UPDATE: April Tinsley & The Monster in Ft. Wayne

[00:00] Hi, Crime Junkies. It's Britt, and I have big news. One of my favorite seasonal shows, CounterClock, is back with a brand new season, and it is wild. Host Delia D'Ambra is digging into the 2008 Lane Bryant murders. I mean, this isn't just a recap. It is a reinvestigation. She's talking to law enforcement, people from the community, even sources who have never spoken publicly until now. And you know I love a show that asks all the questions. Listen to CounterClock Season 8 now, wherever you get your podcasts. [00:30] Hi, Crime Junkies. I'm your host, Ashley Flowers, and today I'm not joined by Britt. I'm joined by someone else whose name you probably didn't know, but someone you've all been begging to hear from. I'm Captain Kevin Smith. I'm the N-2 commander for the Indiana State Police. I have 31 years on the department. [00:51] in the last three years I've been the detective commander out of the Fort William Post before I got from River to Captain. [00:56] I spent a very long time [00:59] an investigative side of our department. [01:01] at Fort Wayne area. [01:02] as a detective for [redacted address] detective and then a [01:05] commander for three years in the detective division. [01:08] and now a captain, so that's kind of why I was so heavily involved in the April Tinsley case. [01:12] That's right. This is the update episode you all have been begging for. If you're brand new to Crime Junkie and listening for the very first time, go back and listen to episode 18 first. It's titled Wanted, Monster in Fort Wayne. We told the story of April Tinsley, who was an eight-year-old girl murdered in rural Indiana.

[01:42] members. [01:42] But with the magic of DNA and what we're calling the season of justice, local law enforcement were able to apprehend her killer in July of 2018. At the time, there was little known but a name, John Miller. And following his arrest, very few details came out about him or his connection to April. There wasn't much of a story we could do until the trial happened. [02:12] something even better, an interview with one of the men responsible for bringing April's killer to justice, Captain Kevin Smith of the Indiana State Police. We were given a room in the Indianapolis headquarters to talk in, which is why the audio is a little different than what you're used to. But the story he has to tell is incredible. We're going to give you my unedited conversation with Captain Smith, and you'll hear him discuss how they came up with the idea to use genealogy, [02:42] a man they've been chasing for 30 years, and what all of this means for the future of law enforcement. [02:49] Thank you.

[03:20] How long were you working on her case? I worked on it when I got into Detective Vision in 2005. Everybody worked on it. Such a big case. It occurred my [03:32] my probationary year. I came on in December of '87 as a new trooper and got sent up to Northeast Indiana to Angola's to the county area to work. [03:40] I got sent up there December 19th, we graduated in '87, and it occurred on April 1st of '88. [03:48] so I had just got my car I've been to my training and just was out on my own [03:53] And it happened to, well, April was found in DeKalb County, and I was living in Subin, so right next to each other. [03:59] So obviously I didn't work on it as a rookie trooper. [04:02] But it was a big deal. Everybody knew about it. It was all over the news, even before the Internet. Then it still got a lot of news coverage back then on Fort Wayne stations. That's what I was going to ask, too, is at the time, it seems like that was unlike anything they had in the area. Yeah, it was. They hadn't had anything in that area. They had one a few years later. [04:22] kinda similar to the Sarah Bowker case which is still technically unsolved [04:26] but they hadn't had anything before that for a long time like that. Nothing like that [04:30] at all and it was a big news deal back then [04:33] And what was it that made everyone so sure? Was it that the DNA didn't match in the Sarah case and April case? Because I kept seeing even years and years later those two getting linked, but you guys had said all along you didn't think that they were linked. Well, I didn't work specifically on the Sarah Balker case. A bunch of our guys did. [04:49] I trust their judgment that at this point everybody's pretty well satisfied that those two cases are not linked.

[04:56] I think there's enough information out there that we don't believe they're linked. [04:59] What kind of stuff, and if you can't say, you can't say, what kind of stuff did you guys hold back in this case? [05:06] well i think [05:07] in April Tinsley case because it spans so many years, 30. [05:12] and because there was so much media coverage on it that never really ended. The Fort Wayne News Media was really good on that case. I work very closely with the media. I have a great relationship with them. They are very helpful to us on these type of cases. In fact, they're invaluable because of the... [05:29] broad spectrum they cover was getting information out. [05:32] Thank you. [05:33] And they, I mean, literally every year on the anniversary, April 1st or April 4th, the body was found on the 4th, they would run something on the four Fort Wayne news stations, which covers, that's the second biggest city in the state. Fort Wayne's got 200 and some thousand people in it. That's a lot of coverage. We got that every year. Everybody that had lived in Fort Wayne for more than six months knew about the April Tinsley case. [05:56] So [05:57] because of that [05:58] they were constantly wanting [06:02] to try to help us over every year. [06:05] So we did, between us and the city of Fort Wayne, we worked it together. [06:10] because she was abducted in the city limits and that's where it started and she was found in DeKalb County out in the rural area three days later. So that's where we got heavily involved then because we oftentimes do the rural stuff. [06:22] and we worked it together for all those years. [06:23] But because there was all that coverage for all those years...

[06:27] we did slowly release more than we probably normally would trying to get something back [06:32] you know we usually don't release much [06:35] But if it goes on and on and on and on, you're not getting anything. You've got to give them something new. [06:40] um [06:41] for the public to maybe make a connection somewhere so there was a lot, I mean I've spoken before about this [06:47] There was about as much information released on that case as you're ever going to find. There weren't many secrets left. [06:53] um [06:54] there just weren't. We had talked about what was the scene [06:57] what we had as far as DNA goes, that stuff was all public. [07:00] you can go on Google before we solved it and pull up all kinds of stuff. Copies of the notes that were found that was made public, eventually hoping somebody would recognize the handwriting. [07:09] So that stuff usually isn't, but it was in this case. [07:12] crazy. So the guy that obviously got caught. So how did you guys decide to use... [07:19] the paragon, the genealogy, did they approach you or did you guys approach them? That story goes back a ways. [07:26] and there's other people involved in it too and I don't want to speak for them but I'll give you what we... [07:30] what I can tell you [07:31] um... in [07:34] about 2008 [07:36] I think Parabon Nano Labs was actually founded in 2008. They started as a company. Steve Armantrout and his wife started that company. [07:45] Um... [07:47] And they... [07:48] the [07:49] Their specialty at that time, my understanding is, is the... [07:53] is the phenotype, the snapshots, pictures based on DNA. I can give you a composite picture of your suspect based on a DNA sample if you provide us with a sample. That's what they started their business specializing in for law enforcement. And they came to us.

[08:10] us being us in Fort Wayne City because we worked it together. [08:14] in 2008. [08:16] as a brand new company and said, here's what we're doing. [08:19] We would like to try this on the Tinsley case. It's a pretty big case. Can we help you? Because 2008 is the 20th anniversary, so it's getting a lot of press. We had a big push. Investigatively, we had a couple weeks we devoted just to this for a whole bunch of detectives. We spent a ton of time working on it. [08:36] you know [08:37] took a ton of DNA samples, asked all kinds of help from the public, got a lot more leads and a bunch more DNA. [08:45] They said, hey, let us do this. Let's try it. [08:50] They did it. So they were, it was their first case. If you talk to Steve Armitrout, the owner, he will tell you that is the very first case they did for law enforcement. [08:59] This is the April Tenza case. [09:01] on that time on that thing of that [09:03] snapshot. [09:05] So we had a history with them on this. [09:08] and uh... [09:09] even though we didn't have anything else going on with them at that point because we [09:13] In 2008, we didn't know about this other. They didn't either. Maybe they did, but nobody really knew that much. [09:19] but in [09:21] I don't [09:22] I was... [09:24] made the detective commander at Fort Wayne in 2015. [09:28] and I uh [09:31] I've always paid very close attention [09:35] as a detective the ten years I was a detective [09:38] I worked a ton of cold cases. That was kind of a specialty I had was cold cases. My supervisors at that time let me do it because I had an interest in it.

