell us what it is or a secret? No, no, I'm in the world of Chris Nolan right now. [03:25] I'll just, yeah, that's taking up my time. And it's really fun. Well, we're talking to Ryan Coogler today. We're thrilled to talk to him. I'm a huge fan and I'm really excited. And one of the things I've been learning as I've been getting to know him is how, [03:43] dedicated he is to the people he works with and how he has really long relationships with the people that he works with. And you two met at USC together? Yeah, we met at USC 2008. [03:57] Early 2008, I believe. What was your first impression of him? Do you remember meeting? Yeah, of course. I was, when I first moved to L.A., I moved, I lived in Culver City. And everyone in America told me that you need to move, you need to get a car, right? You need to have a car. But I thought, oh, silly Americans, they don't get the idea of walking, right? But I quickly understood that the bus just doesn't come. [04:27] I could walk from [04:29] And I ended up I ended up moving into like a fraternity house that was only open for grad students. [04:36] And it literally felt like I didn't know what fraternity was at the time. Like I literally felt like I moved into an American Pie movie. Yeah. So one night we had a party.

[04:47] Ryan came over and we ended up playing pool together and how he had, and I remember, uh, Ryan had these super long locks, you know, down to his, to his back, uh, and kind of, [05:01] kind of muscular in a way because he had just come from football. He played football for Sac State for college, so he'd [05:10] You know, so that and [05:12] And we started talking, playing pool. And then I remember specifically talking about music. [05:19] And he had a lot of knowledge about, we talked about Swedish artists. Yeah. [05:23] And that's kind of what we kind of started bonding over music and then that translated into film. And so we, yeah, we just, we were just kind of college kids in the beginning, started just hanging out at parties and talking about music and film. Was there a moment? [05:39] When you decided we're going to kind of work together forever, like, you know, it's one thing to like each other's taste, but sometimes people work a certain way that doesn't [05:51] connect with the way you like to work. How do you two like to work together, and why does it work? The first score I did was for a little feature, or a student film he had called Locks, and I played guitar on that, and he was like, he was... [06:04] It was just so funny because I remember his reaction when he first heard my music for his little short film. And he was like blown away. He's like, oh, my God, I can't believe someone writes music for my film. And I was kind of worried he was not going to like it first. So when he was just blown away, that reaction, it was just so fun. And then...

[06:28] Every time we were together, it was like he had such an... [06:32] It was so passionate about his work and it was always so fun. And we both are addictive. We love our work, right? [06:46] And when you get to combine that friendship with work, so that makes it very special. You can hang out with your buddies while working. Can I geek out with you for a second on three films, Fruitvale, Black Panther, and Sinners? When you think of those three films as... [07:08] What instrument comes up in your mind first for each? Fruitvale was guitar. [07:14] because I knew I was like why I knew how much Ryan loved guitar, you know? And, [07:22] And, [07:23] I guess I never... [07:25] really thought about why he loves the guitar, uh, [07:28] And I never understood why he loves it until like we started working on Sinners. And I was like, I understand like, OK, well, his uncle. [07:35] was a great blues. [07:38] He loved blues music and he always played blues. And obviously in blues music, guitar is the main instrument, right? So Ryan kind of grew up listening to that music and it's always been in his bones and his mind. And [07:55] My dad is a guitar player and blues music that changed my dad's life to become a

[08:01] a blues guitar player. In 1964, he bought his first, my dad bought his first blues album, John Lee Hooker. And that music, you know, coming from the other side of the world to Sweden, [08:12] his life to become a guitar player and that obviously and that [08:16] He put a guitar in my hands when I was seven. So it's kind of a full circle there. That's really cool. So with Prove of Station, I would say the guitar is the main instrument. [08:29] And Black Panther... [08:31] is the talking drums. [08:34] Mm-hmm. [08:36] I don't really know what talking drums are Could you explain? It's the first type of [08:42] communication devices, the first telephone. So in Africa and I was specifically I went to Senegal and West Africa. [08:52] But the talking drum exists in so many different regions down in Africa. But it's basically a drum that you can play messages with because it's very small and you can breathe and you can squeeze it to have different pitches. [09:08] So with these different pitches and these different rhythms, you can talk. It's almost like Morse code, you know, but... [09:14] but analog on a drum um and in every village they would have a talking drum that would relay messages to the the the everyone he would stand in the middle he or she was in the middle and then play and they would you could tell oh the king has died or or someone's back from being gone for a long time where you know everyone get together and so and i met this incredible musician in senegal

[09:44] talking drum crew and, and we recorded a bunch of stuff in, [09:48] in Senegal. And also, one thing that I thought was interesting was like, how would you say T'Challa's drum, T'Challa's name on that instrument, on that drum? Oh, wow. Very cool. The theme. And then... [10:02] And for Sinners, yeah, it's a guitar again, man. We're back to where it all started. Yeah, and Buddy Guy, who was in the film, and who I want to talk to Ryan about, it's just like... [10:12] Amazing. Like an amazing moment at the end of the film. Yeah. Thank you for talking about Ryan. And I'm really excited to talk to him today. Do you have a question? Yeah. [10:22] for me before we go that you think would be fun for me to ask? It could be big or small. It could be asking him a story to tell. [10:31] It could be a private joke of your many years together, or it could be something about the film or... [10:37] Anything at all. I mean, you could ask him... [10:40] Because when we were doing Sinners, he was practicing guitar. He was playing almost every day, you know? [10:47] He had a guitar in his office. He took it with him when he moved to New Orleans for production. [10:54] So... [10:55] I spent a little, not a lot of time, but a little time with him, just showing him how certain riffs was going. So... [11:04] You know, that's something you could you could check in with him. Like, how is his chops coming along? Perfect. Perfect. OK. And only because the movie is over doesn't mean that he just need, you know, that he doesn't need to keep it up.

