An NBA Playoff Preview With Doc Rivers, Plus Nick Khan on WrestleMania 42 and the Next Big WWE Stars

[00:00] For adults with Crohn's disease or ulcerative colitis symptoms, every choice matters. [00:07] Tremphaya offers self-injection or intravenous infusion from the start. Tremphaya is administered as injections under the skin or infusions through a vein every four weeks, followed by injections under the skin every four or eight weeks. If your doctor decides that you can self-inject Tremphaya, proper training is required. [00:30] of Crohn's disease and adults with moderately to severely active ulcerative colitis. Serious allergic reactions, increased risk of infections or lower ability to fight them and liver problems may occur. Before treatment, get checked for infections and tuberculosis. Tell your doctor if you have an infection, flu-like symptoms or need a vaccine. Explore what's possible. Ask your doctor about Trimphia today. Call [redacted phone] to learn more or visit TrimphiaRadio.com. [01:01] . [01:06] The Bill Simmons Podcast brought to you by FanDuel. We're also brought to you by the Ringer Podcast Network. I had new rewatchables that went up on Monday. We did Basic Instinct. Kindergarten Cop is coming next Monday. [01:16] We also launched a brand new narrative podcast called The Gata. [01:19] First two episodes are up. Please check it out. I was involved with this one. If you like Miami Vice, Scarface, the 80s. [01:26] cocaine shows, [01:27] This has it all. So please go check it out. I have a big podcast coming up.

[01:32] Doc Rivers. [01:33] A dramatic return, and we're going to talk a lot of hoops with him. We're going to talk about the award stuff, the season, the best player he saw in person, [01:41] playoff matchups, what happened with the Bucs season, Giannis, we go into all of it. [01:46] And normally that would have been the podcast [01:48] But Nick Kahn... [01:50] Um, [01:51] a very important person at the WWE. [01:54] in boxing, bull riding, all kinds of things. And somebody I've known for a long time, he came over and we did a, [02:00] wide ranging talk on a whole bunch of things. So this is [02:03] a massive podcast. Wanted to mention, [02:05] The playoffs are starting... [02:07] Um, this week, and I do have FanDuel bet a little bit later, but, um, [02:11] I really wanted to take an upset. I love taking an upset every year. Every year there is an upset. And I don't see the matchup for the upset this weekend. Minnesota and Atlanta seem to be the two live ones. [02:22] to jump on and I don't [02:25] I just think Denver and the Knicks are going to advance. [02:29] The one I think is the most interesting for... [02:32] For, uh, [02:34] for an underdog pick if you wanted to get nuts. [02:37] is [02:39] the Lakers. [02:41] Lakers in seven is 10 to one. [02:45] Lakers in six is 22 to one and the Lakers to win this series is plus five 30. [02:50] I just feel like we're going to get Luca back before the end of the series. [02:54] And even if it's 2-1 after 3, the longer that series goes on, the thing, [02:59] the worst I think it is for Houston. I just think the odds are a little out of whack. I don't think Houston should be minus 750 against anybody.

[03:06] But we're probably going to go chalk for round one, but that's the only one I would look at. The other thing I wanted to mention, [03:12] We got word today that Cade... [03:15] And Luca, [03:17] are now eligible for first team on NBA. [03:20] or second team on NBA. [03:22] or MVP, or whatever you want, because their appeal process work. So I'm just going to give you [03:28] My ballot. [03:29] with the adjusted Luca. [03:32] Um, [03:33] First team, Jokic, Wemby, Luka, SGA, Jalen Brown. [03:37] Second team, Duren, Kawhi, Mitchell, Cade, Brunson. [03:41] Third team, Chet, KD, Jalen Johnson, Murray, Maxie. [03:46] is what I'm going with for our MBA. [03:48] I have Luka as number four MVP, Jalen five, Wemby three. [03:53] And I have not handed in my ballot yet. And I know I said on Tuesday, I was voting SGA for MVP. [03:59] And we cut a social clip out of it. [04:01] And I am just agonizingly talking about how I don't understand why I'm not voting for Jokic when he had one of the greatest offensive seasons I've ever seen in the greatest of his career. And yet also laid out the case why I think the vote has to be SGA. [04:15] Um, [04:16] Blame the NBA, not me, because I should have already sent my ballot in. This appeal process dragged it out. [04:23] I have not signed up my ballot yet. I don't know when the deadline is. [04:28] I still don't know who I'm voting for for MVP. I've changed my mind. [04:32] I've had a conscious uncoupling with my original SGA thing.

[04:36] I just over and over again keep thinking, in 10 years, what am I going to think? Am I going to regret doing this? Because there's been a couple MVP picks I've regretted over the years. I'm just not ready to make a pick yet. [04:49] I don't know what to tell you. [04:51] I'm sorry. I already said I was voting for SGA. I apologize to the OKC fans and SGA and his family. [04:58] I don't know what I'm going to do. [04:59] And I'm just going to think about it for the next two days. [05:03] But it's up in the air. [05:04] So that's what I got for you. All right, we're going to take a break. Bring in Pearl Jam. Talk basketball at Doc Rivers. Stick around for Nick Khan. Really good, action-packed, fun podcast next. [05:16] The Bill Simmons Podcast is brought to you by FanDuel. [05:19] The NBA postseason is here and FanDuel knows the only thing better than watching your favorite team win. [05:24] is winning along with them. Fando, the best place to bet the teams, players, and plays during their playoff run. [05:30] Build the same game parlay or try live betting and jump in after tip-off. Don't forget with FanDuel, you get paid instantly when you win. [05:37] Download the FanDuel Sportsbook app now. [05:39] and play your game. [05:41] 21 plus select states are 18 plus DC, Kentucky, or Wyoming. If you have a problem, call 1-800-GAMBLER. Call [redacted phone] or visit ccpg.org slash chat in Connecticut. [05:51] all right late afternoon thursday my friend doc rivers is here

[06:22] We're back. [06:23] We did it. [06:24] We're back. I did a little two and a half year segue. [06:28] Uh... [06:29] You know, I told you this, but just going to make your ego just humongous, Bill. But I don't know how many times I've even had guys like, hey, I like you as a coach, but I really like you on the podcast with Bill. You got to get back. And I'm like, okay, okay, I got you. I hear you. So I'm back. Yeah, I'm taking advantage of you during the playoffs at least a couple times. Well, the best thing is getting you right out of you just coaching. You went against all these guys. You went against all these players. I want to go. We can talk about the Bucs stuff much later. [06:59] Thank you. [06:59] First, I got to talk about Curry because you have real ties to that because your daughter married into the Curry family. Yeah. [07:05] Special emotional ties. I was there last night. [07:08] I took my son who had never seen a real Steph Curry stakes game. He'd never been in the house for that. [07:16] And the whole time I'm going, you know, they're down eight, they're down six, they're down 10. I'm like, [07:21] Curry's going to make a run. [07:23] The Clippers crowd is going to get really nervous and it's going to be awesome. Just wait. [07:27] That's because you're a Clipper fan and you've seen that. I'm saying this because I've experienced it. I can feel the anxiety through the TV. [07:42] from the crowd. You can literally feel it. It was great, too, because for most of the game, you didn't hear it. [07:50] The Golden State Brown.

[07:52] At all. And then all of a sudden, [07:55] Al Horford makes a couple of those threes. As good as Steph was, and he was amazing, Al Horford saved that game. [08:01] Yes, he did. And Porzingis... [08:05] Kept them hanging around. He was good, too. There was a little Guy Santos in there. [08:10] And then Curry did his stuff. [08:12] And it was interesting that the way the Intuit is, where they have the wall, and it's all real Clipper fans, right? So the whole side of the arena is all Clipper fans. The other side of the arena was basically all Golden State fans because they bought in on that side. Yeah, I couldn't figure out where the noise was coming from. It was to my right, facing the corner. [08:31] And so Curry gets going. And when he hits that shot with 50 seconds left, which he knew was coming. And the way he goes with Draymond now, it's like they have this crazy ESP thing. And he hits it. People in my section left. [08:43] And they didn't leave because they wanted to beat the traffic. They left because they were like... [08:48] I've been doing this with the Clippers my whole life. I know how this game's going to end. I might as well leave now. It's like they were escaping a horror movie house. It was rough. It was rough. [08:59] It was such an interesting game, uh, cause it was such a little back and forth. Callie was at the game, my daughter. Yeah. And, uh, [09:06] And I text her at the beginning of the game, oh, this is the rough start for Golden State. And then at halftime, I said, oh, they're hanging around. And then my daughter's last text was in the fourth quarter with about eight minutes left. Said, if they hang around long enough, [09:20] that Steph didn't see the finish line, he's going to take it.

[09:24] Yeah. [09:24] And that is exactly what happened. You know, it's always an interesting game because I really thought there are three or four times where Golden State was close to letting go of the road. [09:37] you know, like it felt like [09:39] You know, man, they're trying. And then I'm telling you, the four threes that Al Horford made, [09:46] It's just... [09:47] changed the light. It changed the light. And once it got to five and three, you knew. [09:53] what was headed. Now, I will say this. [09:57] And Draymond, you know, I've gotten in more, like, [10:01] discussions about Draymond. It's amazing how many... [10:07] discussions I've gotten into about Draymond because I have fought for him being a Hall of Famer. [10:14] for five years now. Draymond's a Hall of Famer. To me, he is. And you hear people, well, he averages, what if he was on another team? What if... [10:26] He's a straight winner. [10:29] Forget all the other stuff, you know. [10:33] In last night's game, [10:36] His defense was... [10:40] Next world way. [10:42] I was surprised. I thought Kawhi would be more aggressive and all that stuff. But I actually thought at times he was. I mean, fighting to get the ball every possession, getting bumped up the floor, I mean, it takes a toll. Kawhi probably very rarely fights or plays against someone that's bigger and stronger than him for a whole game.

[11:12] last night's game because I thought Draymond, it just shows you how important, you know, we, we, [11:18] We factor in offense so much, Bill. And... [11:22] There's so many like Hall of Fame defensive role players. [11:27] And Draymond's the case. Dennis Rodman is one. You know, there's certain guys that can do what they do at a Hall of Fame level. And, you know, Draymond deserves his flowers. [11:37] Yeah, it was interesting watching it in person because he was doing that from the first minute. [11:43] And he was so intense and so crazy that I was saying to my son, like, [11:48] I actually think it's 50-50 he gets thrown out of this game. Like, he's too... [11:52] He's too fired up. And it was like he was testing the reps early to see how far he could go yelling at them and intimidating them. [12:00] But he was really wearing down Kawhi. And I thought Kawhi was tired at the end of the game because he doesn't normally play minutes like that. No, and that hard minutes, not throughout. And if you want to be a great defender in the NBA, you have to be stubborn as hell. You have to be hard-headed as hell. Because at the beginning of that game, Kawhi was kicking his butt. Kawhi was scoring. And what I loved about it is Draymond never wavered. It's almost like, okay, great. You score. Keep doing it. Okay, you're scoring again. Keep doing it. I'm going to be right here. [12:30] And by the end of the game, it was like, I guess I would be like fighting Muhammad Ali after the 5,000th gap. [12:38] You're exhausted and you wear it out. And that's how it felt like. Draymond just kept jabbing away, kept jabbing away, kept jabbing. And then by the end, Kawhi was worn out. And it felt that way. Well, you know, you talk about the great defenders of all time.

[12:57] Draymond gets in your personal space in a really unique way. And he takes these little steps to stay with you. And Kawhi was trying to like almost move backward and get away with them. And Draymond just follows them. And I was thinking like, [13:08] How many guys like that in the history? Because the best two guys I've ever seen perimeter defenders ever. [13:13] are Pippen and Kawhi, ironically. Um, [13:16] Draymond's like just a whiff under there, but I still think for the non-centers, I'm [13:21] He's got to be one of the five or six best non-center defenders ever, right? Ever, for sure. I do think Dennis Rodman... [13:30] Rodman's the third one. Yeah, he would be he would be the other one. Like he would you put it with all in there? [13:36] No, because he was more of an offensive player when he first started. Yeah. You know, so I would not. But, you know, I remember Dennis Rodman. [13:45] And I actually used to say this, I'd rather have Pippen Garvey than Rodman. And that's a hell of a statement because neither one of them, your day's not going to go well either way. But they both were just gritty. And Draymond's more like Dennis because... [14:05] Divis got under your skin. [14:07] People just starve the hell out of you. [14:10] Yeah, he's probably fourth on that list, but it's a good, really good list. If you do it, then I'm from there. So Curry. [14:17] It was... [14:18] watching him, I don't think he's healthy, first of all. I think he's probably 85%, I would say, and kept readjusting his knee, which is a sign that...

[14:27] There's a couple of car drives he did. [14:30] And I don't know if the TV was picking this up the same day, but just watching his body line. You can really pick stuff up during the fouls when there's stoppages and the eyes aren't on the players. Yeah. And you could just see him kind of stepping on it, seeing what hurt. I text Callie that. That's how we got in the conversation. I text Callie and I say, Callie, is Steph okay? Right. Because you remember that drive? He had to pull hard. And he actually left the game and went back to the locker room. Yeah. I was worried. Actually, he didn't come back for a while. [15:00] And I'm thinking, is he coming back? And then when he came back, he missed a couple layups. He definitely was laboring. [15:09] But it just... [15:11] I mean, it just tells you how... [15:14] These guys are built. And I always say these guys, meaning the one percenters. [15:18] And the rest of the league is not. [15:21] Um, [15:22] Because I don't know where he went. [15:24] in the third quarter. [15:26] But he came out in the third quarter and he looked different. [15:29] He was playing... [15:31] It's like the light bulb that came back on. Now, maybe because the Clippers didn't put the game out of reach. [15:38] And he saw that, man, we can get this. But even when you see that, very few people can reach what he did. He was amazing in the second half. And it was always, there's certain guys when you watch, you say, man, that's beautiful how they play. [15:52] He plays a beautiful game. That last play should be steady because it's a misdirection football play. He throws the ball and goes right, snaps back left, throws,

[16:04] By going over the top, [16:06] Brooke kind of picks off [16:08] The guy gardened. [16:10] uh stuff and so if you watch it the guy guarding stuff was going under brook [16:15] So he couldn't get back to him. And then when he steps back, [16:19] It makes the shot. You knew it was going in. But to get to it, [16:24] You know, listen, Bill, if I had a ball, if I was in a game and I did that, I would surprise the team because they were like, [16:32] Everyone knew. [16:35] But Draymond and Seth, they knew exactly, and you still couldn't stop it. [16:39] It just tells you how great he is. [16:41] Wow. [16:42] I mean, it's stupid to say, but winning is a skill. [16:45] I thought that's why they won the 22 title. [16:49] I don't think they necessarily had a better team than Boston, but they just kind of like, oh, you're going to leave this hanging here for us? [16:55] All right, we'll take it. [16:56] And Courage just took it, which I think [16:59] I don't know where he's right for historically for me when I have my pyramid that I do every year. [17:05] And there's like this group of him and West and Kobe that are all next to each other. And I think they're very, they have to be in the clump together. And it's like. [17:14] The 9, 10, 11 range of the best players of all time. [17:18] And each for their generation, they were the guy, right? And I don't even know how you calculate who is more important than who. [17:25] It's tough. The thing with Curry, though, that [17:30] I don't even West was like Mr. Clutch. [17:33] Kobe had a bunch of great moments.

[17:35] There's something about what Curry does to the crowd on the road. [17:40] that I think is unique to him. [17:42] I can't think of any other players that do it. Maybe Ray Allen, who wasn't even nearly as good of a player as Steph, but [17:48] Something about when they're going, [17:50] the crowd kind of gets... [17:53] kind of staggered by it. Reggie Miller had a little bit of that. Reggie's like that too. That's a good one. Yeah, when he got going. And it's mostly the jump shooters. [18:01] Yeah. But [18:03] Steph demoralizes the other team. [18:06] more than any of those guys. When Seth gets going, [18:10] He can turn a visiting crowd into a home crowd. [18:15] which you don't see anybody. Maybe Michael had the ability to do that. Well, Michael definitely had the ability to do that. Yeah, I was kind of leaving him over here. Yeah, I always do. He's over here. We're not even mentioning it. [18:31] Um, [18:32] I've seen it. Like he takes the steam out of your team. [18:35] When he gets going, I mean, he's hopping around, you know, like you want to kill him. [18:41] Like if I was playing against him, I'd want to kill him. [18:46] Because he does things that you don't see and it takes the wind out of your sails. [18:53] It really does. That three was a [18:55] dagger. It was a killer. He also had that dancing lefty flip layup. They're down five. What the fuck was that? It's so nonchalant. It's not. I think the thing that people miss the most with Steph because he's this nice guy.

[19:13] He does all the charitable work. Everything he says is right. [19:18] Like he's the most coachable star. And one day we're going to have a pod about that. Why Seth has won over some of the other guys. And because I'm a coach. [19:28] I really believe a lot of it is because he allowed himself to be coached. Right. And I think that's part of it. [19:35] But what we miss with him is, [19:38] is he's a stone cold-blooded killer. [19:42] Just like Kobe and Michael, he just doesn't come off that way. [19:45] But he's exactly like them. [19:49] And people miss that with him. They miss forecast him, his toughness and his grit. They really do. [19:55] Do you think... [19:56] It's not going to be this year's team. [19:59] Is there a world where he's ever on a really relevant team again, or is it too late? [20:04] It's never too late. [20:07] You know, it takes one move. [20:09] You know, you just, you know how it works. You just never know. [20:14] So you still think he could be maybe not what he was in 22, but he could be almost like what you had with KG and Ray and Pierce. Yeah, every one of the three. Yeah, yeah, for sure. But he needs help. Like, yeah, you know, I think the reason he's injured, been injured a lot this year, he's been carrying a heavy load. [20:33] Well, he's running so much. Even like yesterday, watching him hurt, seeing the amount of running he's doing just to stop and start stuff. [20:40] That's what I'm so surprised at that he's the name of the same. You know, LeBron, his athleticism, his size, you can see it. But because of the way Steph plays, I just, if you had asked me six years ago,

[20:56] that Steph would still be doing it now. I would have said, no way. There's no way. But if you watch his workouts... [21:04] And I'm sure you've heard about them. Yep. Then you understand that. [21:09] why he's in the condition. But even that, at some point you think, even that's going to wear him down. [21:14] And so far, it hasn't. [21:16] So who was the best player you went against this year? Who was the one, like if you had to stack them, who was the one that you were like, wow, wow, [21:24] Well, that's never been asked, Bill. That's a good question. [21:29] Wimby. [21:30] Ironically, that was the best player I saw in person this year, where I was like, wow, this is like, I haven't seen anything like this. Yeah, it's just so different. [21:40] And he does so many things. [21:43] You have to prepare for him. [21:46] differently than everybody else. He can't get behind you. [21:51] Like he literally cannot defensively, he cannot get behind you in the paint. [21:57] If he does, they throw it up and there's nothing you can do about it. [22:00] Um, you know, um, [22:04] You have to shoot. [22:06] His recovery, you can beat him. [22:09] off the dribble at the free throw line, but you're not going to get the shot off. You know, Manute Bowe, if you remember Manute Bowe? Manute Bowe had that kind of coverage, you know, where you thought you had him beaten, then you got to the rim, [22:22] And you would try to go under the rim to reverse it to guard him. And he still got it.

[22:27] But Wimby does that. [22:28] Um, [22:29] His shot, he's a really good three-point shooter. [22:33] And a good free throw shooter, too. Great free throw shooter. And he's fouling his shot now. At the end of the game, he knows if I can get to the elbow, kind of like Dirk. [22:42] you just got to hope like when you're guarding him all you're doing is hoping he misses [22:48] Because there's nothing you're doing defensively. I do think the guards should get up under him and get into his body. The stronger lower base guys have a better chance of guarding him than the longer guys. He's just so talented. And he's another guy that has the Kobe Michael mean streak. [23:07] And I love that about him as well. [23:10] Was he noticeably better this year than last year to you? [23:14] Yeah, I don't know if it was... [23:16] Number one, yes. [23:17] because he was more sure of what he was doing. But [23:22] I don't know where it came from, but this killer... [23:26] Like, [23:27] He had it last year, but he's ramped it up. [23:30] It's almost like he's taking names. You know, like, okay, [23:34] You got me last year. That's how you feel that he's playing, that he remembers everything that went on last year against him. And he's turning that into energy. [23:46] Interesting. Because the other guy that jumped out when I saw them was Castle. [23:51] who seemed... [23:52] who I voted for first team in, [23:55] By the way, I have to ask you about my vote later because I'm wavering on one. But I...

