A Finals Pick, Greatest Knicks Ever, ‘Made’ N.Y.C. Stars, and Big NFL Trades With Max Kellerman

[00:00] *thud* [00:02] Thank you. [00:06] The Bill Simmons Podcast is brought to you by PayPal. We're also brought to you by the Ringer Podcast. [00:11] podcast network where we put up a new rewatchables on Sunday night. [00:15] It might have been the best one we've ever done. It's at least in the running. It was 2001 A Space Odyssey, me, Sean Fentany, [00:22] and the one and only Steven Spielberg. Just an incredible episode. We thought we were going to have him for like 75 minutes. He stayed for two hours and... [00:32] just put on a film school clinic for us. What a rush. What a great time. Claims he's coming back to do Jaws next year. We'll see, but [00:39] We love to have, and I'm really proud of that episode. So go check it out when you have a chance. We're going to have another Rewatchables episode this week. We have a mailbag. [00:48] coming on Thursday. So stay tuned for that one. I am going to be doing a podcast right after game one [00:54] tomorrow night. That's going to be live on Netflix. [00:58] Get ready for that as well. The Knicks are in the finals. Had to have Max Kahneman. [01:03] to just talk about football trades, the Knicks, Wemby, what should OKC do, greatest Knicks of all time. We tried to cover... [01:12] as many things as we possibly could. And you can check out Max as well on the Game Over podcast with [01:17] Max Cowerman and Rich Paul. So that's coming up next. We're going to take a break. [01:22] We're going to bring our friends from Pearl Jam. And then two hours with Max Kellerman. Next. [01:27] This episode of the Bill Simmons podcast is presented by PayPal.

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[03:14] Max Kellerman is here. We are recording on a Tuesday morning. [03:18] Pacific time. [03:20] A day before the New York Knicks are in the NBA Finals. [03:23] A day you never probably thought you'd see again in your lifetime. Had you given up? Getting to the finals? [03:27] possible. [03:28] Yeah. Winning the finals, something else. Impossible. We're going to talk about that. I have a whole bunch of next stuff for you, but I want to talk about football first, just because I didn't get a chance like. [03:37] The NBA, every time they think they have the stage... [03:39] They have Wemby coming in, vanquishing OKC. We have a Knicks-Spurs-Wet Dream Finals. The face of the league. Everyone loves him. Oh, my God. Worldwide sensation. [03:51] And the NFL is like, hold my beer. Versus the biggest market and like center of the known universe that is basketball starved. And that is, by the way, a basketball town above all things. Yeah. Perfect for the NBA. And they can get bumped off the back page. Hardest ticket in probably the history of New York sports in the NFL is like. [04:11] Two monster trades for you today. How about this? We're going to take it for one day from you. A buck thirty-five? [04:17] per seat, the first seats that sold. [04:19] $270,000 for two course. I was thinking about that. My dad was always in this, but like my dad in the 08 finals, [04:27] You know, since season tickets, it's 74 for the Celts. But... [04:31] It was bad for, I don't know, 15 years. They had one decent team. And then the 0-8 finals, they play the Lakers. And it's like... [04:39] it's a lot of money I could get for these tickets. I can basically pay for the last seven years. But it's like, well, what's the point of having the tickets if I'm not going to go to these games? But you do have to do the mental math for it. You got to go to at least one.

[04:51] I feel like you got to go to all, but I would understand if people sold. [04:54] Yeah. We never had season tickets growing up. It was always like, yeah, I got box seats. And I'm like, well, what are we doing up here? Well, when I was a kid, box seats, man, sat down there. So, so like I was a bleacher creature. Yeah. [05:06] Um, [05:07] football. [05:08] Miles Garrett. Yeah. [05:10] for Jared verse a one, a two and a three and three different years. Um, [05:14] in a lot of ways, a much bigger trade than Parsons, because Jared Burst is awesome. [05:19] I was kind of stunned by this one. The Rams... [05:24] They're zagging every year. They're always trying to, everyone's doing this. [05:29] We're doing this. We don't care about first-round picks, whatever. We'll just try to pick up guys later in the draft. [05:34] We're going to go in over and over again on these guys in their prime. [05:37] And it's mostly work. They won a Super Bowl. They're always relevant. They always feel like they're one of the five or six best teams ever. [05:44] I wanted to hate this trade for them. [05:47] Because it was like, man, first is really good. Like, is that upgrade worth all you're giving up? But then I kept thinking back to all the Browns games I watched the last couple years, especially last year. He's just, Garrett's getting double teamed. [06:01] And the line is just going backwards anyway. He makes everyone better. Yeah. But versus, look, when I first heard about the trade, I just assumed it was draft picks. [06:08] I'm like, oh, they gave up this, this, this. Oh, wait, and verse? [06:11] And verse... [06:13] got to do it if you're the ramps. Yeah. You must do it. First of all, [06:16] Miles Garrett's wearing the crown. [06:19] So there's a lineal champ in football, too, on the defensive side. It went from J.J. Watt.

[06:25] to Aaron Donald, [06:27] to Miles Garrett. This is the Miles Garrett defensive era right now. And he's in his prime. That's a fun championship belt, by the way. Reggie White had it for a few years. LT. Yeah. Reggie White. Bruce Smith popped in there. Yeah. Maybe between those two. [06:43] Um, yeah, there's like, it is. And every era has that guy. Occasionally it's like, well, yeah. [06:50] Khalil Mack never had it. This guy never had it. But actually, it was really always Aaron Donaldson. Maybe you can find a few years. But by and large, J.J. Watt, [06:59] Yeah. [07:00] Aaron Donald, Miles Garrett. [07:02] And I'm sure that that's not the first thing they had in mind. Hey, let's make verse into an even better player, right? Yeah. But if the opportunity presents itself to get a special player, you go all in, you figure out the rest later. [07:15] Especially with how close they were last year. That was a Super Bowl. No offense, Pats fans, but it was very clear sometimes. I take no offense. I'm not even sure we should have been in the Super Bowl. Out of the AFC, you're saying? I was talking to my buddy, Gus Ramsey, yesterday, who's a huge Broncos fan, and I was just like, I can't believe you guys didn't beat us. That Bo Nix thing was such a crazy end-of-the-game fluke, and I just... [07:41] Denver gets to 20 points if they have Bo Nix in that game. That's not a 10-7 game. No, but that's a pretty even match. It's like the junior varsity Rams-Seahawks. Right, right. Pretty even matchup could go either way. We couldn't block, though. No. The further I get away from the playoffs, I'm like, I can't believe we thought we were going to win the Super Bowl. Yeah, you went on it. Both sides of our line couldn't block. And then Seattle was like, oh, Will Campbell, we're going to attack this side, too. And they just destroyed us. And Drake may look like a deer in headlights in the Super Bowl.

[08:11] Okay, first things first. So [08:13] So this is what I love about what the Rams did. Yeah. [08:18] Is your faith misplaced? Yes or no? [08:21] Or have you put it in the right place? [08:23] Hey, I know what we'll do. [08:24] We'll trade for James Harden. That'll win us a championship and we'll give him everything he needs. Right? Misplaced faith. [08:30] especially when it comes out they could have had Drew Holiday instead. That is brutal. How did they decide on James Harden over Drew Holiday? [08:39] That's insane. I couldn't believe that. [08:42] So the Rams traits [08:44] Let's back up before Stafford. Yeah. They used a lot of draft capital to get Jared Goff. Yeah. Jared Goff, not just like we had the number one pick. Jared Goff represents multiple high level draft picks in order to move up to get Goff. And it worked. You made a Super Bowl. Yeah. But you didn't win a Super Bowl. [09:02] So then you put even more draft capital, multiple high end picks to turn golf into Stafford thinking that is the difference between making and winning a Superbowl. And it worked and they were right. And it almost worked twice. Right. So like, [09:20] Is the faith placed in the right place? Matthew Stafford. Would they give up for Devontae? [09:24] Was that second? [09:26] Yeah, it wasn't a first. Yeah, no. [09:29] I'd have to check that. They signed him. They signed Devontae. I knew it wasn't a first. They signed Devontae. [09:36] But like that is when you think about. [09:39] What that took to get Stafford, the draft capital, people would say you're insane. They won a Super Bowl. They came this close to winning another Super Bowl. So you have a two-year window right now.

[09:48] And who knows if he'll be good two years from now. They also really, they draft well in the later rounds, which I wonder, like, when you know you don't have picks... [09:56] you're basically crossing off the first 30 guys on the board, right? And you're spending way more time on the next level of guys. If you're good at that. That's how you get at like Puka Nakua. [10:05] If you're good at that, you can trade draft picks. Yeah. Right? They've been good. [10:09] And then even the McDuffie thing is like, [10:13] They'll be better there. [10:14] I forgot they did that. They'll be better there than they were. Like the real, the real separation. Okay. Special teams. Seahawks had a big advantage going into the Superbowl and the secondary Seahawks had an advantage. [10:24] Well, the secondary is kind of shored up now. [10:27] And then you add Miles Garrett, like, [10:30] Even if it doesn't work, it's worth the shot. Like, take a swing. That is a swing worth taking. Well, I was like, we're old enough to remember when this... [10:37] Moves like this over the years, when you put a guy that [10:42] Couldn't get over the hump and also wasn't getting enough attention for how great he was. And then you put him on the right team. [10:48] in a big city. [10:49] with a chance to win, you always get the bump. You get the bump. With Stafford, it was so unclear. It was like, he's always... [10:55] considered top five arm talent, right? But then after he got to the point in his career where it really wasn't clear, he's [11:03] Usually a great quarterback, even in a bad organization, keeps you at a certain level. He did for a while, but not always. It was like, well... [11:10] Is Stafford a little overrated by the real football heads or is this just a bad situation for him? [11:16] Stafford is [11:17] That's Trevor Lawrence now. Yeah. It was the same thing where the nerds were saying he was better than he was, but the eye test was like, all right, well, where is it? And then he finally made the playoffs. But Stafford, I could never figure out because-

[11:30] He's on the Lions, the worst football team of, you know, run franchise. But he did have receivers. [11:36] So it was always like, what is this guy? Yeah. It always seemed like he was getting the shit kicked out of him. But he put up numbers. He did. Yeah. But there was a point I remember when it was like, he's going to be a Hall of Famer someday. And, and. [11:47] The counter is like, really? [11:49] Matthew Stafford? I mean, now it's a surefire hole. Now it's a surefire hole. And even to win that Super Bowl, you think about, I think we've discussed this [11:57] here, but [11:59] When Brady is defending the title in Tampa and he leads the team down and scores at the end of the game, [12:06] The reason Brady wins all those championships, the reason guys like Kobe and these guys won a lot of games like, [12:13] you think about like the Sacramento game with the Lakers is because everyone on the court believes that, [12:19] That that guy is destined to win. Right. Kind of what the Knicks have. With Jalen Brunson. Stumbled into with Brunson. So they just feel like if we can hang around. That guy. That guy. But does the other team believe it too? Yeah. Brady's on the field. Everyone. Both teams believe it. Yeah. And like, okay, here comes. Like they win now. And Stafford drove him right back down the field. [12:40] and won the game and then went on to win the Super Bowl. He's a special guy. Like to overcome that kind of stuff. That's it's like like Kurt Schilling, whatever you think about Kurt Schilling should be in the Hall of Fame, obviously. And and. [12:53] When guys like... [12:55] Brocious and Tino hit home runs at the end of games. That signals this ain't your year, especially 2001, 9-11, and in New York, and the Yankees are destined to win. But a guy like Curt Schilling is like, not so fast, right? Right. What was it? Destiny, whatever in destiny or...

[13:14] What do you have? It was like we're strippers or whatever. [13:18] Mystique and destiny or I forgot what two words it was, but everyone was using that in New York that the Yankees are going to win. Yeah. And the retort was – [13:28] Those are, you know. [13:30] That's all they want. I kind of still can't believe they didn't win that year. [13:33] Part of it was because Rivera got dinged up in the ninth, which was inconceivable in the moment. Actually, even worse than that. [13:42] Rivera, who's one of the best fielding players at his position of all time, turned around. Game was over. Double play ball. Turned around and threw it into center field. [13:51] Stuff like that happens. And then you bring the infield in and you get a little pop out. But the point is, when you have a guy like that on your team, it – [14:02] All that kind of team of destiny stuff on the other side goes away. Stafford's that kind of guy. He had to overcome Brady to do that. When Stafford has the ball late in the game, I thought the Rams were going to win the game late in the game, even though Seahawks you knew were a little bit better than them, but it's like they got Stafford. [14:18] The Miles Garrett piece. [14:20] Um, [14:22] I don't think most people know what he looks like. [14:24] Now, you could say this for most football players, [14:27] But like if... [14:28] I don't know, Carl Anthony Towns walked into a restaurant. Most people would know what he looks like because we see him on a basketball court. [14:34] Football players, for the most part, we don't know what they look like. I think people know what the quarterbacks look like. [14:39] You don't think they know what Garrett looks like? I think so. [14:42] I don't know, would my son know what he looks like? I'm just thinking the recognizability of

[14:48] First of all, he's had his helmet off on the field. We know famously. That's true. [14:51] So I think there's just a level of fame that he doesn't have that this Rams thing is going to immediately solve. He was this underground... [14:58] He's playing at Sunday, 1 o'clock ET. [15:01] getting the shit kicked out of his team's getting the shit kicked out of them every game basically [15:05] He's on one Thursday night football game a year, probably against the Steelers. [15:09] and maybe a crappy Monday night game. And then everyone is telling us how great he is, but... [15:14] Sometimes this happens. I remember this happened to Moss in the mid-2000s when [15:19] He just became irrelevant for like... [15:22] three years when when you're just on shitty teams year after year moss went from is he going to challenge jerry rice as the greatest wide out ever to which oh i guess debatable yeah at the time and then it was like well i guess that didn't happen and then it was like oh wait maybe it did happen when he went to new england [15:38] We got him for a fourth round pick. [15:42] But that's how bad he was on the Raiders. [15:45] I have him... [15:46] We might have talked about this. I have him second. [15:49] Yeah, who would be second over Moss? [15:51] I feel like Rice 1, Moss 2 is kind of set in stone. No question. People try to push the Torell Owens case every once in a while, and I [15:59] It's just like, doesn't team murdering matter? I love T.O., but... He murdered at least two teams, right? [16:05] Well, the thing, Atio gets a little bit of... Doesn't that matter? The chemistry stuff has to matter a tiny bit when you're talking about the greatest of the greats. Fine, but then you also have to give him credit for it. And this was... [16:15] trip me out when he plays in the Super Bowl.