[11:20] Yeah, right. Ludwig says, like, you know, you just can't put it down. Like, next time I see you, I expect you to be, I expect you to have improved. Exactly. Yeah, yeah. Great. Well, thank you so much for your time. It really means a lot that we got you in what I know is probably a busy day with a young up and coming filmmaker, Christopher Nolan. I wish him the best. And just such a fan of your work and really, really appreciate your time, Ludwig. Really nice to meet you. [11:50] and I hope to see you maybe in Sweden next time. Anytime. [11:55] Thank you. [11:57] Thank you. [12:00] I am? I am? I am? I am? [12:04] Yeah. [12:04] Yes. Okay. [12:08] Thank you so much. Bye. [12:13] This episode is brought to you by Visible. Got a resolution to save? Kick 2026 off right with Visible. It's a one-line wireless plan with unlimited data and hotspot for $25 a month. Taxes and fees included. All on Verizon's 5G network. [12:34] and a reliable connection. Now for a limited time, new members can get the Visible plan for just $19 a month for the first 26 months. Ring in the new year with code SWITCH26. Share the savings with a deal that is too good to keep quiet. Switch now at Visible.com. Terms apply, limited time offer subject to change. See Visible.com for plan features and network management details.

[13:04] Thanks for having me. This is amazing. I can't believe I got invited here. Are you kidding? Are you kidding? We're thrilled you wanted to do this. And I just got to start by saying, like, [13:14] I'm going to... [13:15] I'm going to glaze you a little bit in the beginning. No, please don't. I know. I know you're not comfortable. It'll only take a few minutes. I promise I'll be done. But what of the, what we were talking, when I was thinking about what I wanted to talk to you about today, like the big thematic thing is that, and what I love about your work and your characters is that you don't limit. [13:35] the possibilities of what you want to do as an artist and what your characters could do. Like you're really into the idea of almost open borders in terms of what people can do and also like what's in them, basically what's in them. And I feel like that comes from I've been reading so much about you and watching, of course, everything you make. And it feels like you're really into this idea of making sure that you get influences from everywhere, like that that really informs you. [14:05] important to be influenced all the time by many different things? I think for me, I'm, [14:11] I'm interested in like a lot of different things. Yeah. And all of my experience is definitely like informed. [14:19] Me. [14:20] where I find myself, right? Yeah. And I think that, [14:27] And what I do and, you know, the position I occupy, [14:32] And the industry is is.

[14:35] you know, I'm trusted to make things that can go into theaters and work for people from a lot of different backgrounds and environments and circumstances, right? Yeah. So I think – [14:50] Like what I have to do is I have to stay true to [14:53] to myself and what I like [14:55] And also consider, you know, what people came up consuming, if that makes sense. Is that right for you? It does. And what you're saying is really interesting, too, because as an artist, you have to kind of like you have such a strong instinct about what you want. Yeah. Yeah. [15:12] And it's almost like you... [15:14] Can't... [15:15] you almost want to forget who you're making it for. But what I love about your work is you don't. Well, yeah, yeah, you don't. Yeah, no, for sure. Cause I, cause I can't write like, like, um, you know, I fell in, I fell in love with movies. Like, [15:29] at the multiplex. You know what I mean? I didn't go to an art house theater or to a film festival until I was like a fully baked adult. You know what I'm saying? When you were a kid, what did you eat at the movies? Oof. Tell me about your movie experience. What would, Ryan, would you bring stuff in, sneak stuff in? Would you get it there? I cannot confirm or deny any snack smuggling. But if I did, I might have brought a peanut butter and jelly sandwich or two. You know what I mean? [15:59] I would do if I wasn't that, but, but, but, but no, like I used to like to, I used to like, it was a period in time where they used to let you weigh the candy. Yeah. You know what I mean? And then you pay by weight. Yeah. And, um, and I would, I would do experiments trying to see like what candy was lighter that I looked, that I looked crazy, which candy was heavier. You know what I mean? You just get like a trash bag full of cotton candy. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. We, we, we had there with limited funds, you know, um, and, and, and shout out to, uh, to, to, um, yeah.

[16:26] all the cinemas that used to let us stay. Once we bought one thing, you know, we could go in and go in. They weren't tripping off us going to see something else. Yeah. Get a little bang for your buck. But no, my go-to was peanut M&M's. Mm-hmm. [16:36] I'm not a big sort of person But like [16:41] But like when they started to let you mix and match the drinks, I got involved with that. You know, yes. So it was peanut M&Ms. And then obviously the junior minutes, if they if they in the freezer, you know, like if they got them in the freezer, then I'm going to do it. Like the ritual of getting your snack and sitting down and lights going down. I know you've talked about it, but like it's so important for you to for films to live in theaters. Why is it so important for you? [17:11] You, uh... [17:14] This is really cool. How are we talking about this? No, I just love how... [17:20] How, uh... [17:23] I mean, shit is a word egalitarian. [17:25] I love how you're in there... [17:29] with a bunch of different types of people, you know? Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's teenagers in there because that's the only place I could go be alone. Mm-hmm. It's retired couples, you know what I mean? I guess it's groups of friends, depending on the movie you... [17:42] You want to see, but everybody's in there together. Yeah. And when a movie is great, [17:48] you know, everybody kind of unifies. You know, like you feel, you can feel everybody's energy focused on the same thing. Yeah. [17:54] And what I actually really love about it,

[17:57] that I learned about myself since like the streaming era is like when I get overwhelmed, [18:04] whether it's something's too funny or, um, something scary, or I got too much anxiety, or I'm too, like, I'm too, like, like turned on by while I'm looking at it or whatever, I pause, like almost like immediately, you know what I mean? Like, like, like out of a fear that maybe I'm going to miss something because I'm laughing too hard or, or, um, out of a worry that like, I'm going to get too worked up and I'm going to have a fucking heart attack or something. Can you curse on this? Yeah, you can curse. I'm going to have a heart attack or something, [18:34] In the theaters, you can't pause. That's so real, yeah. You know, like, there's no... So when something's happening that has you, like, feeling like he... [18:41] you out of control you still gotta you still gotta go with it that feeling of giving yourself over yes to something that you don't have to control to pause rewind or fast forward like that that is a really you know it's a really nice feeling like you come from you come from it from well you know you're making me remember like when i went to the movie theater too what also happened was like from like i wanted to be funny so also it was a place where you could be kind of funny like you know [19:11] quiet moment you know like especially in the like in the trailers not so much in movies sometimes people wouldn't like it but in the trailer a trailer would come out and someone would be like nope you know or whatever and you know or you know or something like so and you get to get a laugh in a group yeah like you get like that was sometimes like a lot of people's first laugh oh that's awesome i never thought about this and also in movie theaters a lot of action happens