[23:59] I put Castle on first team all defense because I'm like, what more do you want from a perimeter guy on defense than this? [24:06] That's what makes the Spurs. You know, Wimby is amazing, right? Yeah. But all their guards... [24:12] Our guards can guard like every single one of them. I think that's what people miss with the Spurs. That's how good they are defensively. Yeah. Now, when we have figured out how to not how to switch and stay in the paint without going out. [24:26] to corners and stuff like that. [24:28] Um, [24:29] And, you know, I worry like the one team that could make them struggle, maybe if you can get a guy that he's guarding that is really shooting the ball well. [24:38] from the three to pull him out a little bit, you have a little bit of a shot. [24:44] That's probably Denver, right? Because that's either Gordon or Jokic trying to pull them away from the basketball. And they're passing. [24:52] But I tell you, their guards, they put pressure on you. It's real pressure. Like, they're up into you. And, you know, I had a couple years when I was a player early in my career. We had Tree Rollins and Dan Roundfield. And if you're from Boston, you know who Tree Rollins is. Clearly, Tree Bites, man. You know, yeah. [25:14] I felt my first couple of years, I could really be aggressive. [25:19] Because I'm like, go, go, go in there. [25:22] How dare you? [25:23] That's how you feel they're playing. They're so... [25:27] up into you and they're pressuring you so much it's almost like they're saying

[25:33] If you want to, [25:35] You can drive, but it's not going to be good for you. [25:38] And they play that way. [25:41] You told me we were talking before the playoffs last year. [25:44] And you were telling me about Indiana. This was not on a podcast. This was just texting about it. [25:50] And you were telling me how difficult they were because of what they were doing, pressuring defensively, and just people don't realize what a bitch it is to play against them. And I really started watching. And I thought Indiana was my big sleeper to make the finals last year because it was like, yeah, they're doing something. I don't know if people fully realize it yet. [26:08] And now you saw the league emulate it this year. And there are all these teams trying to pick up full pressure. And it feels like this new wave of... [26:16] But you must have, being in the middle of coaching, [26:19] You must have noticed a difference this year, right? Oh, yeah. You knew it was coming. The league is pretty easy to predict where everybody's going. Oklahoma City, very physical on the ball. They reach, they grab, they hold, they slap, they strip. [26:36] They won. [26:37] So every team is going to try to do their version of that. [26:43] And so you knew it was going to go that way. San Antonio does it. It's easy for them to do. Indiana did it. There's a couple other teams. Detroit, physical, pressuring the ball. Minnesota can do it too when they play Ayo and McDaniels and Ant all together. And when they're sane. Minnesota can beat anybody and lose anybody.

[27:07] who they are, man. But, you know, that's, I tell you, if I'm Denver, [27:11] That's a rough first round. [27:13] That just is. Because they've beaten Denver. And that's why I look at Boston, New York. I'm like, no. [27:22] That can be a scary thing. [27:23] thing as well, because Boston, New York beat Boston. I don't care what you say. Confidence is just like you were talking about winning. [27:30] When you win against someone in a series, you believe you can beat them no matter how good they are. You start believing that and it becomes hard. I'll tell you what ball pressure does in a circle about our conversation. It's short as the clock. [27:44] Do it. [27:45] All you have to think about is shortens the clock. [27:48] Instead of running your offense in 20 seconds and you're getting it, you're starting your offense at 14. You may not even start it with the guy you want to start it with. [27:58] You know, you may have taken the ball out of his hands. And so you're wasting your time trying to get it back into the right guy's hands. And now there's 10 seconds. Like, if you can convince your team if you have a team built like that, guys, you're [28:11] If you pressure the ball, all we have is 12 seconds of defense to play every possession. It makes you a better defensive team. And that's why teams are doing it. Well, and the talent pool in the league now. [28:22] where you can have a team like the Celtics that have Walsh, [28:26] And Hugo Gonzalez. And Shireman. And, you know, Pritchard White. And they could just kind of keep going. And Ron Harper Jr. they're bringing in. [28:34] It just feels like everybody's so – because we've talked about this before, but like your 2012 Celtics team.

[28:41] kind of the last to Rod team. [28:43] And you go back and look at the depth on that team and some of the guys that were playing versus the depth that teams have now. Ron Harper Jr. is good. Ron Harper Jr. would play real minutes on playoff teams and he can barely get out there for the Celtics. I feel like a lot of teams have... [28:59] these extra guys like that. And I'm sure this is one of the reasons they're thinking about expansion because the, [29:04] The talent's there. I don't think they should do it. The talent's there. It's going to go away once they expand. Right. True. Think about it. You're talking to a guy that came in the league with 23 teams. [29:17] Each time it expanded, [29:19] The talent pool and the benches got thinner and thinner and thinner. But it also comes down to the front office bill and management. Brad's done an amazing job. Brad was a really, really good coach. He's a better front office guy. He really is. [29:37] All the guys he had, anybody could have taken him. [29:41] Right. [29:42] It's not like he's taking these guys. I'm not talking about the Jalen. You're talking about like Shireman and people like that. Yeah. [29:49] And Pritchard, anybody had a chance to grab these guys, but they did. [29:54] And they keep doing it. [29:55] you know, and so... Kata. They got Kata from the Kings. He was like a second round draft pick of the Kings. And wasn't playing. He played a little bit, but [30:03] They're evaluating their spur-like lately. They're evaluating the talent. They evaluate the type of guys that fit. They know Joe. They know what Joe will stand for and won't stand for. And they're hitting a home run. That's a home run. You got to give them credit. They've been amazing. So Missoula this year, who was, I thought, incredible. I'm voting for him for Coach of the Year. Non-homer pick. I just can't. I don't know how they won 56 games. I still don't really understand it. Non-homer pick, but I'm going to go with you on that one.

[30:33] A little bit on that one. They started at 0-3 and finished 56-26. And I still don't understand what happened. He's done it amazing. I did tell you that I thought there would be a playoff team. But I didn't. I mean, come on. He's had [30:48] He's done an amazing job. This, I would say... [30:54] is the first year in a long time that there could be five guys. [31:00] than if they won coach of the year. [31:03] maybe even higher than you can see. [31:05] I can see that. So you got Bickerstaff. [31:09] Jordan Knott, what'd you put on there? Jordan Knott is one. Mitch Johnson? Mitch Johnson is one. So who's your fifth one? Yeah. [31:16] Joe Mazzulla is one. So that's four. And I can't think of my fifth, but I just told someone a fifth. So my point is... [31:26] It's... They just... [31:29] It's amazing. It's been really cool to watch. And the Jordan, it's [31:33] Um, [31:35] And even Mitch, in a way, like Jordan... [31:39] It's really impressive to watch because... [31:43] Um, [31:44] They lost Salad. [31:46] Right. [31:47] and got better. [31:48] He came in and changed... [31:51] their weight. [31:52] Charles Lee was your fifth one. Charles Lee is my fifth one. Yeah, yeah. I was listening to you, but I was also like, who's the fifth one? Charles Lee is the fifth one. Like, [32:03] Um,

[32:04] we played them early in the year. We beat them three out of four. [32:08] right early in the year. And, you know, [32:11] I came in our coaches meeting because we played them like on a, [32:14] Monday and then on a Friday, and it was right during the... [32:18] Mid-season tournament thing. And when we played him the second time and beat him, Peter Fagan, who was with the Bucs and had become a really good friend of mine, [32:29] He said, man, they're going to be good. I said, [32:32] They are good. [32:33] And he's like, what do you mean? I said, they're here. [32:36] I said, they're here now. [32:38] And he's like, no, I don't see that. I said, oh, no, they're here right now. They're coming. Now, I didn't know they were going to make the run that they made. Right. [32:47] But. [32:47] We played well that game because it was one of the tiebreakers at that time. [32:56] We played well, probably one of our hardest, best played games. [32:59] And it took everything to beat them. Wow. And I thought, you know, obviously, I think Khan changed their culture. [33:08] There are certain players that have the ability, Kevin Garnett, to walk in and change the culture to... [33:16] Without words, but with his actions. [33:19] And I think Khan has kind of done that. And now LaMelo and all the other guys are doing it as well. They've kind of bought in to that. I'm glad you said that because it's been a polarizing rookie of the year vote, right? And I voted for Khan. Yeah. And, you know, part of me is I value the winning, even though I know you're not supposed to do the rookie of the year that way. I think you should do it that way. I personally think you should.

[33:42] But I thought [33:44] First of all, he played a shitload of games in a bunch of minutes for them, right? He played like 2,500 minutes in 7-9 games, but [33:51] I thought, [33:52] I was talking the other day about the gravity of him out there, and he's really the only guy that moves. [33:58] And his constant movement sets up everything else that they're doing. Combined with, like, he rebounds, he plays defense, he's unselfish. You have to have a guy like that. You do. And if it's one of your better players, then your team is better. Yeah. You know, you can make a case early in the year, Charlotte was probably thinking about moving guys. You know, moving LaMelo, moving the small bridges. Yeah. And now you watch them, they're playing like winners. [34:28] the most improved players. Yeah. I mean, but all that is from winning and playing the right way. And they, what's great is they didn't do it early. [34:36] But they kept at it. [34:37] They kept playing the right way, and then they caught fire. I thought the sneakiest move that Charles made was putting Diabate in the starting lineup. [34:45] I thought he was like a glue guy defensively and... [34:51] He is as good as anybody in the league. Officer rebounding. He's a tear on the glass. Yeah. He gives. He won. Like, I know Mello. LaMello played great. Bridges. Bridges. [35:02] But he won that game against Miami. He kept giving them extra shots. And that's invaluable. [35:10] This rookie class was spectacular. Great. Flag, who I feel terrible not voting for Rookie of the Year because I think he's going to be a possible...

[35:19] generational guy, right? And it's not his fault. I think he's going to be fine. [35:26] Dylan Harper... [35:27] I was even in the preseason like, okay, I guess we're doing this, watching him, and he – [35:34] I was saying a while ago, he reminds me of... [35:37] More of a guy like from your era. [35:40] Like he's not really a three-point shooter. He can shoot him. [35:43] But he really wants to get close to the basket. He wants to bang bodies. He wants to [35:47] field dudes against him before he decides what to do. He's now like 85. Yeah. He plays like a grown man. Like, he... [35:55] Finishes in traffic as well as anybody in our league. And he's a rookie. [35:59] He is going to attack. He's another guy. We were talking about Steph. You know he's looking for this shot. But you know when Dylan's coming at you, he's not looking to shoot a jumper. [36:09] He's trying to get to the basket. Right. And he's like, stop it because I don't think you can. [36:14] the toughness of that team, you think about those guys, they've added... [36:22] Every guy they've added is tough. It sounds like you think they're going to win the title. [36:26] I think they could. I do worry about, I mean, if you watch the game last night, Golden State won because they had a bunch of bets. Yeah. Then just know how to win. And that's the only thing that scares me with San Antonio. And then the only other thing is can they shoot the ball well enough? [36:47] when it's time to shoot the ball.

[36:49] Like they can shoot, they're a good shooting team. But can they shoot it well enough down the stretch? [36:55] That would be the two. Defensively, they'll be fine. [36:58] I have three concerns and they're all small. One is Wemby holding up for 10 weeks because he's seven foot seven. And I'm always worried about him. And I think people are going to be really physical with him. So that's one. [37:09] Two is the shooting... [37:11] especially when they're like up 10, 12, 12, [37:14] And they don't really have that. [37:16] inside outside it's really harper but i don't think they're going to have him out there in these situations but that guy who could just kind of create a shot [37:23] That's not a three or it's not a Wemby play. Yeah, Fox can do that a little bit with the in-between game. So he's the third one is Fox, who's used to being the guy. [37:32] But now he's on this team with all these different weapons and he's got to step back and do the 1989 Isaiah. Yeah. [37:38] I think he's navigated pretty well this year. You can see in games he picks and chooses. Some games he's aggressive, some games he's not. Early in the year, I was worried about it. [37:50] And then as the season went on, I'm like, man, he's kind of, [37:54] kind of accepted. Right, because they started winning. They put together winning streets. I just wonder in the playoffs if it gets to Nutcrunch time. [38:02] I'm just going to be because they're going to need him. He's going to have to be the guy. It's like, guys, I got this. [38:08] He's going to have to be the guy. It's going to have to be him. At times, but they're sitting in the kitchen sink at Wendy. And so I agree with that. I think it would have to be him for sure. So do you believe in that?

[38:20] the old guys on the couch philosophy of the bright lights are really bright and you have to have played in a few of these to really understand that? Because you can even feel that in the Charlotte playing game. It's like, oh, this is a different level of pressure, guys. These threes aren't going in now. I mean, Con didn't even get back in. No. No. He's 20. He's 20. [38:40] And he actually did have that look like, whoa. Right. But I don't. I just think there's something different about them. [38:47] You know, we thought that about Oklahoma, and then they couldn't win the first year, and then they came back. [38:53] So if you just believe in history, [38:57] you would have to say, [38:59] The history says no, but I think my eyes tell me something different is about them. [39:06] Um, [39:07] I would be shocked if they won. [39:09] And I wouldn't be shocked if they did. You know what I mean by that? Because of that. So, but they're fun to watch. So they would have to basically beat Denver in round two. [39:19] They're going to have to beat OKC in round three. [39:22] And then somebody good from the East in round four. That would be the best. And they're going to have three physical series of Portland. [39:31] Let's talk about Portland. Yeah, they're a little dangerous. Portland is dangerous because Portland has size. Yeah. [39:38] They have size and they have real defenders. Like they can defend one through five. [39:44] Um, [39:45] So that series, San Antonio is going to win, but I'm telling you, it's not going to be an easy series. Where Portland will struggle is can they score?

[39:54] Yeah, it's Denier bust. You can feel that even in the playing game. He was awesome at 41. And I hadn't even looked at those head-to-head, but my guess is what he does. [40:07] his drive to the basket well [40:09] That's what Wimby does too, defensively. [40:12] he's going to have to get those same layups. [40:16] Overwinded. [40:17] So that's going to affect him a little bit. Yeah, because he... [40:21] He's one of those guys, he goes right every single time. And you're like, just play him so he doesn't go right. It's like, okay. And then he goes right again. It's like, why did you let him go right? It's like Vinny Johnson. Yeah, Vinny Johnson of the business went right. Mike Fritello cussed me out 50 times. And I'm like, in my brain, I'm like, coach, I swear to God, I'm trying to make him go left. He just won't. He keeps going right. Man, it was like that the other way, going left. Yeah, going left. I know you're going left. I can't stop you, but I know you're doing that. [40:51] Thank you. [40:52] I mean, I was like half of all those guys, but I was only going right. And I remember late in my career, a rookie walked up to me before, you know, on the jump ball and said, hey, Doc, you're not going right today. And you know what I told him? I said, well, I'm not going left. [41:07] right and so something's gonna happen and that's what these guys think like [41:12] I'm good at going left. You're not going to take me away from it. And he thinks I'm good at going right. You can do all that stuff, but I'm getting there. [41:19] I wish Portland wasn't playing San Antonio because it's funny. The upset teams to me heading in around one were Portland,

[41:26] And Atlanta... [41:27] And then each of them ended up with a draw. [41:30] that you just don't want them to have, right? Portland... [41:35] Wemby's just the Loch Ness monster waiting for him. And then Atlanta was all set up to play Cleveland and then effed up the last day of the season. [41:43] And now they have to play the Knicks. Yeah, I still wouldn't want to play Atlanta. They're good. They're long. They're athletic. [41:50] What they've done right before trade deadline is bringing shooters in and adding shooting to that team with the size and the length they have. [41:59] is unbelievable. You know, Brunson is going to, they're going to put everybody on. Right. [42:06] it's going to be a hard number. Brunson has his numbers. He's killed Atlanta. [42:10] in the regular season. He probably will in the playoffs because he's that special. But [42:15] He's going to get worn out. [42:17] Like that is not a team you want to see. [42:20] New York better do quick work or it's going to be a dangerous series. [42:24] Yeah, I was looking at the odds for the series on Fandle. The next 3-1 favorites... [42:31] that. [42:32] It feels like a seven gamer to me. [42:34] Yeah. [42:35] Maybe six, but at least six, maybe seven. The problem when you play the Knicks, this is my fear for the Celtics too, is... [42:43] You feel like [42:44] I feel like you have them for 44 minutes. And then it's like a three-point game with four minutes left. Now they're in the Brunson versus your best guy contest. And he's really good at that. [42:55] Yeah, it's certain teams, like if you're playing the Lakers, you know, when they're healthy.

[43:00] Well, all you have to do is get the game for the last five minutes. Right. And then it's Luka versus whoever you have. Yeah. And then reads. Like, there are certain teams like that. You know, when you're playing the Knicks, you know, if it gets to a single possession game, [43:15] They got Brunson, and then they got this guy, Kat, standing out at the three that will make a shot on you. [43:21] they become very difficult. That's why the Celtics are tough. They got two guys. [43:27] You know, plus they do it all game, but they have two guys down the stretch. They can take over a game. When you have multiple guys. [43:35] It's tough. [43:36] It really is. [43:37] Were you surprised that they were able to [43:41] slide Tatum back. [43:43] into the minutes and juggle whatever Jalen's having this, one of the great late bloomer [43:50] borderline MVP candidate seasons. And he's finally the guy. Now here comes Tatum. [43:56] Now I got to balance that. You know, that can go great or that could have gone bad, but right. [44:02] What did you think was going to happen? I didn't know. [44:07] Obviously, I talk to Sam all the time, but I did think... [44:12] They had the equity of a title. [44:14] And so that kind of makes them want to play right. [44:18] Right. Right. [44:19] I also thought [44:21] Joe did his best work there. [44:23] Like he made it clear. [44:25] Um, this is Jalen Brown's team this year. Um, and then you got to give a ton of credit to Tatum.

[44:32] Mm. [44:33] He just wanted to play. [44:36] Like he just wants to play. He wants to be Tatum and he's going to be Tatum. [44:40] But, you know, listen, I think in Payton's mind is I'm back. I'm healthy. I have a chance to win another title. And Jalen Brown was the MVP of the last finals. So it's not a big deal to me. [44:50] I just want to win. So there was a lot of things going for them, but it could have went really bad. [44:55] Uh, and, and it has not. Now they haven't gotten into the playoffs yet. So if they get pushed, we may see something, but I don't think so. I think they are a made team. You know what I mean by that? Like, [45:07] They understand... [45:09] Each guy understands his role. And Joe does a great job of accountability. He really does. Well, I said this the other day on a pod that it's his team, which is how this solved itself. It's not Jaylin's team or Jason. It's actually Joe Bazzulla's team. So we solved it that way. He's running the team. That's the easiest. That's exactly right. And he makes that clear. It's... [45:30] It says a lot about where the NBA is in 2026, because I think those guys aren't best friends. [45:36] But they're good. And I think they both want the same thing. But what can happen, and you... [45:40] you had a lot of this happen to you the last 12 months with the Bucks, but [45:45] It's all the people around the guys and it's all the... [45:49] insider and this guy heard this and that heard that or somebody who you know is friends with one of the players and they're saying something on a show or a pod and this stuff takes a life of its own that doesn't even start. It really does. [46:02] You know, and like there's

[46:04] If everyone wrote an article about someone having to blow up in a locker room, every team would be on blast. You know what I mean? People have no idea, Bill, how often and how much that happens. And honestly, I've always thought it should happen if you lose a bad game. [46:23] There should be some tension. [46:25] There should be some tension. That's part of it. And the good teams get through it, though. They look at it and they take growth from it. And the average and the bad teams let it hold them now. [46:37] They still hold on to it. It gets out. [46:41] You know, people talk about it, that the player said this or a coach. Those are the bad teams. Those are the guys that... [46:48] The good teams, you don't find out about it. They keep it inside. They make it. [46:56] part of their growth, their shift. All right, let's fight about this. [47:00] Let's take another step. [47:01] And to me, you can see it. I've always said the most beautiful thing in the world is the finals because you have two teams usually. [47:10] that have [47:11] committed themselves completely to the team. They've literally given themselves to the team and they play that way. And that's why watching the finals is so beautiful. [47:20] because there's no BS. There's no fighting. This is my team. And if there is, that team's going to lose. [47:27] Like it's so obvious. I always looked at the first Miami year with LeBron Wade. They didn't win. [47:34] Um,

[47:35] Because they played a team, the Spurs, and they played a team. [47:38] who were completely Mavericks. [47:41] Yeah, the Mavericks, who they were so together. [47:45] Yeah. [47:46] You know, Deshaun Stevenson, I remember, was a kid that started and Rick put him on the bench. [47:52] and [47:53] No issues. Right. [47:55] There was no issues like it was about the team and winning. [47:59] And so then the next year, they came back and they were like that. [48:04] That lesson was taught to them. [48:07] You know, and so. Well, think about the flip side of that, because I think a good example for this is the 2019 Warriors that. [48:15] Third KD season. [48:16] And they had that thing happen with Draymond and KD in the Clipper game, which were you coaching the Clippers that year? Yeah. Yeah. I was coaching. And you knew that was different. [48:25] It felt different on the court. You could see it on the bench. It was like, oh, this is a bad one. And it turned out it was a bad one. Yeah, it was the first time it was real. [48:33] You remember that game. Draymond took that shot. Since the game in the overtime, he was [48:42] And they looked all for an overtime. We went on and won the game. [48:45] And then I heard afterwards, it's so funny, as a coach, you don't know any of this crap is going on. You're coaching your team. And then in the press conference, that's all they're asking me about. And I'm like, guys, I didn't know that was going on. I'm happy it's going on. It's the other team. [49:03] But that never left him. That stuck with him.