[16:18] hurt. [16:19] With a broken leg. [16:20] He is the best player on his team. I think he had eight catches, seven or eight catches. He is arguably the best player in the game. We couldn't cover him. [16:28] And he was criticized heading into that game. It's he's a selfish player. And I was thinking, wait, this guy's rep is so bad in the media that playing with a broken leg, he's criticized for being selfish. And then he's the best player on the field. It was tough. It's about a lot to how annoying he was in the 2000s. But also how great he was. [16:47] The A.J. Brown piece has just a whiff of that because he was unhappy with the Eagles, but [16:52] watching from my TV in L.A., [16:55] He should have been unhappy. I didn't understand anything about their offense. So the Pats get him. Not last year. It was rumored for, I don't know, three months. It was pretty... [17:04] Once the Eagles started drafting receivers, it was pretty clear it was going to happen. They gave up a 28 first. I wish they had top 10 protected it, but they don't do it in football. Yeah, why don't they do this? They don't do it. Are they allowed to do it in football? They are allowed to do it. They just, you could have done it where it's like- Make it top 15 at least, right? Because if Drake May gets hurt, something happens. You wind up in the middle of the pack. That's the NFL. Well, it was interesting that they didn't make it 27 because I think- [17:27] If I'm the Patriots, I wouldn't have because of the schedule of Super Bowl hangover. [17:32] Um, [17:34] If you're going to stink in 27 or 28, 27 is probably the safer bet. You think that's the Pats? I figured that's the Eagles. I think that's the Pats. I figured that's the Eagles saying, all right, we don't want. [17:44] a late first round. It's practically like a second round pick. [17:48] Why don't we roll the dice and see maybe something happens in the next year or two? I think it was the Eagles because they're playing the percentages of what happens to –

[17:57] the team that loses the Super Bowl and gets the first place schedule and had everything go right here before. You think it's the Eagles wanting the next, yeah, I agree. I think the Eagles want, [18:07] Not this year. No, I think the Patriots wanted it to be 28th. [18:11] Because of some fear of 27. [18:14] what could happen. If I was the Eagles, I would have won in 27. Really? Yeah. No, I want 28, because the thing about A.J. Brown... [18:22] And this happened with Jalen Hurts. What was Hurts' big problem before they got Brown? Was that he couldn't see the middle of the field. Yeah. Right? Then you get a guy who, and like, is A.J. Brown a little past it? Yeah. He's probably not as good as he was a couple years ago. [18:34] But he's never. We don't know. They didn't throw him the ball. Yeah, right. You don't know. But he's also his age. It's the whole thing. He's never a guy who relied on speed. It's not like, oh, my God, A.J. Brown is a one on one matchup nightmare because he gets all this separation. He's a nightmare because he doesn't need separation. He's going to catch the ball. Right. So a guy like that who's tough, who can go across the middle of the whole thing. [18:55] makes a guy like Jalen Hurts go from, hey, is he going to work out to almost two times Super Bowl MVP? [19:02] And you got a guy like Drake May, who was in a version of the situation Hertz was in. He looked lost in the Super Bowl. You get a receiver like that, and that could make it that can easily have him taking the next step, especially in the moment of truth. [19:16] There's a lot of good stats with A.J. Brown against man-to-man where he's basically like [19:21] The most unstoppable guy in the league. Yeah, because that was the biggest issue with the Pats. None of the receivers could get open as the year went on.

[19:28] You could feel it. And then in the playoffs, when they start going against these awesome defenses, they [19:32] Not to make excuses for Drake because he – [19:36] I don't think he was healthy, but he was also really bad in the Super Bowl. But then they do that all 22 shots, and you watch what he's looking at. Yeah. [19:43] And everybody's just blanketed. They would have like the straight line guys open. [19:47] Then every once in a while digs, but it really, the second half of the year wasn't open as much. But that's the thing about Adrian Brown. He's kind of never open, but he's always open. Yeah. Like wherever he is, you can throw him the ball and there's a good shot. He's going to catch it. And that. [20:00] That is like the perfect player. [20:02] For a young quarterback who needs to take a step forward. He had 145 targets in 22 and 158 in 23. [20:11] And then the last two years was 97 and 121. And it added up when you watched it because – [20:17] And I get it. Like they were doing that weird math thing with the possessions where it was like, we're going to shorten the game because we have a better team. [20:23] Every play felt like it was 35, 40 seconds, and the pace of the team just seemed way off. [20:29] But if I'm AJ Brown, I'm... [20:31] He clearly got fed up with it. Now he's on this Patriots team that desperately needs him. He's going to have Dobbs next to him. They have a bunch of young receivers. The offensive line's... [20:41] Okay. [20:43] It's going to be slightly better. The Eagles just had... [20:46] Their offense was ridiculous last year. Yeah. Right. There was no real reason for, I mean, you can, you, you could try to rationalize. It was a bad idea. And in the empirically, it was a bad idea. Right. [20:57] Well, which part? Like how? Because to me, it's like you're going to pay $50 million a year to Hertz, and you're going to pay $60 million to two receivers to...

[21:06] And then you're basically going to walk the ball up the court. [21:09] You've built this team that's supposed to do this. That dominates both sides of the line. Yeah, and now you're playing a different style than the team you built, which I never really fully understood. I know it's frustrating with the Philly fans. So the best case – [21:22] And he's a variable guy, which we... [21:24] is a big piece of this. Fraybo loves his guys. [21:27] Rable needed this, by the way. [21:31] He needed something good to happen. [21:34] he got AJ it was all worth it yeah you know it's been two weeks without a story and now he's got AJ Brown that's good when coaches should go get their guys yeah [21:45] Well, I was looking at the wide receiver trades because – [21:49] Best case was Moss. When it gets in trouble... [21:52] When you give up big capital, like a first-round pick, the Cowboys gave up two for Joey Galloway that year, and he immediately got hurt. [22:00] Roy Williams, Percy Harvin, people like that. That's where you get into trouble. You don't get into trouble when you're getting one of the best receivers in the league. Actually, everyone thinks that like forever now, it's like, [22:11] Quarterback's the most important guy, obviously, right? And then everyone's thinking, well, then his protection is this left tackle. And then it's defensive end off the right side to go past rusher because that – and that – no, it's actually quarterback 1-1A. [22:26] is a legit elite receiver. [22:28] At least one. A. It's so much more valuable than every other position. That's what the league is now. By the way, you bring up...

[22:38] Randy Moss. [22:39] When the Giants got Plaxico Burris, they won the Super Bowl. [22:43] Then the next year, he literally shoots himself in the foot, right? And they don't have plexiglass. And I'm thinking at the time, well, no one receiver. No, it was night and day difference, right? Like when you have an actual player, [22:54] elite top five guy [22:57] top 10 guy. [22:59] It's other than the quarterback, the most important position on the field. But a lot of the 11 Giants so annoying to me. [23:05] You didn't even have that. [23:07] Their second Giants Super Bowl. No, we didn't have that, but we had some good receivers. Terrible loss. [23:13] To me, that loss is much worse for me as a Pats fan than 07. Can I tell you? 07, they beat us. [23:20] That second one, 11's ridiculous. That second one was so amazing as a Giants fan. I was more exhausted than... [23:28] After watching that game than I remember at any point in my life, because when I could have stole the Superbowl, you didn't have a better team. [23:36] I could imagine a little kid growing up in Boston somewhere watching that game. And all he knows, his first memory is that they somehow, the perfect season, they're about to be anointed. Greatest team in the history of sports, right? Yeah. And they somehow lose in the most unlikely way, like the Tyreek Hatch. Yeah, yeah. [23:55] It's happening again. [23:58] Again. It's like a train wreck for a Patriots fan. Did you go to that game? I did not. [24:04] I went to that game from the moment Brady had the safety on the intentional grounding that I'm still don't know how that was the call.

[24:11] And the game was just off. We had Grok on one leg. [24:15] The Giants, who was it, Brandon Jacobs? It was just a weird Giants offense. It was a lot of like, the score was always weird the whole game. It was like one of those games where it was like 15 to 12. You let them score intentionally. Yeah, every piece of that game was kind of off. [24:32] And then the Manning head, like you hear Belichick say, and this is what Belichick did at his best. Take away your first and second option. Beat us with your third option. He did. Like that's okay. I was in the end zone where Eli had that throw. Yeah. [24:47] The throw is incredible. Yes, it's one of the best throws ever. I think he, what was he on, like his own eight or his own nine? I don't remember. But he just like, it was a fucking frozen rope. It was unbelievable. 35 yards. Catching the guy like this in the one spot where he could get it. And that's, if you're making the Eli Hall of Fame case, [25:04] Which I do. [25:05] It's whatever he was doing on that last Giants drive, even though he tried to throw it to us three times. It was. But he was scrambling for his life and just. [25:14] creating shit and it somehow worked. And then that Manningham throw up. [25:18] The same reason that Peyton... [25:20] a lot of his career was bad in the playoffs is because when you are the chosen one and you are expected to be perfect, right? [25:27] Man, there's a lot on the line in those moments. When you're his kid brother, it's like, if I fail, big deal. So why not go for it, right? Like there's no fear of failure for a guy like Eli. [25:39] Do you think, now that we have Dart,

[25:42] you [25:42] It's the face of the Giants. Does he get compared to Eli, or is it too far gone now? He's more talented. Yeah. You know, it's a different game now, but no. I mean, I... [25:53] Eli's just kind of over here. [25:56] He's a Hall of Famer. First of all, he had an Iron Man streak. [25:59] He was playing in bad weather city, like for the, with the wind and everything at like Meadowlands was not. So that's the real Hall of Fame case is him in the playoff games. [26:08] The freezing cold in Lambeau, the candlestick. Twice against Favre and Rodgers. And taken huge, huge, huge punishment. [26:17] He was tough as nails. The toughest motherfucker. And that's. [26:20] I don't... See, I have trouble with the Hall of Fame in general because I feel like we've just... [26:26] increase the capacity of the restaurant to ridiculous. Yeah. [26:29] It's just the best muffin ruined now. But it's inevitable because once a stool, whoever the worst guy is who gets in. [26:36] That will now be the benchmark. And people say, well, he's better than this guy. Why isn't he in? I'll do respect to Michael Cooper, but that's where the NBA Hall of Fame is now. Like Michael Cooper's in. So if you go through the Knicks team right now, it's like, who could make the Hall of Fame from the Knicks? It's like, who wouldn't make the Hall of Fame from the Knicks? You've got three starters who could do it. Yeah. I mean, Towns is probably a Hall of Famer at this point. And it's nuts. Brunson? Yeah, Brunson definitely. And then the question would be OG. [26:59] If OG could stay healthy for a couple of years. And then it's like, what if Mikael Bridges plays... [27:04] 1700 games and is the number four guy on a title team yeah i think i don't know anymore i don't know what a hall favor is but but you have to like cooper you could hang your hat on something that defined him at a certain awesome role player right like you know so i

[27:18] But although if Bridges keeps playing, he's two different guys, regular season playoffs. He's like during the regular season, it's like you five first on that. Are you out of your mind? He's a nice three and D guy. But that's it. Three and D plus. Halfway through the Atlanta series, it seemed like a catastrophe. Every playoffs, he's like this stuff. Like his defense is unbelievable. He's hitting shots. He was great on Maxey. I love how he figured out how to play with Brunson and Towns in the playoffs for some reason. It clicked. [27:48] in the right spots. Because he changed the way they use towns, really. That's the whole thing. [27:52] We got to talk about that finals. We're going to take one break. [27:55] and hit the funds. [27:56] All right, the 2026 NBA Finals is here. New York. [28:00] San Antonio, we're going to make some picks. [28:03] I am going to probably share... [28:06] Picks for at least a few of the games on my Twitter feed from FanDuel Sportsbook. For the series, though, since we're doing this on a Tuesday. [28:15] I like the Spurs to win the series. I like the Spurs in six, which is five to one odds. But I think the Spurs would be my series pick as well. I wouldn't mess with the... Wembediyama is almost definitely the finals MVP. You're just better off. [28:29] taking the Spurs money line at that point. So, [28:33] Game to game, I would definitely take San Antonio in game one. [28:37] And then we'll see how it goes. Usually home team wins game one. [28:41] Game 2 becomes... [28:43] a little bit of a test her out slugfest. When I bet, I bet with FanDuel. It's a brand I trust. Easy to build NBA bets on FanDuel as well and find futures, all kinds of things you want to do. You're getting great odds. Payouts in your parlays, boosts every day. Get your winnings instantly. FanDuel is a good thing.

[29:00] Play your game. [29:01] This episode is brought to you by Expedia. Family vacations are great. My favorite family vacation ever. I went to cover the 2012... [29:10] Olympics. [29:12] in London. [29:13] And I brought my family. My son was five. My daughter was seven. And we were in London for three weeks. And we went to Paris for another week. And it was just awesome. [29:22] Our kids were the right age to travel. [29:25] That's my number one family vacation I've ever had. But we've had plenty of those trips where everyone's excited, but you hit the planning part. Suddenly, it feels like there's too many movie pieces. You start talking yourself out of it. [29:36] Can't find the right flight. Can't find the right hotel. That's why Expedia is a total game changer. Flights, hotels, vacation rentals, [29:43] cars, activities, everything's in one spot, which makes the whole process way easier. [29:49] And the bundle and save feature [29:51] This is huge. [29:52] The more you bundle, the more you can save because you can book what you need now, add more later. [29:57] Keep saving on the way. [29:59] Book your flight today, attach your hotel tomorrow, and you're still good. [30:02] So if you're thinking about your next family getaway, bundle your flights, cars, hotels, vacation rentals, [30:08] and save. [30:09] Savings varied, members only. [30:12] Book your next trip with Expedia. Did you know about one in three people with plaque psoriasis may also develop psoriatic arthritis, which causes joint pain, stiffness, and swelling? [30:23] Does this sound like you? [30:26] Listen to what it sounds like to be a million miles away.

[30:56] Tell your doctor if you have an infection, flu-like symptoms, or if you need a vaccine. [31:02] Imagine being a million miles away. Explore what's possible. Ask your doctor about Trimphia. Tap this ad to learn more about Trimphia, including important safety information. [31:14] This episode is brought to you by Boar's Head. What if we told you the taste of deep fried turkey is now available at your local deli? Well, Boar's Head just did that. Bursting with flavor, perfectly seasoned with that indulgent taste that usually means planning your whole day around it. [31:28] Presenting the Friars Turkey Breast only from Boar's Head. [31:31] Backyard tradition now available behind the counter. [31:34] Visit your local deli today. Discover the craftsmanship behind every bite. Boar's Head, committed to craft since 1905. [31:42] today. Who are you picking for the finals? This close to taking the Knicks. [31:49] They check a lot of boxes for the nobody believes in us pick. [31:52] They're like maybe one guy short on the bench right now, but it doesn't. I wish we don't know the Robinson situation. [31:59] That's the whole thing. He's really their sixth man. He doesn't, but he's really. You've seven guys. Yeah. Including Robinson. Yeah. Yeah. [32:07] I sham it and him off the bench McBride. We'll see. We'll see what McBride looks like again. I know, but we'll see what he looks like against San Antonio. Yeah. Um, [32:16] Robinson you need for because you need fouls and he's also a great playoff performer. [32:22] Like he's really is a great defensive guys. You don't always think of like that, but like watch him play in the playoffs. You go championship player. I want him on my team. He's Wemby kryptonite too, because Zach and I talked about this a little on Saturday.

[32:36] The way to kind of hit, and Hartenstein did a little bit in the last series, but when Wemby's playing that box in one zone, whatever the fuck he's doing, and he's, especially with Brunson, where they'll have guys on Brunson and then Wemby kind of shifting over. [32:50] and you leave the back of the basket open. And that's like Mitch's specialty. It's like, you're not going to box me out. I'm just going to get 10 offensive rebounds. [32:57] That was what OKC, anytime they felt like they had momentum, it was on the... [33:01] offensive board. They need Mitch for that for anything. Knicks are good on the offensive glass. Yeah. OG would be the other one. [33:08] Knicks seem like they're healthy, except for Robinson. [33:11] the, [33:12] That's a huge part of it too, by the way. That's a huge part of it. Like health this time of year, they happen to be very healthy right now. Well, not playing basketball always helps. No question. You just like get in the nine days off. And as the road team. [33:28] If you have a long layoff, I hate to have home court. [33:32] You could give it up game one before you get that out of your system, you know, the rust gun. But if you're on the road, so what? You lose game one. [33:39] Now you're rested. You have a good shot at splitting on the road and taking home court. So it's like kind of working out in their favor. And they beat them in the cup on a neutral site. They came a possession away from beating them in San Antonio. They have a way of playing this first. The teams are even. They're even. Because the Knicks slow it up. And when they have their version of the death team, [34:00] lineup on the floor. [34:02] They can hit shots late in the clock. So they're slowing up the pace and scoring late in the clock. And that kind of stymies the Spurs offense, I think.