[09:45] cold cases are totally different [09:47] Your mindset, investigatively, even your personality has to be different. You have to be willing to go long periods of time without gaining any ground and still be okay with it. [09:59] In law enforcement, we talk a lot about immediate gratification, [10:03] with like road patrol officers, a guy that just owned road patrol officers. I worked road for fourteen years. [10:09] That's an immediate gratification job. [10:11] You go out, you stop a car that's doing something wrong, [10:13] and you take your right to you write him a ticket or warning [10:16] or a verbal warning and you let them go. So you've [10:19] identify the problem [10:20] dealt with it, punished it, move on. [10:22] That's immediate re-application. [10:24] Thank you. [10:25] you get in that groove on the road. When you go on investigations, you have to slow down if you're going to be a detective. [10:31] Just as a regular tech, you've got to slow down. [10:33] because cases take a long time. [10:36] It takes weeks, months, sometimes years to work cases to get some type of culmination. Even a current homicide that occurs where you go right out and the suspect's right there and you've got him in custody, even that, by the time you get all the... [10:48] Evidentiary information done, all the witnesses and the interviews, all the paperwork from the prosecutor getting charged, [10:53] by the time it goes through the courts and is adjudicated it can be a year or two [10:56] You've got to slow down and get your mind set for that when you go in to be a full-time detective. [11:01] So most of the detectives [11:03] have a really and then some people can't do that [11:06] some people are immediate gratification people, they can never get into that group. [11:09] They would struggle as a detective if they were. [11:12] um [11:13] So our detectives generally are pretty good at that. They gravitate toward that.

[11:17] But even amongst detectives, if you're going to work cold cases, you've got to really learn how to deal with that. It's very frustrating, and you can't let it get to you. [11:25] and keep you from working on it. [11:27] Because you will literally go years without anything positive. [11:31] But you have to keep going back. [11:33] And look, you've got to read it again. [11:36] and you've got to pay attention to what's going on in the world. [11:40] You can't get too focused and fortunately for me [11:43] with my supervisors for all that 10 years I was a detective [11:47] they allowed me because I had an interest to work cold cases because a lot of guys don't want to work them because they're so frustrating. I know a lot of detectives are fantastic detectives. [11:57] But they don't do so well on the cold case side because it's just so grinding. You just never get anywhere. I feel like I'm never gaining any ground. [12:05] Okay. [12:06] I don't mind that. [12:07] I mean, it's still frustrating, but I can deal with it. The... [12:12] Mm-hmm. [12:12] The endgame is so big for me that I'm good with it. [12:16] okay just I'm gonna get there maybe maybe not I got a lot of them I've never gotten anywhere on but [12:22] but I've got a couple of them, I've got three of them that I have. That's plenty. [12:25] That's three cold cases is a lot. [12:27] in this business. I know this guy's done a lot more but [12:30] as hard as they are to do. The reason they're not solved, they were hard to start with. [12:35] I always tell guys that, new detectives, the reason that case is 20 years old is because it was really hard when it started and still is. And it's getting harder every day. [12:43] You cannot solve a cold case unless you work on it. [12:46] If you just leave it sit there, I mean, there can be the random one in a million times where somebody just calls in and says, hey, I want to tell you something. That does occasionally happen, but man, it's rare.

[12:56] 99% of the time it's because you went out and kept doing things. [13:00] so i always [13:01] with my bosses letting me do that, [13:03] I also, probably a little more than most of our guys, I paid really close attention to what's going on around the country, even the other countries. [13:11] Every morning I get on MSN and read anything to do with... [13:14] Thank you. [13:15] solving of crimes, major cases. Sometimes there's small stories on there that are not very well put, not in the big box on MSN, but small ones that, you know, this is going on in Washington State. And I remember seeing... [13:28] this issue out in Washington State in 2015 where they solved two cases [13:34] using this technique that nobody knew what to call it, even I didn't. [13:39] And as soon as I read those cases, I remember sitting at my desk reading them. [13:44] as much as I can dig up on them and reading that you know we got a couple detectives [13:49] that are at a [13:50] law enforcement conference out west and there's a genetic [13:56] researcher there [13:57] The civilian... [13:59] They happened to be at the same conference. [14:02] They end up [14:03] these guys have an active Cheryl Killer case with [14:07] four, five, six victims [14:09] They've got a short suspect list but they don't [14:11] They don't know who it is. [14:13] And they're... [14:15] they are able to get this information, she gets access to this information about their case and what they're looking for, and they've got this DNA sample from their suspect. [14:24] available. [14:25] And she's like

[14:27] As I'm reading, this is me reading the article in 15 or 16. [14:31] is like a [14:33] You know, I... [14:34] If you let me have access to that, maybe I can help you. I don't know. So I'm reading this and I can, okay. [14:39] When I read it, she's saying, well, here, you know, I have... [14:42] I know how to use these genealogy databases, I have access to them. [14:46] and she told them [14:48] when she got done with her work. [14:51] your subject's last name is most likely going to be this. Because based on his genetic profile, his last name, he's out of this family tree. [14:59] And they're like, well... [15:00] one of our five is that last name. [15:03] They go get a DNA sample and it's a match. It's their guy. [15:06] That's the first one that I know of. [15:08] So... [15:10] I mean, I had read that and was fascinated by it. [15:13] But still... [15:15] didn't understand how it worked [15:17] I mean, I don't understand what she means by being a geneticist. [15:22] So [15:23] I had a little familiarity, but if you'd asked me [15:27] back then, you know, how did we do this? I have no idea. I didn't, [15:30] Whatever they're doing is neat, but hopefully we can figure out what it is. [15:34] but the thing that got me and now Fort Wayne City also is working this with us. We had a group that met every [15:40] I tried to meet every month or two at our post in Fort Wayne, a couple of Fort Wayne City detectives who were on this case for years. [15:47] Brian Martin, Kerry Young. [15:50] We had an Allen County Sheriff's Department. [15:52] detective who was on there. [15:55] We had a task force officer for the FBI that was on there.

[15:59] You know, our guys, our detectives that have been on it, there have been numerous ones of our guys on it over the years. Some of them have retired, many of them have retired. [16:06] But the rest of us had still jumped in. [16:09] So we met as often as we could. [16:11] You know, we still had a suspect list that we would look at. You guys met, and it was just to talk about the April Tinsley case? Oh, yeah. We would try to meet every couple months, if we could, out at the post, just to sit down and say, because we had a group of maybe, there was like 10, we had taken hundreds of DNA samples over the years, but we had a group of 8 or 10 or 12 of them that people wouldn't voluntarily give it to us. They said no when we asked. [16:33] We didn't have enough to get a warrant. So we were continually trying to get that DNA just to limit that, whittle down that suspect list even more to where we've got everybody's DNA that we know of and nobody's matching because we had the full profile at that point in time. [16:46] So... [16:48] we would meet and say, "Okay, here we've got these six people, we're still working on it, we're going to go try to talk to them again, we're going to get a covert sample, whatever." [16:55] We met regularly about it. Brian Martin, who took over as the lead for Fort Wayne City, [17:01] had been in contact with Parabon. I didn't know a whole lot about it at the time, but he had. And we had kind of talked about some stuff. [17:06] and he was kinda doing his thing with Parabon and I was kinda researching on my end and it all kinda [17:13] the timing we didn't really spoke directly about it but the timing kind of came together at the right time [17:18] um [17:19] in 2016 [17:22] I was at the post, I was a detective commander, and I'm going there every morning and start doing my thing. And we get a lot of phone calls at the post. Fort Wayne's the biggest state police district in the state. There's 11 counties up there we cover. So it's a big one. We get a lot of phone calls.

[17:37] A lot of people keep walking in [17:38] a lot going on cases were going we got a lot of cold cases but that's the big one that is the probably the biggest [17:45] It was the biggest unsolved homicide in the history of Fort Wayne. As far as publicity, it was huge. [17:50] Thank you. [17:51] I get a call from a lady [17:53] who I don't know, who identifies herself as Susie Hope. And she said, [17:57] I was given that name [18:00] by the community up in Angola, and I say, "Angola, that's where I live." [18:04] She goes, well, she goes, if you... [18:06] look in the local angle of paper, the Herald Republican, which is our local newspaper. I read it often, but not every day. [18:12] There's an article in there, in the editorial thing that I wrote [18:15] and asking for help and she said in November of 1963, which is the month and year that John Kennedy, President Kennedy was assassinated in Texas, [18:24] same month and year. [18:26] It was a year before I was born. [18:28] Um... [18:29] She says, "I was left on a doorstep." [18:33] in Angola, Indiana, kind of on the southwest side of town in the neighborhood. [18:37] on somebody's porch. [18:39] as a brand new infant. She said the people in the house [18:43] come out in the morning to go to, you know, do their daily thing, and here I am wrapped up in a blanket on the porch. [18:48] Thank you. [18:49] And she said, I... [18:51] That was 52, 53 years ago. [18:54] And she said, I've been trying to find out who I am ever since. [18:58] I said, "Okay." She said, "I wonder if you can help me?" I said, "Sure." She says, [19:02] She said, "I was adopted. I have no complaints. I'm not looking for any issues." She said, "I was adopted eventually."