[19:41] first date. You're scared. You grab someone's hand. The first time I held someone's hand was in a movie theater. Like it is so intimate. It's so cool. Who were the, what were the movies when you were like, what were the movies that you can remember as a young person going in and walking out of that theater and feeling like you had been completely transformed? Yeah, it'll be, it'll be, um, two big ones. [20:02] Boys in the Hood. And I was a baby in there, man. Like younger than my eldest kid is now. And she can't get through a Pixar movie without being like, Dad, it's too crazy, you know. And my dad had me like, Boys in the Hood, like right here, son. I'm like four years old. I'm like, ah! Oh, shit. But then Beauty and the Beast. Yeah. And then Malcolm Mesh. Yeah. All of these was like kindergarten, first grade. [20:32] I would say, [20:33] I would say probably one of the biggest ones was Jurassic Park. Mm-hmm. We saw Jurassic Park. My uncle still had a drive-in. [20:42] Um, [20:43] And I remember being in it. [20:45] I remember being in the car and, [20:48] Like I used to hook the speakers up to the window. Yeah. And I'm in there and it's the scene where the T-Rex scene at night. [20:58] You know, that thing comes off. They in a car driving away from me. And they got the shot. [21:04] in the, um, in the, in the, uh, like side view mirror where it says objects may be closer than they appear and a T-Rex is right on them screaming. And I'll look at, I'll look at, I'll look at my side and it's got the same shit written on it. So I'm like, ah, like, I was going to be a T, you know what I mean? I got T-Rex jumping off. You know, I'll never, like I'll never forget. I'll never forget that shit, man. And like,

[21:27] I got addicted to that feeling. Yes, yes. So I got the opportunity now to try to attempt to give people that feeling. So you mentioned Oakland. You grew up in Oakland. You're going to school there. You're really good at sports. You're really good at football. I was all right. Okay. You're a really good football. What position did you play? In college, I played receiver. Yeah, so I retired kicks, played receiver. [21:49] um and when you're a receiver and you're in college are you always worried about your hands like you know do you when you're like out and you're like i can't do that like no i didn't about it like you don't treat your hands no i didn't i didn't okay okay yeah i yeah no we was i mean i was like i mean it feels like it like it would be like you didn't get no that's i mean if i was smart i would have been able like i was like 17 you know you know i wasn't tripping like [22:19] like slamming my hand in car doors like so it wasn't it wasn't really something we was i should have been thinking about but like now the kids get paid which is great yeah yeah you know um i was on scholarship which is like the most you could do legally you know what i mean like at the time and um and i was like i was like thrilled that i could pay for school because my parents was busting their ass for me to put me through private school most of my most of my life um so y'all was just i was

[22:49] I loved that feeling of playing football. Like, what was so great? Oh, yeah, I loved it. And were you a Raiders fan growing up, obviously? Man, I was agnostic. Oh, okay. Yeah, like in the Bay, I was agnostic, man. Do you have any posters on your wall? Did young Ryan have posters on? No, I did. [23:03] I did. Were they of athletes or were they artists? Athletes, artists. I had them all. Who'd you have? I had Jerry Rice. I had Tim Hardaway. Warriors run TMC. [23:18] Um, yeah, [23:19] down the road, um, [23:22] I would get [23:23] I would get into like, into like other athletes, like Hakeem Olajuwon was a big one for me. You know, and if, and then football wise, once I started playing receiver, I just, you know, I liked all the receivers, man. Randy Moss, Terrell Owens, Tim Brown, you know, Steve Smith, who was Steve Smith. I love cause he was like short, like I was, you know, and was still out there making it happen. It's interesting. Like athletes, just like any, anyone else are like, [23:53] good because it's like, yeah. But I mean, I also knew [23:58] I would meet players like... [24:02] like Maurice Jones, Drew or Marshawn Lynch, like players I would play against and I'd be like, man, they got a lot better than me. You know what I mean? You were like, oh, they're going to be. You come across players that's like, oh, that's something different. [24:13] And I was kind of how I also kind of could see earlier, maybe football wasn't going to be what I did for every. How about Marshawn being like a comedy star now? Yeah. Was he always funny?

[24:27] I mean, he's not funny when you're trying to tackle him. You know what I'm saying? I used to really play against him. We came across each other a lot. [24:36] And he would actually, in high school, he was trying to guard me. So I was dealing with him on offense and defense. I had some success on the offensive side against him. But trying to tackle that man was impossible. So he was not funny on the field. But as a person, he's hilarious. His whole family is like that, though. Our family is from the same... [25:01] from the same part of Auckland. And his mom, hilarious. You know what I mean? Like his brother's [25:06] You know, yeah. But how do you go from, so you're playing in your finance major and then you switch to becoming a film major? [25:13] You leave and go to USC after you play? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, um... [25:19] I went to high school in Berkeley. Yeah. Yeah. [25:23] And at this point, I was living in Richmond, another city that's even more blue collar than Oakland. Right. Yeah. [25:29] And I got a scholarship to a school called St. Mary's College, which is in the Bay. I had a teacher there, Rosemary Graham, who read something that I wrote in a creative writing class. I was like, oh, you should write screenplays. But that's how I was a chemistry major. So I figured I was going to try to be a doctor or something. Right. And then I'm. [25:47] But the chemistry lives was not working out with my football practices. I was having a real tough time. [25:52] So I was like, I got to get out this chemistry shit so I can keep my scholarship. [25:56] And that football program collapsed. So I got another scholarship to Sacramento State.