[34:11] Here's what I'm going to pick this first. [34:14] Here's what I think really hurts the Knicks in this series is all the layoffs between the games. [34:19] Because they have this 22111 schedule, and they've spaced stuff out. And I think that's really helpful to Wemby. 100%. I felt like in the OKC series... [34:28] it was a constant battle of, [34:30] There were just games where he just seemed like he was dead. Know why they won the series? Because they could play him 28 minutes in game six. Right. If he had to play 34, 38 minutes in game six, they may have lost. That double overtime game in game one, which just wreaked havoc on both rosters, but you could really feel it. I just think, especially after seeing him in person a couple of times, and you've seen him in person too, right? Yep. [34:56] It's just he's not really meant to run up and down a basketball court. Like that's not what God created a 7'7 guy to do is just run up and down on a wooden floor like that. [35:06] And he does it and he's about as graceful as you can. Like him and Kareem are the two tall guys I've ever seen. [35:12] who seemed graceful as they went up and down. But he started for around 42, 43 minutes, [35:17] all the stuff he has to do defensively, all the hard rolls they do with him to kind of create three points. And it's just, [35:24] Even the way he closes out, like he'll close out. The play is lost. Like the guy's going to hit the shot. But just because Wemby gives the effort to close out and put his hand up, [35:33] I'd love to know what the numbers are. I'll bet you shooting percentages get cut in half. You have a guy shooting a three. Wemby's just, he's not in position. He's not going to get there in time. But just the fact that he can kind of blot out the sun, like you can't see the basket. At the last second, guys who you expect to hit the shot don't hit the shot. There was a great clip that somebody took a chat in game six.

[35:57] We're in the same possession. He tried to challenge Wemby twice and just kind of bailed on it the second time. It was like, okay, like he was going to take a three from the corner and, [36:06] And part of the problem with Chet in that series was he's got one of those long developing jumpers. [36:10] And Wemby was always able to come out and challenge it. So then he decided, all right, I'm going to take him off the dribble. And he beat him off the dribble. [36:16] Did a spin move and it's like, oh, he's going to block this. And he just kind of bailed and... [36:21] That's seven foot one. He's not used to be like he's, you know, it's like, why can't a lefty hit a lefty? Because they never see the lefties. Right. Right. When does Chet see a guy who's him, but three, four inches taller? And you got to credit Wemby. I love this about Wemby. When he threw that elbow. [36:37] Exactly. If a guy's hitting you low and the ref doesn't do anything about it, hit him low back. Do it harder. Right. He'll get the message. Wemby swung that elbow and it changed a little bit the way they were playing him. Right. Oh, excuse me. And the elbow helped. And then when he ordered his team, he ordered the code red. Yep. Code red. He did. It was a little fuck you from Wemby. You want him on that line. Yeah. So like, yeah, like can't handle the truth. [37:02] And he has this thing in him where he looks at everyone's like, [37:06] Well, it's come from when we were kids and Cech got MVP of this. [37:11] tournament. [37:12] Wemby sees Chet. [37:14] He sees the team he's on. He knows what. [37:17] That's my guy. That's my rival. [37:19] And he let him know at every point. [37:22] Chance. I own you. [37:24] To the point where Chet started believing it. [37:27] Right. Like everyone's writing Chet off now, but I don't know. He could learn from this. Like you could he could actually grow from it. But he got his heart like when Wemby took his heart and everyone, the whole world saw it. Right. So he did that intentionally. He knew like, that's my guy. I got it. I got to make sure he knows he doesn't have a shot.

[37:45] We talked about it on Saturday night about the Drexler-Jordan matchup. [37:50] That was a little like that too, where Jordan... [37:52] you know the people like these guys who's better and that was the real thing that was happening for about a week and then jordan was just like all right i've had enough of this he took it personally um [38:03] Yeah, so... [38:04] The reason I'm picking... [38:06] All due respect to the Knicks, and they do check a lot of my Nobody Believes in Us. The Robinson thing worries me. [38:12] I do think they have a really good team. [38:15] to play the Knicks. Like if you were creating a team to kind of stop Brunson, especially in the fourth quarter, you would say, [38:21] You want... [38:22] these defensive guards and swings that could switch. [38:27] combined with this big tall guy in the back to challenge all like the 12 to 15 footer stuff. [38:32] I just think it's a bad matchup. So the way for the Knicks to beat them, obviously, is hope Wemby wears down. Hope this first three-point shooting isn't there. [38:41] Hope the crowd is going to come through in your home games. And then just get an awesome OG player. [38:47] Bridges combo. [38:49] If Josh Hart is hitting from outside, it's a hard beat. You know that's going to happen in one of the games. The question is how many times it's going to happen. And then can you get the offensive rebounds? I see the path for it. [39:03] I just think this is like a generational thing now. [39:06] And I'm not going against it. And I felt the whole year, I was like, are the Spurs, really since December, are they the 90 Bulls or the 91 Bulls? And I think they're telling us they're the 91 Bulls. Well, first of all,

[39:19] The 90 Bulls were the best team in basketball. Pittman got a migraine in Game 7. Yeah. Right? Like, you know, otherwise, they probably – everyone's like, oh, Jordan had to win. No, he didn't. He needed one other all-star with him. He didn't – and then in Game 7, he didn't have him. You can't beat the champs by yourself. But they weren't dominant in the playoffs that year the way they were. No, no, you're right. They took a jump. But next year, they fucking destroyed everybody. But that was also baby Pittman. Like, Pittman made his first all-star game. [39:42] But he wasn't what he would be the next year. He became into his prime, right? 100%. I would say that I agree with you 100% about your analysis of why the Spurs would win. What got me thinking the Spurs, like I said all season, but from like the middle of the season, I said the Spurs are the best team in basketball. [40:00] They're going to win the championship. [40:02] But by the time the Knicks were finished playing them the third time, I thought, [40:06] If the Knicks come out of the East, they would have like a 40% shot of beating the Spurs. I think 40% is the right number. For what you identified, which is – and it occurred to me in Game 7, actually – [40:18] really the number one name is Castle. Castle and Harper are puppies. And they're even like out in front of themselves, like a puppy gets out in front of himself. But like they're... [40:28] purebred puppy. These guys are already dogs. They're already a problem. They don't even know what they're doing yet. They're overly exuberant on defense. They can wind up in foul trouble because of how they're bumping around out there. But because of Castle's size and his tenacity, [40:46] It's like you kind of don't want that [40:48] overgrown

[40:50] you know, [40:51] eager puppy to, [40:52] At his size... [40:54] on these smaller Knicks players, you know, like, [40:58] Brunson. They could have him. They could have us put Champagny on him. They could have Vassell, who's taller. They're also like big, strong guys like Brunson. Yes, he's he's strong, but he's short. Mikael Bridges is not built like those other guys. It's like there's a there's a lot of kind of size and strength. [41:15] And like youthful exuberance on the perimeter defender types on the Spurs that I think are a bad matchup for the Knicks. [41:24] We talked about [41:25] on Saturday night mentioned on the podcast I did with Zach, we were like, what is Castle? I don't even know what he... [41:31] Who's the castle doppelganger? So a bunch of people sent emails to me. [41:36] These were the candidates. This is what got sent to me. [41:40] Guard Kawhi. Yeah, Kawhi. [41:43] More defensive Dwayne Wade. [41:45] More explosive Drew Holiday. That's a good one. [41:49] Um, [41:50] springier art test, [41:52] Ooh, that's, I hadn't even thought of Artest. That's a good one. Yeah, early Artest. But Artest could shoot. [41:57] for his time better than castle can shoot for it. Like, I don't know what the league averages are off the top of my head, but our test was a better shooter in his day than castle is in his. [42:08] guard Jimmy Butler. [42:10] Another good one. Latrell Sprewell. [42:14] Didn't really see that one, but it made me think. Well, Spree was a good defender. He was energetic. Yeah. But he was, and I guess I see that because he was also athletic defensively.

[42:23] leaper guy [42:25] who didn't shoot it especially well. [42:27] But I just get the feeling like Castle's going to be a shooter, a good enough shooter when it's all said and done. [42:32] Better offense, Marcus Smart. [42:36] and Heinz Ward. Those were all the comparisons I got from all these very similar... Like a basketball player. Just like how Heinz Ward was just like... He's a football player. I'm a good athlete. I'm physical. I can do everything. He's not just a receiver. He's a football player. I can block. I can do in traffic. I like... Who did you say who was second to last... [42:53] Marcus Smart [42:54] That's interesting if smart were... [42:57] bigger and [42:59] I think he's a better offensive player and a better athlete than Marcus Smart was. But I like the way younger Marcus Smart, how balls to the wall he was all the time, which I think Castle has. [43:10] Also, one of the things I love about Castle and this first team in general is [43:14] they don't seem to wear mistakes in their eyes. [43:17] or like bad shooting or get psyched out or value possessions, they just kind of go short memories. Yeah. When you're talking about like puppies, purebred puppies, like they're just kind of running around and they don't, [43:29] they don't really carry their past with them. And it's like, that's why you say are they 90 or 91 bulls? And my, like the way I interpret that is, [43:37] is that [43:38] short memory and like is that gonna go too much on the side of not valuing the possessions in crunch time because they just go yeah or is that actually good for them because they don't worry about it and if they don't score on that possession or they turn the ball live turnover and it leads to two or three points they're fine it's gone and they're gonna do it again and because they're so aggressive sometimes it's gonna work

[44:02] The other reason is, [44:04] I think I'm taking the Spurs and I don't feel great about it, but, um, [44:09] The competition in the East is, [44:11] It has to be said. They fall 2-1 Atlanta. They change their offense. I love the way they play. To me, they look like the 2014 Spurs crossed with whatever Brunson's doing. [44:23] Um, [44:24] But that Atlanta team, when you look back, [44:27] It's pretty brutal. Like they had like five guys like that were playable. They had one center. [44:33] He couldn't really rebound. McCollum died as the series went along. They had no [44:37] kind of guy who could calm the runs. They won two games by a point, though. Yeah, and they probably should have gotten swept. They play Philly the next round, and Bede's already done. Bede put one week of the season and he was done, right? Now all you do is shut down Maxie and you're good. [44:52] And then that Cleveland team, [44:54] They're just a mess. Well, yes. But the Knicks weren't... That game one loss was just one of the most egregious, blown... You knew it was a sweep after that. After that, it's a sweep. When you lose like that, it's a sweep. The coaching combined with them not running back, and they just rolled over. So you go from that, and meanwhile, here are the Spurs... [45:14] who are just going through this gauntlet. Even Portland was like, [45:19] They probably would have been like a 5 or a 6 seed in the East. They're a tough team, and they showed up. [45:26] Yeah, and... [45:27] I don't know, that OKC team they beat. I just, I take that seriously. I thought OKC was... [45:32] an incredible team. No Jalen Williams, really. Yeah, missing one of the best guys. Missing their second best player. Yeah. That's a lot.

[45:39] It's a lot to miss your second best player. Like if this, well... [45:43] The Spurs don't if the Spurs didn't have the Aaron Fox data lost. [45:47] The live ball turnovers were killing them. But that's the thing. So the Spurs didn't have Fox for a couple games, and then he didn't seem right really until game seven. [45:56] And then the Harper thing, Harper in the middle of the series is just useless. And then kind of came back as it went along. But... [46:03] Um, but I just think, I think the Spurs is 91 bulls. So I'm, [46:07] I'm going Spurs in five. The thing about the Knicks is, I think it's going to be a long series. I do think that. But the thing about the Knicks is, [46:14] They're not beating these teams by 10 or 12 points. I get it. You're feeding everybody into a wood chipper. [46:21] They are [46:23] destroying teams. They have two losses, each by a point. [46:27] And they're beating the brakes off of everyone. And the team that they are not compared to enough is the 2016, they did lose in the finals, [46:37] Warriors. They have a death lineup. Yeah. Except it's a better shoot. They don't have the two greatest shooters of all time in the death lineup. Right. When Josh Hart is hitting his shots, that's why I say if you want to look at a few key things, if Josh Hart is hot more often than he's cold in this series, he's hot. [46:57] The Knicks are virtually impossible to beat because, you know, [47:00] Because everyone, like all five guys are killing you at that point. Right. How do you guard that? Especially with. [47:07] the offense running through towns. Who's like not only the best shooting big ever, maybe, but he's also like,

[47:15] Kind of Jokic in a way that I didn't understand, right? I'm not saying he's as good as Jokic. I'm saying he's doing some of that stuff. It was impressive. So I think that's really what it comes down to. If Josh Hart is hot in this series, this is going seven games and the Knicks might win. You're probably right. I'm going to amend to Knicks in six. To the Spurs in six. I'm sorry, Spurs in six. Freudian slip. I'm going to amend to Spurs in six because you're right. I forgot to factor in the one Josh Hart game. That's it. [47:41] And if there could be two or three, five for seven from three or something. Right. So correct score. [47:47] Spurs in six is five to one. [47:50] That also sets up for the devastating... [47:54] Everyone at MSG trying to send the series to the seventh game and just the all time gut punch of. [48:00] By the way, this is an I. So why did you have Nixon six or seven? [48:04] If the Knicks win, it'll be a seven-game series, I think. [48:06] But by the way, what you said about Wemby, when you said about what you said about Wemby, [48:11] is the thing about him because he's so big so everything's magnified you can see all the detail is it's very apparent when he's fatigued right he looks uncoordinated all of a sudden he's like the most coordinated big guy you've ever seen in your life first of all you've never seen a guy that tall right but yeah he's so coordinated at that size and when he is fatigued you can see oh where's where'd the coordination go you know even on lobs and stuff he starts getting a little like almost like a little kid where little kids start falling down and right you know it's time for a [48:41] But the guy's physiology is just like, this is unexplored territory. And he is doing everything in his power to make, to give himself the best possible shot. But that schedule where there are essentially no travel days was brutal in the Western Conference finals for him. And more rest is good for Wemby. It's also why guys like LeBron, as they hit their late 30s, it just becomes impossible to put together four straight rounds to win a title.