[19:07] I have a great life, everything went fine, I've got wonderful adoptive parents. [19:11] I'm trying to, for some health reason, I'm trying to figure out who I am. [19:15] I want to know some of my genetic background. [19:18] Okay. [19:19] She said apparently it was a pretty big deal back then when that happened. They named me the doorstep baby and eventually they named me Susie Hope. [19:28] And she said it was all over the newspapers. I've got those little newspaper articles. She said the police got involved, did an investigation, the angle of the city police, and it says in the newspaper that the Indiana State Police also investigated it. Try to find out who my parents were, who dropped me there. [19:42] And she said, I've got that in... [19:44] you know those newspaper reports I've got my whole file from back then it would have been the welfare [19:50] child welfare, it's now called something different. I've got all that information, I haven't gotten it over the years, but we have never been able to figure out who my biological parents are. [19:59] Okay. [20:00] I said, "Well, I tell you what, let me look. This is news to me and I'm from Angola." [20:04] you know that was a long time before I got there but I'd never heard this [20:07] So I said... [20:08] Let me do some digging, see if I can find [20:10] our reports. [20:12] They didn't... [20:13] and what our guys investigated, there would have been a detective, I'm sure, assigned to it. [20:16] see if there's anything in there, any leads. And I dug and dug and dug and dug and I, in a real reality, couldn't hardly find anything. Now that's a long time ago. [20:25] So sometimes that stuff that old is just not there anymore. That's really getting back there. [20:31] So... [20:33] Thank you. [20:33] I did... [20:35] I know who the detective is that worked back then. He's since passed away.

[20:39] um [20:40] and uh... [20:42] Thank you. [20:43] I made some phone calls with the old timers that were still around. [20:46] Boy, they just barely remember the whole thing anyways, just so long ago. [20:50] so long story short I couldn't [20:52] I would love to have helped her. She was a nice gal, I just couldn't help her. [20:56] sorry I said man if there's anything else I can... [20:58] I didn't... [20:59] where it was able to access some old... [21:02] city directories that showed who lived in what house, because she knew where she was dropped at, who the neighbors were around, if she wanted to start digging on that. [21:09] because it really wasn't a criminal investigative matter, if you know what I mean. [21:12] It was just a... [21:14] interest for her. It wasn't a crime that we, not today anyway, so [21:18] And I pulled up the article that she had in the paper and read it. And she put an email address there and said, if anybody can help me, email me at this address. It was very interesting. [21:26] And I didn't... I mean, it was... [21:29] I didn't put anything together on it until [21:32] about [21:33] two months later. [21:34] She calls me back. [21:36] out of the blue and say, "Hey, this is Susie, I hope you have your shirt. Susie, what's up?" She said, "I want to let you know I found my birth parents." I said, "You have to be kidding me. I couldn't believe it." [21:44] She goes, "No, I did." I said, "What are the chances?" She goes, "How did you find him?" [21:49] She said, I used... [21:51] genealogy website. She said I sent my DNA into a genealogy website and she said in no time they sent me a report back and said here's your mom, here's your dad. I said, I mean I literally had chills. I said you've got to be kidding me. [22:02] She said, no. [22:05] Really? [22:07] So I talked to her a little bit and I hung up the phone and

[22:12] And my next phone call was to the guys in the group. [22:15] And I said, we got to talk about this. [22:18] you [22:19] Starting a new business can be intimidating. I mean, the amount of tasks you have to juggle can get overwhelming quickly. And it's like you have to be an expert in everything all at once. I mean, you think when I started Crime Junkie, I thought I would be running a merch store one day? I know. But when that day came, before I could even hire help, I had to expertly run a merch store. [22:39] And I did it with Shopify. And you know what? It doesn't matter how big we've grown, how many team members we have who are actual experts now. We still use Shopify. Shopify drives e-commerce whether you're a household name like AudioCheckNow or if you're a creator just getting started like I was eight years ago. The platform acts as your built-in business partner and simplifies all your tasks. [23:09] and photo enhancements in seconds. You can even create email and social campaigns with ease. So start your business today with the industry's best partner, Shopify, and start hearing. Sign up for your $1 per month trial today at Shopify.com slash Crime Junkie. Go to Shopify.com slash Crime Junkie. That's Shopify.com slash Crime Junkie. [23:34] You guys, I feel like we all have that one friend with that niche expertise. Like they have the best outfits, the most unique decor, amazing vintage jewelry or whatever. Well, imagine if you could shop right from their home or closet. That is what it's like on Whatnot. Now, if you've never been on this app, it is great. It's this live shopping experience where you can bid on the best stuff. I was just eyeing these like three container porcelain kitchen set thing. I think you put like flour and sugar in it. I don't know. I was going to have three different cookie jars basically.

[24:04] flair to my new space. So I have been deep into the antiques and decor side of whatnot. But truly, there is a category for everything. I mean, with over 10,000 fashion, beauty, and bag sellers on whatnot, there is always something for every buyer to discover live right now. And the best part is the deals are unbeatable. You almost never pay full price. It is name brands, but without the retail prices. Download the whatnot app today and get free shipping on your first order. Just search [24:34] Start scoring amazing deals. [24:37] Immediately walked right back to our laboratory. We have a lab at Fort Wayne. We're in one of the regional labs and we've got DNA people there that I work with every day. And I went back to them and said, how does this work? [24:47] I know how our... [24:49] the law enforcement side [24:51] of DNA works, with CODIS and all that, but how does these [24:56] genealogy websites work [24:58] It is the same there. Oh, no, no. [25:00] It's different. [25:01] Still DNA, different. [25:03] different way of processing it. [25:05] Law enforcement does STR, short tandem repeat, DNA. That's what CODIS is. So when they do a profile, it's using a [25:12] for lack of a better term, it's using an STR DNA machine. [25:16] that puts it in an SDR format. [25:18] It looks at [25:19] certain spots of the human genome. [25:23] And the gals told me, she said, the genealogy websites like 23minancestry.com and all the others... [25:29] you know you you go in and sign up and ask for a DNA thing and they send you a kit and you just spit in the tube, you put slide in the tube and send it back to them and they

[25:36] they do SNP, what's Austin referred to as SNP testing. [25:40] that's different. It looks at [25:42] It looks it. [25:43] very small pieces of the human genome, like 600,000 locations, really small pieces all over it. [25:49] which allows them to [25:51] get family groups out of it because they're looking at such a big, broad base of your DNA. [25:56] They can see when you're matching up with all these other people in so many places you have to be related because there's too many places you match. [26:02] He says, totally different. [26:04] I said, "Okay, I got all these questions. I'm not a scientist." [26:09] Can you... [26:11] you know can you convert [26:13] an STR DNA profile that we have [26:15] into it no no no apples and oranges test you have to retest [26:19] with a fresh sample doing the SNP side with the SNP machine, for lack of a better term. [26:25] This is all in the same place. [26:27] Wow, I'm learning a lot here today. That day we got the guys together and Brian Martin had already been headed down that road. [26:35] he was kind of on his side. We kind of met at the same time and we're like, yeah, Parabon and [26:40] And okay, so Brian went down that road. [26:43] Um... [26:44] with Parabon [26:46] and because they had been our, you know, we had been their first [26:49] phenotype case. [26:51] so we were close with them because we started their deal [26:55] So they're just like, yeah, this Tinsley case, absolutely. We can do that now. We can do the... [27:01] genealogy [27:02] research and the SNP testing, we can do that.