[26:02] went there and measured in finance but i took i took filmmaking classes on the side that makes sense yeah yeah i mean when i'm when i've been learning about you like usc that you met so many people that oh yeah everybody it's like talking about talking about a team it's where you met your team yeah absolutely absolutely yeah that's how i was grad school um right yeah i met um [26:26] I mean, I guess all the people I worked with, Louis Vig was who I met first, Louis Vig. My composure, and then my co-writer on Creed Aaron Covington. [26:37] And then eventually I meet Sev O'Hanian. Yeah. Your producing partner. Yeah, who works with me and Zinzi. Yeah. Proximity. And you met your beautiful wife, Zinzi, there. Well, Zinzi, I met in Auckland. Oh, you met Zinzi. Oh, you met. You guys met when you were like 13. I was 13, yeah. You guys grew up together. Yeah, we did. You grew up together. We grew up together. I think it's so amazing when you talk about all the stuff that you make. You talk about the people that you make it with, which... [27:04] In my opinion, um, [27:07] Like really... [27:08] I don't know. [27:10] I so respect artists who remind people that what they make is a communal effort. Oh, yeah. But people don't always want to do that, right? Like they don't want – sometimes that's just not their first instinct. And it really is. And I know Zinzi said, [27:25] makes your films with you and how important is she uh in terms of like your process how do you guys work together we just like since we so so we started dating in high school we broke up for a

[27:37] What happened there? That's not for a podcast. Okay, okay. [27:44] High school shit. But we got back together right before we went to college. Yeah. And what we would do that summer before we left, [27:54] Because we was both on scholarship. She went to Fresno State. I went to St. Mary's, like I mentioned, in Sacramento State. But what we would do is we would just work out together to get ready for college. And we'd go to the movies. [28:07] Like that was it. Like we was either we was either on the track working out in the weight room living waste or we was, you know, we was at the movies, you know, Emeryville and Richmond and Oakland. [28:16] Um, and for us, we got really, uh, [28:21] Used to just pushing each other and supporting each other, you know, being at each other's meets, her being at my football games. [28:28] She's incredibly shy, but at my games, I could hear her voice while I was out there trying to catch touchdowns and everything. I tried to do the same for her to track me. [28:38] And when I got interested in filmmaking, [28:42] you know, she was just really supportive. You know, like I was writing screenplays in Microsoft Word and kind of like venting to her, like, [28:51] Man, one day I got the software that cost 300 bucks called Final Draft. And, you know, maybe one day I could get that. You know what I mean? So I got to adjust the margins and all of that. Yeah. And then she, you know, she said her money got that for me. And it wasn't just like, here, baby, here goes the draft. She was like, yo, where's that script at? You know, that thing you're working on. Yeah. You know, the athletic mindset. Yeah. So how it works is.

[29:14] you know, [29:15] I always... [29:16] Talk to her about what I'm thinking about working on. And she'll, I kind of hone my pitch with her. Yeah. She'll be the first person to read. [29:24] what I write, give me feedback. So my scripts are always going out really, really honed at the early stages of my career in the film school. She was with me [29:34] You know, all the time she would in her audit classes with me as she work on work on the sets, you know, producing and sometimes operating the camera, you know, if I had to jump in, you know, so it was that kind of support. And it just it just kind of stayed that way. [29:51] through Fruitvale when we shot at home. That was when we first moved in and started living together. Wow. She was on set. Even though she had a day job, she would just come, like, get off work, come straight to set. How many days did you shoot Fruitvale Station in? Do you remember? 20 days. 20? Yeah. [30:06] Wow. [30:09] This episode is brought to you by the Container Store. I'm going to let you in on a little secret. The Container Store? It's not really about the containers. It's the lifestyle. Less chaos, more calm. I just love how their experts design systems that actually work for you, whether that's your closet, your kitchen, or the drawer you've been avoiding. Yeah, you know the one. And trust me, when everything has a place, it's amazing how much calmer you feel.

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[32:16] This episode is brought to you by Visible. How many of you are currently listening to this podcast on your phone? If you are chronically online, like we all are these days, your wireless network should be too. With Visible, you get unlimited 5G data and unlimited hotspot, all powered by Verizon's 5G network. The perks of big wireless for half the cost. Visible isn't just a wireless plan, it's unlimited wireless designed to always keep you connected and no contract holding you back. [32:46] Switch today at visible.com. Plans start at $25 a month. Or get our premium Visible Plus Pro plan and save $10 on your first month when you use promo code HANG, an exclusive offer for podcast listeners. Terms apply. See visible.com for plan features and network management details. [33:07] what i'm learning or what i feel like i know about you ryan is like you're super collaborative and also you know what you want like those two things are so important i think for any real leader especially on set but i don't think enough people know that a set is like a little town like totally it's like so many people work no totally totally and your parents were school teachers yeah yeah so like you you get it yeah like like the um like that you know that blue collar mindset [33:37] you know, the communal, the communal mindset, [33:40] the need for communication. And for me, it really is... [33:44] I think that's why movies work when they, when they work, you know? Um, cause you talking about like, like mass entertainment, you know what I mean? Like a lot of people going to go engage with the, but that's why you're such a genius is because it's, it's,

[33:57] It's hard to make a movie, number one. It's hard to make a movie. Then it's hard to make a good movie. Then it's hard to make a good movie that people enjoy making with you. They walk away and go, that was a good experience. Then it's hard to make a good movie that was enjoyable to make that people go and see. Those things are really hard to make. You've done it over and over and over again. And you've done it again with Sinners. So incredible. And I picture you going to your team and being like, I have an idea. [34:27] Like, [34:29] what was their first instinct was so so i went to zinzi first yeah um and it wasn't fully baked and she was like man i ain't ready yet yeah keep thinking on that yeah so i thought i wanted some more yeah i think i don't think i went to her like three times before she was like okay that makes sense you know um and and it was better for it and then it goes to say behind you um who who you know we're the three founders of proximity um and we got a co-founder and lulu uranson and this is a [34:59] films so we brought Ludwig in crazy early yeah exactly before that was a script um well you know while it was just all I did oh that's so interesting that Ludwig so um uh were you always thinking about Michael B. Jordan uh from that you were always thinking about using him as the twins and the twins was always an early like that was yes why why why twins it's hard to shoot I know yeah like this extra work yeah yeah yeah no no for sure I mean look like it was a hook for me it