[49:09] Definitely on the defensive end. You have to have younger players. And that's been the thing over and over again that we've seen this decade. [49:15] is the combination of how the regular season got much harder. It became harder just for guys to carry big minutes. But then you get into that every other day in the third round. You have to have the younger dudes for that. [49:30] So you have Knicks and seven. That would be eight to one. Let's talk about. I have not yet made my pick. I do think like I are going to make it on game over with Rich Paul. I think I will make it on game over. Do it. Do it. Make it. I would say that it's if I had to handicap it, I think it's a 60 40 type series favoring the Spurs. But 40 is a pretty damn good shot for the Knicks. And I have to think if I like their chances. [49:54] I bet on the Spurs for... [49:57] I had the Spurs before the series. [50:00] And after Game 5... [50:03] I did a hedge on OKC for game six because I thought the Harper Fox thing, I just didn't think those guys were there. And of course, San Antonio won. [50:11] Then I doubled down and bet on San Antonio game seven. Um, [50:16] Just because of the Wimby piece. And I think ultimately, like, [50:20] I was thinking about it. I was like, [50:22] I just think Wemby's the best player in the league now. And I don't want to go against him in a game seven. I've been saying this since, like, the All-Star break. Yeah, but you still – you have to do it in the playoffs. It's a different level. You got to see, like, the – [50:33] ebb and flow of the games, the fatigue, how do you handle foul trouble, how do you handle when the refs aren't giving you calls. But you know what he has? But now I think he's there. He's tasted it. That OKC thing was such good seasoning for this finals. Look, it's a hunch until you see him do it.

[50:50] Right. My hunch was he's the best player in the league, but you're right. You have to see him do it in this circumstance. But the thing about Wemby that I love that, like, I thought middle of the season, he's better than Jokic. Right. He's better than SGA. I don't think SGA is in the conversation with Jokic and Wemby, but he's better than Jokic is. [51:06] there's a floor to Wemby's game because of the defense, right? He can't really have a bad game ever. He's such a defensive presence. So when his offense is clicking, it's like, well, [51:18] He might, he's a very good chance if he stays healthy. Right, if he hits a couple threes and a couple turnarounds and gets some fouls. That's all it takes. But there's a good chance he winds up the greatest player of all time. But health is going to be a big thing just because we've never seen a guy this size before. Right? And the other thing about Jokic, Bill, is... [51:36] You're down two possessions in the playoffs. Your season's on the line. There's like two minutes left. [51:42] Okay, overcome it. [51:43] Right. And Jamal Murray was taken out of the series, who's normally a very clutch player because you have a six foot eight. [51:49] wing defensive specialist who's doing an unbelievable job on him. So now you have Gobert, who's also a great defensive player on Jokic, and it's like, [52:00] Okay, Jokic, do it though. It's two possessions. Can you make up two possessions in two minutes? We've seen this from super great players throughout history. And Rich and I play a game nowadays on the show. [52:12] where it's like, [52:14] Do you [52:15] Does this player need to win or does he love the game? [52:19] So for example, or love to play, need to win, love to play. For example, the player that best epitomizes needing to win and loving to play on the highest level possible is Magic Johnson. That dude, like Larry Bird needed to win more than he loved to play. Same thing with Michael Jordan, right? There are other guys who love to play more than they need to win. For example, Kevin Durant, right? Clearly loves to play. Does he need to win? It doesn't seem that way, right?

[52:49] of that. He doesn't need to win like that. [52:51] Um, [52:53] This was the LeBron issue for years. Yes. He loved to play more than he needed. I think LeBron does need to win, but not as much as he loves to play. 2011 finals. Then he flipped it. Yeah. [53:01] Jokic, I don't know if he's a basketball genius. I don't know if he loves to play or he needs to win. [53:08] I don't know if he has either. I know Wemby has both. [53:12] Jokic ripped through everybody in 23. Because he's got to get credit for that. He's among the greatest players of all time. I'm giving him loves to play. I think you guys are wrong. [53:21] Does he? Yeah, I think he does. He seems so pissed off at the press conference. I just think that's his personality. He's from fucking Serbia. He is. Listen, his basketball brain... [53:30] could be studied. It's ridiculous. He's LeBron James, Larry Bird, Magic Johnson. I'd move him more toward... [53:37] a problem that was a problem for Shaq. [53:40] Is it fun to be you when you play? [53:43] Shaq was... [53:45] Shaq was immensely frustrating for me because I never felt like he was in shape the way he should have been. I never understood the free throws. [53:53] It always felt like there was more there, but he still ended up being one of the best 15 ever. Yeah, do the Rick Barry. Come on. Do the grandfather. Just figure it out. [54:00] But, [54:01] I also think it would have been incredibly unfun to be Shaq for eight months a year playing basketball when everybody's like, we can't stop you. So we're allowed to do X, Y, and Z. The refs are going to be like, yeah, this isn't fair. Do what you need to do. Bang him in the back. Pull his shoulders down. And I honestly think with Jokic, it's becoming a little similar where –

[54:21] the way he's defended, I, [54:22] Wemby, we're starting to see it. Some of the stuff OKC was doing against him, [54:26] I just don't think is legal. [54:29] I don't, I, you should be able to run to your spot without somebody like pushing back. Like they have a blocking sled. It's because he's seven, seven. They let it go. I've had a big problem with the officiating, um, all series. I feel like they officiated it straight up and down. [54:45] at San Antonio. [54:46] and gave the thunder the whistles in OKC. I agree. And like... [54:51] It is so amazing. [54:53] It's already there's already a rule on the books about it's a it's a non on sportsman like tech if you flop. [55:00] Come on, ref. Everyone can see it on TV in real time. That SGA sideways three? 90% accuracy, you know. Maybe not every time, but like, and then go review it afterwards. And where did I, someone, maybe you said this. Someone said, maybe Zach said it. I had a flopping points. That's what I want them to do. That you review it after. Oh, yeah, you did. But I really think just... [55:21] It's a tech. [55:23] two of them, and you should be suspended again. Or like a yellow card. Yeah, like yellow card and soccer. I didn't like what you did there, yellow card. Yeah, one more of those and you're out, right? And then it would just stop and the product would get better. And also, you're right, any kind of [55:38] A guy who's seen as having an unstoppable physical advantage. [55:42] Like Shaq or like... [55:45] I'm sure this happened to Wilt, but I didn't see it. [55:47] It 100% happened to Will, who started, that's when he developed that awful turnaround he had.

[55:53] He'd have this little spin because he didn't want to get fouled and he was tired of getting hit. By the way, with Kareem, they were just like, no, you can't dunk. [56:00] and so he comes up well Kareem would be interesting now because if you're allowed to do this stuff [56:07] in the 70s and 80s that we can do now with [56:11] shoving a guy before he can get to his spot. Mikhail would have been in trouble. Hakeem would have been in trouble. It's just... [56:16] It's this new thing that I don't really know why they've allowed it the way they've allowed it. I hate it. And it seems so fixed. So like, so to legislate out tanking is difficult. And I don't know, they're trying to address it. I don't know if they did successfully. We'll see empirically whether it works or not, or it helps. [56:31] But this is like, [56:33] There's a problem. The fans don't like what's happening. There are like a million easy solutions, and they just refuse to do them. Right. All right. The real reason you're here is coming up after this break. [56:46] So good, so good, so good. New markdowns up to 70% off are at Nordstrom Rack stores now. Stock up and stay big on shoes, tops, dresses, accessories, and more must-haves for summer. Join the Nordi Club to unlock exclusive discounts, shop new arrivals first, and more. Plus, buy online and pick up at your favorite rack store for free. Great brands, great prices. That's why you rack. [57:11] Bye. [57:12] Hi Diva, it's Rachel. And Jordan, yeah, hi. Quick question. Why are you not spending your Venmo balance? Yeah, we're concerned. You can like buy stuff with it. Ugh, you love buying stuff. And earn cash back on eligible purchases. Mmm, you love purchasing eligible things. So the money your friend sent you yesterday, that's today's ramen, or rideshare, or eye patches. The skincare kind, not the pyro kind. Spend with Venmo, and you can earn cash back with Venmo Stash. Venmo Stash bundle terms and exclusions apply. Max $100 cash back per month. See terms at venmo.me slash slash terms. ID verification required to use a Venmo balance.

[57:42] Thank you. [57:44] This episode is brought to you by Fox One. Watch all 104 matches of the FIFA World Cup live in 4K for just $19.99 a month with three days free. Build your own multi-view, choose up to three streams, and follow player spotlights. Stay on top of every moment with live stats, highlights, and instant replays. The FIFA World Cup, streaming live on Fox One, offers a subject to change. See fox.com for complete terms and conditions. [58:13] And now it's time for Embracing the Era, brought to you by New Era. [58:17] the official cap of the NBA, take a trip back through some of the most iconic, court-defining moments with the new era NBA hardwood classics collection, [58:26] We're going to talk about the 2000s. [58:28] Today, some amazing players, unforgettable teams, and logos aging quite nicely. [58:33] a couple of decades later, [58:34] I really love those Steve Nash sons teams, especially as the years pass when the league was getting very physical and [58:42] Um, [58:43] Not as much fun to watch game to game. And yet the, the sons were playing a lot like some of the style that we have now fast breaking freewheeling, [58:51] unselfish [58:53] So when I think about 2000s, I think about them. [58:55] I think about the 2008 Celtics win the title, obviously. [58:59] the Pistons shocking the Lakers and then those [59:02] three straight Lakers ones in a row, three titles that I still have trouble swallowing because I don't like the Lakers. But the best team that whole decade was the 2001 Lakers, which almost swept the playoffs that came with an Allen Iverson,

[59:16] Overtime loss. [59:18] of uh [59:19] of, [59:20] actually sweeping the finals. So anyway, that was quite an era. [59:24] relive vintage logos and timeless icons from that era or any other era, [59:30] With the New Era NBA Hardwood Classics Collection available in a wide range of silhouettes, including the iconic, [59:37] Fitted 50, 950, or adjustables like the 940 a frame and 970 and some great hardwood classics apparel too. [59:45] Visit neweracap.com to shop now. [59:49] and use one-time code RINGER, [59:51] for 20% off your first order. All right, Max, it's education time. Okay. [59:59] We need to... [1:00:00] I have a nice big picture of settle down juice for everybody. [1:00:09] Head in the fridge. It just happened. It just happened. This is the moment we became old, right? Like it just happened. Well, but we used to do this when we were younger and we were kids where you just think what you're seeing recently has to be the greatest thing that ever happened. A picture of settle down juice. A big picture. Did this happen in your house? Was this an expression in your house? [1:00:29] Bill if you don't pipe down You're going to have a big pitcher Big helping glass with ice cubes [1:00:38] Jalen Brunson, [1:00:40] There's two separate things happening right now. There's two paths for him. [1:00:44] One is New York immortality.

[1:00:47] And then the other is, where do you rank in the greatest Knicks? [1:00:51] He's not the greatest Nick yet just because they made the finals. Of course. [1:00:55] I don't think people, there's people out there that are like, he's the greatest Nick. They made the finals. It has to. [1:01:00] So I want to go through some of the history of the actual Greatest Knicks. [1:01:04] But let's move into the New York side. Who is... [1:01:07] Can we establish a criteria for greatness before we do this? Yeah, I'm ready to do whatever you want. I want to just establish a criteria for greatness. Well, do you want to do the New York side first or the Nick side first? [1:01:19] Any way you want, but let's establish what we're... I think part of the problem is when kids... [1:01:26] it's not just recency bias or, you know, you give a guy a book and he reads the book. It's the only book he ever read. That's everything he knows. Right. Like, you know, it's something, um, [1:01:35] There's [1:01:36] a conflation between better and greater. [1:01:39] Right. [1:01:40] And kids correctly, intuitively understand everyone now is better than everyone before. That is correct. Kids, you're right about that. Everyone now is better, just about, more or less, than everyone before. It's the cars analogy. If I had a 2026 Porsche. [1:01:58] It would drive better than a 1982 Porsche. Because you built that new platform on what came before. Yeah. You didn't just invent it from whole cloth. You saw it. You improved. Okay. [1:02:09] If you in the one sport that can be objectively measured track and field, you can put a stopwatch on Jesse Owens and the stopwatch on the 10th best printer in the world today and know objectively that.

[1:02:20] that Jesse Owens is not as good as the 10th best friend. But that's, I don't think that's how, this is why I wrote my book. I don't think that's how you can think about it. I think you have to measure greatness by how you compare it to everybody you were going against. Correct, because I'm talking about better, [1:02:35] Yeah. And the conflation is between better and greater. The reason it sounds ridiculous to say the 10th best printer in the world, whose name you don't know is, is better than Jesse Owens is because yet, duh, no kidding. That's not what we're talking about. Does boxing work this way though? Uh, [1:02:51] Yes, but there are influences in boxing, for example, the number of fights and stuff like that. [1:02:58] and the number of rounds that and the number of participants in this country that selected out for different characteristics once upon a time than it does nowadays. [1:03:07] You needed to be tougher. You needed to be more resistant to cuts. You needed to have a better chin. You needed to, you know, like, there's more stamina. 15-round fights and, yeah. But the point is that we are talking about greater everybody. We're talking about how you did against your contemporaries. Now, does it matter if you're playing in a league with 8 to 12 teams, as Bill Russell did? Do you discount him? Yes, you do. [1:03:29] But then do you discount Babe Ruth? I disagree on the 8 to 12. But how much of a discount? [1:03:35] Even when you discount Babe Ruth. Babe Ruth gets a real discount because he was not playing against any minorities, basically. And he was a black player on top of it. Or Latin American players, anybody. He played against nobody other than whites. But no one who ever lived in any league ever dominated that league nearly to the extent that Ruth dominated his league. So even with the discount, he comes out number one. I think with Bill Russell's discount, he probably comes out four, something like that.

[1:04:05] I would say Jordan, LeBron, Kareem, Bill Russell. If you want to argue Bill Russell. It has to be those four in whatever order you want, but those have to be the first four. I think Jordan has to be one, and then you can argue the next. I have Jordan one as well. Okay, so first of all, we're talking about greater, not better. Let's establish that first. And we're talking about you do take discounts on the Babe Ruths and the Bill Russells. The question is, after the discount, where is their greatness? Sometimes it's still number one. Sometimes it's no longer. Now the next thing. [1:04:33] Are we mostly valuing career or mostly valuing peak? When I got Bill James's historical baseball abstract volume two as a bar mitzvah present when I was 13 years old. [1:04:44] It taught me comparative analysis, really, in a new way. And the thing I loved he did is he separated it into two lists, peak versus career. [1:04:54] Sandy Koufax's peak or Nolan Ryan's. How do you compare Koufax and Ryan? If you just weigh their value, Nolan Ryan did a lot more. Is that really what we mean, though? Or are we talking about as long as they sustain their peak for a reasonable amount of time? Peak. I favor peak. I think that's what we're really talking about. I had when I made the Earl Monroe trying to figure out where he ranked. Yeah, I called it the Bill Walton corollary. [1:05:18] If a guy peaked for just two or three years as a truly great player, [1:05:23] That's more appealing than someone who never peaked at all. [1:05:26] That's the difference of Bernard King versus Ewing. Okay, agreed. Then the question is, so we both value peak over career, right? So Bill Walton peaks for a year and a half, and then as a sixth man on the 86 Celtics, and that's it.