[27:07] It's very interesting. So, Brian, [27:10] got them their sample and [27:12] They got an S&P profile [27:16] because we had extra sample from this suspect that he had left those samples when he left all the photographs and the notes on the kids' bicycles in 2004. [27:26] If he wouldn't have left that, did you have any sample left from the actual crime scene? No, I don't believe hardly any. [27:32] that that was [27:33] critical to say the least that we had extra sample. [27:36] Absolutely critical. [27:38] And so then when you're sending this off, this is 2016. [27:42] No, we didn't get to the point where we actually sent it back. We discussed it for months trying to get everybody on the same page. [27:50] We had questions. [27:52] even though there have been a couple cases in Washington State in '15 [27:57] and there was one other that broke early just before ours did. There was one that broke in early... [28:03] 18 [28:05] just before while we were still doing it. [28:07] But in that year and a half there... [28:10] This was new stuff to a lot of people. Talking about all the legal implications and so you guys had to check with... Yeah, I mean, in that year or year and a half between 16 and... [28:20] early 18th [28:22] Um... [28:23] we were trying to hash out [28:24] Some questions. [28:26] Because, I mean... [28:27] granted it had been done a few times across the country but it had never been done in Indiana so we have our own set of laws [28:33] um... [28:34] There was just a lot of questions that we all had.

[28:38] Even legal counsel had some questions to ask. We're not sure because this is new stuff. No case law on it. [28:44] So... [28:45] We kind of kick that stuff around for a while. What's the best way to do this? [28:49] Did you guys feel like you were in a rush with the clock? I mean, it had been so many years. Did you think he was dead? [28:53] Because I know when I talk to people, like the Crime Stoppers in Fort Wayne, they're like, this guy's dead. No way. [28:59] amongst the group over the years, you get that opinion, and I can't blame anybody for having it. [29:05] um [29:06] because he'd never been on a radio. I mean, the fact that he was not in CODIS was... [29:10] virtually a miracle. [29:11] That makes you think that a guy's deceased because... [29:14] because of the severity and the violence of the crime involving the child. [29:19] you would think the chances of a guy being able to stay out of another felony arrest for CODIS over the years would be almost zero. Because if he's that violent... [29:27] He's going to get arrested again for something and be in CODIS, but he's never in there. [29:32] So [29:33] uh [29:34] Thank you. [29:35] We thought it's certainly possible that he's been dead for a long time. [29:38] uh... but [29:40] We don't know that, so you man you don't know. We do know that he's not dead in 2004, but... [29:46] So... [29:48] I mean, he's... [29:49] We're within... [29:50] 14 or 15 years we know he was alive. [29:53] So. [29:54] We just assume that he is. [29:56] You know, the other thing that... [29:58] I always felt like he probably was. [30:01] Because [30:03] I had access to the Polaroid photos that he left.

[30:08] and obviously you couldn't see his face obviously but you could see parts of his body. [30:12] And I had actually taken those photos and shown them to a forensic pathologist that I worked with. [30:16] worked very closely with at the time, who had a [30:19] A lot of experience. [30:21] and [30:23] I mean, even just a [30:24] as a person [30:26] with life experience, when you look at those photographs, the part of him that you could see [30:31] Didn't look like an old man to me. [30:34] And I got the exact same opinion from the forensic pathologist. [30:37] Give me an approximate, because if we can assume those photographs and extra samples on the bicycles and the mailbox were left in 2004. [30:46] When I gave those or showed them to the forensic pathologist, I'm going to say that was probably in the ballpark of 2011 or 2012. [30:55] somewhere in there [30:56] So it really wasn't that... [30:58] eight or ten years before that [31:02] I'm assuming those Polaroids were taken at the same time in O4. They probably weren't held for years. I'm assuming, let's just guess that they're... [31:09] taken in 04 and [31:10] put in those locations. [31:13] Amen. [31:14] I mean, I wasn't thinking he was over 40. [31:16] by the photographs. So I thought [31:18] It's not like he was... [31:20] 50 when he did this in the 80s and now he's a hundred no I'm not buying that but we did you don't know I [31:25] So, [31:26] um... [31:27] But we... [31:28] Finally came to grips with the fact that let's go ahead and do this. Brian did, and give Brian all the kudos in the world. Brian Martin from Fort Wayne City. [31:36] got the sample off the Parabon

[31:38] And right around that same time, we were really... [31:42] is really starting to push the envelope on how this is going to work. I, uh, [31:46] and just coincidentally on the timing the Golden State Killer case broke [31:51] Well, and it's so funny because like to know that you guys had the ball rolling this in 2016, everyone I talked to. [31:56] was like, oh, they got the idea because of the Golden State Killer. Well, no, we didn't. We had the idea before. [32:03] But... [32:05] And actually, Brian Martin sent the sample to Parabon [32:10] in March, well before the Golden State Killer was captured and all that came out. They were obviously doing it. We didn't know that, that they were doing that process. But [32:18] So we had actually taken the first big step before it ever broke [32:23] But I can tell you when that happened, I was... [32:26] I mean, I remember going into the work that day and firing up the computer and seeing that go... [32:30] and the reason it's interesting to me is because I teach a serial killer class at Trine University. [32:34] in the spring. [32:35] I was teaching it. [32:36] and I profile different, you know, the... [32:38] Everybody knows them, the Ted Bundys, the John Wayne Gacy's, all of them. [32:42] And the Golden State Killer, the name was new. [32:46] Do you know that gal, I apologize for not knowing her name, she passed, I believe. [32:51] She passed away, didn't she? Yeah. Anyway, she wrote that book... [32:55] and kind of that was her name for him because she kind of linked all those together because he was the East Area Rapist and in the North and, you know, [33:03] um... [33:05] So she kind of came up with this Golden State Killer name, and that was starting to get some traction. We've got this huge unsolved...

[33:13] serial killer from out there. [33:14] So I had profiled that case in our class. We meet on Thursday nights for three hours. [33:19] Before this... [33:21] and then like two weeks before I go into the boom [33:25] Big box MSN, Golden State Killer. I went, you've got to be kidding me. And I got on... [33:31] my email right away to the students and said [33:33] You have no idea how lucky you are. You know how often this happens? [33:36] They just solved the Golden State Killer case two weeks after we talked to them. It's been going on for 45 years. I said, this is crazy. This is great for us in class to talk about. [33:45] but I read the article [33:47] before I sent email and I'm like [33:49] they're using genetic genealogy. That's [33:53] The timing is amazing on this. [33:57] So once again, went back to the lab gals and had the same discussions, and they're like, yeah, I'm sure that's what they're doing. [34:03] So I read the whole article and it listed Paul Holes. [34:06] on there as the [34:08] the Constra County Department. [34:10] district attorney's office investigator that kind of was [34:13] He was kind of the lead that was listed as the person who solved it. I know there was a large group of people that worked on it. [34:18] So I said, man, I've got to talk to him. He's got to explain exactly how they do this. [34:22] I was able to get in contact with his office. He retired actually right after that. He retired right after they solved that case. And they go out on top. Yeah, why not? I can't blame him there. [34:32] And he got back to me and said, hey, I'm moving out of state because I'm retiring. It's going to be a couple weeks, but I will call you. [34:39] and about two weeks later he called me. Now at this point, Brandon Martin has already sent the sample in,

[34:45] I still didn't really understand [34:48] where we were at on it. [34:49] so he calls me and I I talking to him and [34:53] He gives me the very basics, and I said, well, you know, did you do a covert sample, or did you send a sample into... [34:59] GEDmatch with a fake name in it. [35:02] Because... [35:03] did not tip them off as to what you were doing and he told us what they did [35:07] And he said, "But you really need to tell [35:09] to Steve Kramer with the FBI. [35:12] Steve Kramer is a general counsel for the FBI in Southern California. [35:16] He said he understands the science of this. [35:18] This is kind of his idea. [35:20] he really understand you need to talk to him he'll he can fill in all these gaps [35:23] and he gave me his number and [35:27] within minutes he and I were on the phone. [35:30] And I'm like, here's the, I just talked to Paul and he's, oh yeah, okay. [35:33] and he kind of gave me his background on how he [35:38] introduced this into the Golden State Killer case. [35:41] and he said, tell me what you have and I told him [35:45] . [35:46] and I said we've got these extra samples from '04 that he left for us [35:51] um [35:52] and it was crazy that our conversation between him and Paul and I the three of us was one of the more memorable things I'll ever have he said I'm telling you Kevin he said you're going to know who killed her by the end of the summer [36:05] I said, "Really?" [36:07] I said, "Steve, I [36:09] I love your confidence because I've got plenty myself. [36:12] I said, but, I said, this is a third year. Really? He said, you're going to know who killed her by the end of this summer.