[35:29] Like, um... [35:31] And in this day and age, you need, I think you need multiple reasons to lean in. You know, like when there's so many... [35:39] great things available. I was in the waiting room, I'm watching you and Julie Dreyfuss talk. And it's so entertaining. It's an hour of two really entertaining people being intimate and talking. That's just on my phone for me to click. There's so many ways to spend time. So for me, I think that I'm a firm believer in things having multiple hooks. You know what I mean? And I'm [36:03] And it's a hook for me because... [36:04] Um, [36:05] I have twins in my family, but I and I love them. And I got a lot of homies as twins. But I'm also also have a crippling fear of doppelgangers. Like a strike phobia. You know what I mean? No, I don't. What do you mean? Yeah. What are you afraid of? [36:21] That you're going to run across your own? Yeah, I've had nightmares like that. Yeah. But but also like. [36:29] Because I know what you mean, because no offense to twins, but twins, the idea of twins in general is a little creepy. [36:35] creepy yeah yeah great it's just creepy enough yeah like like so so i think someone who was in the womb with you well yeah that's that's fascinating to me like yeah and and we dug deep yeah with mike like i got two buddies um who are filmmakers noah and logan miller um they actually wrote the script g20 at that um viola was in when she's the president like doing action shit yeah yeah yeah but they're from northern california a little bit farther north than than where i'm from and um

[37:04] And I actually asked him if they would be open to being consultants on a movie, like to work with me and Mike on developing the characters. And then we dug so deep into like the, it's like the mindset and the dynamics of what it's like to have, you know, um, [37:19] You know, essentially a copy of yourself. Yeah. Next to you all the time, you know. But Michael Michael B. [37:25] He just like, he just knocked, knocked, knocked. [37:27] He just knocked me back by his brilliance and how he portrayed these characters. Where did you first see Michael? Did you see him before you knew him? Oh, yeah. Did you watch The Wire? I did. Yeah. [37:38] So good in that. Yeah. Like. Heartbreaking. Heartbreaking. Yeah. Wallace. Yeah. Wallace is. Heartbreaking. I knew a lot of kids like that. Yeah. You know. Um. [37:48] both, you know, friends of mine and [37:51] Also, when I was working with my dad, you know, I'm. [37:54] So, yeah, like it was a brilliant, a brilliant. [37:57] portrayal and, um, [37:59] Kudos to Mike for his performance and David Simon for writing the character. And HBO for having the show. You know what I mean? That show was a next level. Yeah, and he was great in Friday Night Lights. Yeah, that's right. And do you think it's important for directors? A lot of directors have them. [38:17] an actor that they get to kind of you've had a few but like an actor that you get to kind of keep working with and working stuff out with why is that helpful to work with the same person more than once yeah i mean i think it's it's great man like well it's funny because it actually comes back to football for me because i play i play a receiver and i play with a lot of different quarterbacks you know especially in college and it was tough because i never felt like i found my

[38:47] important. I think finding a rhythm is fundamental to achieving greatness. [38:56] It's phenomenal to have [38:58] to have found an actor who's so talented, [39:04] You know gifted [39:06] ambitious, you know, because Mike is constantly trying to push himself and get better at his craft. He's professional. He's also like a good person, you know, like he's like when you're [39:18] If he's number one in your car, you know that you're going to have a safe set for people. Yeah. He'll be able to do great work without making people's lives miserable. He's going to treat people with kindness. [39:27] um he got nothing to prove so he learns the pa's name he learns the camera operator's name yeah the same way he'll know the producer's names you know right um and and that that is something that i think permeates the set like at a foundational level i've been very blessed in that well one could argue too that you you um that's also what you transmit give off that's your station like your channel is attuned to that so people take their cue from you i try to you know but it's [39:57] to have Mike there to amplify it. Yeah. You know, because that's who he is. Yeah. And he's ridiculously talented. Like, he was doing work that required a lot of focus. You know, like, he was he was still generous to people. Yeah. Even though he'll come to sell in a day where he's got to be, you know, two different people. Was it fun to call him up and be like, [40:16] you're going to be a vampire.

[40:19] What's crazy is... Because I would be psyched if someone called me. What's crazy is... Hey, we might have to make the call at some point. Man, we might have to figure it out. But for me... [40:29] Um, [40:30] And what it was, was how it ended up working. I was trying to get the screenplay together because Mike's busy, you know, and I didn't want to I didn't want to say, hey, I got a thing. Yeah. It didn't have him waiting for, you know, for a script. I didn't need him blowing my phone. I ain't where it's at. But what ended up happening was he called me and pitched me something while I was working on this for him. [40:52] um and then and i was like at first i was like mike i can't you know i can't work on that right now and he got upset like hey man what's hey what's going on man like i want you know i want to i want to get this going yep like there's something you're not telling me so i'm like look i'm working on the thing oh it's interesting you're like i have a secret but i'm not ready to tell you i'm bringing this to you wow this is what it is it's twins you know it's period it's vampires and i remember how he how he reacted because he just got quiet for it before for a long time [41:22] him. He's like, uh... [41:25] He's like, man, you know what? That sounds pretty interesting, man. He's like, okay, okay. When do you want to do it? And so I got the script done and got it to him. And then he was in. I mean, there's a lot. I'm not a big horror. I get kind of scared at movies. And I'm not really a big horror fan. Yeah. But what's so cool about vampires is vampires are sexy. Exactly. Zombies are not. Zombies are not sexy. Nah. Vampires are sexy.

[41:53] It's true. [41:55] And your film has a, like, there's so much going on. It's just so amazing. And original IP and, like, beautifully written and beautifully acted and shot and incredible cast. The chemistry between the characters in your film is so real. And the way in which you basically... [42:14] create in the midst of horror, like, like love and romance and sex. It's just like you do a lot of things in this movie really, really well. And I would just like to say the most of the many things in the film that I loved. [42:30] Can I just get small for a second to talk about the scene, the dancing scene in the film? Autumn, your incredible DP, first female DP to shoot in this IMAX format, Arkhipa. Autumn, Arkhipa, yeah. And Autumn. But how did you guys approach the scene? There's that beautiful scene where... [42:50] Everyone's dancing and kind of enjoying themselves before the horror starts and their ancestors kind of they join them. How did that scene look on the page? Yeah, I can tell you, because I outlined the script before getting into Final Drive and writing it. Yeah. And I didn't have I didn't have that that surreal element to it. [43:20] People like it, you know, that's what it said in the script. No, no, no, no, no. That's what it said in the outline. Okay. In the outline. When I got to it in the script.