[1:05:40] I still had him in the top 35 of my book because at his best year, he was the best guy in the league and took it to Kareem. I had a, I had a, um, this is not exactly the same thing, but I had a producer, John crystal at HBO. We talked about Roy Jones in his prime. [1:05:55] And he said, [1:05:56] I know what I saw. [1:05:57] Right. Like you watch Bill Walton. I know what I saw. Well, and that was that the Tony fight. What was that? 94. Yeah. [1:06:03] And he beat him with one hand. No, he beat Hopkins with one hand. He beat Tony with both hands. But [1:06:08] So, [1:06:09] So, well, that's Aaron Pryor to Aaron Pryor's peak was absurd. So this is the LeBron Jordan argument. If you just weigh their win totals, right, their win shares, LeBron played twice as long. I don't think that's what we're talking about. At least it's not what I'm a good question is. [1:06:25] Okay, you can have one guy who played for 20 years. [1:06:29] Or you could have another guy who played for 13, but the 13 years and the peak of the 13 years was better than the 20. What would you rather want if you were starting a franchise? [1:06:40] What kind of fan are you? Are you the kind of guy who wants to be a powerhouse team for 20 years with no championships? Or would you like to... [1:06:49] Maybe not be a powerhouse team for 20 years, but you wind up with three, four championships. I'll take the championships. Like Bird was... [1:06:55] Bert came in the league in October 79. [1:06:59] And for the next nine years. [1:07:02] was either the best or the second best player in the league every single year, and then was the best player three years in a row. [1:07:08] you were always in the finals or near the finals with him. That's basically what Jokic is doing now. No one really was, and no one really, because their styles weren't the same. He...

[1:07:16] more than anyone, was the original Michael Jordan. Right. Because their styles are so different. [1:07:22] And also racial, obvious, like there are differences in the style of play. One's a white guy, one's a black guy, the whole thing. And Berg was compared to magic. And Dr. J seemed to be the guy who, like Jordan, was the evolution of. No. There was Larry Bird who ran shit. [1:07:39] And then there was Michael Jordan who ran shit like that's that. And honestly, I think Wemby's going to do that, too. It seems to me. I just feel like he's especially when you think this is probably the worst he's going to be over the next seven years unless he gets injured. [1:07:52] It just feels like the way when you're impacting every part of a game, [1:07:57] That's kind of the last level. I do feel like LeBron got there when he was on Miami. No doubt. Unquestionably. The closest I've ever seen in terms of value of a player to a prime Michael Jordan. [1:08:07] Like the one who made me think, hmm, that's getting close. [1:08:10] was years two and three in Miami. The 20s, I really, I've talked about this before. I love the 27 game winning streak. [1:08:20] In a way, I like that more than either title. [1:08:23] for them. [1:08:24] because they started slow? I just thought it was such a cool streak because it was just so atypical. It was in the middle of the season. It wasn't like [1:08:32] Like the Warriors had that 24-0 or whatever they had to start. I think when you start a season with continuity, it's a little easier. [1:08:39] When it's just the middle of the season, when you're just ripping off wins and you get a bullseye in your head around 16 and you can't rest anyone and it's the rhythm of the schedule, you're playing four and five nights.

[1:08:51] I don't think we're ever going to see that again. That was LeBron defending. Defending. [1:08:55] Not just switching on, defending... [1:08:57] all five positions you could put lebron on all five positions on the defense 60 percent shoot he knew exactly where his spots were on the floor yeah he's a basketball genius he was when but like you that's an unsustainable style of play for your whole career i think right i think but you could do that for two or three years i had this thing the wine bottle team where it's like pick a greatest team but you have to pick the vintage year of what what's the biggest team of the [1:09:22] What bottle of wine you'd want to order from that player's career? [1:09:26] 2013 is the LeBron year. Clearly. You could put that version of him – [1:09:31] On any team with any teammates, and he would just be the most additive player possible. Right. No player ever could take... [1:09:39] a lower level group of guys farther than that LeBron James or fit in with a better group. Like to me, it's like with other all-stars because you always think about like, who are the best guys you could just put together. [1:09:51] And you kind of have to have LeBron, Bird, Magic, and Jordan. [1:09:56] on that foursome and then just pick the fifth? I love Magic Johnson. I love Magic Johnson. [1:10:01] You were just worried about the defense? No, um... [1:10:05] The shooting, because to play in any era, I would put LeBron at point. I'd have LeBron run the point, Jordan at the two. I'd probably wind up putting Bird at the four and Hakeem at the five. [1:10:17] And then maybe KD at the three because he doesn't need to really – he just kind of gets in the flow. He can defend. He's tall. He's trying to win.

[1:10:26] Duncan would be in the conversation for me. Right. Duncan or, but not over Bird because I want the shooting. No, but if you just gave me Duncan, Bird, LeBron, LeBron, [1:10:34] Jordan and Magic, I'm pretty confident. The thing about Duncan is, [1:10:39] Hakeem needs the ball a little more, number one. [1:10:42] And Duncan, for more of his career, was a better pastor. Hakeem wasn't a good pastor till later. The problem with Hakeem is... [1:10:48] because I've done this before, and every time I take Duncan, someone's like, Hakim. And I'm thinking, yeah, he just made my team a little bit better. He's just like, by the time Hakim, if we're talking crime, not just career. Yeah, the two-way stuff with him was nuts. I just feel like the 03 Duncan – [1:11:04] gets slipped on. He basically beats the Lakers by himself. He was unbelievable. You know what Jim Lampley told me? Just crushing everybody. That if you want to know who... [1:11:13] Bill Russell was. He's Duncan, but not as good a shooter. [1:11:17] And I never saw Russell play or will play. So I was like, oh, okay, I get it. [1:11:23] That's pretty damn good. Well, that's another thing with Wemby because I think Duncan had it. Everyone said Curry had it. And it feels like Wemby has it too of – [1:11:32] this culture they create, like the leadership. And I always called it with Duncan, it was always the arms around the shoulders. There's certain leaders where they're just, when he does it too, touching their teammates and, [1:11:44] They're just very inclusive and they're like den mothers almost. And he has that already at... [1:11:49] It's 22. All right. He's a serial killer. You realize that, right? No one's this perfect. No, like, like, like when you say he's a serial killer.

[1:11:58] Like he kind of is as a competitor. I do think he has that side of like, I think he wants to destroy everybody. But I mean, like Wemby is so perfect in terms of what he's doing, how he's preparing himself, how he's going after it, how he's using his talents, the whole thing that it's like, there must be something really wrong with this guy that I don't know about yet because he's perfect. Well, when was the last time you saw somebody celebrate like he did after they won game seven? Yeah. [1:12:25] where you felt like it was completely authentic. [1:12:28] Jordan after he won the first championship maybe. Right. [1:12:31] Because this is one of the things that's been terrible with tennis. [1:12:35] And I don't know who started, maybe it was Agassi, but it was like you win and then you just sink to the ground. [1:12:41] You have to do that whole thing. [1:12:45] And now it's like this whole performative thing, and you never... Because people are self-conscious. Like, everyone... Even that... Webby's not self-conscious at all, I don't feel like. He's not. He knows... [1:12:54] But yeah, there's nothing not to love about this guy. That's why I'm suspicious. No one's this perfect. Okay, so Greatest Snakes. So we've established the peak versus... [1:13:03] sustained career. And then also, the greatness has to be when you're comparing to the other people in your era, [1:13:11] But we should take a slight discount if you get past a certain, like, I'd say modern NBA starts, obviously, absorption of the ABA team's three-point shot, right? So you want to say 79-80. You want to say 76-70. You could pick. I'd say 79-80 is the start of the modern era. That's fair. But I had, when I did my book, which was 09, did the paperback in 2010.

[1:13:34] Willis was the highest Nick I had at number 30. [1:13:37] I now have him 38. [1:13:39] But Willis was two-time finals MVP, 70 MVP. [1:13:43] went [1:13:44] He was a two-time finals MVP, but. [1:13:47] But Fraser should have been the 71. It's fine. [1:13:50] Um, [1:13:51] One of the things I value with him, he's [1:13:53] His prime... [1:13:54] is right against all these great centers. He's against Kareem coming in the league. He's against Will. And he's... [1:14:02] going head to head with all these dudes for a couple of years there. And I'm not saying, I'm not saying that he's like this player. I'm saying the position he occupies and the way history has recorded him [1:14:14] unfairly. [1:14:15] in terms of where he's ranked, is similar to Moses Malone. Moses Malone... Yeah, Moses is higher. Right. But Moses Malone... [1:14:23] was the best. We talk about Larry Bird, how amazing he was in the very beginning. [1:14:27] Best player in the game. [1:14:28] was not Kareem or Larry Bird. For like five years, Moses is the best guy. At least two or three. He's among the two or three best for five years, and at least two or three years, you're like, that's the best player in the game. And kind of the guy you want, even though [1:14:44] Yeah, Kareem is better. We get it. But he's kind of the guy you want. Willis Reed was sort of that. [1:14:49] So he was also the biggest enforcer of that era, which you need. And then the game seven, playing with that injury he had, [1:14:57] is one of the... [1:14:58] I did a whole thing in my book about it. [1:15:01] I had him when I did my book, when I did all the work. [1:15:03] I thought he was the greatest Nick because of the titles. More than Clyde? Because when he did Game 7. I would put Clyde. I had Clyde right after him. I had Clyde at 32. I would flip that. But you're enough years old. I'm 53 in August. I never saw you there on play. Okay. All right. But you're still a little closer to it. You know, I have this theory that the weakest –

[1:15:23] Um, [1:15:24] knowledge base that one has in terms of history is the era that occurred in [1:15:30] in the 20 years before 10 years right before they were born. [1:15:34] because, you know, [1:15:35] That's not history yet. So people assume in the world, the world just assumes you know all this, that everyone knows this. But you don't know it. You didn't live through it. So like the 70s, I was born in 73. That Knicks era is kind of my weakest era of sports history in a way. I saw Clyde probably last couple years in the Knicks and then when he was on Cleveland. [1:15:55] But I did have my dad. [1:15:57] Who went to all these games? My dad, my dad, listen to this. This is embarrassing for me. My dad used to root for the Celtics when they had Bird and McHale and Dennis Johnson and Robert Parrish and Ainge. [1:16:11] And I was to be like, I hated the Celtics. And I was like, what are you doing? He'd just be watching TV. He didn't go to the games. He just watched. He'd say, they remind me of the Knicks. [1:16:21] The way they play reminds me of that Knicks dynasty. And that was over. It wasn't coming back. And the closest thing he could get to it was watching the Celtics. [1:16:31] So my dad... [1:16:32] Um, [1:16:35] I had Jordan and Frazier. This is in 2010. [1:16:38] as his all-time backcourt. [1:16:41] And he said, [1:16:42] "Fraser killed us, he was an assassin." [1:16:45] You didn't want any part of him in a big game. He was always been the best guy on the court. [1:16:49] I've never been happier to see anyone retire. Isn't it amazing? Like when you think about it, and he's just gone now, like people just know him as the announcer. And also there's so many things about what, first of all, his style was so flashy off the court. Yeah. Right. He was, he was him and Joe Namath. Right. But on the court, he was textbook. Yeah.

[1:17:07] By that, by the standards of that era. [1:17:09] He was one of the best big game guards ever. He was the best defensive guard in the league of for the first 35, 40 years of the league. [1:17:17] And then... [1:17:18] Game 7, 70 finals, Willis comes out and he's done after a minute. 35-7. 36-19-7 and five steals and took it to Jerry West. To Jerry West. [1:17:30] And Wilt was playing. So whether you want to go Willis or Walt. I go Walt. [1:17:34] They're right next to each other. I had Willis slightly ahead just because center was more important, but Frazier's fine. But those are the top three. That's interesting. Like, [1:17:42] Now guard play is so important or backcourt is so important. You had to have a center. You weren't winning anything. [1:17:48] But I just feel like [1:17:51] It's like Magic Johnson. I guess Kareem is greater than Magic. I get it, but [1:17:55] Clyde Frazier did in game seven against the Lakers in a more unlikely situation. What magic did in game six. Right. Against Philadelphia. [1:18:06] Right. Like you look at those. Even the lines are similar. Forty to fifteen and seven versus thirty six, nineteen, seven and five, whatever it is. Both guards missing their big, the iconic guy in the big. And I guess I guess you're right. [1:18:21] Kareem is ahead of Magic a little bit. [1:18:23] Maybe, maybe Willis reads ahead of an argument I had. I wrote about this in my book. [1:18:28] So they had game seven in the 1973 Eastern Conference Finals, Celtics-Knicks. [1:18:33] Havlicek separates his shoulder halfway through. It's the best of all the Celtic teams, even though they won in 74 and 76. Everyone says 73 team is the best team.

[1:18:41] Havice gets hurt. Celtics still have game seven at home to win. [1:18:46] and Frazier just murders them in the second half. But the NBA had, this is crazy, [1:18:51] They don't have the game. [1:18:53] They would just be games that just don't exist. [1:18:56] but they had a game with no audio. [1:18:59] And they sent me the game for when I was doing my book. Was it just a DVD of the game with no audio? A whole movie or something? Yeah, it's like a whole movie. [1:19:06] That's the only way I've seen Sugar Ray Robinson fight it well to make home movies. And it's just Frasier coming down, backing down whoever to like... [1:19:14] 18 feet away and just hitting jumpers. And it's the whole second half in silence. I was just like, oh my God. So anyway, [1:19:21] Brunson so Frazier was is it but by the way isn't it amazing how you like your dad puts Frazier in the backcourt with MJ like not even blinking right when you are if someone says who's the most clutch player I've seen it's always going to be the guy on the other team who killed my team right like you can't tell me if I'm making my all-time baseball team George Brett is playing third base George Brett I don't care you tell me whoever you want I'm taking George Brett at [1:19:52] So those are the guys I want on my team. Well, I had... [1:19:55] I wrote, this is what I wrote in 2010. And I'm interested to see who you would add to this list. In my basketball watching lifetime, [1:20:02] Only seven guys were crowd killers. [1:20:06] Jordan Bird Kobe Bernard. [1:20:08] Isaiah. [1:20:10] Andrew Toney. [1:20:11] and strangely enough, Vinnie Johnson.

[1:20:14] And those are my seven in 2010. [1:20:16] Who would you add to the crowd killer list [1:20:19] since then. [1:20:21] That's a great question. Because I think, I don't think LeBron always had it, but he could summon it every once in a while. But I don't think it was... It's usually going to be a shooter. It's usually a shooter who's like, oh, fuck. I feel like SGA is right on the border of having it, but hasn't really... [1:20:37] crossed over yet. But the funny thing, the reason I bring this up is [1:20:41] I think Brunson's on this list. The closest thing today, I think, is Brunson. It's Brunson. [1:20:48] Right? [1:20:48] Over... [1:20:49] And I think Durant would be another one. [1:20:52] Um, [1:20:53] On paper, but I don't know if I'd put him on this list. It's a guy who you know rises to the occasion. And Durant didn't always have it. And also like a guy who rises to the occasion, but physically, well, how can, why is it him, why he's rising to the occasion? You know, like Durant's seven feet tall. So I think Brunson's on that list. I think so. [1:21:13] But anyway, the point is, somebody like Fraser... [1:21:16] who was first team All-NBA four times. [1:21:20] Second team on Bay twice was all defense. Basically from they created the award in the late sixties. He was all defense for the rest of the time. [1:21:27] I'd have him one and Willis Reed too, but okay. Those two are the top two. So Brunson wins the title. Yeah. [1:21:34] They win the title. He beat San Antonio as a two-to-one underdog. [1:21:39] Would you have him ahead of those two guys? [1:21:41] No, not not. But he'd be third. He'd be he'd unquestionably be third.