[36:19] He said, I'm telling you, the information's in these websites. I said, okay. He said, just hang on. You're going to figure this out real quick. And, I mean, there was some other hoops to jump through, but long story short... [36:32] Wasn't much longer. [36:34] early July we get a phone call it's Parabon and they're like [36:39] Can you guys get together today in a group because we need to talk to you. [36:43] Sure. We went down to Fort MPD with four or five of the group and got them on the speakerphone [36:49] CeCe Moore, who works for Parabond now, was on there along with Steve Armidrout. [36:54] And she sent us a PowerPoint and started going through it. And within 15 minutes, she said, here's your two. [37:01] It can only be one of these two people, only two people in the world that could have done this. It's only two. Brothers? Yeah. [37:09] I mean, everybody, I mean, these are, we got guys that have been in policemen a long time, done a lot of cases, and we're all like, fuck. Speechless. [37:16] Bye. [37:17] One of these two can't be anybody else. [37:19] Okay? [37:21] So we... [37:22] Start doing our digging on the two. [37:25] and um [37:26] I believe that was on a [37:27] Monday, it was a Monday, July 2nd, whatever day that was. [37:32] It was on Monday. We had that call at 1 o'clock in the afternoon. [37:35] The next day was July 4th. It was Monday, July 3rd. The next day, I believe, was the holiday because we were, everybody was off because we're like, let's go right now. And we're like, well. [37:43] tomorrow's a holiday we're supposed to be off [37:47] Everybody else is going to be, courts are going to be closed, so we can't get, so we're like, okay.

[37:51] Trash Pools on Friday. We're going to do Trash Pools of Two Houses, Both Brothers on Friday. [37:55] you [37:57] I always want to ask this, do you have to have a warrant to even do a trash pull or can you trash pull on anyone? You can generally trash pull with any kind of reason. Yeah, you can trash pull. Okay. I mean, it's abandoned property. Right. That's been decided in case law for years. Okay. [38:11] You can just go get it. [38:13] So that was the next step. Trash pulls. Three days later, did them. [38:16] When you did a little bit of background on the brothers, did you have an inclination one way or the other? Yes. Okay. Because of some handwriting, we had all those notes that he left. [38:26] and [38:27] We had access to some handwriting stuff through the B&B, because when you go get your driver's license, you sign for it, and they're for your signatures. And they keep some historical information. The B&B keeps historical information back many years. They show your previous licenses with your previous photographs, and it shows your name underneath them. So we had a handwriting sample that looked really close on John Miller. [38:49] And so that's interesting because a lot of people thought that he faked his handwriting or tried to make it look bad, but that was really it. That was his handwriting. [38:56] and we like [38:57] We're going to do both. [38:58] because it, why not? [39:00] But this really looks good. We'll see. [39:04] Three days later, we had guys doing trash bowls. [39:07] And had his name ever come up before? Never. [39:10] Never. [39:11] This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. For some, summer is their favorite season. Travel picks up, kids are out of school, and adventure is in the focus. For others, juggling it all can lead to overwhelm and counting down the minutes until the kids are back in school. And many worry that they're wasting the days of sunshine. Having someone with you to listen, to understand, to support can make all the difference. BetterHelp makes it easy to get started with quality, fully licensed therapists in the U.S. who follow a strict code of conduct. In fact, BetterHelp is the world's largest online therapy platform with over 30,000 therapists

[39:41] million people globally. Their therapist match commitment does the initial matching work so you can focus on your therapy goals. A short questionnaire helps identify your needs and preferences. And if you aren't happy with your match, you can switch to a different therapist at any time. It works. BetterHelp has an average rating of 4.9 out of 5 for a live session based on over 1.7 million client reviews. You don't have to say yes to everything this summer. Find support in therapy. Sign up and get 10% off at betterhelp.com slash crimejunkie. That's better [40:11] So you do the trash poll, how long until you guys got the results back? I did the trash poll on Friday. The contents were delivered to the laboratory here in Indianapolis. [40:24] Um... [40:26] Right downtown. [40:27] and we drove them, our guy drove them down there in person that day on Friday so they'd have them right away. [40:31] and uh [40:32] Monday morning at 8:15. [40:35] uh [40:36] Stacey. [40:37] from a lab in Indianapolis called Bodanowski, Bodanowski. [40:40] She called me direct and said, "It's a match." [40:44] John Miller. [40:47] Jesus, really? [40:48] started crying. [40:50] Did? Yeah [40:52] So, gee, you kidding me? No. [40:54] you [40:56] So it's like, that's cool. I mean, it's... [41:00] It's horrible, but it's cool. You know what I mean? It's everything. [41:04] All emotions. [41:05] But it's awesome because we got him. [41:08] because C.C. Moore had told us everything about him.

[41:12] both of them, here's where they live, here's where they live for the last 30 years, here's where the old addresses, here's who they were married to, here's one guy was married, one guy was not. [41:18] she had the history because that was what she does in her profile [41:21] when she identifies she gives you the whole background [41:24] So we already knew a lot about them. [41:25] Thank you. [41:26] I'm like, "Wow, okay." So then we started putting 2 and 2, and we were like, "Okay, [41:31] Kind of makes sense. Where does he live? He lives in Grable, Indiana. [41:34] Let's look at the map. [41:36] one of the letters and [41:38] Polaroid [41:40] Pictures left. [41:41] to two and a half blocks [41:43] from where he'd been living for years. [41:45] close and plus, Grebel is right in the middle of where those were left. If you look at the map and circle it, he's like right, you know, you've seen the [41:54] crime diagrams for lack of a better term where the guy at first always lives right in the center of them. Well, right in the center where the notes were left. Now there's a lot of people in that area in Fort Wayne, but still he's right in the middle of it. So it's just all added up. [42:07] Amen. [42:08] So that was on Monday we had it. [42:10] It wasn't long later we arrested him. [42:13] week and a half, week later. Did you show up to a restaurant or was it someone else? I had Brian Martin, [42:18] the lead for Fort Wayne City. [42:19] And our lead for Indiana State Police at Fort Williams, Clint Hedrick, who worked for us. [42:24] We had sat down and had several discussions obviously in the next several days after we had a match. [42:30] getting a team together and okay who's gonna do the interviews [42:34] that's a selection process who's the best at interviewing [42:38] who knows his case the best, what to fit, you know, there's a lot of variables. Interviewing is a very interesting thing.

[42:45] study, um... [42:47] styles are different. [42:49] when you do an interview with two people opposed to one as far as the policeman go, you want to make sure you match up your styles right. [42:55] Thank you. [42:56] you'll never want to put [42:57] two alpha... [42:59] alpha interviewers on the same team. [43:02] Even though they may be the best policemen ever and great interviewers, they oftentimes struggle... [43:06] you [43:07] unconsciously struggle with each other in the interview, who's trying to lead it [43:12] you don't want that dynamic you want [43:13] an alpha interviewer and one that's not an alpha interviewer. [43:16] or one that can be [43:18] and let one play off the other. You don't want two that are constantly pushing. It doesn't work. It's chemistry. [43:24] um... [43:25] you [43:25] If it's two, if it's one, it's different. [43:28] But we had Brian Martin and Clint Hedrick work together all the time. Because Clint already has an office right down there in the city county building. So he's in there with those guys all every day. It has been for several years. [43:39] very good relationship, they get along great, they've interviewed many people together. [43:42] Because we had guys... [43:44] on the group, myself, Mark Kepfinger, who had got a ton of experience, done a ton of cold cases, got a lot of interviewing experience, [43:52] That's not the point. [43:54] Brian and Clint have [44:00] chemistry on interviews that works. It had been proven before. [44:03] So... [44:04] you guys are going to do it they both knew the case like the back of our hand and they were on that small group anyway but it's a perfect set up [44:11] So we... [44:13] We just discussed how are we going to approach...