[43:29] Like I felt... [43:30] strange because I had fallen in love with all these, all these characters. I didn't want them to die. You know what I mean? Like, like that was, I realized in this movie, I got out there. I got to like, get bitten in the neck and check out, you know what I'm saying? Um, and, and, and, uh, I felt, I felt bad. And I was in, in, and I realized that this scene was the midpoint and it don't let me, like these, these people, uh, [43:54] the real people, not in my script, but the real people that they, that they based on, um, these, these, [44:00] Black folks in 1930s who were like of age to be in this juke joint, you know, they were they were living. [44:07] in in Clarksdale during Jim Crow, they all were they all were sharecroppers because it was there was nothing else that the society allowed them to be. Their grandparents were enslaved. Their children, their children's children would still be sharecroppers. But somehow they they. [44:25] invented [44:27] probably the most impactful thing [44:30] American contribution to global popular culture. And they invented it just because they wanted to feel alive for a few hours. [44:37] Friday and Saturday night. [44:40] And [44:41] And they had no, I don't think they had any idea that the music that they listened to. Hmm. [44:46] would change the world. You know, like like, um, so I thought I thought about that. I said, I'm about to I'm about to like kill him by vampires. You know, like I got to have something else in the movie that that that that is like some type of some type of victory moment, you know, um, and that was where that was where the idea

[45:02] the idea of depicting just how powerful and transcendent Sammy's voice is. If it could call a vampire, you know, maybe it could call these people's ancestors and descendants, too. So I wrote the script. I wrote it all in italics. [45:22] I clicked italics on it and I kept it all in one chunk. Wow. You know, like almost like a stream of consciousness. [45:32] read it and everybody read it to know to to to really you know um you know read that read that differently you know yeah it's so powerful and and thank you for putting that putting that giving that context to it because that's what it felt like it felt like you were you were a [45:48] loving those characters in real time. That's what it felt like. It felt like a loving gesture. And we felt that when we saw it. It was so, so beautiful. And so beautifully shot. Just the way... [46:02] The... [46:02] camera moves i mean it was everybody working like in concert with each other um we we brought in uh akamon jones who's our who's a choreographer works a lot with usher raymond um the choreographed like pitch perfect and he did all the panther films i actually met him through chadwick boseman um rest in peace and and uh you know every department was in on that like from hannah buechler to our visual effects supervisors michael riley and james alexander um all them [46:32] steady cam yeah the steady cam work was incredible it's a kid named rennie um haitian american kid ex-football player um his shoulder must have been hurting in that one yeah he used to be strong strong and sharp you know um and everybody had to you know everybody had to work together the actors yeah the incredible dancers um you know ruth carter with our costumes and beautiful and it was it was like that was the most team effort uh of everything that we that we did that that that

[47:02] is, is, uh, I used to call it the twin counterpart, which is the step dancing scene that happens. Yeah. That was a little bit later in the film. Yeah. It's so beautiful. And, um, [47:13] I want to say you talk about your work on Black Panther and Chadwick. You gave a beautiful speech recently at the Hollywood Walk of Fame about Chadwick, which is beautiful. And I don't think people... [47:25] ask you enough or I don't hear enough. Like, what did you guys laugh about when you would work together on Black Panther? Me and Chad? [47:33] When you think about the times where you laughed together. Have you seen Chad on SNL? [47:39] Oh, yeah. He's hilarious. He is hilarious. He played James Brown. I mean, he can do anything. Yeah, yeah. No, but he... But his natural way of being, I think... Would he... Does he like to tease? All the time. That's the... Yeah, no, no, no. He was... No, but he would do it in accent, which is what... It was what's crazy about him on set. Yeah, he was very disciplined. So he's constantly in accent. Yeah. And just being like... He'll be ridiculous. Like, in between takes... Yeah. In between... You know, like... [48:08] Like, I'm trying to think of, like... Like, do you guys... Did you guys goof around when you were... I mean, you're working hard. No, I was ridiculously stretched out. Yeah. You know, like unbelievably stretched out. Yes, I bet. And we know now what all Chad was dealing with, you know. But he was incredible, man. And, like, deeply... [48:29] Deeply funny, you know, deeply funny, man. Like he would tease with Lupita and Danai, you know, constantly cracking jokes, man. Like in...

[48:41] You know, we would laugh most about the costumes. You know, like just how... And I bet it must be fun to introduce a new costume. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah, man. [48:54] uh yeah but but i like we like like some of the props too man like we would joke we would joke and say that he was we was gonna give him like it was a walking scene and we would joke and say we was gonna give him the um like the the the giraffe tail that he can like that he can like swipe like swipe flies away while he was walking with while he was walking with lupita and he would he was he was a martial artist so he took that he took the he took the uh the little thing which yeah he had [49:24] He was gifty, man. Yeah. Like, like, um, but, but how to, you know, he's not a great sense of humor. I feel like comedy sometimes is where we stay connected sometimes with the people that have passed, like, like thinking about the times we laughed with them. 100%. And they, I feel sometimes like they make us laugh. Yeah. We, we see something that makes us laugh, that makes us think of. [49:46] us laughing with them. I don't know. I just think that like, it's fun sometimes to think about those times. No, for sure, man. Like, um, in, in, [49:55] I think... [49:56] For me, [49:58] When I look back on my relationship with him, man, it taught me so much. But the biggest thing is to not take things for granted. Even all of this, Amy, the success of the film, being invited to do podcasts with you,