[49:07] The Bill Simmons Podcast is brought to you by FanDuel. NBA fans, this is your reminder to check in daily. And I mean daily, because every day during the playoffs, FanDuel is serving up a happy hour. Special drops you won't want to miss. [49:20] Profit boosts. [49:22] Bonus bets, much more. The best part, it's every single day. [49:26] including [49:27] today as we head toward the playoffs. [49:29] I was looking at series parlay steps. As you know, I love to pick upsets. I had Indiana last year. I love nothing more than a round one upset with a nice juicy underdog number. [49:41] I don't see it this year. I really think the best series bet is a four series parlay with the Spurs and Boston money lines. [49:50] along with the Denver money line and the New York money line. [49:53] And all four of those series would have to win. And it is plus 120 on FanDuel. And I think that's the one... [49:59] I would recommend the most out of any of these. [50:02] I really wanted to take Toronto again. I just don't think Toronto's going to beat the Knicks. I think that series is going to be good and close. And I think it goes six or seven, but I think the Knicks win. Anyway, check that one out. And I'm going to be tweeting... [50:16] Picks and all kinds of stuff. [50:18] during the course of the playoffs and showing you your best FanDuel possibilities. We've been hot lately. [50:25] Just check out what's going on on the last three episodes. [50:29] Wednesdays slash Tuesdays, we hit. [50:31] including Wednesday, [50:33] or Tuesday, Wednesday, told you Portland, [50:36] Take them against Phoenix. Parlay them with Charlotte Moneyline and Philly Moneyline. Everything we had. So we have a little momentum right now. Check out

[50:45] Uh, Fandle for a new reward every single day of the NBA playoffs. Don't miss your shot to get a little extra out of the action. Head to Fandle.com slash BS to get started. [50:54] 21 plus select states are 18 plus DC, Kentucky, Wyoming. Restrictions apply. See terms at sportsbook.fando.com. Game problem, call 1-800-GAMBLER. Call [redacted phone] or visit ccpg.org slash chat in Connecticut. [51:07] This episode is brought to you by State Farm. [51:10] Countless hours in the gym, a thousand shots before tip-off, day after day on the same court. [51:17] with the State Farm stanchion right there. That's right. The best players ever. [51:22] Put in the work. And State Farm is the same way with insurance experts who put in the work as well. Whether you get a digital quote, [51:28] or reach out to a local agent. [51:30] State Farm is there to get to know you. [51:33] and help you select the right coverage that fits your life, [51:36] and your budget. [51:37] Putting the work is what separates the good players from the great, and that's why you want State Farm. [51:42] on your team. [51:43] So get the coverage that's right for you. [51:45] Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. Coverage options are selected by the customer. Availability and eligibility vary. [51:52] by state. [51:53] We didn't talk about Maxie in Philly. [51:56] You love Maxie. I love him. Maxie was like one of your all time favorites from day one. Yeah. You've, you've, [52:02] touted his virtues nonstop. [52:05] He was awesome this year. I have him third. I had to third team all NBA just because I have to put a center on each team. But he's going to be second. [52:13] And if they're going to give the Celtics any semblance of a chance, it's going to be because of him. And Zach and I did a pot. Little guards bother Boston. Like, they struggle with the quick, fast guys. And actually, it's just not that he's just so quick and fast. He's now finishing left or right.

[52:31] He is an elite shooter. [52:34] He's not a good shooter. He's an elite shooter. He's tough as nails. And what he's really done, and I'm so proud of him, he's become a leader. He is the leader of that team. [52:44] There is no doubt about who's the leader of the Sixers. And it's really cool for a guy that that young and, [52:51] such a great high character guy. Uh, [52:55] to have taken that step this quickly. [52:57] Yeah. [52:58] So you mentioned they're not, Celtics aren't great against guards like that. [53:03] They're also because they love offensive rebound and they're crashing the boards constantly. Yeah. [53:07] and you don't get the board... [53:09] And the teams that just go, oh, boom, we're off. It's like hockey. It's like a two-on-one or three-on-two. [53:15] I think Max is the best in the league at that. [53:17] of like, oh, I have numbers. Boom. I'm going 700 miles an hour. [53:22] Yeah, he doesn't even need numbers. But when he has numbers, you're in trouble. And where he's really improved is his passing. [53:28] In the two years I had him, he could get to the basket, but he couldn't see a lot. Now, he sees a lot. He's making guys better. I'm just watching him this year. There's games like when Joel and Paul George and Edgecombe were playing well. He kind of... [53:47] he's fine with taking a step back. And then when they need him, he takes back over. So his growth has been unbelievable. They're not going to be easy to beat. I know everyone says Joel's not coming back.

[54:01] uh [54:02] I don't believe that. I think he will play in the series. And I have no reason to say that. I just think it's too important not to. [54:10] I think we will see him... [54:12] at some point in the series, but probably a little later. And by the way, that might be down like 3-1 by the time it happens. Yeah, if you see them then, you may not see them. But if it's... Right. [54:21] You know, if you're Philly, you're thinking, if I can get one of these first two, [54:25] And then I can win one at home. It's two, two. [54:30] And then we get the big fella back. Right. [54:33] There's pressure at it. Well, one thing, and you've seen that crowd in various stages of either... [54:39] just horrified or really great. [54:42] They love Maxie and they love Edgecombe. And there's real energy. These home games, you could feel it in that Orlando game. They fucking love those guys. [54:50] And... [54:51] I don't know. I think they're going to be tough to beat in Philly. [54:54] Boston can't lose one of those first two. [54:58] But honestly... [55:00] If you lose one of those first two in this series to a Philly team without Embiid, then that probably says more about Boston. They got to take care of business. You got to win the first two. But, you know, good teams, they can still win. You know what I mean? Yeah, no, I get it. It's just like, look at this. They better play well because the longer the series goes on, it allows Joel to come closer to getting back. And you put Joel Embiid in that series, it's a tough series. [55:25] I got an email from a listener because I've been doing more mailbag stuff. [55:30] Wow. I don't dare listen to my mail. That's true.

[55:36] Somebody asked if Joel is the unluckiest superstar ever. [55:40] In the history of the NBA. [55:43] I think we can make a case for Bill Walton. [55:47] Oh, wow. That's a good answer. But I think Joe Ellis had more injuries to different parts of his body. [55:55] And just things happen and bad luck and orbital bone. And Walton just had feet issues and be like, [56:01] It's like a year. It's a different something like, I mean, I remember the first, you know, I had three years there. Right. Yeah. The first year. [56:08] was the game five against Washington, the closeout game? Yeah. I thought he tore his knee. I mean, that looked bad. [56:17] The second year, and I'm messing him up, another knee injury. The third year, he gets, no, the second year gets hit in the face. Right. And then he also hurts his hand. You remember he had the, he had to have surgery in his hand. He breaks his face bone. So he has to wear a mask. Then the third year, he had another, he had a meniscus injury. I'm like. [56:40] And then this year, he has appendix. I mean, come on. Like, you can't make this stuff up. [56:44] And, [56:45] So yeah, it's really rough because I'm telling you, and I've told you this, he's as talented as I've ever seen. And I really believe, like if I had had him, especially the first year, um, [56:58] in that Atlanta series and he was healthy. I do believe we advance. Um, you know, um, [57:05] Well, we talked about that before. That's one of the all-time what the hell happened in that series series. I mean, Ben Simmons' career was never the same after that.

[57:13] He literally died during the series. No, it literally happened. You know, we laugh about it. It wasn't funny at the time. I remember telling Sam Cassell in the Washington series, you know, they haven't filed Ben at all. [57:27] in a series and I swear game one it gets to play Atlanta or you're like oh boy [57:33] That was a fisherman. [57:36] Yeah. He's a professional fisherman. This guy was 13 on NBA. He's not even in his 30s yet. That year he had with me there, he was amazing. [57:44] He looked like LeBron-ish. [57:48] LeBron-ish or magic-ish. Remember the decision we made was we put the ball in his hands full time. That was great until... [57:57] the playoffs and when they start following them then he didn't want the ball anymore and that crushed our offense but [58:04] Man, I'm telling you, I'm shocked that he's not playing basketball. He is so talented. [58:12] We didn't talk about the trade. [58:14] What made them go up a level in your opinion? I have my thoughts, but what was different about them this year versus last year? [58:21] Oh, boy, that's a good question. Well, I thought Cade took a huge jump. [58:25] number one. As good as it was last year, [58:29] He's one of the top five players in the league now. Wow. Or in that area. Yeah, yeah. You know, there's so many guys. And then Durham. [58:38] took a jump that I didn't see coming. [58:42] I never thought he would be able to score and play with the finesse game that he has played with this year. I didn't see that coming.

[58:51] You forget how young he is, Bill. And so... [58:55] I think that those two things are the reason they are where they're at. And then the last thing, [59:02] They did something that no team needs to do. They bought into who they are. [59:07] They really bought into their identity. You know, like when you hear Miami, you hear the heat culture, right? And they buy into it. Well, Detroit basketball, they have bought into it. [59:18] And I think that that carries a lot of weight for them. [59:22] Yeah, and one of the reasons I had him second-team All-NBA during – [59:26] is I felt like, [59:28] The physicality. [59:30] and the attitude they have, it kind of starts with him. He's out of your era. You could see him getting into it with Anthony Mason in game five of a Knicks Piston series. [59:40] He's a complete throwback and carries himself that way. No, he carries himself like he's the baddest man on the floor. [59:48] There's nothing you can do about it. Then they have the ultimate guy off the bench who will fight anybody. He'll come off the bench to fight you. I love the comment he made in the one fight where he came off the bench. [1:00:02] And he said, what do you expect me to do? Right. Like, this is who I am. And they have Ron Holland, who's also ready to rumble. Yeah. They have a bunch of guys that are just ready to go. And, you know, because he's one of my personal favorites. I'm just so happy for Tobias. [1:00:19] because it was so rough for him in Philly. And now to see him...

[1:00:24] be a leader, be the vet of the team is really cool. Like I love when good things happen to good people and it's happening to Devise and good for him. [1:00:33] And they actually need him. [1:00:35] Because without Cade, there's not a lot of guys who can create their own shot. And it's amazing how many times... [1:00:43] He had the ball with three minutes left, a minute 30 left, where he had to basically create a 17-footer from scratch. [1:00:49] And he was able to do it. I thought he was really good this year. He's been great. And that's the only thing that scares me is can they shoot well enough even though they're high and when they look at their offensive rating in top five or whatever, I still worry about [1:01:04] Can they... [1:01:06] play well enough offensively to win. [1:01:10] That'll be the biggest question. So what's your finals then? [1:01:15] Do you have... [1:01:16] Who's coming out of the East if you had to, if your life depended on it? Who would you pick? Well, Paul. How about if Larry's life depended on it? [1:01:24] Yeah, that's easier. I'm still going Boston. But [1:01:28] Uh, [1:01:30] Thank you. [1:01:31] then it's a dangerous story. [1:01:33] I know people want to crap on the Knicks. You're picturing the choir. I'm afraid of them. I just don't understand why. They didn't maybe play great every regular season game, but they're deep. [1:01:45] They're deep. And they can defend. They can defend wins. They can defend guards. And they can score. And I would not be surprised if the Knicks made it to the finals at all. So those are the two teams that I would have. My fear with the Knicks is

[1:02:00] there was the game, Missoula kind of threw away the last Knicks game because I don't think he wanted to show them anything. But he did have Tatum playing and Tatum needed to get over that hump of being at MSG, right? Which is the worst moment of his life. You got to get him back out there. [1:02:14] And Ananobi was just doing the Draymond thing. He was just in his personal space the entire game and really likes guarding Tatum. [1:02:22] And Tatum, [1:02:24] is 96% back, 94% back, but the first step stuff still isn't totally there yet. I thought Anobi was... Yeah, the explosive stuff is coming back, but not 100% there. I just, you know... [1:02:37] Like that, like the Celtics destroyed the Knicks all year. [1:02:41] Yeah. Right. And then they beat them that last game. [1:02:44] I know that doesn't mean much, and it usually doesn't, but in this case, because the Knicks beat them last year in the playoff series, the Knicks, to put it this way, the Knicks... [1:02:55] When they play the Celtics, if they play the Celtics, [1:02:59] They will not be a team lacking confidence. They won't be. [1:03:03] And that's where Detroit, when you look at Detroit, [1:03:07] they haven't been to a first round yet. So in a lot of ways, and they're really, people forget how young Detroit is. Yeah. Like people talk about San Antonio. [1:03:18] in Oklahoma. [1:03:19] But then I'm talking about our young... [1:03:21] The defenses are. [1:03:22] And they're really young and they've never advanced. So this is going to be a big year for them to take that next step.

[1:03:30] You know what the secret Celtics sauce is that they didn't do in that next game, and I think they've been saving it. [1:03:37] is when they play Tatum at the five, which I think they're going to do. And I think... [1:03:42] Tatum Brown, a shooter, and the two guards – [1:03:45] I think it's going to be the lineup against the Knicks because they were playing Cata and crunch time against the Knicks. I just don't think they're going to do that. I think they're going to go smaller. [1:03:53] and try to [1:03:54] and just basically have shooting and just try to attack them, attack Towns. Yeah, you can put a smaller guy on Towns because he's away from the basket. And one of the areas Towns struggles is when you get up under him. He struggles with that. Now, where I think people should give Towns credit is he has learned now. He goes down low way more, and he's rebounding at an unbelievable clip. And I'm telling you, their rebounding is a factor. [1:04:23] Right. Especially with Mitch. Yeah. We didn't talk about Cleveland. Did you see post [1:04:29] Did you play them post-hard and trade or no? Yeah, we played them twice. We beat them once, lost to them once. So defensively, they're worse. Offensively, they're more interesting. Is it... [1:04:41] Like, you know, obviously as somebody... [1:04:44] I'm talking about me that has just lost all faith in James Harden as a playoff guy, but maybe he doesn't have to be as much of a playoff guy. But what is it? I don't know. Cause I, this is what I'd say about James. And you know, this is what I said about him when I coached him. The one thing I loved about him is he plays.

[1:05:01] He never misses games. [1:05:03] And I know that sounds trivial, but [1:05:06] All the other guys, he does it. He wants to play every day, and he does that. What I liked about him, Bill, is I don't know, and I always talk about that one year we had with him. In the first half of the year, he literally was a scoring point guard, and we were amazing. And then that second half, he wanted to start scoring again, and it kind of upset the rhythm with Joel and all that. [1:05:30] If he stays in that role, [1:05:32] where he's going to be a scoring, like still scoring time. [1:05:35] But man, [1:05:37] I'm telling you, his passing is so underrated. He's not just a, he's one of the elite passers in our league. And when he plays at that where he's still aggressive scoring, but really setting people up, they have two rollers. Like James Harden plays well with bigs that roll. [1:05:58] where he struggled with Joel is Joe Woodrow. Joe was like, I don't need the row. I'm Joel than me. Just give me the ball. [1:06:05] Um, [1:06:06] But he has two leagues in a row. [1:06:08] And I, [1:06:09] So it's going to be interesting to, [1:06:11] I was surprised when I heard Kenny, you know, the press conference about their defense. I hadn't noticed it because we hadn't been watching him. And I still haven't seen him enough to tell you. [1:06:22] How much worse is it? I don't know that. But if they don't play defense, you're not winning, period. [1:06:27] Yeah, the advanced metrics aren't great. [1:06:29] It's teams...

[1:06:32] It's an up and down team now. I think it's harder for them to get stops. They're kind of a wild card though because... [1:06:38] They're in the Detroit side of the bracket. They lucked out. They have Toronto, who didn't beat any of the top three teams at all this year. And that's a pretty easy series, I think. And then hopefully Detroit gets deer in the headlights, and all of a sudden you're in the Knicks and the Celtics beat the crap out of each other. [1:06:55] Yeah, I do think Toronto is another... I think Cleveland will win that series. But the one thing I'd say about Toronto is they're big and physical. And they're going to bang you up. They're going to physically... [1:07:07] bother you and even if it's a five game series it's not going to be a physically easy series for cleveland that's gonna be a very physical series [1:07:16] What was your quick LeBron James take? [1:07:20] age 41. So... [1:07:22] It's amazing. Did this just stop making sense to you like four years ago? Yeah, it stopped making sense five years ago. You were coaching T-Mac at age 41. Yeah, I mean, it's crazy, right? Like, [1:07:33] What he's doing, a couple of great things about LeBron. First of all, just physically, come on. [1:07:40] Like he had some dunks this year that happily could not do now. [1:07:44] And it's amazing. [1:07:47] The other thing that he's done that most stars don't do, [1:07:52] The old adage in coaching is never coach an aging superstar. They're going to get you fired. [1:07:59] I mean, every coach would tell, especially back in the day, don't take an aging superstar because they're going to keep thinking they can do what they could do 10 years ago and they can't. And you're going to have to be the guy that tells them.

[1:08:11] You know, where I give LeBron credit, [1:08:14] Is he... [1:08:16] did it himself. He kind of [1:08:18] He sees what Luque is. It's not hard to see. [1:08:21] But he sees what Austin Reeves is and he gives them room. He's like, [1:08:26] You know, when you need me, I'm over here. [1:08:28] He plays the role. [1:08:30] And I listen, most guys don't do that. And especially we're talking about one of the greatest players to ever play. [1:08:38] doing that. [1:08:39] It says a lot about LeBron James. And, you know, people want to knock him and, you know, [1:08:45] It says a lot about him as a human. [1:08:47] It really does. So you're excited to watch him on Golden State next year with Steph Drayvon and Al Horford? Yeah. Yeah. I don't think he'll be. You don't think he'll be back with the Lakers. [1:08:58] I would bet on Golden State. [1:09:00] I think they're going to do the old guy, the Sylvester Stallone expendables. We're getting the... [1:09:06] our generation, here we go. We're going to get everyone together. So they're going to get like... [1:09:11] Carl Malone, Gary Payton, Jack. Yeah, yeah, whatever version of that. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. But the irony is the Warriors could have really used somebody like LeBron last night. Like he, you know, he does a lot of stuff. So I'm watching. Who was your MVP, just out of curiosity? Who do you think should have won the MVP this year? [1:09:29] Well, it's a tough one for me. Stay... [1:09:32] will probably win. That's probably who I would have voted for. Wimby, I keep going back to the defensive thing. Why we don't give a guy's

[1:09:45] enough credit for what they do defensively. [1:09:48] And you can, if Wimby won it, [1:09:52] It wouldn't bother me. There was a moment when it seemed like he was going to. I don't think he, like for me, I really... [1:09:58] And he didn't have the minutes. Jokic played, I think, 400-plus more minutes than he did in... [1:10:05] He barely got the minimum. I didn't like that he skipped the last game of the year when they had beaten Denver. They moved Denver down to the four seed. Why wouldn't you want to do that? What do you want to play Denver for? Yeah, I think that was more of a team choice. Yeah, but that was a bad choice. Yeah. [1:10:19] Yeah, the other thing, though, is the Joker... [1:10:23] We have voter fatigue. [1:10:26] Because if you just went by numbers... [1:10:29] He wins every year. [1:10:32] You know, like, you know, there are a couple of guys that wanted in Michael's heyday. But when you go back and look at the numbers, you're like, [1:10:39] What were the voters doing? [1:10:41] What were they thinking? That was like the year when Malone beat Jordan that one year. [1:10:47] It seems like the stupidest thing that ever happened now. So I said the other day I was going to vote for SGA and I was agonized over it. Cause I was like, I can't believe I'm not voting for yoga. And she, he had the best offensive season ever. [1:10:59] Not only his career, but one of the best I've ever seen. And now, because we don't have to turn our own ballots until this weekend because we had the appeals, [1:11:07] I'm wavering. I might actually vote for Jokic. Because I'm like, I don't want to be 10 years from now. How did I not vote for Jokic? The guy led the league in the system rebounds. 10 years from now.

[1:11:16] People are going to look at the numbers. [1:11:19] It's like, [1:11:20] didn't vote for this guy. You know, having said that, [1:11:24] The numbers aren't always the whole story. Right. And what Shea does every night, [1:11:31] He's good every night. [1:11:33] Well, that's the Jalen Brown case, too. When I know I'm getting 30 from my guy every night, my team can behave differently. Yeah, an efficient scoring. And what Shea also does is that was stretched. [1:11:47] He takes the game over. [1:11:48] Yeah. [1:11:49] He's the best crunch time guy in the league. The stats, I test everything. You know what's coming and you can't do anything about it. Um, [1:11:56] Yeah, so that's why he'll win to me because of that. [1:12:00] Well, it sounds like you're picking Wemby. [1:12:03] stuff. I would probably pick [1:12:06] say, [1:12:07] honestly, but it really, it's tough for me not to pick Wimby because of the defensive portion. And as good as Shea is and Joker, none of them play defense. None of them change the game defensively like Wimby does. [1:12:19] All right. We've come to the point when we have to talk about the Bucs season. [1:12:23] Oh, Lord. [1:12:26] It seemed horrible from afar. Didn't seem like a fun time. [1:12:30] It wasn't, but it could have been. I will say that. Like the getting off to the start, you know, it's before the season, you know, [1:12:38] I said something to my coaches. There's two guys that can't get hurt. [1:12:42] Um, [1:12:42] Giannis, [1:12:44] Obviously. [1:12:45] and then scoot.

[1:12:47] because we don't have any [1:12:50] facilitators. Yeah. You know, we're not like, we wasn't built like all the other team where they had one and then a second star. [1:12:57] We didn't have a second star. So for us to be a good team, we weren't going to win anything. Bill, we're 26 in spending. [1:13:06] Yeah. You know, um, [1:13:08] So we probably outdid our record. If you match record for record, [1:13:13] versus teams who's going by spending. We probably were one of the better teams in that way. [1:13:18] But at the end of the day, when you start out like that, and then the whole Giannis stuff, [1:13:24] It was just not a lot of fun. [1:13:27] It just wasn't. Yeah, because that started in July. [1:13:30] And just became a running... [1:13:33] narrative. I got a lot of podcast content out of it. I'm sure you did. But for me, and I don't want to go into this alone because it's [1:13:45] Thank you. [1:13:45] a lot of his life [1:13:47] When you're around Giannis and then what you hear on the outside, [1:13:51] It was two different worlds. [1:13:54] And that's where, from a coaching standpoint, is very difficult because I talk to Giannis every day. [1:14:01] And you see these reports and I'm like, I'm wondering that any of these guys have one conversation with Giannis. Because I think a lot of people at the end of the day were talking for him. [1:14:11] I don't know if they necessarily... [1:14:15] We're doing that. [1:14:16] in what he was actually saying.