[1:21:49] He'd be third. One chip, third. Those guys won two. And also, when you mention all-NBA... [1:21:55] Back then, you're not talking about first, second, third team. You mean he's one of the two best guards in the league. And by the way, he's contemporaries with the logo. That's the other best guard in the league. That's the level he's on. The one thing I will say. [1:22:10] is that in a league where [1:22:12] Two-thirds of the team are still playing when the season is over. Yeah. Right? There's no... [1:22:20] There's no point in a regular season award. The only season that matters is the very long and very high leverage playoffs, right? Postseason. And when you say a guy, and this is like the Jimmy Butler rule for me. [1:22:34] When every year you're like, when the playoffs start, you're like, [1:22:37] Jimmy Butler is one of the top five guys in the playoffs. What you're really saying is Jimmy Butler is one of the top five guys in the NBA. Right. That's really what that means. So – [1:22:47] Brunson is not first team all NBA. [1:22:52] But he is first team All-NBA, at least this year. But if you ask any basketball fan, who would you rather have in the playoffs? [1:22:59] going forward. [1:23:01] He wouldn't be one of the first three picks, but he might be four or five. But? [1:23:06] When you look back at it and see what actually happens, it may be that we say, well, that's how we felt at the time. [1:23:12] But in fact, he was the number one guy. Like I did this on the show the other day. How many guys in the NBA... [1:23:18] Are you taking over Brunson right now, heading into a series? Who do you want over Brunson? Brunson or SGA?

[1:23:24] They both, SGA is taller. I'd rather have SGA. SGA is taller. He's a much better defender. [1:23:30] I would rather have Brunson. [1:23:31] I would rather like this is not, oh, it's Nick's. I'm just telling you that for me in this series. I think SGA, like he won the title last year. He wasn't good just now. I mean, he wasn't awful, but he wasn't that good in this series. [1:23:43] He wasn't. [1:23:44] And when we talk about... I thought he was awesome in game seven, even though he died in the fourth quarter. For a while. Yeah, he kept the... I just thought what he was doing in that game was sick. He... [1:23:56] The difference between [1:23:58] SGA and I'll say James Harden too. Yeah. And let's say MJ or Kobe. [1:24:03] when they are looking for, like when they get the whistle. [1:24:06] is the priority for MJ and Kobe were hit the shot. [1:24:11] And if I get the whistle, fine. The priority for Harden and to a lesser extent SGA is the whistle. And if I hit the shot, fine. [1:24:19] And it's not the same thing. [1:24:22] Brunson, [1:24:23] Second team on the NBA three times in a row. [1:24:26] three-year peak of 27 and seven. [1:24:29] Four-year playoff peak, counting this year. [1:24:32] 29 points a game. [1:24:34] four rebounds, seven assists, 46% field goal. 29 for four playoff years is really good. I mean, that's, [1:24:41] So the case for him now is best part of the finals team, which I value. [1:24:45] Um, I have to do my pyramid at the end of the year. I want to, I always redo it every year. [1:24:50] After the playoffs? Yeah, he's... [1:24:52] sniffing around now in the top 100 because of the peak. I mean, he'd have to do it for a couple more years, but this is...

[1:24:59] This is pretty special. There's also something about winning a championship for a franchise that hasn't for 53 years. But that's where you get the Wilton... [1:25:08] I mean, the Willis and Waltz. [1:25:10] That's why you have to value those because of what that team meant to the city. And Patrick Ewing, I have third. [1:25:16] I had him 40th in the book. Because Brunson hasn't won a title yet. Now I have him 47th. [1:25:20] Yeah. [1:25:21] Ewing was top five once, top ten six times playing during an era with [1:25:27] Hakeem and... [1:25:29] Shaq and David Robinson. David Robinson was better, I get it. I also felt like Ewing... [1:25:35] maybe had the edge in that matchup when they played each other, just experiencing those games. I thought it was close, but maybe Ewing had the edge, obviously not against Olajuwon or Shaq. [1:25:45] But who could against Olajuwon or Shaq? The 94 finals is tough for him. [1:25:51] If you're talking about Ewing big picture where he ranks... [1:25:54] Like he just got his ass kicked against the team. He was 18.9 points a game, 36% in that series, seven game. They just needed him to be better. And it came down to like, [1:26:03] He was very good. He was very good defensively. Like people forget he was, he was, he had like some, like six blocks in one of those games. The offense never, he was, he had the best, he had a guy who's in the conversation for greatest defensive player of all time on him. [1:26:18] at his best. Like, that's the best Olajuwon ever played. But it's a good example of, like, [1:26:24] If he flips that, [1:26:26] And they actually win game six or game seven. [1:26:29] and he wins the title,

[1:26:31] then Ewing's the best think of all time. Well, how about this? [1:26:34] Olajuwon doesn't get his fingertips in game six on Starks three. Yeah, but you think that shot was going in? I don't know. I have no idea. Like, Olajuwon blocked it. My third at 94 Knicks team was always... [1:26:46] Thank you. [1:26:47] You didn't win the title. [1:26:49] because the ball was in John Starks's hands in the biggest moments of games for you. And that's the reason you weren't a champion. But the bigger issue is John Starks is a sixth man pressed into action because they didn't really have an all-star caliber. Because you didn't have Doc Rivers. Well, you didn't have the – Doc Rivers would have been the – didn't he tear his ACL that year? Or was it Blackman? One of the years was Rivers. That was Harper. [1:27:13] Harper. That was Derek Harper. What was the year... [1:27:16] Rivers was pre-Harper. But Doc told me this whole story about how he was hurt. [1:27:21] And then they could have put him on the playoff roster and they didn't. But Doc was post prime at that point. But he's a good point guard for the Knicks. No, they only had one all-star scorer. Like John Starks was an all-star six man type. He starred in the role of six man. He should not have been the starting shooting guard. He had to be because the Knicks didn't have Reggie Miller or Allen Houston at that point. Right? Yeah. If they have that guy. [1:27:46] They'd probably win that series. They didn't have that guy. That was the flaw of the team. A hundred percent. That's why I said [1:27:52] This starting five is this last year. Best starting five, starting five of my lifetime watching the Knicks. [1:27:59] There's there's in other words, there's no all the players are at least league average and you have a couple of all stars and you have a guy who's the next thing to an all star and multiple players have an offensive game.

[1:28:14] So I have Willis 1A and Frasier 1B. Okay. Ewing 3. [1:28:18] The Bush are four. [1:28:20] Bernard five. The Bush over Bernard. [1:28:23] Because Bernard, he just wasn't on the Knicks long enough. [1:28:26] And his peak, where he's the second best player in the league, [1:28:30] The Piston Series... [1:28:32] taking the Celtics toe-to-toe for seven, which was an awesome Celtics team with multiple guys to throw at them. It didn't matter. [1:28:38] Um, [1:28:39] But the peak was... [1:28:41] Here's where you're going to... Here's the DeBuscher case, though. Okay. Best defensive forward of his whole generation. [1:28:48] Um, [1:28:50] Born Too Early? [1:28:52] three-point shooter, but they didn't have a three-point line. So if you put them in a different era, it's actually more interesting, but [1:28:57] Everyone was just like, [1:28:59] This guy was just the all-time winning player to throw on your team, and... [1:29:03] So it's tough because I love, as you know, I love Bernard more than anybody, but I just don't think it was a long enough thing to put him ahead of the busher. [1:29:11] Here's the thing that you'll run into with the Bush, the Bush a pick. [1:29:16] It was a different league. It's pre-modern basketball in the sense that, as you say, there's no three-point shot. [1:29:23] And, [1:29:24] Carmelo Anthony, [1:29:25] was on the Knicks long enough to, [1:29:28] at a point where he was still among the 10 best players in the league, [1:29:33] I don't know that the Bush was ever considered. [1:29:35] one of the 10 best players in the league. [1:29:37] He made one All-NBA top 10. [1:29:43] 69 all defense six times right third best player on two title teams yeah he's kind of of that team the og ananobi

[1:29:51] who you love having on your team, but I don't know that [1:29:55] 50 years from now. [1:29:56] We'll have OG Ananobi ranked fourth on the all-time next list. I had the Buescher 46th in my book, re-ranked to 57th. [1:30:04] You love DeBusher. I mean, my dad loves DeBusher. That's the thing. I was really riding with what the old guys were telling me, and DeBusher was the guy over and over again that they talked about. By the way, [1:30:16] One day, years from now, someone will look at Draymond Green and be like, pfft. [1:30:20] Right. But Draymond Green changed basketball. Right. Yeah. Um, [1:30:24] The Carmelo thing, I think, has been overblown and [1:30:28] Um, [1:30:29] You can pick it apart pretty easily. I would not have him in the top five. I think we have to make allowances for Carmelo and for Kobe. [1:30:37] who tend to get underrated. They're overrated by some and underrated by others because the game changed from under, like underneath their feet, the ground was moving. And because they were featured offensive scorers, [1:30:54] The analytics will tend to... [1:30:56] to underrate them. You know, they didn't, like, Carmelo didn't evolve his game the way Vince Carter did, let's say. Not that they're the same kind of player, but like Vince Carter evolved with the league and had a 20-year career. [1:31:09] and Carmelo didn't, but the analytics are going to underrate Carmelo. [1:31:14] Because the game changed out from underneath his feet. Like he was. He just never had the one run. [1:31:20] The closest was 09 against when they made the conference finals. He won on the right team.

[1:31:24] Well, part of that was his fault, though. I got to ding him on that. [1:31:28] He could have waited a sign with the Knicks, and instead he made them trade a whole bunch of shit for him. He goes to a team, and then he has no help, and he's like, I don't have any help. It's like, yeah. Yeah. [1:31:36] Because you forced them to trade all these dudes to get you and you could have waited. Well, by the way, Dolan didn't need to intervene. Donnie Walsh was going to get him for a lot less, you know? But like the argument that convinced me about Carmelo is what if Detroit, [1:31:50] just has a normal draft and drafts Carmelo Anthony. [1:31:53] What are we saying about him now? [1:31:55] I know it didn't happen, but nothing had to change about the kind of player he was. He just needed to be in another situation. How many times has Carmelo all NBA? [1:32:05] I was a big Carmelo defender. [1:32:09] Um, because I always felt like the best thing about him was that he thought he was as good as LeBron and Wade. [1:32:15] So if I and Kobe, so if I had that in a series, [1:32:19] At least I know I'm going to war with somebody who's like, I'm as good as he, whether it's true or not, he believed it. He was as good as like, [1:32:27] Back end of the career Kobe, like the more kind of post-up game Kobe, Carmelo is as good as that. [1:32:32] Carmelo, two second-team All-NBAs. [1:32:36] Three, four third teams. Seven times one of the, yeah, it's pretty good. [1:32:41] He wasn't a defender. I thought in... [1:32:45] Maybe 2013, he was the third best player in the league. Right. It was him and Durant and... [1:32:51] And LeBron. LeBron and Durant were above him. He just had a game that was...

[1:32:56] tailored to the previous era. Like, you don't have to go back three eras. You just go back one half an era. There's 2-2 in that Nuggets series. The Nuggets-Lakers in 09. [1:33:06] right? Sir's tied at two. [1:33:08] He's playing really well in the playoffs. And then last two games... [1:33:12] Whatever. And then the Indiana, which everybody blames on [1:33:15] Tyson Chandler, [1:33:17] But Carmelo was in that series, too. He just kind of never had the moment. I agree. [1:33:21] I don't know. I'm just saying like, [1:33:23] The bushel over Carmelo. [1:33:25] is... [1:33:26] You can argue it. I don't know if you win the argument. I don't know if you win that argument. [1:33:31] But by the way, the Knicks fans like who actually lived through the Bush era will agree with you. [1:33:36] Yeah, I really trusted the old guys because that was what we talked about earlier. [1:33:41] And there were a couple guys that they were just fanatical about. DeBusha was one of them. Like we're talking about greatest Knicks. If you say greatest players, hard to argue DeBusha over Carmelo. But greatest Knicks, you could argue DeBusha over Carmelo. Yeah. [1:33:56] I gotta say, like, [1:33:57] I don't 100% understand the romanticism with Carmelo and the Knicks. [1:34:02] Like, was that, was that an incredibly fun time that I missed? Like even Linsanity was probably the most fun part of the entire Carmelo experience. And he drove Jeremy Lin out of New York. I was defending Carmelo to Knicks fans that whole time, like, [1:34:15] Oh, when Carmelo gets back, he's going to stop the ball. I'm like, no, Carmelo's a winning player. Listen, I was hearing about... [1:34:21] TJ Ford, [1:34:23] all that year. And I saw Carmelo Anthony play for Syracuse once. And I said, they're going to win the championship. That guy's the best player in the country. Not close. Carmelo Anthony.

[1:34:30] And they did. So I thought of him as a winner. I mean, he had a little McNamara and like winning players on that team. [1:34:36] And then he doesn't get drafted by Detroit, where he probably would have won multiple championships. And then when but like so I'm like, no, he's not going to stop. Well, he did. And he did drive Jeremy Lin away. [1:34:47] In the end, though, was Jeremy Lin going to win you a championship? He was not. [1:34:51] The Denver stuff isn't great either when you go back and there's just a lot of first round exits and. [1:34:56] Um, you know, he, [1:34:58] Basically until the 09 finals. That's like his sixth year in the league. [1:35:03] Then round two, just not enough. Carmelo was unlucky and then was a victim of his own hubris later on. [1:35:09] And made the mistake, which the other guys didn't do, of signing the longer contract in 2006. Oh, believe me. And those guys all had the outs, but he didn't. He was stuck with the Knicks for that extra year. [1:35:20] Um, [1:35:21] Well, the second part of this conversation is the keys to the city conversation. All right. [1:35:28] Guys who just... [1:35:29] minted in New York. [1:35:32] Namath, [1:35:33] Jeter in order. [1:35:35] No, no order. [1:35:37] Nameth Jeter. [1:35:38] Eli. [1:35:40] Reggie Jackson? [1:35:42] Thank you. [1:35:43] Yeah, he is. There's a butt with Reggie, though. What is it? [1:35:46] Thurman Munson was so beloved. [1:35:51] that [1:35:52] that the fact that Munson couldn't stand Reggie because of what Reggie said early on, [1:35:57] Even though he didn't need to make it about Munson. Reggie showed up.

[1:36:03] with a baseball bat after the Yankees had been swept in the world series. [1:36:07] by the big red machine and said, no one will ever embarrass the Yankees again, as long as I'm holding this in my hand. Yeah. And then hit five home runs, three of them in a row in the deciding game six. Then they gave him the candy bar because he had said the thing, you know, baby Ruth. He thought it was after Babe Ruth. And it was actually after Teddy Roosevelt's. [1:36:31] kid baby ruth right ruth his daughter but everyone thought it was named after babe ruth so he said if i ever play in new york then name a candy bar after me so after no one did embarrass the yankees with that in reggie's hand they gave him the reggie bar and on opening day at yankee stadium 78 after they won the championship he hit a home run they had given out reggie bars and everyone [1:37:01] Bill James and others will argue that it's either very difficult or maybe clutch hitting doesn't exist. Look at Reggie Jackson's record in the World Series. It's a big sample size. I just don't agree with that argument. It's a big sample size. Because how do you explain Ortiz then? Right. [1:37:18] Did you think Ortiz was getting hit against you when Ortiz came up? You did. Every time. [1:37:22] He's still getting a hit somewhere. I have Reggie and Thurman. I have Mariano. But there's a distaste. As much as people love Reggie, unlike everyone else you just mentioned, there's an undercurrent because of Munson. Not with Mariano. Mariano, come on. And I think Messi is there.