[50:17] doing awards press with my cast, before losing him, [50:24] you know, I would be, um, not present in those, in those moments, you know, like I would be overwhelmed or, or be considered it to be work or, or, uh, [50:33] dealing with like imposter syndrome or have you um but but since since losing him because he would be the one to like snap me out of that you know like when i would be stressed on on panther i'll say man i gotta hurry up and do this and i'm gonna get fired you know and he would say hey man stop saying that he actually pulled me to the side it was like yo stop saying that you know and i'm like no i truly believe that he was like yo i'm not gonna let anything happen to you tell me i'm not [51:03] I was saying, I relax, man, do your work, enjoy it. [51:07] Um, and, and that, that very act of being present, he was so, he was so, he was so, [51:12] good at that so I think about that all the time yeah like like even walking in here with you I'm like man I'm really I'm really here like I just seem to sit on the podcast and I'm here talking I seen you perform and watch all your movies and your shows and it's like it's like damn like I'm [51:26] I'm being invited to come sit in this, in this same, in the same spot, just being present. No, I literally learned that from him. You know, it's a. [51:35] That lesson is like, I feel like the lesson we just have to keep remembering and being reminded of over and over again, like be where you are, be where, where your feet are, be where you are. It's hard. It's not easy, but you're right. It's a gift every time you're reminded of it. So are you getting to enjoy the fact that you have a,

[51:52] gigantic [51:54] successful movie that's yeah like being rewarded and will be awarded and you're with these people that you work with now for really long it's awesome you don't have a time my life and so we do this thing on the show where we talk to people who know our guests we kind of talk well behind their back before we get before we talk to them and we talked to ludwig today okay oh man that's crazy okay and first of all so swedish yeah yeah my brother lives in sweden so i tried [52:24] little Swedish to him. How'd it go? It didn't go well. He talked back to you in English? No, he talked back to me in Swedish and I panicked. Like I totally panicked. Well, you got through the first step. I got, I said like two words and then he answered me and I froze. Usually when I try to speak another language with people who native speakers, they just talk back to me in English and be like, Hey y'all stop it. Oh, I know that there's nothing sadder than when they, then when they talk back to you in English and they're like, don't, don't, don't, don't, what [52:54] You're right. Maybe I should look at it as a win. You got the first base. You know what I mean? Exactly. He definitely, he was humoring me. And he's so, I mean, what an incredible talent. And, [53:06] The music, it's so interesting to me that you brought him in so early because you can tell that, I mean, this is a movie about the power of music, too. And, you know, you have Buddy Guy be like – [53:20] the embodiment of kind of like,

[53:23] the before and now, you know, just like a living person. Totally. And in many ways, [53:29] almost feels like a vampire yeah in the way that like he's still here he's still here and was there then yeah it's so cool it wasn't that long ago yeah that's like kind of like what the what the what the movie is yeah right and right and a very good reminder it's actually like it's actually like i cheated him for younger because like yeah if if the character would have actually been buddy's [53:55] into the 2000s. All right. They were going to put it in 2002 as opposed to the 92s. [54:01] which would have put the fashion... [54:03] like it is today. So it would probably confuse. Oh, right. Yeah, because you need a little bit. That's really interesting. And you and Ludwig, you know, he's talked about how amazing it is to work with you, how collaborative it is to work with you. He also said like, you know, there were a bunch of different versions of sinners that before the final version and working on that together and figuring out what that was. And, um, [54:31] And how... [54:33] His dad and your family, the blues. It brought us together. It did. How did it bring you guys together? Well, um... [54:42] Yeah, like so, so, [54:45] The history of how the blues... [54:47] kind of, um, [54:49] became [54:50] this instrument of like global cultural change was, was, um,

[54:55] really interesting. Like, [54:57] the Delta Blues, [55:00] Thank you. [55:00] When the record industry came, they made those records, race records. [55:04] And this was a time where, you know, the country was segregated. [55:09] And the record industry was it was it was a product of that. So they would they would kind of put rice records over here. Anything made by a black person, the same record might know made by a white person. I call it maybe rock and roll or bluegrass or country. And in black musicians, when the record industry was burgeoned, they couldn't tour, you know, [55:31] Um, but, but, uh, [55:33] their records would travel, you know, overseas. [55:38] in a lot of, a lot of, [55:40] you know, [55:41] bands in Europe kind of fell in love with the music. Like maybe most famously the Rolling Stones for instance or the Beatles. [55:50] And [55:50] And then those guys would come to the States and seek out these musicians and then take them on their European tours, you know, as opening acts. And in Sweden, Ludwig's father saw, I believe, John Lee Hooker. [56:07] um and albert king yeah yeah and and was so inspired by seeing him that he decided that he wanted to become a bulls guitarist and became one you know um and and when he had his when he had his his his first son who was louvig you know he introduced him to to guitar lessons you know um and and his dad made money as a guitar teacher wow and and what's crazy is louvig

[56:34] You know, how he tells me it was something that he liked spending time with his dad, but he wasn't necessarily crazy about the music that his dad was listening to until he heard Metallica. [56:44] And then boom, we fell in love with it and became a guitarist, had a jazz quartet, all kind of different stuff went with the music school and eventually came to music. [56:58] to the States to learn how to become a film composer. And that's how we met. We met in school. Yeah. You know, in 2008. [57:03] Yeah, you met at a party. [57:06] We did. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, if you want to call it that. Yeah. It was, it was pretty, it was pretty, uh, it was pretty dead. [57:14] A bunch of people sitting around. Yeah. It was a bunch of, it was a bunch of nerds sitting around. And we was two of them. You know what I mean? Well, he, his question to you is, is like a perfect musician guitarist question, which is question that he wanted me to ask you was, how is your guitar playing going? Oh my God. He wants to know how it's going. [57:35] Oh, me. Okay. [57:36] So maybe maybe there's one thing you're not great at. It's a lot of things I'm great at. You should bring Zinzi in here. She'll tell you. She'll tell you all of them. [57:46] But no, no, I'm terrible. Yeah. Like it's not going well. Yeah. It's not going well. It makes the rest of us feel a little better that you're also not like excellent at guitar, blues guitar yet. Nah. Yeah. But you're learning. You're trying. Better at typing. Yeah. But the guitar is still there. You know, my kids play now, you know.