[1:14:18] And it made things murky. [1:14:20] And it made things very, very difficult. And then the end of the season with this whole thing was rough. It was just tough. You're talking about the Shams piece? No. The Shams piece, I literally... [1:14:34] I just try to ignore it because it's the point that I was making. Like, yeah, we had a tough meeting after a game that we blew. [1:14:43] Like, again... [1:14:44] If you go into any locker room, why is that news? But it's more like the whole Giannis, did he play, not play? [1:14:52] It was tough. Like, [1:14:54] And I saw it like I [1:14:57] As a coach, I could literally see it from both sides of it. [1:15:00] And I really could. And when I talked to Giannis and we talked a lot, I told him that. [1:15:06] you know, and [1:15:08] It's just, you know, [1:15:09] where the human side of me, [1:15:12] Bill. [1:15:13] is... [1:15:14] Um, [1:15:15] The Bucs front office has done an amazing job overall, like to win a title and to get there. They're good people. And then you have Giannis, who I'm telling you is a good person. [1:15:25] Yeah. And, and, [1:15:26] There are, [1:15:27] both, you know, over all the stuff, [1:15:30] And I don't think Giannis knows if he wants to stay or not. And I don't know if the organization knows one way or not either. [1:15:37] And it just, it's too bad because... [1:15:41] I just hope that part is figured out. [1:15:43] When you win a title with someone, [1:15:47] There's like a blood transfusion and that transfusion shouldn't be broken. And that part is the one that I wanted to figure out.

[1:15:53] So it stopped. Yeah, because you had that in Boston when the KG Pierce era was coming to an end, and you were coming to an end there, too. Yeah. [1:16:00] You had the umbilical cord of that title. [1:16:04] And it's tough to just be like, all right, we ran our course here. Because I told you this last summer. I thought they should have traded Giannis last summer. [1:16:11] And I didn't, [1:16:12] I didn't like the Dame stretch, bringing Miles in. I understand why you did it, because you were trying basically to create a situation where Giannis retired with the Bucs, right? Yeah. You didn't want to just throw away a year when you didn't have your pick. But it was... [1:16:26] It was almost an impossible situation. [1:16:29] It still didn't give us a second, like, [1:16:32] Star to go to. [1:16:33] In retrospect, when you think about it, [1:16:36] Um, [1:16:38] But, you know, Bill, I don't know about the whole trade thing. This is where I struggle. I'm being honest with you. Like, what if a guy wants to stay? Where is that? He's won a title and he wants to play his whole career there. Like, what's wrong with that? [1:16:52] Especially when he won the title so he doesn't have to go chase one. I'm looking like Joker. [1:16:59] Joker never wins again. Should he leave? How about Curry? Curry doesn't want to go. Curry could go to Charlotte tomorrow if he wanted. Yeah, he would never do that. He wants to play... [1:17:08] and be a Golden State Warrior. And if Giannis did decide that, [1:17:13] And the front office decided that, [1:17:17] Okay, there's nothing wrong with that. That's the only thing that bothered me during the season and during the summer about it. It's like knowing, you know...

[1:17:25] No one has asked Giannis [1:17:28] What do you want? [1:17:30] And that's where you hear one side wants to leave, one side wants to stay. [1:17:36] I don't know if he's made up his mind either way yet. [1:17:41] And that's okay. [1:17:43] The thing that was... [1:17:44] Right. The thing that's been going around since July in the NBA circles, which... [1:17:50] sometimes can be unreliable, sometimes can be pretty reliable. It was like, [1:17:54] Giannis wants to leave, but he doesn't want to be the one that asked for a trade. Like, that's what we've. [1:17:59] around the league. That's what's been going on since August. Exactly. That's what you hear. But that's not exactly what's [1:18:07] Say it every day. So are you talking to him and be like, yo, Giannis, let's. [1:18:11] Do you want to get traded or not? Did you ask him? No, never because it wasn't my place, but [1:18:17] We talk about a lot of stuff, and I just think that he's still... [1:18:22] I think... [1:18:23] He has this thing about him that [1:18:25] He wants to, he would love to, like, what did he say on the trade deadline day? [1:18:31] you know, [1:18:32] I'm a buck or whatever. Yeah. And something like that. I think he thinks that way. And so I think leaving is very difficult for him. So you may be right. Maybe he wants to leave. I don't even know the answer to that. I just know it's not as cut and dry. [1:18:48] as people try to make it out to be. And it's not as easy of a situation as people think it is. [1:18:53] - Yeah, well the problem is they traded a lot to get Drew.

[1:18:56] So you're giving up future pay, excess assets, all that stuff. And it works. You win the title. [1:19:02] Then you go all in again on the Dame trade. You give up more, basically, the rest of your assets for the 2020s. That's the problem. But Dame gets hurt, which is bad luck. [1:19:12] That was just bad luck. And bad luck happens. Like, [1:19:16] Listen, you don't win unless you're healthy. I would fight today if you told me that KG never got healthy. You never got hurt. We're winning too. [1:19:24] But that's part of it. And the Dame thing was unfortunate. Once he went down and got hurt, Giannis gets hurt. [1:19:33] So, you know, the whole thing about Giannis having advanced in the playoffs, well, Giannis hadn't played in the playoffs. [1:19:40] He's been injured until last year, and then Dane goes down. [1:19:45] The narrative doesn't fit what actually happened. [1:19:50] is what I guess I'm saying. And... [1:19:53] You know, I'm sitting here today. [1:19:56] I can't tell you what's going to happen. [1:19:58] I really can't. [1:20:00] I'm at a point now where I just hope everybody's happy. [1:20:04] Whatever happens. [1:20:05] And that would make me happy. [1:20:08] It really would. [1:20:10] Well, let's have the Doc Rivers exit interview. What could you have done differently? [1:20:14] If you could go back and change shit, what would you, did you feel like you did a good job? No, I didn't. I think I didn't think I did a great job this year. I really did. Now, obviously with all the injuries, it was hard and it's easier to second guess. I thought,

[1:20:32] One of the things that I've always been known for is holding everybody accountable for everything, being on time. And I thought I was very lax in that this year. And there's reasons for that that I can't go into. But yeah. [1:20:44] It bothered me that I wasn't. [1:20:47] Other than that, um... [1:20:50] you know, [1:20:51] Getting guys to buy into their roasts. [1:20:54] I've been very good throughout my career. I look at the teams that I've [1:20:58] Coach Bill, like when you look at even some of the teams that went deep, when you look at them on paper versus the other team, how do they get to [1:21:07] being up in a series. You know, [1:21:09] But that's because everybody bought into the roles. I thought I really struggled to get each guy to see who they really are. [1:21:18] Understand that. [1:21:20] And then play that way. Because I think that's the key to coaching, really. I think that's when we look at Joe and all the good coaches now in our league. [1:21:30] If you can't get each guy to understand who they are and buy into the role for the good of the team, you're not going to win. [1:21:36] Period. So is that, that's it for coaching for you, you think? What do you think? [1:21:40] Yeah, yeah. I mean, we met about [1:21:44] I want to say seven weeks. [1:21:47] ago and we had a me and owners, we had a great meeting. That's why we're all on the same page and they asked me what I wanted to do. One of the owners says, you know, one plan is, you know, if we do this, you know,

[1:22:03] You can hang in there for a year or two. And I literally said, oh, no, no. [1:22:09] No, I was a matter of fact. I told my coaches, like, I'm done. I love coaching. Loved it. I had a lot of success at it. I had some way more ups than downs, you know. [1:22:23] But at the end of the day, [1:22:25] I've given 40 years to [1:22:27] 47 years or whatever. I don't even know how old I am. Straight. Straight, Bill. With no off time. [1:22:35] and [1:22:37] I just wanted a break. I wanted to get away. The grandkids and just life in general, man, like, [1:22:45] Yeah, but the thing is, I don't trust you completely because... [1:22:48] I remember being at dinner with you and Larry and you were saying how great it was not to be coaching, not getting the calls at three in the morning and how relaxed you were. Then all of a sudden it was like, wait, Fox go back to coach the Bucs. What happened? That doesn't mean I don't want to run a team or get in the front office. I've done that. And there's places that would be really fun to do. [1:23:11] But [1:23:12] Right now, I'm not going to be able to do that. [1:23:16] I'm just going to try to sit back and if something comes back coaching, I'm going to look at it. But right now, I can tell you, Bill, I think it was time to, [1:23:26] And so I'd be surprised if I coached another game. I'll put it that way. [1:23:31] You said that last time. I don't know if I trust you. I don't know if I said that last time. I said possibly. This time I'm saying it. But I'm not going to be Ali. I'm not going to keep coming back. At least I hope not.

[1:23:44] How's the golf game these days? [1:23:46] Well, I haven't golfed much. Yeah, so you got to get that back. Yeah, can I say, the golf scene in Milwaukee is amazing, except for January and December. It's really difficult to get a good golf game going. Yeah, February, probably not great either. Not great either. All right. Well, you're going to pop back on every once in a while, right? Yeah. You're going to be watching basketball? I hope so. I love basketball. I know. That's what people... [1:24:11] You know, somebody, I was at dinner last night and I had the... [1:24:15] sitting at the dinner table. [1:24:18] on my phone. And the waiter walks up to me and is like, [1:24:22] I don't get it. [1:24:23] You just retired. Your team's not in it. [1:24:28] You're watching the game like you're prepping. [1:24:31] And I said, I love the game. It's a great game. It's like, you know, I'm actually, I'm really planning on going to a couple of arenas. [1:24:39] It's sitting in a prowl. [1:24:41] and just watch the game. Not in the front, just sit in the crowd and watch the game. I think that would be, I've never done that. [1:24:48] Think about that. I've been to the league for 40, whatever. I've never done that. [1:24:51] So if you see me in a crowd just sitting there drinking a beer, [1:24:55] I'm there because I'm having a great time and I'm going to watch the game. [1:24:59] Wow. [1:25:00] Yeah, you went from playing to... [1:25:03] To coaching. [1:25:04] To announcing, to coaching, to announcing. Yeah, I guess you never had a... [1:25:09] I bet in two games, when Austin came to play the Lakers,

[1:25:15] And I was coaching the Clippers. I said like the fourth row. [1:25:18] Yeah. [1:25:19] And I had a ball. And then we were on the road once when I was with Philly and Austin was with Minnesota. Minnesota was in early. [1:25:26] in New Orleans. And I called New Orleans and said, I want to see like in the seventh row. I do not [1:25:33] They always want to put you on the floor somewhere. I said, I don't want to sit on the floor. And then they were like, well, we're worried about security. I said, I'm good. And me and Sam can sell. [1:25:42] set in like the sixth or seventh row. We fight New Orleans the next night. And it was a ball. The fans were talking crap. I remember at the very end, I turned around and said, hey, see you tomorrow. We're going to kick your ass. Guys are laughing. Like we had a ball. It was so fun. So it was cool. [1:26:00] All right. Well, it's good to have you back. Congrats on the Hall of Fame, by the way. Oh, thank you. That was pretty cool. [1:26:05] That was cool. That was awesome. The call's awesome. [1:26:09] I think I know I'm going to ask. I can't tell you yet to [1:26:12] You can figure out. [1:26:13] I probably have a guess. But it's going to be a really cool thing. And when you make it as a coach, you make it because all the people... [1:26:23] who, [1:26:25] work with you, [1:26:26] been played for you. [1:26:27] You know, you really do. So it was more of a thankful thing for me. [1:26:31] Awesome. Well, it was great to see you. I'll see you in the West Coast, Los Angeles. Very soon. Great to have you back. Missed having you on. Good to see you. Thank you. Good seeing you. [1:26:42] And now it's time for a new segment, Embracing the Era. [1:26:45] It is brought to you by New Era, the official cap.

[1:26:49] of the NBA and they make awesome caps. You should check them out. Take a trip back through time with some of the most iconic, court-defining moments with the new era NBA Hardwood Classics collection. [1:26:59] Let's be honest. [1:27:01] A little hard to top the legendary 80s logo. Some people are partial to the 90s when we started to get a little wacky. [1:27:07] But the 80s. [1:27:08] Oh, yeah. And speaking of the 80s, that was the era that made me an NBA fan. [1:27:13] I was an NBA fan in the 70s. I was going to the games with my dad in 1974. [1:27:19] But the 80s... [1:27:20] When the league became the NBA, Magic and Bird started riding the [1:27:25] to glory, [1:27:26] Michael Jordan showed up. [1:27:28] We had a Celtics-Lakers rivalry. We had those NBA entertainment ads that you can go find on YouTube. [1:27:35] The NBA is fantastic. Slam dunk contests, [1:27:37] Three-point contest. [1:27:39] All that stuff started. And now you can go back in time with the new era NBA Hardwood Classics Collection, available in a wide range of silhouettes. [1:27:48] including the iconic fitted 5950. [1:27:51] or adjustables like the 940A frame, [1:27:54] and 970. [1:27:56] and some great hardwood classics apparel. [1:27:59] as well, including this awesome green Celtic sweatshirt that they sent me that my daughter stole from me within a week. And now I have to get it back when she's done with college this year. Visit neweracap.com to shop now. [1:28:11] Use one-time code RINGER. [1:28:13] for 20% off [1:28:16] Your first order. [1:28:17] Check it out. [1:28:18] This episode is brought to you by Boar's Head. What if we told you the taste of deep fried turkey is now available at your local deli? Well, Boar's Head just did that. Bursting with flavor, perfectly seasoned with that indulgent taste that usually means planning your whole day around it.

[1:28:32] Presenting the Friars Turkey Breast only from Boar's Head. [1:28:36] Backyard tradition now available behind the counter. [1:28:38] Visit your local deli today. Discover the craftsmanship behind every bite. Boar's Head, committed to craft since 1905. [1:28:47] This episode is brought to you by Whole Foods Market. [1:28:49] Spring is here, so celebrate it with fresh, juicy, seasonal produce and some very tasty limited time flavors. [1:28:56] New Whole Foods Market Peach Apricot Rose Italian Soda. [1:29:01] Perfect for a picnic or brunch, as is their trending mango yuzu chantilly cake. [1:29:07] But if you're on the go, new 365 strawberry pretzels make a great sweet snack. That sounds delicious. Get savings with yellow sales signs store-wide and everyday low prices on 365 brand items. [1:29:21] Enjoy the fresh flavors of spring. Save at Whole Foods Market. [1:29:26] - All right, my friend Nick Khan is here, mid-level boxing promoter, also works for WWE. When did you become an upper-class boxing promoter? - Mid-level boxing executive. [1:29:36] Dana White is the promoter, as you know. It's a mid-level boxing executive. Boxing executive who also has bull riding reporting into me. I forgot about the bull riding. Now that you're a big deal, don't think mid-level wrestling, oh, he's just mid-level boxing also. [1:29:52] that. [1:29:52] We haven't had you in the studio yet. [1:29:54] You do one interview a year, although you did two this year before WrestleMania, because you also were in the Las Vegas Review Journal. Yes, sir. To press your father. My parents still lived in Las Vegas. My mother passed in 2019. All is good.

[1:30:08] So he still lives there, still subscribes to the hard copy of the review journal, and he was the one person – [1:30:15] when the article came out, who said, [1:30:17] It was a big article. Yeah, it's like, wow. On you in the review journal today. [1:30:20] Yeah, couldn't believe it. My dad does the same with The Globe. [1:30:24] Hey, you were in the media notes in the globe today. Do you want me to save it? Like, no, I'm good. Yeah, save and put it in that plastic sheet. Put it in your scrapbook. By the way, just in terms of the studio... [1:30:35] Last year, your microphone was... [1:30:37] It was like circumference 42 inches. I know. We're taking it all seriously. We've had a very good last year. Our stuff looks good. We look like discount TV shows now. [1:30:47] It's on Netflix from 4K HD. That's it. It's all good. I've watched it. Life seems to be pretty good. Seems all right. So you're in the bad, bad club now. So welcome aboard on that. The old man club, the bad, bad club. Ridiculous. Yeah. So I'm going to try to sit. [1:31:00] I told you my theory though. It's, it's, [1:31:03] 95% stress. There could be a traumatic, like you get in a car accident, or you're on a roller coaster on something. Sure, of course. [1:31:12] But for the most part, it's usually sitting habits and stress, which is what I tell everybody. But here's the only thing, though. [1:31:17] So you and I have known each other for almost 20 years now. Yeah. I've never seen you externally stressed. [1:31:23] Now, I don't know when kids are in a down, you know, family and the stuff. [1:31:27] But you've never called me with some version of, I'm so stressed. I just think it's part of your life. I think whatever stress is- I think you get used to stress, but you have way more stress now because you're in charge of bull riding and WWE and you're a mid-level boxing executive. So this is the most stress you've had. Listen, it's an easy life compared to jobs you and I may have had growing up. That's true. All right. I have to tell you my decision. So I went to public school in Las Vegas. Yeah. Bonanza High School. You're like,

[1:31:54] I've never heard of that school. It's just a public high school. It's called Bonanza High School? Yeah. All the old Vegas high schools were all Western themed. Rancho High School, Chaparral High School, Western High School, Bonanza High School. Okay. So that's just El Dorado High School. So that's what they all were. I was like, should I go to college? Should I not go to college? There was, you remember when you and I were younger, you'd look for a job in the classified ads? Yeah. It said, you know, now hiring in 1992, I believe the minimum wage was, [1:32:22] was $4.25 in Las Vegas. [1:32:27] $15 an hour. [1:32:29] Come work at the Marina Hotel while we transform it into the MGM. [1:32:34] It's no problem. I went down there. [1:32:37] It was a kind of a construction job. [1:32:39] They said, hey, you signed up. Okay. I said, what do I need to do? They're like, you see that huge pile of rocks? I said, yeah. [1:32:44] Like you and the other guys need to move that pile. [1:32:46] like a mile away. [1:32:48] And I was like, nah. [1:32:50] left and enrolled at UNLV. [1:32:53] I was like... [1:32:54] I was a busboy in high school and all this stuff. That was all fine. The movie, the rock thing. I'm like, this is too much for me. [1:33:01] I have a similar experience. My buddy Jim Grady and I, we went and worked at some tent company. [1:33:07] the beginning of the summer, one summer, and I was one day and out. [1:33:10] I was driving home. I'm like, I am not going back. That's a one. I'm not doing that again. I had a job in high school with a busboy at the old Gold Coast Hotel in Las Vegas, which is an off-strip casino. [1:33:23] first day. It's like at that time when we were younger,

[1:33:26] the manager's role is kind of assholes. Yeah. Right. [1:33:30] Kid, you're two minutes late. It's going to be a big reflection on your future. And I was like, all right, I'll just quit. How does that sound? How does that sound? Just quit. You can have someone else bust your table. So you have many stories like that. I don't remember if we talked about this on the pod, but I don't even remember how you became... [1:33:46] an agent. Did you do the mailroom thing or did you back into it another way? I was a lawyer for six or seven years. That's what it was. That Freddie Roach, Manny Pacquiao story. I remember that. I just had amnesia. [1:33:57] Yeah, because of Freddie and Manny started going to a lot of the boxing matches. [1:34:02] met Jim Lampley, met Max Kellerman. Yeah. Who's in business with you now. Yeah. Um, [1:34:08] And started representing those Joe Tessitore met those boxing announcers, started representing them as a lawyer and then went to become an agent in the sports media space. Those are usually the best agents that didn't start because they wanted to be an agent. [1:34:23] Yeah, I have this thing also. And by the way, it would apply to Ben and to my children, Sonny and Natalie. When I was an agent, if there were young people assistants who I liked, I don't say, you know, where are you from? [1:34:35] Anyone who answered, I'm from LA, I'd be like, yeah, but where? And it was Reseda. [1:34:39] Sherman Oaks, you know, Huntington. It was never... [1:34:43] Hancock Park, Brentwood. It's just different. [1:34:47] Like, you know, perhaps your son goes to run a hedge fund or run a team or something like that. But most of the agents come from a little more working class. Yeah, it's true. The good agents, at least. I have a bunch of, normally I don't have the iPad with questions, but I wanted to make sure I didn't miss anything. I see you had your Ali sweatshirt. I wore the Ali sweatshirt for you to get the boxing. All the good Tasha unboxing books. We'll start with the wrestling. I want to move into the whole armada that you guys have created with the combat sports.