[1:37:40] No question Messier is there. Is there a Met? [1:37:46] I mean, I would say... [1:37:49] Tom Seaver once upon a time probably. [1:37:51] Um, [1:37:53] He's not around, but [1:37:54] um i seeper was the one i had i didn't know if you'd want to there was an 86 met i'm trying to think of who the 86 hernandez was like close that's the gary carter [1:38:06] And by the way, [1:38:08] Not on the level of the guys we just ripped off. You know what the real is? Here are the two guys. Gooden and Strawberry? Gooden and Strawberry. Yeah. Gooden and Strawberry were the biggest stars ever. [1:38:17] in New York at the time. Would you have any other Yankees from... [1:38:21] that 96 to 2000 run other than Jeter and Mariana. [1:38:26] Well, I mean, I have a personal favorite. No, but for the city, this is the exercise. [1:38:32] Paul O'Neill. [1:38:34] Paul O'Neill got the keys to the city. Paul O'Neill is... [1:38:37] beloved in New York. Okay. And then the other guy... [1:38:42] who people have a love for in New York, like other people outside New York don't understand, is Bernie Williams. Bernie Williams on my all-time clutch team, remember, if you're all-time clutching, a lot of times didn't play for your team. But if I was the fan of another team in that whole era, [1:39:00] In fact, of everyone in baseball in that era, the last guy I'd want to see come up of everyone in any situation in the clutch would be Bernie Williams.

[1:39:10] Because he was a switch hitter. He was patient. He was clutch. Look what he did in the playoffs. He was calm. He was calm. He always wasted the good pitches. I hated Bernie Williams. He had plus power. He would hit 300 plus every year. And he's a switch hitter. He always had the matchup. So Bernie, I would say Bernie. [1:39:29] For me, it's Bernie. And for the people I know, it's Bernie. Hard for me to talk for all of New York there, but he's up there. Jalen Brunson. [1:39:37] When's this thing? Forget it. [1:39:39] Reid and Frazier would be the two Knicks. [1:39:41] So many young people don't understand... [1:39:45] Like, [1:39:46] the reason that Brunson is going to be the greatest of all time is because they don't [1:39:50] One of the most treasured memories I have in my life is, [1:39:54] is bumping into Clyde Frazier downstairs the day of the decision. [1:39:59] Yeah. And having breakfast with them. [1:40:02] uh, [1:40:03] at this little place across the street from Madison Square Garden. And while we're lamenting the state of the Knicks and the fact that [1:40:09] All I can think about is breakfast with Clyde Frazier on the day that LeBron, like, this is the Knicks that goes to Miami. Oh my, I'll tell my grandkids about this. But I don't think a lot of younger fans in New York care. I think there's for... [1:40:24] specific generation Bernard is on that list, but it's only like, [1:40:27] it's an age window of like, [1:40:29] 15 years. Yeah. [1:40:31] But the Bernard in 84 and then the first part of 85 was like, [1:40:36] Go watch She's Gotta Have It. He's arguing Bernard King, Spike Lee in She's Gotta Have It.

[1:40:43] is arguing Bernard Ching over Larry Bird. [1:40:46] That's who we had in New York at the time. Yeah. So Brenton... [1:40:49] has a chance to elevate to that level. No other Knicks from this team? Oh, I'll tell you another guy with the keys to the city. Who? [1:40:56] Don Mattingly has the keys to the city. [1:40:58] Without the title. Without the title. Don Mattingly. The hit man. He is so beloved in New York. [1:41:04] Like between Jeter and Mickey Mantle, he was probably the most universally loved Yankee. And that includes Reggie and Thurman, even though. [1:41:13] Those guys won World Series and he didn't. And Lawrence Taylor. [1:41:18] just because he was the best ever, right? Like Lawrence Taylor is you. LT's a good one. You can't tell anyone in New York anything about Lawrence Taylor. [1:41:28] He's the best defensive player I've ever seen. Best player? Yeah. Best defensive player of all time. Yeah. [1:41:32] I think he might be the best football player I've ever seen. Yeah, probably. [1:41:36] Like if we're doing a draft to try to... [1:41:42] Him and Jerry Rice and... [1:41:45] Even Brady, like I'll divorce myself as a Pats fan, but just like got non-Patriots. Jerry Rice and Taylor were the two best players I ever saw. The thing about Brady is if we're choosing up an all-time, let's draft an all-time team, right? Yeah. [1:41:56] If you take Brady, I'll take Montana. I'm good. [1:41:59] The two players I don't think... There's no drop-off of LT to the next guy. It's LT, and the other guy for me is Deion Sanders. If we're strategically, like if we're drafting shortstops and catchers because there's going to be a run on them, there's no... I know the advanced metrics like other guys better than Deion Sanders, but I know what I saw. I don't think there's anyone close to Deion at his position. I don't think there's anyone... You can't approximate that. You want to take Reggie White, I'll take Bruce Smith, or I'll take...

[1:42:27] You want to take I can take Aaron Donald if I just want a guy on the defensive line. If you want to take Jerry Rice, I could take Randy Moss. Yes, I would much rather have Jerry Rice. But Randy Moss is, you know, basically, you know, but I don't know what to do. If you take Lawrence Taylor, I'm like, well, you're looking at the Derek Thomas. You're already over there outside linebacker who can drop into coverage. Like forget about the pass rushing. John Hannah is like that for for guard. [1:42:53] It's like, if I get John Hannon now, it's a huge drop-off. [1:42:57] That's true. And by the way, that's the strategy. You always go for like, [1:43:01] scarcity at the position. [1:43:06] What should OKC do? I had in my notes as well for you. [1:43:10] Zach and I talked about this for a while. There's... [1:43:14] I was thinking about this. [1:43:15] Um, [1:43:17] And I don't know if it's the time we live in now. [1:43:20] We have to overreact to whatever happens at all times, right? [1:43:24] and how if that had been the case in the 80s. [1:43:29] with the Lakers have traded magic after the 84 finals. [1:43:33] After tragic Johnson? Yeah. [1:43:36] Especially when he wanted to trade The Pistons when Isaiah The bird steals the ball and they blow it in game 7 It's like what do the Pistons do? They gotta blow it up They gotta do this that [1:43:46] It's kind of the mentality we have. The more I look at it, I think the [1:43:49] The move is just to ride it out. You won the title last year. You went against a crazy freak. [1:43:55] Without your second best player. You didn't have your second best player. You had a big bullseye on you all year. Just like, let's take a deep breath. It's the marathon, not a sprint. It makes me think of what, uh,

[1:44:05] What Riley said when [1:44:07] He was trying to Jedi mind trick right before LeBron left to go back to Cleveland and Riley had that press conference. [1:44:12] And he's like, winning's hard. [1:44:14] Only one team wins every year. Like the hard part is now when you don't win. [1:44:19] Can you stay together? He's basically like sending this coded message to LeBron. Well, Jordan ruins basketball that way. Yeah. The problem with the standard that Jordan set is – [1:44:30] He's the greatest of all time. [1:44:31] And people know that they're going to be compared against that. And when you dig into the numbers, it says that Jordan is the greatest of all time. [1:44:39] And when you dig into the analytics, it says Jordan's the greatest of all time. [1:44:43] And when the analytics get more advanced, it furthers the argument that remember real box plus minus used to say LeBron had a slight edge over Michael Jordan. As it's become more sophisticated, Jordan now has the edge even in that stat, like a kind of point guard stat over LeBron James. [1:45:00] So he set that bar. How do you beat that? [1:45:03] Will you at least like he also never. [1:45:07] lost the championship. [1:45:08] Right. Yeah. Six and oh, and three peated twice. [1:45:12] And the only times he ever lost... [1:45:14] when he had another all-star on his team, [1:45:16] Even one. [1:45:17] was, [1:45:18] The year he played baseball, came back and didn't have his legs. [1:45:22] And the year Pippen got the migraine against the Pistons. Otherwise, if you gave him an all. So LeBron and everyone is being measured against that. And they're aware of it. And if you look at the stats and the advanced analytics and everything like shit. [1:45:34] Not quite. I got to get him in championships. You could beat him on game and duration of career is the way LeBron's trying to beat him now. Well, I mean, like you just do what you can. Kobe was like, I'm going to do MJ better than MJ. And he took the number 24. He should have taken the number 22 because he got super close. Right. But not quite. So it ruined because like before MJ...

[1:45:56] you were allowed to lose championships. Yeah. [1:45:59] And if, if people, and it's like, it's, it's, um, what Harold Bloom, the literary critic wrote about, uh, [1:46:06] Shakespeare about how there's an anxiety and it stopped me if I've done this with you before, because this is from my greatest hits volume three, but yeah, [1:46:14] It's it's every writer since Shakespeare, because writers, great writers are always aware of what came before them. And in fact, they're kind of having a dialogue with what's come before them. [1:46:24] Right. And so, [1:46:26] And or they're involved in this dialectic as time goes on. And they and and. [1:46:31] Every writer understands that Shakespeare covered it all. There's nothing new you can do. So you have this anxiety of influence. [1:46:39] And, um, [1:46:41] That's Michael Jordan. He has created an anxiety of influence in basketball that has warped the way we think about basketball in terms of Chet Holmgren. [1:46:49] He has shown that at this point, he is at best the third best player on a championship team. [1:46:56] And but he's very young. [1:46:58] He ran into a guy who may replace Jordan one day as the GOAT, if he can stay healthy, maybe. [1:47:04] And he can grow from this. And I compared it to... [1:47:07] or if Warriors fans mad at me right now, but... [1:47:10] Thank you. [1:47:11] I just mean in this way, when LeBron blocked Steph in game six and screamed on him, [1:47:17] And Steph kind of hung his head. [1:47:18] Thank you. [1:47:19] In 2016? [1:47:22] I was thinking, Oh, yeah. [1:47:23] I mean, not in retrospect, at the time I'm thinking that's not how you react to that.

[1:47:28] Right. Like he knows he's better than you. You know that, too. And then in game seven, I know Steph was hurt. I know he was tired. Everyone's tired. [1:47:35] you know [1:47:36] It's game seven. [1:47:38] 73 wins at home, fourth quarter, five and a half minutes left. [1:47:42] You can't score a point? [1:47:44] You can't set up a teammate to score a point. [1:47:46] You're throwing the ball out of bounds behind your back and you lose like that at home to LeBron James. [1:47:54] He told you he was better than you and you believed him. There's something about that. I believe that. And Wemby did that to Chet. [1:48:02] He's been prepping it this whole time. He at every instance, I own you now, Steph, I think consistently underperformed in the finals. [1:48:13] earlier in his career. In 15, in 16, I looked and I thought, this is not the same guy as the regular season. It's slightly worse. Different, uh... [1:48:21] You're seeing a guy every day for two weeks. [1:48:24] Okay. You can start to shift stuff against them. And it took them a while to unlock that. They shifted against Jordan. They shifted against Larry Bird. But in 22, he answered that one. Even before then, I started to see him turn the corner against Kawhi. [1:48:36] I saw him win games where it looked like, okay, Kawhi is telling everyone I'm the best player in this series. Look at this. And Steph answered him right back and won a couple games at home. Yeah. And then by 22, he's the best player. In other words, he got where I wanted to see him get. [1:48:52] truly as the best player in the world. The Durant thing kind of screwed it up too. [1:48:54] Thank you. [1:48:55] in this way. [1:48:57] I kind of wish Durant had just gone somewhere else. Even though that 17 Warriors was the most fun or the most successful team we probably had since 01.

[1:49:06] But, [1:49:07] I thought that Rob Curry of his Rocky III moment. [1:49:11] Coming off the 16 finals and... [1:49:15] Coming back and beating Clubber Lang. Yeah. But – [1:49:18] Yes, maybe, maybe. But the fact is, this is how it happened. But my point is, Steph... [1:49:24] matured, [1:49:25] and figured it out. [1:49:26] in my opinion. [1:49:27] And, [1:49:28] I've got to push back slightly in the block. [1:49:31] I remember the moment. I just don't think Steph... [1:49:34] I think that team was banged up and tired from going for that 73 wins from winning the year before. I just thought that running on fumes – [1:49:42] You watch those games and it doesn't even, looks like a, like Draymond has 35 in game seven and they still lose. He was going to be the MVP of the series. They were going to lose that game by 20 points if he doesn't do that. [1:49:53] I saw, yeah, I saw that moment. Maybe you're right. Because I thought the key to me with that series is game four – [1:50:00] Cleveland brought it. [1:50:02] that's an awesome game that's been lost in NBA history and Golden State won the game. And at the tail end of it, Draymond got punched in the balls. But I think Golden State was going to win that series in five. I – [1:50:14] Well, I think that's LeBron goading. [1:50:16] Like he knows this guy, one more tech and he's out. He won't admit that he did it. I know. [1:50:20] But I don't know why it's to it's to his credit that he did. It's super smart. It's like Muhammad Ali level psychology. He should say like, yeah, I knew maybe I could get to dream on. The game was over. [1:50:29] But I would say this. But that's like the John Starks 94. The Achilles heel of that Warriors team was Draymond's. 100%. And he finally snapped. When you have that kind of Dennis Rodman type. Yeah.

[1:50:39] what side of the line is he going to be on? And if you, he fished and he got it, but he, [1:50:44] I'll say this about your pushback. [1:50:45] It could be that I'm confusing correlation with causation. Like for example, [1:50:51] If I... [1:50:52] saw a dark cloud and thought, oh, there's going to be an earthquake. And then there was an earthquake. The cloud didn't cause, but hard to tell me when I, when my, when I, you know, my great grandfather told whatever it was that this in my family, we always knew if this, there's a dark cloud, it's going to be hard to tell me that that's not the case if it happens. Right. [1:51:10] Whatever it's a bad example but you get the idea Yeah [1:51:14] When I saw that moment, [1:51:17] I saw it. [1:51:18] Oh, right. In that's my reaction to it. And then so that I linked it to the last. [1:51:25] But Bill, it wasn't the last minute. It wasn't the last two minutes. They didn't score six points. And the other team scored eight points with 522 to go. I believe it was 522 in the fourth quarter of a game seven at home. They didn't score a single point. [1:51:46] So maybe you're right. [1:51:48] But hard to tell me that because it's not like I look back and connected those two things at the moment. I'm like. [1:51:54] What is this? [1:51:56] It's such a fascinating game. [1:51:59] Because the Warriors, the Bogut injury happens. [1:52:02] And then Harrison Barnes, over the course of that series, basically just dies and becomes unplayable, right? Unreal. Couldn't hit anything. If you go back and watch, it's like an all-time Game 7 rock fight. Curry doesn't really have his, just doesn't seem like he has his mojo in the same way. Draymond's keeping them in it.

[1:52:17] And they have Azalea out there with like six minutes left. Who's also not good, by the way. [1:52:22] who I don't think ever, I'm pretty sure he never played another NBA game. [1:52:27] Yeah. I'm almost positive that's true. No, that was an all-time choke. [1:52:30] Um, [1:52:31] But they had to have Azealea out there. He didn't know who to play. He needed to buy somebody minutes. And LeBron sniffed it out. And the first time he got, you've got Azealea to fall into him for three free throws. [1:52:42] And the second time, Azalea was afraid to come out on him, he hit the three. I always felt like that was the game. It's like, you have Festus Azalea out there with five minutes left in a game seven. [1:52:51] Because your team is this depleted or whatever. I mean, and then also... That was it. And then, yeah, maybe... I mean, sure, sure. I mean, obviously... I just think they ran out of guys as that series went along, and... [1:53:01] They weren't that deep to begin with. Fine. Hit a shot. [1:53:04] You have five and a half minutes is the greatest. Kevin Love guarding Curry is the, is the worst moment of Curry's career. Hit a shot or, or use your gravity to create a shot for a teammate. Like, or try this. Don't have an unforced turnover. [1:53:19] Like throwing the value of possession. But that is the only finals he ever lost. [1:53:24] Well, okay, except... [1:53:27] The only reason they won in 15 is because LeBron's second best player with Matthew Delevedova. There is like we look two years ago. Last year, the Pacers were better than the Knicks. [1:53:38] It was clear. They're better than the Knicks. Two years ago, the Knicks were better than the Pacers, but injury allowed the Pacers to win. We all saw 2015.