[58:06] I got to get back on my lessons. Yeah, he wanted to check in. No, it's not going well. Okay, we'll let him know. Well, I just want to say, you know, before we wrap, is that the effect that Black Panther had on – [58:23] You know, I went to the movies to see that with my sons, my teen sons. That's what's up. And to see something together, a shared experience like that together, and to kind of walk out, to your point, out into the world after feeling completely changed. Like, the color of the sky is different, and the way we're talking to each other is different, and the things we've heard is different. Like, the way in which their lives were truly changed by that film is so special to me. I really – I thank you for it. Because it's not always – [58:52] easy to find that, especially like... [58:56] a mom and her boys and teen boys and like to find something that you can share in together and love equally. It's such an incredible piece of art. They would want me to ask you. [59:07] if you're making another one yes okay that's all that's all i want to know okay they want me to know like my mom my mom was my was my movie buddy you know yeah um she still is uh you know um so so [59:21] So yeah, I got that, that, to hearing that story, I can't tell you how many times I've been in the car with my mom going to go see a movie she was excited about. Um, she would go when I was too young and go to see movies, she would come back from dates with my dad.

[59:37] And if the movie was good, [59:39] you know, [59:40] She would stand there in the living room and act out the movie for me, like walk me through everything that happened. That's so cool. My fondest memory was her doing that with the fugitives. You know what I mean? She's like, yeah, and the Harrison Ford jumps down the waterfall. And then Tommy Lee Jones says, I don't care. And then, like, you know, that was my mom. So, like, hearing that you watched it with your boys, y'all had a nice time. That means everything to me. Thank you. It meant a lot to me, too. I really appreciate it. And the last question I want to ask you is your relationship to comedy. [1:00:10] I think in all the stuff that you do, you have fun with the ways. Again, you don't. [1:00:18] put boundaries on how your characters are going to react to things. Sometimes they're like light and comedic. You have a, you want to have fun in the stuff that you make and you want people to have fun when they go and see your films. What, what are your, [1:00:31] What were some influential comedic films for you growing up? And what's making you laugh? [1:00:37] Now, how do you laugh? Now, it's so funny. A lot of it for me, [1:00:44] These days. [1:00:46] Um, it's coming to like, it's coming from the internet. Yeah. Like, like, like, like big time, man. Like, um, but coming up. [1:00:56] One of my favorite movies is Coming to America. Oh, my God. Incredible movie. That's got my heart to this day. And I love...

[1:01:09] I love Friday. Yeah. You know, like, like, that's a big one. Yeah. I love, I love like McKay's work. Like, [1:01:17] One of my favorite movies is The Other Guys. Oh, yeah. I think that gets slept on. I totally agree. That's my favorite movie of his. You know, you make some great ones. [1:01:26] That is a stupid fun movie. Yo, I can't like it's like it's some it's so much. It's like it's so much. Yeah, it's so much in that movie. That's that's that's that's. [1:01:37] That's so deeply hilarious. Yeah. You know, and yeah, like, like, like obviously SNL, you know. Do you watch SNL? Yeah, big time. You do? Yeah. I got homies that's been on there and just, you know, like, like I love what Mike did on there. Yeah. The State Farm bit. You know. Wait, let's watch that. [1:01:56] Wait, tell me again. Explain again the State Farm bit. So, so, so, so Mike is, you want me to? Yeah, will you set it up? Set up the clip. [1:02:07] it just goes dark. Like from there, it becomes like a... [1:02:14] Like a David Lynch movie. [1:02:18] Oh, yeah. Jake with J-Pup. Okay. He just totally replaces. He totally replaces. He becomes this man's worst nightmare. Like he replaces him. I can see how you would like this. [1:02:28] he was teaching his kid how to play he's got his hand on the small of his wife's back yeah oh he just gave him a look yeah okay so you're you do you watch you watch sketch to get i do okay yeah i do i love it i love it that's why i'm so excited to be here i mean obviously i mean that that enjoy from from

[1:02:58] All of the comedy stuff, man. I'm like, I think it's like the highest level. [1:03:04] of what we do in Salt Lake. [1:03:07] No. [1:03:08] Any of y'all that can kill it on multiple levels and multiple ways. You know what I mean? Live, scripted, or improv is like, you know. [1:03:16] But you would know that from my work. [1:03:20] No, I feel it. I'm definitely in there. Yeah, I get it. And I know you're... [1:03:25] like beyond busy it means a lot that you came thank you so much for coming it was such a such a such a pleasure and um thank you to every your incredible team of people too who made it happen so thanks for it it means a lot thanks so much for coming thank you so much ryan that was awesome and uh i learned so much about you and about films and your love of them so thanks for joining me today and um for this polar plunge as we finish um you know i asked ryan what kind of posters were [1:03:55] I thought it was only fair to share what was hanging on my wall when I was growing up. So you should know that I had a poster of the band Whitesnake. [1:04:03] Mm-hmm. [1:04:05] Okay, that's number one. Number two, I think I must have had like a movie poster. It was probably... [1:04:15] Bye. [1:04:15] You know, something like Lily Tomlin and Bette Midler and like big business or something like that. I don't remember. I probably had an 80s motivational poster like a cat hanging on a branch saying hang in there. When I was really young, I used to look at a magazine called Teen Beat and I would rip out posters of Sean Cassidy.

[1:04:37] Thank you. [1:04:37] and put them on my wall and put lip, [1:04:42] Balm on my lips and then kiss the picture. [1:04:47] So. [1:04:47] I don't know. Just felt like you guys needed to know that. Okay. Ryan, thank you so much for joining us. Thanks for listening. Bye. [1:05:17] Original music by Amy Miles. [1:05:24] Starting a business can seem like a daunting task, unless you have a partner like Shopify. [1:05:29] They have the tools you need to start and grow your business. From designing a website, to marketing, to selling and beyond, Shopify can help with everything you need. [1:05:38] There's a reason millions of companies like Mattel, Heinz, and Allbirds continue to trust and use them. [1:05:43] With Shopify on your side, turn your big business idea into... Sign up for your $1 per month trial at shopify.com slash special offer. [1:05:52] Spotify, it's Jay Shetty. Are you one of those media strategy people? Scrolling through spreadsheets, searching for an audience that pays twice as much attention to your ads than they do on social? Let me introduce you to fans. And they're here with me on Spotify. Trust me, I know fans. They don't skip, they stay for hours. They don't move on, they manifest. They're not a demographic group, they're fans. Spotify Advertising.

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