[1:35:16] Basically, but the wrestling, WrestleMania 42. Yes, sir. [1:35:19] Just seeing the 42 makes me feel super old. [1:35:23] It's just kind of like... [1:35:25] Fuck 42. Like I remember... [1:35:28] every aspect of that week leading up to the first one. And now we're at 42. It's kind of jarring. I like it. [1:35:34] I compare it to WrestleMania 1. [1:35:36] which I watched from the LA sports arena on closed circuit. We were in Los Angeles. [1:35:42] that weekend. [1:35:44] But I also compare it, like people talk WrestleMania 18, and I'm like, wait a second, that's now... [1:35:48] 20 years. [1:35:50] Four years ago? [1:35:51] Right. Right. It's those things when you read. Which one was 18? 18 was Hulk and Rock. Yeah. [1:35:57] But it's those things you read and like, [1:35:59] Now, if you look at... [1:36:01] 2002, uh, [1:36:03] That would be like 1985 talking about 1962 or whatever the math was. [1:36:09] And that makes me feel like, man, these, the years are flying by. The thing I really hate right now, Instagram just knows how to, [1:36:16] Bring my confidence down. They do these things now where they show somebody. I don't know if it's AI or how they do it, but it's like an actress or an actor from the 90s. [1:36:26] And it's them now, and then it's like, here's, you might remember me, and then it goes backwards, a montage of when they were young, and then it goes back to them looking like us now. And I always get really depressed. I just got, so my Instagram last night, it was Andrew McCarthy. [1:36:40] It was like one of those where it went backwards and forwards. Yeah. [1:36:43] I don't like this. I don't want those anymore. Correct. All right. Why Vegas for the second year in a row for WrestleMania? So number one, we had a great experience last year, the Las Vegas Convention and Visitors Authority led by a guy named Steve Hill, who's a terrific executive.

[1:36:58] I think I first noticed when the Super Bowl was there a couple of years ago. [1:37:01] it was probably the most seamless Super Bowl I had seen. Yeah. I think a lot of people were surprised by that. Having lived there for most of my, you know, [1:37:11] pre-adult life, it didn't surprise me at all because there's no city that can handle that quantity of people better than Las Vegas can. So we set up WrestleMania last year. It was quite successful. We decided to go back to back. Fingers crossed. Let's see. It's kind of built for it. It's built for the everyday people. It's built for what you guys have to do with flying executives and celebrities in and out. It's easy. A million hotels. There's other stuff going. You can turn it into a get in and out same day or [1:37:41] And look, even if you look at the media business, the current media business now, [1:37:45] Yeah. The easy questions to answer. Where's Disney primarily located? [1:37:49] Yeah. Where's Netflix primarily located? [1:37:52] Where's the ringer? [1:37:53] primarily located. [1:37:55] LA. You know, I think it was New York and I get for news. It's still considered New York. [1:38:00] where's David Ellis? It's tough because of the giant stadium piece. It's tough. Yeah, it's hard to get to. It's tough. I think LA works now with SoFi, I think would be okay. I'm trying to think of some other ones. Yeah, we did SoFi in 2022. It worked out phenomenally well. Yeah. I think there's three things... [1:38:16] The West Coast. [1:38:17] Undisputably destroys the East Coast then. For WrestleMania? No, just in general. Okay. One of them semi-related to WrestleMania. [1:38:25] The start time and end time of sporting events. [1:38:27] destroys the East Coast.

[1:38:29] Mexican food. [1:38:30] and sushi. [1:38:33] food, sushi, trying to think what else. I would throw weather in. Weather. Forgiven. Forgiven. [1:38:39] The sun's 75% of the year. My daughter FaceTimed me today. She was walking around wearing a T-shirt and shorts in Boston. [1:38:46] It was like 70, no, 78. [1:38:48] It's like, dad, 78. I'm like, cool. Welcome to the last couple of days of my life here. How about 78 here? You put the air conditioning on. Hot. [1:38:57] So what are the big challenges now? You have this WrestleMania coming up where you're coming off – [1:39:03] 24 was awesome. [1:39:05] right? That's like a couple years after COVID, [1:39:09] from Cody Rosen, [1:39:11] just one of those great signature WWE years. And then last year was the senior year, which I thought worked great. Thank you. Now you're in 26. It's really tough in wrestling because everybody there wants to say you're red hot again, or you're not as hot as you were last year. [1:39:26] And it's just one of those two extremes. [1:39:28] And it feels like, [1:39:29] the business right now is in the, [1:39:31] Yeah, it's not like it was last year. And that's kind of what happens. The ratings are a little bit down. The attendance is a little bit down. And then people just latch on. So how much of it is real and how much of it are you just not concerned about? So here's the good thing. [1:39:45] a year ago, so right after WrestleMania last year. [1:39:48] Triple H, who you know, and I got together and we said, okay, let's take a look at the future. Yeah. Let's look at our top male superstars. Cena was obviously his retirement year. [1:39:59] We have, and you tell me if you categorize these as our top men, Roman, Roman,

[1:40:03] in some order, Roman, Roman, definitely Cody. [1:40:06] Punk. [1:40:07] Seth. [1:40:09] Rock. [1:40:10] So if you look at their ages, it's 40. I would throw McIntyre in there too. [1:40:15] Yeah, put your room there. Yeah. [1:40:16] And he adds to the narrative. Okay, they're all 40 years or older. Right. So we said, all right, we got to make sure we're preparing for the future here. [1:40:25] We went down to our performance center to see Shawn Michaels and Matt Bloom, who run that on a day-to-day basis and run NXT with us. And we said, okay, let's take a look at the talent here. How come DX, for example, when it was first starting to pop, Triple H, I think, was like 26? Yeah. Why is it taking longer? [1:40:45] And Sean said, there's one thing we could really use the company's help on. [1:40:49] We need to be able to tour NXT because doing it from the studio every week, you don't get the authentic fan response that young wrestlers need to know if their work is working or not. Yeah. You know, it's... [1:41:04] Because it's a different region that's going to respond differently. Correct. It's different. It's sort of like Randy Orton shows up in St. Louis. He's getting all the cheers in the world. He shows up in a different city. He doesn't. You need to know how to react to that. He said, we need to be able to take NXT on the road. [1:41:19] Great, no problem. Give us a week. We came back to Sean. Let's take it on the road starting in a month or whatever it was. [1:41:25] And then you saw the quick acceleration of Obafemi. [1:41:28] Yep. Trick Williams. [1:41:31] Javon Evans. [1:41:32] soon to be others coming up from NXT. And one of the matches I keep hearing people talk about is going to be the opening match.

[1:41:39] Match Sunday. [1:41:42] which is all the Femi Brock Lesnar. [1:41:44] Right. [1:41:45] Right. So over many ESPN, right? That's main ESPN. Yeah. So first night of ESPN, uh, pardon me, first night of WrestleMania, uh, [1:41:52] The first hour is on ESPN 2.0. [1:41:55] and ESPN Unlimited. [1:41:56] Second night, Sunday night, first hours on ESPN and ESPN Unlimited. So Sunday night we open with Oba versus Brock. [1:42:04] It's a match when Paul and I sat together with a number of other folks said, this seems to have a bit of a hot hand here. Yeah. Let's start big. New versus old. A lot of good stuff. A lot of good angles. And I think Brock's work has been phenomenal. Oba's work has been phenomenal. If you caught the go-home show of Raw by any chance... [1:42:23] Oba's promo with Paul Heyman was phenomenal. So fingers crossed, right? But we think that's all working. So if we're a publicly traded company, part of a publicly traded company, the results are the results. Right. Fingers crossed. But it's interesting what you're, [1:42:38] you're hitting because that's always been whenever there's been a wrestling renaissance, [1:42:42] It's usually coming from a young group of people that maybe you weren't expecting or you didn't think were ready yet. [1:42:48] When it happened with Triple H and those guys in 96, 97, it happened because WCW... [1:42:53] was building like an all-star team of older guys. And by necessity, WWE had to like, [1:43:00] pass the torch to young people and hope they are ready. Right? Think about this. You remember... [1:43:04] when they brought, WWE brought Sergeant Slaughter back in the late 90s, who was sort of like a

[1:43:11] a GM type personality and Triple H, [1:43:15] was really going from Hunter Hearst Helmsley to Triple H. It was with Sean, early DX, and they put on the... [1:43:21] the sort of like construction masks, if you will, that had the windshield wipers because they would say Sarge would spit in their face when he would talk. And all of a sudden you saw DX pop and then you saw stunning Steve Austin come over as the ringmaster. Right. [1:43:35] And I remember seeing him and being like, is that stunning Steve Austin? Now he's the ringmaster. Like, I don't know if this is going to work. And then boom. [1:43:41] it [1:43:42] Jake Roberts, King of the Ring. The Shield, 15 years later, was another one, right? Whatever, 15, 16 years later. Think about how quick those guys, they had it. They had it, you knew it immediately. Immediately. [1:43:53] Immediately. You and I... [1:43:55] Well, that's a weird, yeah, we talked about it early. [1:43:58] Yeah, but that's one of those things where... [1:44:00] Most of the times you kind of have to have it right away. [1:44:03] I think very rarely are there the late bloomer guys who are like, wow. [1:44:08] This guy, this is happening now? LA Knight was kind of like that. He was older when... [1:44:13] it happened for, but the most part, you kind of know early. It's like basketball. Yeah, I think even in broadcasting, even when [1:44:21] Didn't you do a commercial early on? Was it with Kevin, Kevin, Kenny main pool side. [1:44:26] Oh, I did Main Street with Kenny Mayne. But it was like, oh, who is that? Yeah. [1:44:31] Like you were saying things that other people weren't saying. Yeah. And it was like, well, who's that? And then you'd start reading your columns. And for me, it was like referencing the karate kid, like in a sports column. Like I haven't seen that before. But karate kid is, you know, you're the one who first touted it. It's one of the handful of perfect movies.

[1:44:49] It doesn't mean I like to think so. [1:44:51] Tell me a flaw in that movie. [1:44:53] I think it doesn't get enough credit for being a great 80s movie. [1:44:56] great sports movie and a great 80s movie and really well done [1:45:00] Avelson doesn't get enough credit. [1:45:02] maybe because Rocky is not perceived the way that it should be perceived. Oh, no, it's because of Karate Kid 3. I think that's what killed that. That can do it. [1:45:10] He should have just taken his name off it and pretended he was like... John X. John Jacobs. Yeah, the guy who did... [1:45:17] what was the, uh, Eddie Furlong, um, [1:45:21] American History X. The director changed his name. Oh, yeah. He took his name off. Yeah. Yeah. Because Ed Norton was like in the director's thing. Avilson should have done that with three. [1:45:30] You're a big Rocky guy. [1:45:32] Love. [1:45:34] What are your... [1:45:35] 1, 2, 3, 4 rankings? [1:45:37] So second half of two, [1:45:40] is the best Rocky of all time. [1:45:43] But the first half or two... [1:45:45] First half, first half. [1:45:46] Three-fourths. I think on Rewatchables, one of your guys said, [1:45:51] The moment she says when. Yeah, that's it. Until the end. It's. [1:45:55] It's the best 30 minutes probably of all time. Phenomenal. Every scene, the music, the score in that. We know how great the score is, but somehow it's not remembered the way it should be. We talked about that on the pod about people cheering in the theater, which is the only time I've ever really seen that for real. [1:46:10] People cheering like it was... [1:46:12] They were at WrestleMania or something. How about also when you have... [1:46:16] a number of phenomenal books here that then later became movies. Yeah. How about going to the movies and it was sold out?

[1:46:24] Right. You'd go and you'd be like, OK, we want to go see Rocky to sold out. [1:46:28] When's the next show? You know, 1130 p.m. Okay, well, what else? [1:46:32] What else are you showing here? And you'd go see an alternative movie. [1:46:35] That's starting to come back with the IMAX. [1:46:38] But you can still see, like, LA is probably an anomaly because they have so many theaters here, but... [1:46:44] You see, if the IMAX is sold out, you kind of have to do the laser, I guess. Totally. [1:46:50] But I do feel like the movies are a little bit back. Not like it was when we were growing up. But at least you know before you go. [1:46:58] when we would go and you'd walk up and it's like Rocky II sold out, you'd be like, oh my God. At least you can buy in advance and [1:47:05] You just did the Nick Khan thing where you [1:47:08] You moved away from my original question. What do you mean? We talked to Oba, Brock. [1:47:12] So the ebb and flow of the business, it's a little bit of a down right now, but it's not too far down. [1:47:20] But it's not as high as it was two years ago. [1:47:23] So you think the key is... [1:47:25] build around the young guys. Because one of the criticisms is always that you don't do as many house shows now. [1:47:30] Guys aren't on the road as much. There's real reasons for that. It's, it's, [1:47:34] because the way the business used to be, these guys would get run into the ground in five years. - Think about every wrestling documentary you've ever seen. [1:47:44] Usually about wrestlers in the 80s started off with I was on the road 300 days a year. [1:47:48] Right. Right. It's no way. And then you saw the results of that. Forget family life.

[1:47:54] but you saw what people would do to make sure that their bodies could perform at that level. Yeah. That's like me right now. [1:48:01] The things I have to do to get, you know, doing four podcasts a week. I really have to. Also, listen. People don't see what I'm doing. I understand. It's very hard. And by the way, because of our age, which we started off with, I'm sure you have a stretch man now. Yeah, yeah. Which is always an awkward thing. [1:48:15] like, [1:48:16] connection to me. [1:48:18] some man stretching my leg. I don't know. [1:48:20] I don't have my own personal man stretcher, but I do find myself doing things I never thought I would have done in the past. [1:48:26] Like watching TV, but making sure I'm sitting on the floor just stretching out my tendons, just doing this thing. I talked to a mutual friend of ours, Pete Bavacqua, who's the AD at Notre Dame. [1:48:39] And just a random conversation a couple months ago, he's like, hey, I just worked out. He was on the road. And I'm like, how long did you stretch? And he's like, dude, I was the only guy in the gym. It was all young people stretching out, this and that. I'm like, they're all looking at me saying... [1:48:53] There's the old man. [1:48:54] I haven't talked to him in a while. He was the greatest guy as a high school kid. He was younger than us, but we all loved him. [1:49:02] And I totally wasn't surprised that he's... [1:49:05] Super successful. Love that guy. He had great people skills when he was like 15. Totally. Yeah. Love that guy. Honest broker. [1:49:13] And in his dream job, which I always applaud people for. Do you think as you get- By the way, how rich are you now? We haven't talked yet. I'm not the one that sells stock all the time. Like I always see that. Sold more stuff. How did we start this? A mid-level wrestling boxing executive with bull riding reporting incident. Yeah, I saved the bull riding combo for the end. Listen- I don't know if people are going to stay for that. Part of the reason I came here today is to try to take out a personal loan from you. Not that much money for you.

[1:49:43] million dollars. That's fine. It's no big deal. I was never asked to invest. [1:49:47] It's a totally fair company when you buy some stock. I actually, I was asked to invest... [1:49:53] I don't know, when did Ari do the whole UFC thing? It was like 10... [1:49:58] Why didn't you do that? You didn't believe that. [1:50:00] I didn't. [1:50:02] I actually, I could have... [1:50:03] Because Baby Doll was in there, and they asked Jimmy. So I actually looked at it. I really studied it. [1:50:11] And it's hilarious why I didn't invest, because I should have. And I really believed in UFC, and I thought I was going to keep getting bigger. [1:50:18] And the reason I didn't invest was I came to the conclusion that, [1:50:22] It was too dependent on meteorites deals. [1:50:25] And if they didn't get the media rights deals the way they thought they were going to get the media rights deals, it wouldn't have been worth anything. So I was like, I'm not doing it. I'm out. How'd that work out? [1:50:33] Terribly. It was a complete misread. It was actually like the conclusion I landed on was the exact opposite of what happened. They were completely right. Media right deals were exploding. All of these great things were about to happen. And I was like, I don't know. I don't see it. I don't see the case. By the way, I passed on investing in Sweet Greens. [1:50:52] I'm like, that's never going to work. [1:50:54] There's plenty of that on this end. On the UFC side, if you think about it, it's part of the opportunity we see in boxing. [1:51:00] Yeah. If let's go back to 1984 for a moment. [1:51:04] And you would know it better than I would, but this is off the top of my head. If I said to you, who are the most famous athletes in the country? So Jordan's still not pro. [1:51:12] Bird, Magic, Joe Montana, let's say, and then a bunch of individual sports stars. Yeah. McEnroe, Nicholas, Mary Lou Retton, Carl Lewis, Sugar Ray Leonard, Boom Boom Mancini,

[1:51:24] Evel Knievel. Chris Everett. Chris Everett, right? [1:51:27] And then you fast forward a mere 10 years to 1994, and then you're going to be a little [1:51:31] And the leagues have become the leagues. [1:51:34] The NBA is... [1:51:36] Going crazy. The NFL is going crazy. [1:51:39] the individual sports outside of WWE, [1:51:42] and subsequently outside of UFC, [1:51:45] They all stayed the same. So the question, we know this, that people would always ask is, who's the heavyweight champion of the world? [1:51:52] You would know it. I would know it now in Usyk. Most people don't know it. [1:51:56] Who's the fastest man on the planet? The best fuck it up. [1:51:58] The sanctioning bodies are ridiculous. The belts messed it up. I knew Marvin Hagler as the middleweight champion. I didn't know him as the WBC interim middleweight champion in recess. [1:52:08] It's nonsense. [1:52:10] It's absurd. [1:52:10] Max and I, when Max was here, we were talking about when there was that crazy super middleweight run. [1:52:16] when we had all those super middleweights at the same time, and I think it was maybe Showtime, had them all fighting each other. And that was one of the last times I felt like, oh, there's real structure to this. The Super Six. Yeah. It was called in the best. Which seems like what everybody's trying to do now with boxing. And I think from... [1:52:33] A boxing standpoint, [1:52:35] I have more choices... [1:52:37] month to month than I think I've ever had before. Look, Turkey I'll Shake is certainly trying to do that and has certainly done it. [1:52:44] and put his money up and made fights that no one was going to make. So if you look at what the promoters were doing on their own, the boxing promoters, it was, well, let's just have our guy fight another one of our guys. And then finally...

[1:52:58] You'd get... [1:52:59] Errol Spence, who I give all the credit in the world to, didn't have to give Terrence Crawford the opportunity to, [1:53:05] This was pre-Turkey being involved in boxing. [1:53:08] knew that the fans wanted it. [1:53:10] Gave him the opportunity. But that's why we don't get that. Correct. Because people point to Errol Spence and that's what... [1:53:17] That's the worst case scenario. You get absolutely obliterated by Bud. [1:53:22] I understand. And then you don't have the same drawing power anymore. It's no different. And this is not directed at you. And I know it's a young Patriots team, but the Patriots deserve to be in the Super Bowl. [1:53:32] They got beat handily. So what? [1:53:35] I'm at the point with it now where I wish we had lost in the AFC title game and never made the Super Bowl. You're hurt by the Super Bowl. Well, I just think it's setting off a chain of events. Now my coach is in a scandal. I have that going. I just feel like it's going to be the year from hell. I'm already resigned to it. Not jinxing anything. You have the right QB. [1:53:53] Have the right QB. Hopefully he's healthy. Not drinking. [1:53:56] The boxing thing, though, [1:53:58] I feel like there's more awareness there. [1:54:01] But the thing is, I might only feel that way because I have a lot of people in my life who like boxing. [1:54:08] So we're like, The Zone had a fight. It had a card in England last week, last Saturday. It was early. The Tyson Fury. Netflix, yeah. [1:54:16] or Netflix. [1:54:18] Sorry, Netflix. Sorry, employer of the ringer. I'm going to leave that in. Sorry. Yeah, I'm not going to edit that out. It's more of my old age. Netflix had it. James Spitzer, Bella, I don't know if you've heard of these people. The Zone was two weeks before. Netflix was last week, and it was starting like 11 o'clock PT in November.

[1:54:38] But it just feels like every week there's something. [1:54:41] Look, think about [1:54:43] things that [1:54:44] Turkey's getting right and separately Netflix is getting right. One of them is a selection of dates. So it used to be, if you remember... [1:54:51] like, uh, [1:54:52] Bo Holyfield, the fan man fight was in November. Yeah. Remember when the family came in and they had to put like blankets and everything around and Holyfield to stay warm outdoor venue, Caesar's palace, Vegas in November, very cold at night, you know, for West coast, certainly very cold. Like, [1:55:10] Why are you going so heavy during college football season? [1:55:13] It's insane. And by the way, it's not just college football season. And that was, you know, November. But if you just look at the fall, okay, [1:55:19] What are the four most popular sports in the United States if you bifurcate pro and college? Okay, NFL, college football, NBA, college hoops. [1:55:28] MLB having a bit of a renaissance. [1:55:30] Right now, two-strong World Series. So you're going with postseason baseball with a stacked Dodgers team. [1:55:37] Which, you know, when you get the big teams in it, it tends to matter, as you know. Yeah, October's a no-fly zone now for this stuff. Why would you go so? Boxing did it consistently. You talked about this the last time you were on. [1:55:47] And I thought it was really smart. [1:55:50] how, TKO just in general, like UFC, just like [1:55:54] hey, let's rethink how we're approaching the calendar. [1:55:57] Why is WrestleMania this weekend? [1:55:59] Why can't UFC take advantage of this two-week window here in August where nothing's happening? [1:56:04] Why can't we put a boxing card here? [1:56:06] It feels like the sports card...