[1:53:48] That was injury. [1:53:49] You know, that was injury. Now, we are in a time in the NBA, and maybe it's always been like this, and I don't know. And I'm not. I don't chalk that up to an injury finals. I know that. No, I thought the Warriors were good that year. I honestly think they would have figured it out. Bill Cotter. [1:54:03] So if you think the Cavs are good that year, it's because they have LeBron James and Kyrie Irving and Kevin Love. Yeah. And if you took Kevin Love and Kyrie Irving off the team, you'd be like, well, they're not so good. Right. But but they had to change how they played in that finals in a way that I thought actually weirdly helped them a little bit with what they did with LeBron. The difference was, in other words, LeBron, because he didn't have his two guys, they played in a way that got the most out of the rest. I thought it fucked the Warriors up. [1:54:33] the series back. [1:54:34] But there was something about how that series, it was so weird. [1:54:38] that I actually thought it kind of... I still feel like the Warriors, if you're just putting [1:54:42] that those 15 teams together and the newness of that team and what was going on with Kevin Love and, [1:54:47] That, you know, the Kevin Love thing was weird those first two years. Kyrie was a big game player, though. He was, but he'd never really done it before. And he didn't have a chance. Like, that's LeBron on the 0-7 Cavs. He basically took the 0-7 Cavs six games against... [1:55:03] against the Warriors. I feel like the right team... So if you're going to go 15 and 16... [1:55:09] Going one and one was probably the right outcome. Yes, but right. But you have to flip them. Yeah, yeah. But it's just like each team probably should have won once. Here's the best argument for Steph Curry, for all the Steph Curry fans. Not only are the individual stats great, but he created an environment, both a culture and a culture.

[1:55:26] And in terms of the space that he provided every, and the way he could play off ball on ball, the whole thing where he, [1:55:33] Where it's like in chess, if you dominate the middle of the board. Yeah. Yeah. [1:55:37] all tactics will tend to favor you. [1:55:40] Right. If you have Steph Curry on your team. [1:55:43] If you have Steph Curry on your team, all these situations will tend to favor you because of the structurally – [1:55:49] what he creates both in terms of the culture and in terms of the spacing on the floor and all that kind of stuff. Fine. I would not take that away from Steph. I still think, [1:55:57] that, [1:55:58] He is an example of how a player can mature in the clutch and, and not the Chet is Steph Curry. [1:56:04] But, [1:56:05] I wouldn't be so quick to move off Chet. Here's another, unless you just think at his size, we were worried about the longevity anyway, given his frame, blah, Maybe, maybe, [1:56:14] Even then, you're still selling low. [1:56:16] If you look at a guy like Iguodala, [1:56:18] who was miscast as the number one in Philly. Eventually, he's a number four in Golden State. [1:56:25] but you still want Iguodala on your team. Yeah. If Chet is a three or a four, [1:56:30] I get he's a very expensive three or four, but he... [1:56:35] Like it seems to me that's one of the things that makes that team really good. That's the biggest part of this, though, is can you afford three expensive guys if you're not sure about one of the three? [1:56:44] That's that's how you turn them into into a. [1:56:48] into a, [1:56:51] Well, let me ask you this. [1:56:52] If they called the Clippers and said, give us the fifth pick for Chet,

[1:56:56] What do the Clippers do? Because they have the cap space to make it work. [1:56:59] I think the Clippers would. [1:57:01] I think they would too. [1:57:03] Would Milwaukee do it? [1:57:05] I'm not... [1:57:07] Giannis isn't answering the question. The question for me is, [1:57:10] Would OKC want to turn Chet? [1:57:12] into the fifth pick in the draft, making... [1:57:15] $30 million less, then you bring Hartenstein back. [1:57:18] You have Hartenstein and J. Will as your centers. And then try to go get Porzingis or someone like that. Or maybe you try to get Robert Williams a free agency. [1:57:26] Maybe at five, then try to trade in the top four. [1:57:31] Maybe you can talk Memphis into going back two spots or Chicago. It's just that was the most interesting fake trade of all the Chet fake trades for me. [1:57:38] Could they get to five for the Clippers, a team that has Kawhi, Darius Garland, [1:57:43] Suburgency, not knowing what the aspiration settlement's going to be and all that shit. Without running pleas for Chet Holmgren, he's giving you... [1:57:51] 17 what? [1:57:54] eight he's like 19 and 9 19 but he was the second best defensive player in the league i mean like it shuts a lot he's and also you want you're just you're paying 41 million dollars for him and he's a year he's a three four really like like like when he's really a three he's playing four or five because he's very tall but he plays rim protection i don't know i would think about it yeah um but that's it i would have to get [1:58:18] major salary cap relief. [1:58:21] And I would have to get some sort of, [1:58:24] Big chip. The Warriors are going to... Sorry, the Warriors...

[1:58:28] the thunder are going to have to do something is the, is the general feeling about things because of the way check came up small and the money. [1:58:34] And the money, sure. All right, of course. [1:58:37] If they have Jalen Williams, maybe they win this year. [1:58:40] They went seven games without their second best player. That's, I think, where you land after the wounds, after licking your wounds, cleaning up the blood off the floor. [1:58:48] You're like, fuck, would we have won that series if Jalen Williams was 100% healthy? We probably would have. It's more really preparing for what the Spurs are likely to become. [1:58:56] You know, like you win the Super Bowl in Madden and then the next year, all your all your young players are rated 10 points higher. Right. Like all of a sudden, Steph and Steph Castle and Harper and everything start to blossom. And it's like. [1:59:10] We needed to do something then. You'll love this analogy. [1:59:14] I love to bring in boxing with you every once in a while, just so... [1:59:17] You know? [1:59:19] It puts the hair in your arms, standing up. Frazier couldn't beat Foreman. No. Frazier was awesome. [1:59:26] Put Frazier against anybody else. It was a great fight. He was the worst possible guy to fight Ali. [1:59:32] Something about Foreman, he had no chance. And they did it twice. Rock, paper, scissors. [1:59:36] He said no chance. I don't know what the, like, I don't think Frazier at any point in his career would have figured out what to do against Foreman. No, Foreman would have knocked him out every time. And the question is, is that Chet against Wemby? [1:59:47] but styles, Frazier against Foreman, probably, but styles make fights. So Ali, the boxer has a hard time with the volume pressure fighter, Frazier, because the, the guy who wants you to miss, yeah, you make Frazier miss five times. Who cares? Here come another 10 punches, right? Yeah. Hard for Ali. Um,

[2:00:04] Frazier versus Foreman, the pressure fighter has to come inside against the puncher. He gets clipped coming in. He's knocked out hard for Frazier. Foreman, the puncher, trying to swing one at a time against Ali, the guy who can make you miss bad for Foreman. [2:00:17] Right. So it's it's rock. It really is rock, paper, scissors. [2:00:21] And if you're saying that the problem is that the rock is going to be sitting there in your path every single year. Yeah. You know, that's true. [2:00:30] But again, who's going to match up with Wendy? You're not going to find a matchup for Wendy. So that's what we said Saturday night. It's like, everyone's going to have this problem, so do you just... [2:00:41] Except that there is no Wemby answer. [2:00:44] And maybe you did the best job you could have done against him, but every team is going to have this issue. So just put your best possible team together. Yeah. If I'm the thunder, I don't think I'm looking at that matchup. I think I'm looking at, [2:00:55] It... [2:00:56] I think we're better than them. We were missing our second best player. If we have him, we're good. [2:01:02] Yeah. And one more shooter, I think, is the other thing. It was a team that when they couldn't hit threes felt like they could lose to anybody. Well, if they lose Dort, then they're going to, you know. [2:01:12] Could they make a run at somebody who's just a more reliable, he-checked three-point guy that... [2:01:17] But I think really what you're preparing for is not when Wemby is going to, Wemby is always going to be better than Chet. Even if Chet does better, he's still going to be better than Chet. [2:01:24] You're preparing for the evolution of... This was different, though. This was... Yes, he... He didn't try. Chat was a puddle. [2:01:30] Yes, he was. I didn't realize when we did the pod Saturday night, Chet took both of his shots at the beginning of the game.

[2:01:35] He went like 28 minutes without taking a shot. It was that late possession where he thought about shooting. He didn't shoot. But I think really, if you're the Thunder, you're... [2:01:44] you're, [2:01:45] You're thinking, how do we counteract the evolution of Castle and Harper, really? [2:01:50] That's really what you're going to have to deal with. [2:01:52] And that's, I wouldn't worry about [2:01:54] I mean, also, like, what if Carter Bryan all of a sudden is good in two years? He's good now. I know. But it could be like a 35-minute-a-game guy. It's pretty rough. It's rough. I think they're set up. It's so funny because we were saying this about OKC last year. [2:02:07] And somehow San Antonio is set up even better. And it's really just, can Webby stay healthy at seven foot six? That's it. Whatever it is. If, if, if I was thinking, I said this on. Because we remember when Samson got hurt. [2:02:18] And Wemby's plays a much better, [2:02:21] He's playing in space more than Samson ever did. It's a different time. [2:02:24] But Samson didn't train with the Shaolin monks either. [2:02:28] Or train how to fall. That's another thing. Wimby actually works on how to fall, how to land, which I don't, they just didn't know this shit. Like Samson 40 years ago, [2:02:38] Nobody was working with them on here's what happens if you're starting to fall. Right. So he has a three year prime. [2:02:44] And that's what people were thinking. He fell in the Boston guard. He was never the same. He fell on his back. Led to all this other shit. Um, all right, Max Kellerman, you go in, uh, you're going to go to at least one next home game. I got to go do the show in a minute. Um, um, [2:02:57] I don't know if, like, let's see if I can get into a home game. I think I might have to catch him in San Antonio. Hot ticket. Yeah. [2:03:04] Good luck, though. Thanks.

[2:03:06] Ever since I've known you, this seemed like an inconceivable conversation. [2:03:10] That the Knicks might have the greatest Knick ever on their team? That they might win the finals? When people say 99, it's so annoying. They didn't have a shot in 99. Yeah, Ewing was... Ewing didn't play, and they were an 8 seed. Like, you know... [2:03:24] can be and and and and [2:03:27] And, uh, can be kind of a forgotten that he was excellent. That was a great tree. He had a great run. That was a good, but, but like it's free well in Houston and those guys, [2:03:34] But they didn't have a shot. This is the only shot they've ever had since 94. So I said this on a pod a couple weeks ago where I said this Knicks team had the best chance ever. [2:03:43] to make the finals. [2:03:45] Since the 94 team And people were like [2:03:49] What about the 99 team? They made the finals. And it was like, [2:03:52] They lost Ewing. Like, it was a miracle they beat the Pacers. They wouldn't have won with Ewing, but they would have gone six or seven games. Yeah, like, that was crazy that they even got out of round three. But. [2:04:03] I would say that [2:04:05] In a way, this Knicks team is playing with house money that the 94 team wasn't playing with. Because in Jordan's absence, it's like, okay, now. Like we were taking the Bulls. In the West took them seven games. We were taking them seven games. We took them seven games with Jordan and Pippen and Grant, right? Now is the time. And this is Patrick Ewing's time. Here we get to see the parallel universe with no Michael Jordan. The Knicks are going to win a championship. So it felt you weren't playing with house money. You were like destined to do it. And it was so bizarre. [2:04:35] when they didn't. It was like, wait, what? They lost the chance? How is this possible? This is house money. The Knicks were not supposed to be here.

[2:04:43] I agree and I disagree. [2:04:47] Because I also think this is going to be your best chance this decade to win the title. [2:04:51] Yeah, it's the best chance. You're probably not going to have Mitch next year. He's going to leave because I just don't think they can pay him 20 to 25 million bucks. You had no Indiana this year. [2:05:01] You had Boston with Tatum coming back. You're going to have other teams in the East getting better. You don't know where the next challenger is coming from. You have younger Wemby who's only going to get better. Or OKC. Like, this is it. I think it's not as much about they didn't have the gauntlet as it. Because I think they would have. You have all this rest you got? Based on what I've seen, they would have beaten all those teams. Based on what I've seen in these playoffs. They wouldn't have swept everyone, but they would have won. I think they were. Indiana had your number, though. If it was the same Indiana team. But they're not winning by 12. [2:05:31] I get it. The math says yes. Who knows? But that's my feeling. I feel like they're really, really good. The question is, is it sustainable for more than a year or two? Yeah. Right? Like, so is this it? And they're firing on all cylinders? Also, you have guys that... [2:05:44] I wrote about this, the Pat Riley disease of more, which was one of my favorite things to write about in my book. [2:05:50] You have all these guys sacrificing this year. [2:05:53] Because they're trying to win the title. Once you win the title, you're not as excited to sacrifice. [2:05:57] Towns is like, yeah, yeah. [2:05:59] Eight shots a game? I don't know. I'm ready to take some more. You know what? I don't think that's his problem. I think he has the other problem. Towns, shoot more. [2:06:07] I think that's really, he's such a team guy. It's like, you know, like I just think it's the, when you say the 2014 Spurs,

[2:06:16] They had largely the same cast, but it never came together like that year. It was awesome. Right. And so this is now it does seem like they caught lightning in a bottle. They didn't have to run the gauntlet. Their gauntlet, they're rested. They're mostly healthy. We'll see if Mitch can play. [2:06:31] They just happen to be and maybe they're catching the dynasty the year before it becomes a dynasty. Right. Right. [2:06:38] Thank you. [2:06:39] So I'll do Spurs and Six. I don't feel great about it. [2:06:43] You'll talk about your pick on Game Over with Rich Paul and Max Kellerman. Correct. [2:06:47] Good to see you. Thanks for coming. Always good. [2:06:49] All right, that's it for the podcast. Thanks to Max Kellerman. Thanks to Eduardo and Chris and Gahau as well. Don't forget, I am going to be coming back [2:06:58] Right after game one of the NBA finals tomorrow night, we're gonna be live on Netflix. [2:07:03] And new Rewatchables mailbag coming on... [2:07:08] on Thursday, and then I'm not sure if I'm doing another podcast that week after the Wednesday Night Pod. We will see. Don't forget about the new rewatchables with Steven Spielberg and Sean Fennessy as well, 2001 A Space Odyssey. So, I will see you tomorrow. [2:07:37] So. [2:07:38] Bye. [2:07:40] 21 plus in president select states for Kansas in affiliation with Kansas Star Casino or 18 plus in president DC, Kentucky or Wyoming. If you have a problem, call 1-800-GAMBLE or 1-800-MY-RESET. Call [redacted government id] or visit ccpg.org slash chat in Connecticut or mdgamblinghelp.org in Maryland. Hope is here. Visit gamblinghelpline ma.org or call [redacted phone] for 24-7 support in Massachusetts or call 877-8-HOPE-NY

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