[44:16] that's the kind of stuff we normally discuss what's the best way to approach it [44:20] We did quite a bit of surveillance just to get his pattern down so we knew where he was going to be at what time so we could approach correctly. [44:27] We did quite a bit of surveillance for a couple weeks, or a week there. [44:30] and got his habits and history down. [44:33] and then we [44:35] had set it up on that Sunday and they approached him that Sunday morning when he was third shift guy [44:40] He got off work and came home. [44:42] and um [44:43] Brian and Clint approached him [44:46] when he pulled up to front of these residents there in Grable. [44:49] that Sunday morning. [44:51] very politely, you know, "Hey, so here's who we are, [44:54] very non-aggressive style just in an unmarked vehicle [45:00] We'd like to talk to you, didn't tell him why. [45:03] if we could and [45:04] Would you be willing to come down and talk to us? Sure. [45:07] No questions. No, that's unusual. [45:10] You would think. [45:11] you at least ask what's it about [45:14] you know, then... [45:15] So... [45:16] trip down to Fort Wimpede downtown in the Indian River Room. The rest of us were there in the other room observing a bunch of us. [45:23] Couldn't have called him about her. [45:24] Miranda completely agreed to talk to us freely and [45:29] As has been reported in the news media several times, he [45:34] Thank you. [45:34] after Mirandaizing was [45:36] Thank you. [45:37] for fortunately everybody involved is the only [45:41] probably the only good thing John Miller ever did was at least [45:44] tell us what happened. [45:45] and was more than willing to do so.

[45:47] immediately was that you know one of the first questions that Brian asked him was you know why we're here? Yeah, it's probably about April Tinsley. You know that's [45:53] There was a... [45:56] for me but from the other people in the room I can [45:59] The problem will most likely have the same feeling. [46:02] That's a good feeling to have when that's the first thing he says because you know he's going to be cooperative. [46:07] When you ask him why we're here and he says April Tinsley. [46:10] You know he's going to tell you. [46:12] He's not guarded at all about it. [46:14] he's resided himself to the fact that if he ever, he probably has thought about this in the past, if he ever got in a situation, he's just going to tell them. [46:21] I'm sure he's thought about this a million times in 30 years. [46:24] So I get [46:25] He's going to talk. [46:26] and he did [46:27] So. [46:28] And what did, I mean, what, as much as you can tell us, what did he say? I mean... Well, he answered the questions we had. He admitted [46:36] the fact that he had kidnapped her, abducted her off the street, and killed her. [46:40] in basically the same day [46:43] and then eventually dumped her body up in DeKalb County. He just told us the details of what he did. [46:48] Did we know why? Did he know her? No, he had no connection to her. It was just an opportunity crime. [46:54] crime of opportunity. Was he planning on abducting somebody that day or just drove by and saw her? I mean, the indications we got from his interview was that he... [47:01] not [47:02] He wasn't planning on abducting somebody that day. He just... [47:05] he had, for lack of a better term, he had that desire inside of him to do that. [47:09] Not just on that day, but he just had it. [47:12] It's in him. [47:14] So I don't think it was planned. He didn't know her. We have no indication. He didn't tell us that. I don't believe he did either. I don't believe he had any indication she was going to be there. It just happened. He was just there at the time, and there she is.

[47:24] So [47:25] that you know like see the only good thing John Miller did was at least tell us what happened so we did the answer some questions [47:31] so [47:33] I mean, that was a great day. It was a horrible day. It was a great day, if you know what I mean. [47:38] Fortunately, he gave us everything we needed to know. [47:41] That's good. [47:42] answered a lot of questions for the family but doesn't [47:45] make it even the slightest bit easier. It never will get easier. It's always just, you know, the loss of kids [47:51] Unfortunately, I've dealt with a lot of parents that have lost kids through many ways, traffic accidents, homicides, natural deaths, whatever, but it's... [48:00] I don't think there's even... being a parent, I don't believe there's an argument. It is probably the worst thing you could ever go through is to lose a child. I don't think there's anything worse than having to deal with that. [48:10] so it doesn't make it easier on them but it [48:13] I'm sure it certainly is at least welcomed that there's maybe some justice now. [48:18] and there has been. The prosecutor's office did a great job [48:22] got a, in my opinion, a very [48:25] appropriate plea [48:29] for John considering age. [48:31] health, etc. and he's a little older than me, he's 57 or 8 or 9 somewhere in that ballpark. [48:36] you know, basically got a 40 year sentence [48:38] Okay [48:39] Um... [48:40] I know there was some discussion about the death penalty, there's a lot of [48:44] A lot of things that have to go into that. [48:46] A lot of things to think about. And I know it's very difficult for the family. I know they would like to see that. I certainly understand their side of it. [48:53] So, I mean, you could feel...

[48:56] I mean, when we arrested him on Sunday, and by Sunday afternoon, it had hit the news media that we had arrested. And as you can imagine, of course, we know it for two weeks, but nobody else did it. It just was a huge story. [49:08] and within two weeks was on [49:10] the Today Show and all because of the process and because [49:14] That case is a big one. [49:16] That case was, you know, NCMEC, the National Center for Missing in Children, is a [49:22] Amen. [49:23] that was way up on their radar for a long time the Iportensley case was. They had [49:28] provided some funding to help investigate that case. [49:32] So that was in one of their top tier cases unsolved for years. [49:40] a couple, three weeks before that, [49:43] the case with the disc jockey in Pennsylvania broke, using the same process before us, and we were right in the middle of ours. [49:51] So in that case... [49:54] was the first case. The ones out in Washington got very moderate [49:58] almost regional attention. You had to know what you were looking for to find the story. [50:02] The one in Pennsylvania got national news. And we were right at it. So now it's on the radar of all these national news stations that this new process is out there. [50:11] there's some concern about it. People are, you know, there's some... [50:14] privacy rights people are up in arms about it and there's some concern [50:19] But it's [50:20] Unbelievably powerful. [50:22] It's solving cases that nobody else could solve. [50:25] um [50:26] it just it really hit the media big mhm

[50:30] And you could sense in the Fort Wayne area the next couple days because it was, I mean, with WoWO being a huge AM station up there in the... [50:39] the overall span that they get with news coverage and stuff locally [50:43] it was just constant news coverage about it and on the local TV stations. You could really feel... [50:50] um... [50:51] the relief of the community just in general. [50:54] I had so many people that came up to me and said, "Man, you know." They had no connection to the case. I mean, none. [51:01] people from the smaller towns around Angola where I'm at. [51:05] that didn't really know that much about the case other than what they saw on TV. I mean they would almost be in tears talking about how glad they were that we got the guy. [51:12] So that was a good feeling in Fort Wayne. [51:15] And then, of course, it got... [51:16] to the national level [51:18] Um... [51:20] A lot of that's because of the process that was used. [51:23] And now he's got some traction. Now everybody wants to know how does this work and how is this going to, you know, [51:28] Joseph DeAngelo, okay we got the Golden State Killer doing this, we got the guy in Pennsylvania, and now the third one, big one in the nation, we got April Tinsley. [51:36] and then a few weeks later the one in Wisconsin and now there's been a couple more and then the [51:40] another one here in Indiana. [51:42] But... [51:43] It was really rolling. [51:45] So it's been... [51:47] Fascinating for me. [51:49] um [51:50] a lot of neat kind of a back story on [51:52] The Susie Hope deal. [51:54] That's very interesting. [51:57] side story for me [51:59] that she kind of [52:00] open my eyes to what was possible and I'm a little frustrated with myself

[52:05] Because... [52:06] I don't know why we didn't hear this out before. [52:09] You know, I don't know why a couple... [52:12] because I mean I [52:13] when I've presented this to, when I've trained a bunch of other people, a bunch of our people statewide now, and I've trained the Michigan State Police on it, [52:20] on how we did it and how the process in science works. [52:24] I was familiar with Ancestry.com back in 2011 or 12 I went on there and signed up and did not do the DNA, just did my thing, put the names and date of births in. [52:34] and kind of build a family tree on both sides for my parents wanted to know. [52:37] So I was familiar with [52:39] how it works and you get the little green leaf that pops up if it's a clue. [52:42] and I built my tree back into the 1600s on one side and as far as I could go on the other. [52:47] So I knew that worked. I'd never done the DNA thing. I knew they did it, but I didn't. [52:52] I'm a little disappointed I didn't put 2&2 together several years ago because it was out there. [52:56] It was available years ago. [52:59] probably five to seven years ago I bet we could have done this. I'm a little disappointed I didn't. I like to be ahead of things. [53:05] but [53:06] There wasn't hardly anybody else ahead of it either, so we weren't too far off. [53:10] fifth case in the country ever so we were pretty far ahead of the curve I still [53:15] which we would have thought of this in '12 or '13. Now the other thing about it is, if you listen to CeCe Moore, [53:20] And she went she was on 60 Minutes. [53:23] her interview, that was very interesting when she was on there. They asked her about that, [53:29] why hadn't this happened before? And she talked about [53:33] the fact that she didn't care for it when it was first presented to her.