[1:56:10] My dance card weekend to weekend is more filled than it used to be. [1:56:14] Instead of just the weekends where there's too much stuff and you're like, all right, I guess I'm going to watch this instead of this. Totally. So a couple of examples of this. Yeah. When... [1:56:23] Dana. [1:56:25] Ari, Shapiro and company, [1:56:28] made. [1:56:29] Mayweather McGregor. Yeah. [1:56:31] Triple G Canelo had already been announced for middle of September of that year for Mexican Independence Day weekend. Yeah. And I remember speaking to Dana. I was not working with them at the time speaking to him and he said, we're going to go the last week of August. [1:56:46] Pre-Labor Day. [1:56:47] And I said, hot in Vegas. He said, yeah. [1:56:51] And? [1:56:52] He said, you know the Vegas routine. Most people are going to come in. They're going to go to the pool. They're inside or at the pool or in air conditioning. You got it. And that fight [1:57:00] I think is the highest grossing pay-per-view of all time or, [1:57:03] second highest grossing gate after Mayweather Pacquiao. And I was like, that's brilliant. When we all started together at WWE, which is now almost six years ago, [1:57:13] Coming out of COVID. [1:57:15] we looked at our [1:57:16] premium live events calendar. And we had one. I don't remember the month. You would probably remember the month. This is in 2021. [1:57:24] And I asked the founder of the company, I said, why are we going up against Tom Brady's return with the Tampa Bay Buccaneers at New England? [1:57:33] And he was like, I don't know. Like, what should we do? I said, let's move to Saturday night. [1:57:38] Right. Right. I'd rather go up against Alabama LSU and it's prime.

[1:57:42] then Tom Brady's return is, [1:57:44] to New England with the Tampa Bay Buccaneers. Great, do it. [1:57:47] It was very easy to sort of make those changes, which we did. So even on WrestleMania, April 18th and 19th, two years ago in Philly, it was Final Four weekend. That was the last deal we inherited. [1:57:59] Hmm. Why would you look at the final four this year? You had three, in my opinion, hot teams. [1:58:05] Illinois, too. So maybe four hot teams. But you had Hurley... [1:58:08] You had... [1:58:11] you [1:58:12] Boop booby thump. [1:58:13] Michigan, Arizona, Hurley, and Illinois. [1:58:17] Right. [1:58:18] Why would we want to go up against that? I've noticed a great weekend that everybody didn't realize was a great weekend. [1:58:25] when they went to two weeks between AFC, NFC, title games in the Super Bowl. So much better. [1:58:31] there was that weekend between the two. That was basically a wide open weekend. You're just going against like basketball. Now called Royal Rumble weekend. Exactly. Yes. But Royal Rumble was not always that weekend. No. [1:58:41] Royal Rumble, [1:58:43] would go. [1:58:44] the Sunday of the two conference championships. [1:58:49] And then we moved it to the Saturday because it's a wide open night. Yeah. And then you quickly realize, well, you can't book an NFL stadium. [1:58:55] Because every NFL team is hopeful that their team is in one of those two games. So, I don't know, Pro Bowl at the time was on it like, [1:59:04] noon Eastern or Sunday. It's a daytime event. So 90% of the country is still cold. People are used to watching sports on Sunday. People are used to... It's like the first day of the weekend since late August. Correct. So why not

[1:59:19] Do it then. [1:59:20] which we did and ratings skyrocketed. And then summer, some of the opportunities are... [1:59:25] You got to look and make sure there's not a men's or women's World Cup to make sure there's not an Olympics. [1:59:31] If there is, you got to avoid it. You don't want to go against the Olympics for any reason. [1:59:35] So think about this first weekend of May. [1:59:38] Always was a big boxing weekend. [1:59:41] Oscar De La Hoya would fight on Cinco de Mayo weekend. Right. That's a Mexican-Latino. It's kind of a made-up beer holiday, if you will, but it's a good time to go to Vegas. Weather's perfect. You know, this and that. [1:59:51] It's also Kentucky Derby Saturday. Yeah. So you have men and women sitting around a television, especially with the proliferation. Fios and basketball and hockey. [2:00:00] The playoffs, usually like huge game sixes, game sevens for both sports. [2:00:04] Huge. [2:00:06] Kentucky Derby is a three-minute sporting event. Right. [2:00:09] So if men and women are together, okay, what do we want to do? We want to watch the NBA game. If our team's not in it, there's a, oh, there's a big fight on TV. Great. Let's order it. [2:00:16] but, [2:00:17] Why not do that with the Preakness, which even if you read, I'm sure you did the news yesterday that, hey, the Preakness may move a week later. So instead of being two weeks after the Kentucky Derby, three weeks. Why would you not have done that years ago? Give the horses more of a chance to recover, create more of an opportunity. One horse wins both races. [2:00:35] Then you have a triple crown contender at the Belmont. Why would you not have done that? [2:00:39] Horse racing, much like boxing, [2:00:42] fragmented, this track owner does this, this one doesn't like that. [2:00:46] There's no unification to it. So with Zufa boxing,

[2:00:49] If we can replicate this, [2:00:52] the version of a league, if you will. Yeah. NBA, NHL, NFL, UFC, UFC, [2:00:58] WWE, we're the best fight the best. There's consistency of programming and you know, no one's going to duck anyone. Maybe we have a chance. [2:01:05] You stole Connor Ben. [2:01:07] What do you mean by stall? Well, you take... [2:01:10] Grab them. [2:01:11] brought them to your team. [2:01:12] It had to be done. One fight deal. [2:01:15] I thought he looked good on Saturday night. There were some unintentional questions. Progress brought it. But that's part of the thing also. Would he have like four injuries? [2:01:23] He basically admitted after, yeah, I was really hurt, but I felt like I had to fight anyway. [2:01:28] He didn't, he didn't have to fight, but yes, he's game. And look, it's, [2:01:33] Part of the ZUFA legislation with the Muhammad Ali Enhancement Act is that insurance for fighters will kick in when training camp starts. [2:01:41] Because as it's set up now, fighters only have fight night insurance. So if they get hurt seven weeks before... [2:01:48] A lot of them will just go through Camp Hurt because they can't, [2:01:51] necessarily afford to go to the doctor and pay for it and all of that. Let's get training insurance, small things like that. The minimums that someone can make per round, [2:01:59] to institute those so people aren't fighting for, you know, here's 40 bucks. It's kind of like Rocky Balboa, Spider Rico. Yeah. Okay. It's $48. Spider took some liberties in that fight. Took some liberties. Yeah. And then talk shit to him. Yeah. Yeah. [2:02:13] Didn't say sorry, man. [2:02:14] Spider Rico. So you're happy with how the boxing's going? I'm happy with how we started it. You know, [2:02:19] Give it a couple of years. Let's see where we are. But I'm not feuding with Eddie Hearn already. We're not, we're not feuding with anybody. You were lobbing some grenades at him. He's lobbing grenades back. This is great. Listen, I don't know what the guy's talking about from Tony Khan to Eddie Hearn. I like it. By the way, there's similarities between the two. What are the similarities? They both work for their dads, which, you know, by the way,

[2:02:43] I'm going to give Ben Simmons some strong advice here. [2:02:46] Yeah. Whatever he decides to do with his life. [2:02:48] Do not try to be a podcaster. [2:02:51] Ben Simmons does not want to work for me. That will not happen. Why? Why? He wants to forge his own way. Of course. Yeah. That's the way it should be. Yeah. Right. You do everything you can as his father to set him up in the world. By the way. [2:03:03] He should use your relationships. He should do whatever he can. It's a bit of a dated reference. Frank Sinatra Jr., [2:03:10] Should have done anything other than be a crooner. That was the worst case scenario. Correct. He should have said, hey, dad, I want to be a music manager. Can you introduce me to people? Sure. I want to book venues. And sure. This is that. Ben Simmons should not be a podcaster, nor will he be. I just read something. I think it was, I want to say it was Bill Gates, but it was somebody like that who had their kids and, [2:03:29] when they turned 21 and, or they're going to, they're in that range and he met them. [2:03:35] at dinner and dinner. [2:03:36] And he was like, I'm just here to tell you. [2:03:39] You're not going to inherit any of my money. [2:03:41] I'm going to leave each of you $10 million that want you to forge your own way. [2:03:45] And that's it. You're not getting anything else. [2:03:48] I get it. But by the way, I read in, and you don't have to worry about that. Cause Sonny's going to be like president. Listen, Sonny's already like a freaking mafia head. Like you can see him at these games. He's shaking. People are coming up to him. It's like watching Michael Corleone and Godfather two. I listen. I appreciate the Michael reference, especially since we named him Sonny in, uh, in two, especially, um, [2:04:08] He's definitely not going to come work for me, nor will our daughter, Natalie. [2:04:13] Yeah, they're going to. And of course, I will try to help them get into good. I guess he's running the boxing. Who knows if he's passionate about it and he earns his way in. And by the way, there hasn't been a weekend where I've traveled for wrestling or boxing where he has not traveled with me. Yeah. And you remember you and I were at WrestleMania. How was he now? He's 10. Yeah. Yeah.

[2:04:36] WrestleMania 2016, we were both at AT&T Stadium for WrestleMania 2016. [2:04:41] And you sent me a video of, so Ben's 18 now? [2:04:45] He had been doing all the moves. She was eight. It's on my Instagram. That's like peak slamming pillows, wanting to spear you, I'm sure. [2:04:54] You know, this and that. I told you this. Eight to 10 is the peak little boy age. It's amazing. Eight, nine, 10, home run. [2:05:01] It's amazing. They're the best. Comes with me on the weekend. Can go in any meeting that I'm in. There's one rule. [2:05:07] You can't talk. [2:05:09] Because to me, he hasn't earned his right to voice his opinion. [2:05:14] So he takes notes for me. That's good. He listens. [2:05:17] It absorbs it. [2:05:19] Correct. [2:05:20] Listen, absorb it. [2:05:21] Be in the room that your father has earned his way into. But don't think like you're here... [2:05:27] Because of you. [2:05:29] And I found in combat sports, [2:05:31] When you have kids, kids, kids, kids. [2:05:33] whose parents are somehow associated with it, [2:05:36] in it I haven't seen it work. [2:05:38] It might work one day. I haven't seen it work. Well, you... [2:05:42] I mean, you inherited a company that had... [2:05:45] Vince [2:05:46] There's two kids working, but the daughter, Stephanie, was really good. Wired along like Vince. Phenomenal. The son really wanted to run the business on his own, and that was some of what we did the documentary about. [2:05:59] this really interesting dynamic of father-son. Didn't you go to the same high school as him? [2:06:04] We lived in the same city when I was in high school, but we didn't go to the same high school. Got it. Okay, got it.

[2:06:11] This episode is brought to you by Fox One. Watch all 104 matches of the FIFA World Cup live in 4K for just $19.99 a month with three days free. Build your own multi-view, choose up to three streams, and follow player spotlights. Stay on top of every moment with live stats, highlights, and instant replays. The FIFA World Cup, streaming live on Fox One. Offers a subject to change. See fox.com for complete terms and conditions. [2:06:40] Study and play. Come together on a Windows 11 PC. And for a limited time, college students get the best of both worlds. Get the Unreal College Deal. Everything you need to study and play with select Windows 11 PCs. Eligible students get a year of Microsoft 365 Premium and a year of Xbox Game Pass Ultimate with a custom color Xbox Wireless Controller. Learn more at windows.com slash student offer. While supplies last, ends June 30th. Terms at aka.ms slash college PC. [2:07:09] Thank you. [2:07:10] One boxing piece that developed in 2026 was obviously the big conflict in the Middle East that's still going. And a lot of the money for some of the stuff you guys were doing, other things were doing, [2:07:22] was tied up over there. You had plans to go over there. Like, what happened? Like, is this just a wait [2:07:26] Play it by ear. Like, not a fun topic, but I have to ask. Oh, yeah, of course. And by the way, just so all the listeners and viewers know, your guest house is... [2:07:34] Bigger than my real house. It's true. It's true. This room bigger than master bedroom at my house. So I've come stay here for a while. All right. You're always invited. Thank you.

[2:07:46] Yeah, look, it's a tricky situation there. Keep my... [2:07:49] I'm the child of Iranian immigrants. Yeah. And, you know, a little bit different than most Iranians in the United States in that my dad came in 1952 when he was five. [2:07:58] So in essence, I'm a little more second generation than first. So I don't have family that I've ever met who's there. But obviously monitoring the situation on the business side and on, [2:08:08] Simply the political side. Number one, we'd never send our wrestlers, our crew, anybody into an unsafe environment. But hopefully this thing clears up in the not too distant future. And I understand hope is not a strategy. [2:08:21] So it's a wait and see approach. And, you know, did it affect like all the plans you guys had for the next three to five years? It must have at least a little bit. Right. No, I think, you know, Turkey, as you know, had the. [2:08:32] Tyson Fury, co-main event, Connor Benn, [2:08:36] than with us fight on Netflix. [2:08:38] not a different carrier. [2:08:41] this past weekend from London. Yep. So that fight made, or from Tottenham. So that fight made sense. [2:08:47] at Tottenham Stadium. And, you know, we'll work around it and work through it. [2:08:51] but nothing's been affected thus far. So you're dealing with all these different [2:08:56] places now. [2:08:57] right, that for WWE, the boxing, [2:09:01] you don't deal with the UFC as much. And everyone's settled on their partners, but there's a big courting process sometimes. Sure. [2:09:07] Are people better or worse at this than they were... [2:09:11] 15, 20 years ago when you had, during the John Skipper era, now you have Netflix has

[2:09:18] fell on Gabe and [2:09:19] all those people and ESPN has Jimmy Vitaro and Burke and, [2:09:23] Paramount has all their people. What's different about the whole process than [2:09:28] the 2000s, anything? [2:09:30] Well, I think, look, I happen to be in a bit of a more senior seat than I was, you know, early 2000s. So in dealing with [2:09:38] Bella, Gabe, Brandon Riege, who lives down the street from here, by the way. That means it's a very affluent neighborhood. Brandon Riege, who, by the way, I've said this many, many times, [2:09:51] told me and Stephanie McMahon pre-COVID, I don't know that Netflix ever gets in a live, but if they do, you should line up your international media rights. [2:10:00] Because Netflix is not going to do a deal with WWE that says, hey, great news. We have WWE in three countries. [2:10:06] So at that time, we started putting the process in place where the international rights were [2:10:11] would all time out with the U.S. rights and boom, the Netflix deal a year and change ago, which has been a game changer for WWE. So they're phenomenal. You got new leadership at Disney with Josh tomorrow. [2:10:23] you know, the time was obviously right for Bob. He chose in essence, [2:10:28] Bob Iger, his timing. [2:10:30] and left quickly. - The time was right in 2020. [2:10:34] Listen, it depends on the successor. Sometimes it's hard to leave. [2:10:38] Look, I'll tell you this. If... [2:10:42] the coach of your favorite team had decided to, [2:10:46] I'm just going to be a broadcaster and,

[2:10:48] Shut it down. [2:10:49] And if the person who was the president [2:10:51] before the current president had said, I'm just going to be a one-term president. [2:10:56] I think they both be remembered far differently than they're currently remembered. [2:10:59] Yeah. [2:11:00] So it's important that you get out of it before it gets out of you. [2:11:04] And that's something we'll have to hold each other. [2:11:07] too, in like, [2:11:09] 20 years. [2:11:11] It's tough. I totally see it. It's tough. [2:11:13] Even somebody like Lorne Michaels now, he's still producing SNL. He's in his 80s. It's also like [2:11:19] When you've worked hard like you have, what are you going to do every day? [2:11:23] That's what... [2:11:24] I still love what I do and I still feel like I'm good at it. I don't know, five years from now, the question for me is how would you know if the signs were there [2:11:33] that you weren't as good? Who in your life would tell you, "Hey, you're not as good." I don't think that conversation is ever happening with anybody. [2:11:41] But I've noticed, I really thought about a lot with Stern. Stern was the first one [2:11:47] That I really felt like I had a court side seat too. No pun intended. Yeah. [2:11:51] Of just like really watching how he ran everything and then really feeling like he was starting to lose control of the narrative a little bit the last couple years he was there. And he couldn't see it. But I think it affected his legacy a little bit. [2:12:04] To me in business, there's pirates. [2:12:06] And there's... [2:12:08] Armadas. [2:12:09] Stern was a pirate. [2:12:10] Yeah. "Hey, I'm coming to Los Angeles, I'm going to kick Mark and Brian's ass," or whoever it was at the time. "I'm going to chew them out." Correct. And then city by city. "You motherfuckers." Yeah. Right. And then you think about the Stuttering John stuff at that time, way ahead of the game. Yeah. Just crushing everybody.

[2:12:26] And the things they would talk about and the character names like way ahead. [2:12:30] And then all of a sudden the pirates [2:12:32] became the Armada. [2:12:34] And to me, when that happens, you usually see a little slippage. The pirates need to stay the pirates. Wait, you're talking about Howard Stern. [2:12:42] Who are you talking about? I was talking about David Stern. Oh, I'll strike that. I love Howard Stern. He hasn't slipped at all. You tell me, is Howard Stern [2:12:51] I would say he's another one. Yeah. [2:12:55] Yeah, that's an interesting one. I mean, that's another good example. And by the way, people... [2:13:01] People who defend him may say, well, no, you know, it's a smaller... [2:13:05] universe now. I don't know. I was talking about David Stern. You were talking about Howard Stern, but the conversation, if you did a transcript, it seemed like we both understood what the other one was saying. Maybe not a good sign for either legacy. [2:13:17] Listen, if there even is a legacy, Dana White and I, at times I'll say, Hey, they're entering championship rounds. [2:13:24] he thinks fifth round UFC. Oh, right. Right now, he obviously thinks, you know, 12th round, you know, boxing as well. But even if you look at the vernacular of boxing and the fall off on it, you still hear it. This is like a heavyweight championship fight. Yeah. You know, he's taken an eight count. [2:13:40] You know, you can run, but you can't hide. [2:13:42] Then you hear the UFC come into the vernacular where everybody uses tap out. [2:13:46] I'm going to tap out. [2:13:47] this and that and other sort of lingo introduced by the UFC into the American culture became part of the zeitgeist. It's part of the zeitgeist. Boxing, we'll see if we can get it back in. But yeah, we were talking about two different strengths. Maybe same issue. Um, yeah,

[2:14:02] One thing with that, I think the difference in 2026, I really noticed this with Amazon doing the NBA this year. [2:14:09] I have no dog in this race. I don't care who wins. I just want to enjoy sports. [2:14:13] But I think with Amazon, the most interesting piece to me was that Saturday afternoon game they had. [2:14:18] and Sacramento, Denver was one a couple weeks ago, but they would have it, it'd be like one o'clock PT, right? So four o'clock ET, so late afternoon, but then overseas, right? [2:14:30] Primetime, basically. It's on like 9 o'clock. So you have this Wemby Joker game. [2:14:35] And now I'm in all these different countries with it. And if I'm the NBA, I'm like, this is fucking incredible. [2:14:42] This is so whatever this is, is where we need to go for in a garlic game. [2:14:48] Now, the flip side is all the playing, we're taping this on a Tuesday, all the playing games are on Amazon. Yep. Which is a good thing because I think they do a good job. [2:14:55] It's a bad thing because I think there's a lot of people who, [2:14:58] A, don't realize they're on Amazon, and B, [2:15:01] maybe don't have Amazon, and are going to be like, well, wait, what about, I don't want to get Amazon. So there's a little bit of that, and I want to see how that shakes out over the next couple years. By the way, analogous to that, [2:15:13] When the NFL started doing the European games, I never believed it was solely for the purpose of, oh, we want to develop a European fan base. I thought it was to develop a fourth Sunday window. So if you say... [2:15:26] on the East Coast, well, you know, 10 a.m. Eastern, that would be really early. You live in L.A., I live in L.A., 10 a.m. Pacific, you're up watching football. And if you say, well, 7 a.m.,

[2:15:35] Pacific, you know, on the West Coast, that would be far too early. If you look at the ratings and share in Hawaii and Alaska, they watch it. [2:15:43] just as much as the rest of the country watches it. So I always believed it was to create a fourth window. [2:15:48] which it seems like it's heading towards, in addition to [2:15:51] establishing international fans, which I think the NFL first mover in that space, they've done phenomenal work. That's the only one you really haven't, we could probably talk about pretty freely because you're never going to cross paths with them, right? The NFL? [2:16:03] It's just how they... Talk about anything freely. No, but I think they're fascinating because... [2:16:09] They're the only entity that sells games matches. [2:16:14] events, whatever. [2:16:15] that can basically do whatever they want and people just have to, [2:16:19] take a big gulp and then put up with it, right? I don't know what they're capable of, but this deal they're about to do, now that the Paramount merger and all that stuff has allowed them to basically blow up some of their deals, reconsider them. [2:16:33] I'm prepared for anything. Like the Friday night rule with the high school's, [2:16:38] Are they going to go after that? Are they going to add 18 games with two bye weeks and stretch the Super Bowl out and basically go into February? [2:16:47] Yeah, probably. Are they going to have an international game every week? [2:16:52] They might. [2:16:53] Are they going to just [2:16:54] Add four more teams out of nowhere. I don't know. Are they going to be on seven different platforms? Maybe. [2:17:01] Like the WNBA is on seven broadcast partners. Like to me, that means the NFL could do it. So could,

[2:17:07] Could it just basically be everybody gets a small piece of this and they're just like, [2:17:11] This is the price, man. You're either paying it or not. We don't want to hear it. It seems like that's where we're headed. Everything you laid out has or could happen with the NFL. [2:17:20] I'd also, if I was college football and you hear the conversations about, you know, executive order for NIL and this and that and second most popular sport, as we just talked about in the United States, but makes the fifth most amount of money. [2:17:31] I'd be looking at that Saturday night and saying, we know the NFL jumps on Saturdays as soon as college football starts. [2:17:38] Regular season winds down, you know, post-Heisman weekend. Oh, being worried about being exclusive on Saturday night. They did it with the college football playoff. Yeah. [2:17:47] Hey, we're going to go on Saturday to the NFL games. And the playoff, I think, went head-to-head on the college football playoff. Once they did that, that opened the door for the NFL to be like, okay, guys, I guess – [2:17:57] I guess we're battling. [2:17:59] By the way, think about this also. [2:18:01] Thank you. [2:18:02] We discussed this internally. That does not mean it was our exclusive idea. Just so we're clear. Myself, Shapiro, Dana, Ari, a number of other folks. [2:18:12] Black Friday. [2:18:14] Amazing day. [2:18:15] Black Friday is no different than Thanksgiving Day for a lot of people. Okay, some people go line up. [2:18:20] at 3 a.m. to go, you know, this and that. [2:18:23] But for the most part, people are sitting around with food and there's nothing to watch. So the NFL... [2:18:29] puts a Black Friday game on. And now there's rumors... [2:18:32] that they're going to add a second Black Friday game. Well, there's a rumor of the Wednesday before Thanksgiving game. You said we discussed internally also. And again, I'm not suggesting it was our exclusive idea. That night before Thanksgiving,

[2:18:44] There's a lot of people at home. [2:18:46] like, [2:18:46] Maybe that's a good night for boxing. [2:18:49] It's a good night for anything. Anything. There's nothing on. Netflix, I think that was a Stranger Things night for them one of those times. Somebody released a major TV show that night. Christmas Eve. [2:19:01] Yeah. [2:19:02] If Christmas Day... [2:19:04] If you have five NBA games and the NFL said, oh, we're going to go take that also, [2:19:08] and put three NFL, well, I would [2:19:10] there not be sports on Christmas Eve. So there's a lot of these nights. I think what happened was the traditional thinkers would say, oh, people are traveling. The reality is, you know, and my phone's off to the side. You have an iPad there. We can watch whatever we want, wherever we want. So yeah, when you're traveling, you're actually still the audience. Whereas I think in the 80s, it was a little different. [2:19:31] If I went to Acapulco with my family in 1988... [2:19:36] If the hotel didn't have the channel, that was it. By the way, when Ronda Rousey fought Holly Holm, [2:19:43] in their rematch. It was December of whatever year that was. And I was in Mexico with my family, and I looked up what bar has the UFC, and we went to go watch the fight. Now that's seven, eight, nine years ago. And now you're just on an iPad. Correct. Or you're streaming it to your hotel TV. So even 4th of July weekend, different this year, 250th anniversary, 4th of July is actually a Saturday. So there's a lot of free entertainment out there. But that weekend, and in my prior [2:20:13] pushed ESPN to have a boxing match on that weekend from Australia.

[2:20:16] That weekend is wide open for viewership, so open that people watch the hot dog eating contest. [2:20:23] There's nothing on. What does that tell you? [2:20:26] Again, summertime for us. [2:20:28] wide, [2:20:29] open. How about last weekend of June? Because the draft, they even moved it up, I think even... [2:20:35] Closer to the finals... [2:20:37] For the NBA. So now it's like that last weekend has zero. Shockingly, you would say that we have a PLA on June 27th. [2:20:44] There you go. There you go. [2:20:46] What are you the most excited about for WrestleMania? [2:20:49] Thank you. [2:20:51] I think Roman punk is really interesting to me. [2:20:54] Just from a career versus career standpoint? Yeah. I think Punk said it again on the Go Home Show, this is my first one-on-one experience. [2:21:03] WrestleMania main event match. You've had Roman several. [2:21:07] And, you know, obviously Punk left for a while and, you know, came back and has done phenomenal work, you know, with us. That was a coup for you because... [2:21:15] I would have voted no on that one. [2:21:18] You know, it's interesting though, like, [2:21:20] You've dealt with quote unquote talent. [2:21:22] you may be quote unquote talent at one point, [2:21:26] one of your employers [2:21:27] May have said, oh, he's difficult. Like, I never found you difficult. Like, what's difficult? I had the last laugh on that one. [2:21:33] Yeah, look at your fucking house, dude. No, but it's just like the difficult thing. It's like, all right, so only... [2:21:40] One company thought I was difficult. [2:21:42] And yet all these other people have also had the exact same issues with that company.

[2:21:47] Maybe it's the company. [2:21:48] Agreed. [2:21:49] So even on, on punk, like, okay, when he was in his twenties, [2:21:53] He said certain things that, you know, he shouldn't have said. What ambitious guy didn't, what ambitious man or woman didn't do that? [2:22:01] But I get where you're going for here. [2:22:04] I do think even he would admit I'm a lot more humbled from some of the stuff that's happened to me. I see things from a different perspective. [2:22:11] If I go back, I maybe would have done some stuff differently. He's been pretty open talking about that. Sure. And look, maybe that applies to you too. Maybe it applies to me also. Things I did earlier in my career that I say to myself. Could I have been a better teammate? Things like that. It was a little aggressive or whatever it was. But I'd always rather have that. [2:22:30] Like, hey, let's rein it in a little bit, then go be more aggressive. [2:22:33] Because that never works. Right. You can never get anyone to do that. Punk's at like the same stage that Justin Rose was at at the Masters just now. [2:22:42] Just runs his 45. I picked him to win the Masters, and he almost did. He kind of blew it in the final nine. [2:22:48] But he's 45. [2:22:50] And in golf years, you're kind of near the end at that point. [2:22:52] you can, [2:22:54] maybe still make a run in a major until about 50. But for the most part, you're probably still a real threat until 45, 46. [2:23:02] wrestling's a little similar. Like, [2:23:05] you can still do what Sina did and be really careful about how you schedule out stuff. But to be a main event, [2:23:11] show up all the time performer. [2:23:13] I don't know what the expiration date is, but it's probably somewhere around his age now, right? Middle, late 40s. The good thing with him.

[2:23:22] And with Brock. [2:23:24] and with Sina last year. [2:23:27] is... [2:23:28] they've all been quite responsible in their life. Yeah. So the conversation of, Hey, [2:23:33] You, Brock. [2:23:35] Or now, Punk, you have to tell us. [2:23:38] when you start feeling like, [2:23:40] I'm not going the way that I used to go. Right. Tell us. [2:23:43] And let's figure out, you know, something else for you. [2:23:46] Again, you have to leave it before it leaves you. So far, now, [2:23:50] Punk tore his tricep in his first Royal Rumble back. Yeah. [2:23:54] Okay, came back nine months later. [2:23:55] So far, you know, he's performed at an A-plus level. Fingers crossed. He's had some bad luck injuries this decade. [2:24:01] Look, Bron Breaker went down, then Seth went down. Bron Breaker went down. I mean, was it true he was going to be in a major... [2:24:08] Saturday or Sunday? Well, listen, there was a major push behind him. That was evident. And, you know, we hadn't finalized, you know, WrestleMania matches or order of matches at that moment. But you saw Seth, [2:24:21] come back from the fake injury. [2:24:23] which was one of the greatest [2:24:24] works of all time, in my opinion. It worked. He even went kayfabe with his young daughter. [2:24:30] Yeah. You know, it worked. And then he came back and really got injured. [2:24:34] And then Bron got injured. [2:24:36] And it's something, you know, we're, [2:24:38] consistently having to deal with like any other sports franchise. And it can change the whole season. You just saw with the Lakers – [2:24:44] Who's the biggest WWE star in 2033? [2:24:48] I think there's a shot for a couple of people. [2:24:51] I think Maria is in her late 20s.

[2:24:54] Rhea Ripley. [2:24:56] She's amazing. She's amazing. Yeah, she's amazing. [2:25:01] She has a chance. She has a chance. [2:25:04] She's already up there. She also passes, though, when you're in the room test. [2:25:08] Does this person feel like a major person just walked down the runway into the ring? No question. She has it. Yeah. [2:25:15] Not a long list for that. So she's in her 20s. Roman always had that. [2:25:19] Always. [2:25:20] And that was probably why Vince stuck with him, even when the fans kind of tired. Like, you could feel it in the room. Like, he had something. You knew it. Listen, I'm not sure. [2:25:28] There's certain guys who come in the room and everyone comes, certain men and women who come in the room and everyone comes to them. And then there's other people who have to go up to everybody. Yeah. So with Rhea, with Roman, assume everyone. Yeah, when I say the room, I'm talking about an 80,000 seat football stadium, but. [2:25:44] You can't really explain it until you see it. [2:25:47] Hogan was the number one all time for that. As soon as he would appear. Actually, Andre probably was. One of those two. I always feel like Andre was, even though we've seen so many of his matches, he was right when I was getting into it. Yeah. But if you're there in 1980 and he's walking into Shea Stadium, it's the most riveting thing you've ever seen. Were you shocked? [2:26:07] and or disappointed or hurt when you then saw [2:26:11] videos of Hogan previously slamming Andre at Shea Stadium, or did you know that? Yeah, no, we knew about that. Even when we did the documentary, we knew. Because they toured together for like a year in, what was it, 80 or 81? And wrestled in Japan. There's a lot of evidence of that. So we're a couple years apart. Yeah. Just a couple years.

[2:26:31] But when you're 12 and someone's like 16, that's a big difference. [2:26:35] So when I was watching, first of all, when Patera and Stud cut Andre's hair, I was like, [2:26:40] Like I couldn't sleep. [2:26:42] That was maybe I was eight or seven or eight. [2:26:44] Like that was like shocking. Tough one. And then when Bundy... [2:26:48] broke Hogan's ribs. I think so Hogan could go to Japan. [2:26:51] I remember like sleepless, like, oh my God, I can't believe he's dead. My first one was Killer Khan breaking Andre's leg, which. Wild. Andre broke his leg, but then they said Killer Khan did it. They got a whole awesome angle out of it. And that was a great one. It was great. Because Andre was laid up. He did break his leg. He was laid up. [2:27:09] You never answered my 2033 question. Rhea? [2:27:13] I'm high on Logan Paul. [2:27:16] It's pretty good. It's good, dude. [2:27:19] And by the way, he puts in the work. So one thing... But wasn't it ultimately like for him... [2:27:24] That's what he wants to be is to be in this business because it seems like he's trying to do so many different things. I think it's part of what he wants to be on a full-time basis. He's full-time with us now. And, yeah, he does the card rippets and the Pokemon stuff and his podcast with us through Fanatics. He's just turned 30. [2:27:43] Okay, that's good. So hi, I'm Logan. [2:27:46] I'm high on Braun. [2:27:47] Yeah. [2:27:48] We cannot rush it, though. [2:27:50] Got to sort of let him develop at his own pace. And he's an excellent athlete who obviously grew up in the wrestling business. [2:27:58] but let it develop at its own pace, which we're all on the same page about. I think all three of those, Oba's an obvious one. I'm high on trick.

[2:28:07] I like the fact that he's an SEC athlete. I like the fact that he sort of inherently understands media. [2:28:13] I like the fact I always look for people whose inner voice matches their outer voice. [2:28:18] I look for that in wrestlers. I look for it in political... [2:28:21] People, if your inner voice matches your outer voice, you have a shot. Trick Williams is Trick Williams. So I like that. How much time do you spend talking to Triple H about this, about... [2:28:34] Like kind of what do you think a lot? [2:28:36] Yeah, I would imagine this is most of the conversation. That is somewhere from some of the conversations I have in life, trying to figure out. [2:28:44] different artists or different people we have or we're interested in. But what's working on your business? Why did that not work? [2:28:50] It's like those two people together, there's something there. [2:28:53] It's also similar to our business, [2:28:56] You got to go. [2:28:57] Your frequency is heavy. [2:28:59] Yeah. Like, if you... [2:29:01] tough to get an audience this way. But if you said, okay, I only have to do, you know, 12 podcasts a year, [2:29:08] No, you have to be in the mix. Correct. You've got to go every week. The best ones, though, are when you think... [2:29:13] It hasn't happened yet, but you're convinced it's going to happen. [2:29:17] Because we have... [2:29:18] Not to single a putt out, but we have this college football podcast called Ringer Tailgate. [2:29:24] I know it's good. [2:29:26] And I know it's going to be a bigger thing. And I feel like this season, it could be a bigger thing. And I just like, we just have... [2:29:32] the right group of people and the right chemistry. And this is like a show that's going to work. They speak about college football the way that people who are real college football fans speak about college football. You just want to hang out with these guys as they shoot the shit about this. And it's like, it's going to happen this year. And if it doesn't happen, I'm going to feel like it's my fault.

[2:29:50] I sort of look at things the same way. I know Triple H does also. If someone has all the tools in the ring, in ring, and puts in the time, [2:29:58] and manages their life outside of the ring. [2:30:02] if it doesn't happen, [2:30:03] It's sort of on us. Right. Right. The creative. And if they, if they fuck it up, it's different. [2:30:09] And there's a lot of chances to fuck [2:30:10] Get up as you know. - Well, and sometimes, especially in wrestling, if the guys get the smoke blown up their butt early and they're doing pretty well, it can go to their heads. We've seen that many times. - By the way, in all professions, [2:30:23] When fame comes early 20s, you see it with athletes all the time. Sports center anchors. [2:30:28] It's happening to all kinds of people. You saw it in the media business over and over again. Did you catch the Lamar Odom documentary on Netflix yet? I didn't watch it. You knew the whole story. Yeah, I knew the story. By the way, I was at UNLV when he was supposed to come to UNLV. Remember, he signed their... [2:30:43] for a moment before he went to Rhode Island. Yeah. He was so good, so young. [2:30:49] that you almost wish he wasn't that good. Right. Because the things... [2:30:54] that you can't teach, [2:30:55] he inherently had. [2:30:57] but the things... [2:30:59] that you had to manage, he inherently couldn't manage. And I don't mean to critique his life, but sometimes when you're so young and so good, [2:31:05] It can mess you up. [2:31:07] basketball has a lot of those, a lot. [2:31:09] I mean, one of the most famous ones ever was Marvin Bad News Barnes, who I think, [2:31:14] had probably top 25 forward talent. It was just, but just off the court, complete disaster. And,

[2:31:21] Tosh McDavid. There's a couple guys now that I won't mention that we worry about. One thing you guys are doing that I love, that I feel like I'm responsible for this, even though I can't take any credit for it, but I have mentioned it to you every time we talk. I love managers. [2:31:37] Just feel like we never had enough managers. I don't know why we got away from that in the 80s. [2:31:41] So now you have McAfee. Yep. [2:31:44] as maybe... [2:31:45] a heel manager. It seems like we're headed that way. Yes. [2:31:48] which is weird because he's also doing a show in his pit every day where he's not a heel manager. But I fully support it. But just in general, and then Stephen A. said this week that [2:31:58] Is that true? Did you talk to him about potentially being a manager? Listen, I'm not. [2:32:02] You know, love Stephen A. And by the way, he's bringing his show First Take. [2:32:06] to Vegas for WrestleMania, he would be a phenomenal manager. And he wants to be a heel. Most people say they want to be heels. He really wants to be a heel. They want to be like the cool heels, like Hall and Nash. They don't want to be the monster. McAfee came in as a monster. [2:32:22] Heel. Different than who he actually is on his show. It's easy... [2:32:28] Not even an easygoing guy. [2:32:29] from my point of view, monster heel. [2:32:31] You have always said, bring back more managers. It's something, again, when Triple H and I went to go see Sean and Matt Bloom a year ago, [2:32:38] We said, hey, look, keep in mind also, in addition to the in-ring performers accelerating their path for ones who may just not have an in-ring or who bodies may break down, if they're good on the mic. [2:32:50] Send them this way.

[2:32:51] By the way, managerial, ring announcers, [2:32:54] There's plenty of work to be done. I don't think there's a ring announcer school. Who do we think is the best manager of all time? [2:33:01] I go Heyman and Bobby Heenan. [2:33:04] What do you say? [2:33:05] I have... [2:33:07] I think Heyman is the best one I've ever seen. It actually... [2:33:11] Guiding. [2:33:13] kind of owning the room sometimes, like in a way like that – [2:33:18] some of the best wrestlers ever can really like everyone kind of shuts up when he's talking. [2:33:23] Keenan was crazy because he could also wrestle. [2:33:27] and would get thrown around and get his ass kicked. The Grand Wizard, that whole era, I still... [2:33:33] I don't really know what his gimmick was, but I was scared of him as a kid. [2:33:37] Captain Lou Albano was great. [2:33:40] Do you know that's Pete Bavacqua's second cousin? Not suppressed. Yes. Yeah, not suppressed. Like legit. [2:33:47] cousin or uncle or something like that. My favorite ones as a [2:33:52] teenager who couldn't get a date were Missy Hyde and Miss Elizabeth. [2:33:56] Well, listen. So we haven't really brought the late 90s, kind of brought it back a little. I still feel like there's some meat on that bone, too. [2:34:03] You're also talking, you know, [2:34:05] Mid-80s, you're 15, 16 years old, Missy Hyatt. It's an important group, though. Yes, I understand. Missy Hyatt. [2:34:13] Pretty attractive. By the way, did you ever catch that she did one Piper's Place type thing for WWE that didn't work out? [2:34:21] Of course, it was called like the Missy. Yeah, it didn't go well. They had one major thing on it. I had some questions. Yeah, of course. I didn't know that you knew that. Well, there was one that was making the rounds. Something happened on one of those.

[2:34:33] There was a really eventful, I can't remember what it was, but there was some sort of, [2:34:38] major thing that happened in the storyline. [2:34:41] And I was like, oh yeah, I forgot you had it. It didn't work. A couple questions from my buddies, Gus and Sal. Yes, sir. [2:34:48] If you could change the result of one match... [2:34:51] since you've taken over. [2:34:53] You just go back and mulligan a match. [2:34:56] What would the match be? [2:34:57] Why don't I know that? [2:34:58] we've taken over. Well, you know what I mean? Since you've been involved with the WWE, however many years, [2:35:04] Is there one mulligan match? You're like, ah, fuck, we should have done that instead. [2:35:09] It's a good question. [2:35:10] It's a great question. [2:35:11] as I think it through, [2:35:14] I think Cody not beating Roman at WrestleMania, [2:35:18] 2023 was the right move at SoFi and making it wait and ripen another year. [2:35:24] And doing it in Philly was the right move. [2:35:26] What about you? What match have you seen? Jog my memory here where you're like, ah, it shouldn't have played out that way. [2:35:32] Mine is more like I just don't understand what happened to the Royal Rumble. [2:35:37] where it maybe it was just because where it was located this year. [2:35:41] But, um, [2:35:42] I used to like when they were like the five or six completely random. Oh my God. [2:35:47] I haven't thought about this person for 20 years or, oh my God, that's Kevin Nash. [2:35:52] He's here. [2:35:54] And I don't know why we went away from that. So I'd say there's one inherent issue that is solvable in, [2:35:59] but not as easily solvable as it used to be. [2:36:02] Now, because as you know, athletes with science and working out and this and that, their careers go much longer than they used to. Yeah. If I said to you, okay, who from the late 90s, NWO,

[2:36:13] You know, who would you like to see? [2:36:15] Come back. [2:36:16] but, [2:36:18] There's no one. [2:36:20] So Hogan, rest in peace. [2:36:22] Yeah, so you'd almost have to go to late 2000s or early 2010s. So the thing about Stone Cold retired when he was 38. We're just talking about punk is 47. [2:36:32] You're tied at 38%. [2:36:34] And see, these are good points. Right. So there aren't [2:36:36] Kurt Angle, by the way. I love Kurt. [2:36:39] Bad knees, just had double knee surgery. We can't clear him medically. He could come out and do something on the mic and all of that stuff. [2:36:46] But there aren't men or women where you're like, oh, this guy's readily available. Remember even Tatanka came back 10, 15 years ago? Assume Tatanka. [2:36:55] How old do you think he is now, 65? [2:36:59] Yokozuna still live? No. [2:37:02] Another question. [2:37:04] Would you ever consider... [2:37:06] doing the 80s thing. [2:37:08] using WWE to mirror things that are going on in real life, like some of the political stuff. Too tough. That seems like that ship sailed 20 years ago. It's too tough with the political environment now. [2:37:18] like to have ICE officers arresting, [2:37:21] You'd never do any of that stuff. That would be crazy. That would be awful. But could you do like... [2:37:30] I don't know, somebody like a super left liberal wrestler as a heel who's just like constantly correcting everybody or do like a super MAGA. Like you just would stay away completely from all that stuff. We did it for a moment in time in NXT when we were coming out of COVID. The guy who's in the Wyatt Six now, Joe Gacy.

[2:37:49] was... [2:37:50] before he would... [2:37:53] let's say body slam you, he would apologize for, [2:37:56] that he had to, that didn't work, but he was like, I'm very sorry that I have to wrestle you. [2:38:03] very sorry that... So like a politically correct angle. Right. Everything. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. [2:38:10] Something there. I mean, it is, one of the great things about wrestling is it always mirrors whatever time of [2:38:16] was happening in. So you go back to the 70s and 80s stuff. You can't get mad at some things that were happening because it was like everybody was cool with it. Really, the only time [2:38:25] people weren't cool was the, the Sergeant Slaughter Hulk Gulf War, like that whole area. That was the one time people were like, yo, what are you guys doing? This is crazy. Think about it. Like life is wrestling. Wrestling is life. Yeah. Both reflect one another. In my opinion, the Sergeant Slaughter thing, when he's like, I'm now an Iraqi sympathizer. What are you doing? You're going to get killed. What are you doing? Brings in the Iron Sheik as General Adnan brings in, uh, no, brings in Iron Sheik as Colonel Mustafa, uh, [2:38:54] Brings in Adnan Al-Kasey as General Adnan. It's insane. Sheik speaking Farsi. I think it's the single craziest thing they ever did. I can't believe nobody stopped it. One other question from those guys. Yes. When do you become a character? Never. Never. That will never happen. You'll never do it. Never, ever, ever. I'm a behind the scenes guy. By the way, if you remember in my prior profession, I never asked to do podcasts, did podcasts, did interviews. I believed for me as an agent...