[53:37] she was a private genealogist who found people [53:40] She cut her teeth and learned how to figure out who people are in the adoption business. People who are adopted would come to her and say, okay, I want to find my parents, and she would find them. [53:50] That's how she learned how to do this. She told me that on the phone. She said, I've done thousands of these on adoptions. But she told the people in 60 Minutes that, [53:57] When people first came to me about this several years ago and said, would you do this for us? Because she had her own TV show. [54:04] So that's why she got contacted, because she's a national expert on this. And she said, even she said... [54:09] I didn't care for it initially. I said no. [54:12] I think there's privacy issues involved. That's not what I do. I find people's families not...I'm not... [54:19] I don't solve crimes or find criminals, I just [54:23] She didn't care for it. [54:24] But then I.. [54:25] over time I think she realized it [54:28] look at the good it can do [54:30] if it's done correctly. [54:32] and you don't use the information incorrectly, [54:34] and you are very careful, make sure you have the right person [54:37] This can be [54:39] really positive. [54:40] and have very little, if any... [54:43] negative effect on other people. [54:45] because if you think about it, [54:48] um [54:50] she was able to identify to us [54:52] down to two people, two brothers. [54:57] um [54:57] And actually, there's a third brother, but he's deceased. [55:01] He was alive in '88 when it happened, but he was deceased, I believe in 2001.

[55:08] three years before the notes were left, [55:10] So we kind of by elimination, well, it's possible he could have been involved. [55:14] But most likely he did not because he wasn't even alive when the notes came out in the other DNA samples. So we kind of generally eliminated him because of that. [55:22] Amen. [55:22] there's very minimal harm done to the other brother. [55:26] I mean, it's... [55:27] It's difficult what he's gone through and he's been helpful to us, but it's tough. [55:32] but [55:33] Thank you. [55:35] We didn't, you know, there was no arrest involved with him. [55:38] at all. He was never charged. He was simply interviewed. [55:42] So there's very limited intrusion on the other people involved if the law enforcement does their job the right way. We just have to make sure we do it right. [55:49] So I think she realized, and we all do that now, as long as we do our job correctly, [55:53] it really doesn't do hardly any damage to anybody else but it does [55:57] can do a lot of good for the community. You find these people. [56:02] . [56:02] For decades, some cold cases have been reduced to files in a cabinet, but not anymore. I'm Ashley Flowers, and me and my team on the deck have been traveling across the country to report on these forgotten cases. And in some instances, it's resulted in these cases being solved after decades. [56:21] Join me every Wednesday as we revive these stories one card at a time. Listen to the deck now. [56:29] wherever you get your podcasts. [56:32] When you interviewed his brother, did his brother have any suspicions or was he shocked? No, I mean, everybody was shocked. I mean, John Miller's a very quiet guy who kind of kept to himself.

[56:42] lived by himself, [56:43] So there was... [56:46] no indication from the family that anything like this had gone on. [56:50] And he truly never did anything else. [56:52] not the world we're aware of [56:54] We ask. [56:56] So, not that we're aware of. [56:58] Did he say why he showed back up, like, to write the barn note and then to... [57:03] Um... [57:04] The bar note and the same reason. Both of those were done just to get some attention. [57:10] Hmm. [57:10] Generally, that's what he said. I mean, both of those things were done to get some attention. [57:15] He obviously enjoyed some of the attention. [57:18] So... [57:19] I mean, there's a big gap there between [57:22] I think the bar notes were found in 1990 and 2004, still 14 years. [57:27] and you wonder, you know what, but it, from what he told us in the interview, just [57:31] just looking for some attention. But fortunately for us, [57:35] He did in 2004 because we probably might not have been here otherwise. [57:38] It's crazy. [57:39] but [57:41] and there's a lot of interesting sidebars to that [57:43] just the case alone but the whole process is [57:47] is it's [57:48] It's unbelievably powerful. [57:50] what's available now, if it's done correctly. [57:53] Do you guys have any intention to use this in other? Well, every one that we can. [57:58] Everyone that we can. [58:00] That's awesome. [58:01] Yeah, I mean... [58:02] There's no reason not to. [58:05] as long as you [58:06] follow the rules and do it correctly [58:08] The legal challenges to it are going to be very minimal. [58:11] because of the way you do it.

[58:13] Um, [58:14] you know if you're going, if something [58:16] if somebody's going to challenge something in court, let's say a piece of evidence that's used [58:21] they have to have a reason to challenge, there have to be some [58:25] usually previous precedent set that would make it inadmissible or a new one that you might not foresee. But still, the thing in law enforcement just in general terms, [58:34] is you never want to go to a court [58:36] and get some type of a court [58:38] order like a search warrant or subpoena [58:41] Thank you. [58:41] The only way you ever do that is if the information you're providing them is 100% accurate to the best of your knowledge. [58:47] Okay. [58:48] um [58:49] And as long as you do that, [58:51] It's going to be admissible. [58:53] as long as you follow the rules. [58:55] um [58:56] in cases like this [58:58] Since it's new [59:00] The process is new. [59:02] and using a genealogy website, we don't know where that's going to go in the courts. [59:08] our attorneys and we felt comfortable that look it's a public free website and it says on it very clearly anyone who [59:17] has access, anybody can have access to this. So it's not like they're hiding it. [59:21] it's almost like if you just volunteer to give your information to [59:26] somebody else's website and you say, "Hey, this is public." [59:28] You give us your whole family tree and everything. Anybody can look at this, including the police. Okay, you can have it. [59:33] So if I go look, you can't really argue with me that I violated your rights of privacy because you gave them up. [59:40] So we felt comfortable there. [59:43] You never know what a court might say, but if you still stick within the normal parameters of law enforcement, what we think about as far as admissibility on evidence and can we use and can we not use this.

[59:53] If you go get a court order or a search warrant subpoena, [59:59] That's different than if you do a trash poll. [1:00:02] where it's abandoned, that's settled law, it's abandoned property. [1:00:05] the courts have said that [1:00:07] For years, that's been good to go. [1:00:09] So we know that's good to go. [1:00:11] So if you can obtain a DNA sample that way, do it that way. [1:00:16] because it really limits your opportunity for a court challenge against it, because the courts were decided that's prooffully legal. [1:00:21] Whereas if you would go, let's say we took all this genealogy information, [1:00:26] and put it into a search warrant without doing the trash poll and then went and got a search warrant based on genealogy information [1:00:32] Well, we don't know. It might be fine, but we don't know because it's new. A court might say, I don't like that. So don't risk that. [1:00:40] Just do what you know you can do legally. [1:00:42] even if you have to follow the person around and wait until he [1:00:45] throw their water bottle away. That's perfectly legal. We know that. So [1:00:49] If you just do it right and use your head... [1:00:52] using the rules of [1:00:53] of evidence that we have available to us [1:00:56] should be fine. So that's what we did and that's what we would always do. [1:01:00] Do you know if was it him that submitted his DNA or like how far removed was it? [1:01:05] I do know, off the top of my head, I can't remember, but there were members on both sides of his family, his mother and father's side, both, that somebody had submitted to GEDmatch directly. [1:01:15] It's got to be terrifying for people who, like, I mean, they should be terrified, but who did this? And even if they're not submitting their DNA, their families are going to out them. [1:01:22] here by the way.

[1:01:23] great [1:01:24] Yeah. [1:01:25] I mean it [1:01:26] I haven't had a single person yet come up to me and say, I don't like this. Not one. I know I've heard a few on the radio and a few on TV, but I have not had a single person in any community, and I spoke to people all over Indiana and Michigan about this now and some other places, [1:01:40] that came up and said, man, this is a bad idea. Everybody says this is awesome. [1:01:45] Yeah, for crime-selling. I think it could get to a weird place. [1:01:51] And this is not a new idea. I just, through research, I think... [1:01:55] Because the question is, what do we do? [1:01:58] Do we... [1:02:00] if you've noticed here in the past month, there's been somewhat a big development with [1:02:06] FamilyTree.com. [1:02:07] that entered into the agreement with the FBI. [1:02:09] Google that [1:02:11] for freedom. [1:02:12] They just entered into a formal agreement with the FBI. [1:02:16] to access some of their information. Okay, now that's interesting. [1:02:20] Because I wondered, where is this going? [1:02:23] GEDmash has 650,000 people in it. [1:02:26] small website. [1:02:27] As a genealogy website school, it's a little one. [1:02:30] And we're getting matches. [1:02:32] one after another on a jet match. [1:02:34] That tells you how powerful a small amount is. [1:02:36] Okay. [1:02:37] accessory.com, 23andMe. [1:02:40] 7 million people, 8 million people, those things. Ten times bigger. [1:02:43] Think about [1:02:44] I mean, that's 100% match, I guarantee it. That covers the whole country. I guarantee one of those covers everybody in the entire country, or some of these family members in their DNA. [1:02:53] could not hide from anybody in that. There's no way.

[1:02:55] So [1:02:56] We've got to be careful with that. But how do you... [1:02:59] It... [1:03:00] It's going to be upsetting to some people. [1:03:03] to say that's a private website. It's different. It's private. [1:03:06] You pay to be in that one. [1:03:09] I don't know why I want you to ask. I mean, there's a lot of things to talk about her, but look... [1:03:12] The idea has been floated. I think it's a great one. [1:03:15] What's wrong with just creating... [1:03:18] a free public website [1:03:19] Anybody that wants to help out law enforcement? [1:03:22] you would have millions of people put their information. There's half a million [1:03:26] sworn policemen in this country. [1:03:28] That's almost the size of GEDmatch. [1:03:29] You take all the other first responders, the firemen, the EMS people, the prosecutor's office, coroner's offices, all the retired law enforcement. [1:03:36] Anybody in the middle, anybody who... [1:03:38] And all the other general members of the public who want to be on the right side of things and say, you can have my DNA, here it is. [1:03:43] We would have millions of people on that thing in no time. [1:03:45] And you give me a website with... [1:03:47] Three million people in it. [1:03:48] I got everybody. [1:03:50] Thank you. [1:03:51] That's a good way to look at this, to do it, I think, because that way everybody's donating publicly and saying, please, I want to help. [1:03:58] I think that's a great way to look at this. I would love to see. I know there has been discussion before I said that. This is not a new idea. [1:04:04] about that. I would love to see that get some traction. [1:04:07] through maybe... [1:04:10] Nick Nick [1:04:11] some organization like that that's got a lot of credibility that already has some websites built that we hate. [1:04:17] If you want to do this, here's our site. [1:04:19] send a [1:04:21] The kits are generic. Get a DNA kit. We can send it in. We'll SNP format it.

[1:04:27] and we're going to upload your information with your permission and we're going to let law enforcement access it. And then law enforcement [1:04:32] can get our stuff tested on the S&P side as opposed to the SDR side. We can do both, but if we've got enough, we can do the S&P side. [1:04:39] and then we can just upload the results right into that website, and boom, it's going to tell us. It's going to give us family members. [1:04:46] We're very close family members. And then we've got to do the genealogy thing. We've got to have access to people who have the really good experience and are highly trained genealogists to narrow it down for us. [1:04:56] That's a skill. That is not for the weekend genealogist. That's for somebody who's a professional to make sure you're getting it right. [1:05:04] If you talk to Cece Morris, she'll tell you, you go into most people's family trees, there's mistakes in there. [1:05:09] they get it wrong [1:05:10] Mm-hmm. [1:05:11] because a lot of that information is based on other people's family trees. [1:05:15] See, they're using... [1:05:16] If I go in and build mine... [1:05:19] Ancestry.com then goes ahead and uses my information that I built [1:05:23] saying that these are my relatives... [1:05:25] they combine that with all these other family trees that are intermixed with mine and they'll use it for another person's, well, these three family trees show that [1:05:34] So this guy is probably related. She'll tell you there's mistakes in there because you've got people that aren't professional doing it. So that's why you have to be very careful and dot every I and cross every T. [1:05:43] You gotta look up the marriage records [1:05:45] birth records, census that you've got to... [1:05:47] Let's make sure this is the right person. [1:05:50] and these are their parents and then their grandparents, let's make sure. And that's why she is so good at it and the professionals need to do that. [1:05:56] Knowing that it takes such a professional, are you guys limited? I know you said you want to do this for as many cases as you can. Are you limited to how many you can submit? Is there, like, any process right now where people are going through and, like,

[1:06:06] cataloging all the cases this could apply to? Well, I know since I've been traveling around the state for the last... [1:06:11] eight months training our guys on this [1:06:13] um [1:06:14] everybody pretty much from our department and a lot of other departments now are aware of how this works and what they need [1:06:20] for their case to qualify, you've got to have extra sample. [1:06:23] So if you have a case where you've used up all the sample already, [1:06:27] It does not apply. You cannot use it in this case. [1:06:30] So that eliminates a lot of cases. [1:06:32] I mean, there's... [1:06:33] There's not going to be a ton of cases that this applies to right now the way we're using it. [1:06:39] Thank you. [1:06:40] our people know for the most part what [1:06:43] cases are going to [1:06:45] apply to it and what aren't. [1:06:48] at least by today's standards. [1:06:50] Some of that could change. And the question becomes, okay, how far... [1:06:53] for the most part we're using homicides and [1:06:56] you know, very serious crimes. [1:06:59] But... [1:07:00] [redacted address], [1:07:02] Burglaries. [1:07:03] Guy breaks... [1:07:04] into a house, breaks out of the window and cuts himself with two drops of blood. [1:07:08] okay [1:07:09] That's what we need. [1:07:10] We have a single source DNA sample. [1:07:13] In other words, there's only one person, single source. [1:07:15] We can SNP that. [1:07:17] put it in GEDmatch or maybe we have our own site by then [1:07:20] and it's going to tell us family members. So there's [1:07:23] I mean, I can see down the road... [1:07:25] where we can use it for a little bit lower level crimes because it's available and it's very effective. [1:07:31] Holy cow, it's ineffective, so... [1:07:34] crazy. [1:07:34] Combine that with CODIS and you've pretty much covered everybody now.

[1:07:39] It's just very interesting. [1:07:42] Are you guys planning to use it? [1:07:44] you know now that you have new cases you're getting a you have fresh evidence. Do you have to decide CODIS or 23andMe and [1:07:51] Well, those are questions that we're kicking around. I've had in my trainings with other officers and detectives and [1:07:59] That question has come up and we've talked about it. We'll see. There can be decisions made down the road that have to be made about that. [1:08:07] if we have a small amount, which way we test it. [1:08:10] those discussions are being had and I encourage all our guys statewide that if you get a case like this [1:08:16] You need to have a very serious discussion amongst the investigative group and the prosecutor's office about, okay, [1:08:22] If we have a very limited sample, [1:08:24] and we're going to use it up [1:08:25] Now, DNA, if it's strong DNA, like blood or something like that, where it's strong DNA, [1:08:31] We can do very small amounts and get a full profile on the STR side. [1:08:35] So I told him, I said, don't [1:08:37] Don't get too concerned about that because if you have a drop of blood, you've got enough, in my opinion, for both. [1:08:43] because it takes such a small amount to do SCR that [1:08:45] what's left over is going to be enough to do S&P. [1:08:48] But it's certainly a discussion to be had if you have a very small amount. [1:08:53] Where do we want to put our cards here? Which side are we going? [1:08:56] This site here is pretty interesting. [1:09:00] It's very powerful. [1:09:02] You look at the number of people it's covering compared to the number of people it's covering code, it's not even close. I guess my first response is, [1:09:09] This one works really well. I'm not sure if we need to bother right now. We can.

[1:09:13] I would take both, trust me. The more the better. [1:09:15] This one really works. We've proven that, and now it's been proven about six more times since ours. [1:09:20] Everybody knows now this thing works. [1:09:24] I can't thank Captain Smith enough for sitting down with me. I hope you all have enjoyed this update episode. It is wonderful to see what's coming for law enforcement. And I hope the future of law enforcement means a lot more update episodes like this. [1:09:54] brand new episode. [1:10:23] you [1:10:25] Crime Junkie is an audio Chuck production. So what do you think, Chuck? Do you approve? [1:10:34] Okay, Crime Junkies, you know, I absolutely love a twist and a turn, especially when it comes to people who turn out to be someone they're not. That's why I have been obsessed with the podcast Chameleon. Every Thursday, host Josh Dean deep dives into a scam so bizarre, it will leave you wondering, how did they get away with that?

[1:10:52] It is truly one of my favorite podcasts right now, and I've been listening for years. [1:10:56] I think you'll love it too. [1:10:57] Listen to Chameleon wherever you get your podcasts.