[2:39:23] It was best for my name to appear after pay to the order of only now at a publicly traded company with WrestleMania coming up. It's different. We obviously want to get media coverage, but Triple H will do most of that on our collective behalf. [2:39:36] in terms of a character who's also a real-life executive, but never, ever, ever will that happen. [2:39:41] What's your biggest fear for the next 18 months? [2:39:45] Thank you. [2:39:47] Listen, I think there's a lot of concerns in the country. I think there's some concerns with the economy. I think the middle class started getting squeezed 10 years ago. [2:39:54] So, you know, people with money are fortunate and they have a lot of disposable income. [2:40:00] Those things can always affect any business. However, I've noticed coming out of COVID, during COVID, people, this is not my original thought. So we're clear. People wanted to buy things in COVID. Now people want to have great experiences. And WWE and boxing and UFC, which I have nothing to do with on the business side, they're all great live event experiences. So if you can get it right. [2:40:23] Rarely do people go home disappointed. Hopefully we get it right more than we get it wrong. Live events, movies, concerts. It feels like everything. People want to be around people again. I also think a big piece of that is [2:40:34] You can just kind of... [2:40:36] we can kind of live... [2:40:38] a month straight and not see other humans if you really wanted to. [2:40:42] or you have less connective tissue, [2:40:45] People don't go to the office every day. There's a lot of places where it's like three days a week or, [2:40:49] two days a week or work remotely, [2:40:52] I think it's one of the last places where people don't go to bars in the same way.

[2:40:57] No question. By the way, restaurants. Look at the restaurants closing in LA. The restaurant thing's bad. There's a number of reasons, but it used to be in LA on a Thursday night. [2:41:05] There were 15 restaurants and we said, let's go somewhere fun for dinner. 15 spots you could go to. Now on a Thursday night, you go and everything's sleepy. [2:41:13] It's different. People are like, they're doing food orders, and they're just grocery shopping. Yeah, so. I have some theories on that, by the way. [2:41:20] So food orders, like you said. I also think the proliferation of personal chefs is... [2:41:26] where it's not just billionaires who have them. So you can have someone come cook for you. Or cook a bunch of things. Cook a bunch of things. And I think [2:41:32] for celebrities, [2:41:34] with the iPhone, tough to go out in public. [2:41:36] What are you going to go? You and I are going to go get drunk and someone's going to catch you on an iPhone acting drunk or even speaking to your wife. You know, I'm sure you've seen what people are like. [2:41:46] maybe not in Los Angeles and other slots, people recording you like, oh, there's Bill Simmons, there's Bill Simmons. Like, why would Leonardo DiCaprio subject himself to that? [2:41:56] you [2:41:57] And then... [2:41:58] Fewer people go. [2:41:59] because of that. [2:42:01] I think that the... [2:42:03] Lack of drinking. [2:42:06] is a piece of this too at the restaurants. I don't think people drink the same way just at all. And even like, I was talking to, Chang and I were talking about this recently because he has a bunch of theories on this, but [2:42:16] Um, [2:42:17] Saying like when people... [2:42:20] whatever this shit, the 20-something generation. [2:42:23] You go to the bar, you get a drink, you just pay for the drink. [2:42:26] And if I bought you a drink, you would immediately Venmo me.

[2:42:30] your side of the drink. [2:42:31] Versus keeping the tab open? Sure. [2:42:33] Nobody keeps the tab open. I've noticed that when I keep the tab open at a place, the bartender always seems really excited. People are keeping the tab open. So some of the habits, I think, are different. But I think the Postmates and the food ordering stuff has really hurt. It's just way easier to stay home and eat. But think about it. When we were kids, you could really only get two things for delivery, pizza and Chinese food. Yeah. Now you can get everything... [2:42:57] Delivered. [2:42:57] So to your point... And from a money standpoint, because if you're driving the restaurant, [2:43:03] Maybe there's parking or valet or whatever. [2:43:06] Then there's service tip, [2:43:09] It probably is a cancel out from what you did if you did Uber Eats or whatever anyway. [2:43:14] so [2:43:15] So yeah, habits change, but I think live events feel like they're even more... [2:43:20] I'm so happy movies came back. [2:43:22] same movies are back like for real and i think comedies haven't come back but horror movies have come back big temple stuff imax stuff [2:43:30] And it feels like that at least is good now. By the way, we went to see the Ryan Gosling movie week three. Yeah, still packed. Packed. [2:43:39] packed at the [2:43:41] I'm Max. [2:43:42] version. [2:43:43] in the valley. [2:43:45] what used to be the arc light, [2:43:47] Sherman Oaks, [2:43:48] Thing is now AMC. [2:43:50] It's great. [2:43:51] So you still feel like from an attendance standpoint, even though you're down a little bit, the live experience still matters and it's not something you're worried about. Listen, we're down like a single digit percentage. Yeah. So-

[2:44:02] one or 2%, whatever it is now. I'm not concerned about that at all. It's seen as retirement tour, which we planned for. [2:44:08] Assume people were going to, it was real. This is the last time you're going to see him wrestle. [2:44:14] In this city, we plan for it. Okay, we have a crop of A-plus listers who can main event. Okay, they're not in their 20s or 30s anymore. Let's plan for that. It's all about trying to see what's around the corner and getting ready for it. No different than your business. [2:44:30] So, right, originally it was, you were the hoops guy. [2:44:33] Right. Then you branch out. Correct. Now you're doing movies. Right. Right. It's like, okay, well, nobody's doing that. Okay. Well, I was kind of the movies guy. I referenced Karate Kid earlier. No one else was doing that. It's like, why don't I talk about the other movies that people want to talk about? Yeah. So it works. And what's ESPN brought to you? I think it's still weird to see it on SportsCenter. I have no idea if I like it or not. The coverage is outstanding. Yeah. No, they're really covering it. [2:44:56] like a real sport, which obviously I like because I've always liked wrestling, but it's still... [2:45:01] I don't know when I'll get used to it, I guess is my point. Why do you hurt me? [2:45:05] No, I'm not against it or for it. I'm just like, wow, this is crazy. ESPN used to not acknowledge wrestling, and now... [2:45:12] They're interviewing so-and-so on the 6 p.m. Sports Center. Just strange. Keep in mind, 20-plus years ago, WWE was on UPN. Yeah. And the Nashville Network, which became the National Network, which became TNN, which became Spike, which is now Paramount. [2:45:27] Now we're on Netflix, USA, Netflix. [2:45:32] ESPN.

[2:45:33] It's worked out, in my opinion, great for the consumer, great for the company, great for our athletes in terms of their potential to cross over like Rock and Cena and the Bellas and the Miz. You always want the good partner that actually is glad to have you and is pushing you. For sure. And I also think... [2:45:52] I don't like when deals get inherited. [2:45:54] So Della, uh, [2:45:56] was the driver of the WWE deal at Netflix. Yeah. Jimmy Pataro was the driver of the WWE deal at ESPN. That's a good thing. [2:46:05] The successor, as you know, rarely just says, I'm just going to do what the predecessor did. [2:46:09] So I like that the people sort of in the seats were the big champions. Yeah. And, you know, have certainly showed up. [2:46:16] and turn out for us. [2:46:17] Bonus question before we go. How's your back? Can you make two more minutes? Yeah, we're good. [2:46:22] I have a question for you before we go. What was your takeaway on the Netflix... [2:46:26] Paramount, Warner Brothers, Love Triangle. [2:46:31] What did you think Netflix was going to win? [2:46:36] It certainly appeared that way. [2:46:38] But I also thought, [2:46:40] you know, you have a legitimate billionaire on the other side. [2:46:43] who's willing to subsidize and use relationships. Correct. It's no different. [2:46:49] If... [2:46:50] David and Larry Ellison wanted to buy this home. [2:46:54] When you wanted to buy this home, I would bet on them. [2:46:58] to get this home. Thank God they didn't. Thank God. It's a nice studio. It's a beautiful place. As successful as you are, it's different. Levels of

[2:47:05] wealth. You're like super, super rich. So you felt like as soon as, so Netflix is ahead, seems like they're getting it, and you're like, I'm not counting out the Ellicott's yet. If they really want this, they're going to get it. Tough group to count out. [2:47:16] And I have no inside info. I've only read what's available publicly, but [2:47:22] In my opinion, they were never really out, even when Warner Brothers Discovery wasn't answering texts and this and that. Having gone through, and I get it, it was WWE and UFC merging, which seems to have worked quite well under TKO. Having gone through a semi-similar transaction. [2:47:38] Yeah. [2:47:39] Warner Brothers Discovery does not have a controlling shareholder. [2:47:42] So it was going to be up to the shareholders at a certain price, purely up to the shareholders. At WWE, it was also purely up to the shareholders, so long as Vince McMahon was not treated any differently than any other shareholder, which he was not. So whoever presented the best offer for the shareholders, [2:47:59] Who's going to get the company? [2:48:01] That's how I saw Warner Brothers Discovery and Paramount. And you had one side, [2:48:05] with unlimited capital. Yeah. Paramount. [2:48:08] What's your question for me before we go? [2:48:11] I mentioned the term perfect movie earlier and said Karate Kid's a perfect movie. Doesn't mean it has to be an all-time great movie. Perfect for what it wanted to be. Correct. [2:48:18] Tell me off the top of your head, what are other perfect movies? [2:48:22] perfect for what they wanted to be. Yeah. [2:48:24] Social network. [2:48:26] Perfect movie. [2:48:27] Silence of the Lambs. [2:48:29] Sansa Lambs, really good. No flaws in it. I'm not saying it's the Godfather one or two. [2:48:35] But when I watched that movie, I'm like, they didn't mess anything up in this thing.

[2:48:40] That's what I consider. Yeah, because even Heat, which is one of my favorite movies of the last 35 years, there's a whole Natalie Portman plot where I'm like, I don't know. Agreed. [2:48:49] can probably bump that one. Social network, [2:48:52] I watch like probably every 18 months. [2:48:55] And I'm always amazed how every single decision is the right decision from start to finish. You know another one? I mentioned this when I did my most rewatchable movies of the 21st century. [2:49:05] And the number one pick was Devil Wears Prada. [2:49:09] Perfect movie from beginning and end for what it was trying to do. [2:49:12] I don't know if the sequel is going to be good. [2:49:14] By the way, the trailer for the sequel looks amazing. Yeah, we'll see. The original trailer. I always get nervous. Look, the good thing on sequels now, as you know, and you've talked about this on the Rewatchables many times, they don't have to sort of pick up the storyline that we left off with, which is what ruined the Karate Kid franchise as a film. [2:49:30] Right. You could have just started a different story. It got weird with Daniel-san and Miyagi in three. [2:49:37] Daniel-san, you're in your 20s now. You don't have any friends? [2:49:42] Why are you still hanging out with this guy? [2:49:43] make some friends your age what are you doing? also like in one he's fighting for the all valley championship and for respect and in two he's fighting for his life [2:49:54] Two he's fighting for his life and then three... [2:49:58] He's fighting in the tournament. He gets an exemption all the way to the finals. I don't know what tournament this is. What are those rules? Just goes right to fighting Mike Barnes. It's one of the worst movies ever made. Quick last, last question. Yeah. What was worse?

[2:50:13] Karate Kid 3 or the new Karate Kid? [2:50:16] Not proper guy. [2:50:19] I didn't see the new Karate Kid. See, that's how much you look down on it. You wouldn't even watch it. [2:50:24] I have a hard time with the money grab sequels. It's like Jaws 2, Jaws 3, Jaws 4. I still haven't seen John Wick 4. [2:50:33] I started it. I was like, I think I'm good with John Wick. I love John Wick. I love one and two, three's fine. [2:50:39] When did you cut out on Terminator? [2:50:41] Poster behind you. After two. After two, same. [2:50:44] Yeah. 1991, two came out. [2:50:46] which was great. Alien. I was good after two. I'm sure there were other good ones. I'm fine with those. [2:50:52] Halloween I stuck with all the way through. That's probably the only one. Just kept going the whole time. [2:50:57] Did you get the opportunity to rewatch these movies with your children for the first time when they were younger? [2:51:04] And were they as into... [2:51:06] most of them as you were? Definitely some of them. I'm sure you're going through it now. Yes. [2:51:11] We were always three, four years too early with movies with our kids. We just really pushed the envelope and... [2:51:18] Probably damaging ways in retrospect. Who knows? Dude. [2:51:21] I just tried to show... [2:51:23] our children, full metal jacket. [2:51:25] Oh God, I wouldn't have done that one. I'm like, you're going to love this opening scene. [2:51:30] And one minute in, two minutes in, I'm like, okay, we're going to have to wait. Yeah, it's a wrap. It was rough. Yeah, that's a tough one. Yeah. For some reason, I thought they would like it now. We would push the envelope with the horror movies, but usually no... [2:51:43] Oh, here's the scene of Halloween when...

[2:51:46] Bob's going to have sex with PJ souls. Like we're going to fast forward to a little ahead here, but for the most part, like we were like, they're going to find this stuff anyway. We might as well like watch it with them and kind of edit it as it goes along. So my son, Sonny, who you mentioned earlier was begging to watch eight mile. [2:52:01] Yeah. And I was like, I think we can do it. I think we do it. There's one scene in the factory. We'll have to fast forward. Opening scene is Kim Basinger on the couch. [2:52:09] And I was like, okay. Yeah, that's a little. Wait a little bit here. We forget certain scenes. I get you can look it up, but [2:52:16] That scene was not. [2:52:17] at the forefront of my mind. [2:52:19] All right, so big winners of this podcast was... [2:52:22] I think Rhea Ripley was the winner. [2:52:24] Logan Paul, you also agree with? [2:52:27] All the people that run all the streaming companies you deal with. Yes. [2:52:32] Me, because you complimented the studio. Dude, you're a true American success story. You are. It's what I say about Dana White also. [2:52:40] Like you went, each of you went, you were employed by, for our generation, [2:52:45] The brag was, I work at ESPN. [2:52:48] I work at this agency. [2:52:49] It wasn't in 2005, I'm going to go start my own company and sell it. [2:52:54] Fur. [2:52:55] however many kajillions you sold. Well, you weren't allowed to leave ESPN. [2:52:59] It was like if you left, your career was never going to recover. That was what everybody said, even though Dan Patrick, by the way, did fine. [2:53:07] By the way, I saw you. [2:53:11] when you left ESPN, [2:53:13] You were at a Clippers game like the Saturday after. Yeah, I went with my friend Ben like a week later.

[2:53:19] And I remember seeing you and it was one of the only times I've seen you where you're [2:53:23] I thought he looked like a little... [2:53:25] Not. [2:53:26] sad but you didn't usually if I see you especially at hoops games it's like what's up [2:53:31] And I'll say, give me your analysis of this game and you'll give it to me. I don't know hoops like you do. And, you know, we'll have a conversation. [2:53:39] And then I was like, [2:53:40] And I started seeing you build. [2:53:42] Yeah. Right. I'm like, oh, dude, this guy's like building an empire over here. [2:53:46] And at that time, [2:53:48] when you were doing Grantland, [2:53:49] Jalen Rose and Jacoby and all those guys would refer to you as the podfather. [2:53:54] writing you or what you saw around the corner. [2:53:57] where this whole thing was going. [2:53:59] So in a way, first mover, who also happened to be great at it. [2:54:03] And then, okay, my thing, your thing, it's working. Now I'm going to replicate and try to build an empire. You did it. [2:54:09] Dana White did it. [2:54:11] Our Emmanuel did it. [2:54:12] All credit to people like that. By the way, Mark Shapiro told me when I called him when I took the WWE job, [2:54:18] He said, give me a piece of advice. He said, you're going in as a president of the company. Just keep in mind, founder CEOs, different than regular CEOs. [2:54:25] You got to give a little more leeway. [2:54:27] Because they were the ones that went out and said, fuck this. I'm going to go start something and try to make it. Now you're going to be fired up to start something else. Might have to invest something. We finally do once. [2:54:38] Yeah, see, that's how smart I was. You turned your back on UFC. Turned your back on TKO. So stupid. Can't go to WrestleMania because NBA playoffs. I don't see how they're going to solve the media rights, the new media rights issue. One of the worst analyses ever. Listen, all you need is one. And this was a line I saw in...

[2:54:57] on CBS Sunday Morning. [2:54:59] It's that if you have two bidders, [2:55:01] on one property who don't like each other, [2:55:04] Thank you. [2:55:05] Then you're in business. I mean, that's Zaslav. [2:55:09] All he needed was the Ellison's to be like, [2:55:11] fuck, we got to get this thing. And that's what he was banking on. Their stock was like $8 at one point. Dude, Pete. [2:55:17] People laughed at him. He always made good money. [2:55:20] Yeah. [2:55:21] Okay, you had 600-pound sisters. Yeah. Laughed at him. He went and convinced him. [2:55:27] what was Time Warner, [2:55:29] Let the minnow swallow the whale. Let me take it over AT&T. [2:55:33] took that debt, they said, oh, it's never going to work, they said, [2:55:36] sells the company. [2:55:37] Big transaction. Credit Tim. I have no... [2:55:40] Nothing negative to say about COVID off. [2:55:43] You know how hard it is to pull it off? Think about how many people try and how many people fail. [2:55:48] You did it. You did it. [2:55:50] The others I mentioned did it. It's impressive. [2:55:52] By the way, I like our chances. Thanks for ending on a compliment. Of course. It was great. Good luck this weekend on WrestleMania. I'm not going this weekend. I'm taking the year off. You care about NBA more. No, it's because my son went to Coachella for three days and [2:56:04] We can't do the two straight weekends. Is this the first Coachella on YouTube or has it always been on YouTube? [2:56:10] No, I think they did that before. Okay. Yeah, yeah. Because our daughter Natalie is now 14. So this weekend, it was a lot of Let's Watch Coachella on YouTube. [2:56:17] which we watched with her, which I thought was a great platform. [2:56:21] to have that on. [2:56:22] The quasar stage, never even heard of these terms. It feels like every year they've upped some sort of visibility with it.

[2:56:30] Like it feels slightly more relevant. [2:56:32] as the decade has gone along post-COVID. And I don't really know why. My son was excited. The band he was most excited about was The Strokes. [2:56:40] It's a 25 year old band. He was like, they were awesome. [2:56:43] By the way, to your point and what we talked about earlier, [2:56:46] People love experiences. [2:56:48] So whatever Coachella is or was... [2:56:50] You see the price of those tickets. You see how people are getting there. It's nuts. Right. Now, by the way, I don't, I don't, [2:56:57] understand the whole Burning Man thing for grown-ups? I don't understand either. As I said, Coachella combines a lot of things I don't like. [2:57:04] having a pain in the ass travel trip, having to rent a place, um, [2:57:09] A lot of aimless walking. I don't like concerts in general. Yeah, just not knowing where to be the whole time and just constantly feeling like you're going to make the right. It's not for me. How about the- I like just going to WrestleMania and I just know what's going to happen. Now, I will sit here. Yeah. And if I want to go get some popcorn, I'll go get it. Maybe someone can get it for me. Way better. And where's the stage? And where's the restroom? Do you want to go there? Yeah. I don't get it. Hate, hate, hate. All right. That's our old guys on the sofa. Thanks. Good luck with WrestleMania. [2:57:39] Let me know what you think after. Appreciate it. All right. That's it for the podcast. Thanks to Doc and Nick. Thanks to Gahal and Eduardo as well. Don't forget to check out La Gata over the weekend. It's awesome. You're going to love it. New narrative podcast from The Ringer. Don't forget to check out. [2:57:54] on the rewatchables. If you miss base against thing, fine. [2:57:58] Kindergarten cops coming up.

[2:58:00] And that's on Netflix as well. If you want to check that out, this podcast is on Netflix. If you didn't know that. [2:58:06] Enjoy the weekend. Enjoy the basketball. Hockey, I think, is starting. Is hockey starting? I'm about to jump on the Bruins bandwagon again. And enjoy the baseball and enjoy the sports and try to stay married. I will see you on Sunday night with Zach Lowe live on Netflix. [2:58:36] Hold on. [2:58:37] We saw [2:58:39] So. [2:58:40] Bye. [2:58:43] 21 plus in present in select states for Kansas in affiliation with Kansas Star Casino or 18 plus in present in D.C., Kentucky or Wyoming. Opt-in required. Rewards are non-withdrawable. Restrictions apply, including bonus and token expiration, leg requirements, and max wager amounts. See terms at sportsbook.fando.com. Game problem, call 1-800-GAMBLE or 1-800-MY-RESET. Call [redacted government id] or visit ccpg.org slash chat in Connecticut or mdgamblinghelp.org in Maryland. Hope is here. [2:59:13] line ma.org or call [redacted phone] for 24-7 support in Massachusetts or call 877-8-HOPE-NY or text HOPE-NY in New York for Louisiana. Call [redacted phone]. [2:59:27] Ryan Reynolds here from Mint Mobile, with a message for everyone paying big wireless way too much. Please, for the love of everything good in this world, stop. With Mint, you can get premium wireless for just $15 a month. Of course, if you enjoy overpaying, no judgments, but that's weird. Okay, one judgment.

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