Talking Dateline: Malice

[00:02] Mazda has been named Consumer Reports' safest new car brand. It starts with our approach. Every Mazda comes standard with proactive safety features. So you're more aware of what's around you, more focused on the road ahead, and ready before problems ever start. [00:19] Mazda. More of what matters most to you. Go to mazdausa.com to learn more. Consumer Reports does not endorse or promote any product. [00:30] Grainger knows when you're a procurement manager for an office park, you're not managing one building. You're managing all of them. And to stay ahead, you need to see through walls and around corners. Lights about to fail, filters ready to clog, HVAC on its last leg. If you wait until something breaks, you're already behind. Count on Grainger for quality products, easy reordering, and 24-7 support. Call 1-800-GRAINGER, click grainger.com, or just stop by. [00:56] Grainger. For the ones who get it done. [01:02] Hi everyone, I'm Lester Holt and we're talking Dateline today and here with senior producer Allison Orr and producer Ann Priceman to talk about this week's episode, Malice. If you haven't seen it, you can watch the episode on Peacock or listen to it at the Dateline podcast feed and then come right back here to listen to our discussion. In this episode, we'll have a podcast exclusive clip from Blaine's interview with Susan Embert [01:30] Facebook post she made in the days after Jake Embert's death. And then later, we'll answer some of your questions from social media. So now let's talk Dateline. First of all, ladies, thank you for being with us. Thank you for having us. Thanks, Lester. The reason why Blaine is not here, I'm sure she would love to be here talking to you about the episode. Instead, you get me and Anne, is because Blaine is on her way as we speak and record this episode to do what is going to be

[02:00] And you're going to see that. I'm sure it's going to be great, really interesting case on a future Dateline. Yeah, Allison, I don't know if you want to start off and just kind of give us the big picture of this story. Watching it, I felt like I was watching a bouncing ball half the time. There were so many, so many twists and turns. There were so many twists and turns. Things got started. They slowed down, you know, one step forward, one step back. But the story essentially begins in 2014 in Georgia. [02:30] his home, his wife on the scene told investigators and the coroner who arrived that she believed he'd shot himself in the head, and it was very quickly ruled a suicide. But his children, his children from a previous marriage, and his sister, his family members, didn't believe it from the get-go. So what this story really became about was their long journey to find out what really happened and [03:00] system. Susan Embert was finally convicted of murder earlier this year. We should point out, this is a very sensitive subject matter when you're talking about suicide, and many families and people will be surprised by someone taking their life with their own hands. But this family was able to really say this was out of character, that this is not something that he would do. It just doesn't add up. He'd been talking with his son. They were looking forward to going to car

[03:29] That kind of very quick turn seems impossible. He couldn't flip his mood that quickly. So this is a, I mean, this is a mystery, and we've certainly presented it as such, but it's also about a fight. It was the fight that... [03:43] to find out what really happened. And they needed to fight from the beginning. Rachel Embert, right at the beginning of the story, says, I need to find out what happened to my dad. Like, that spark was lit in her. Not that she thought it was a homicide, but just the emotion that she had then that she channeled into fighting for... [04:03] a decade about how to bring this to justice. Well, in Blaine's interview with Rachel, the victim's daughter, she says, what the blank happened? You know, not to laugh at all, but you could almost see that as the title of this episode. Lester, will you please say, here's Blaine Alexander with what the bleep happened? I'll let our audience at home kind of imagine what that might sound like. So how did the team, our team, learn about this story? [04:33] That goes back to 2018. We saw a small news article about it in the local news in Georgia. Our producer, Christine, picked up the phone, called private investigator Lee Wilson. The family had been wanting to talk to Dateline. They had drafted, sent letters to Dateline. Christine went down there, met them in person. She was immediately impressed with the force of conviction

[05:03] So we were on the story from before the first trial started. And then after that trial ended, the appeals process began, which delayed and delayed and delayed our production. I mean, our production is the least of it. The justice system was delaying getting to answers. And in that time, it's now 2026, a lot of life was lived. Christine, who's not here with us. [05:28] got married, had two babies. She's on her second maternity leave while we've been covering this. I believe Will Embert got married. Rachel Embert had a baby. I mean, a lot of time went by and a lot of life was lived while we were making this production. Yeah, and typically that production would involve covering, you know, the handling of the crime scene and new evidence and scientific and physical evidence, yada, yada. But in this case, the investigation was, [05:52] was one hour long. It really was not an investigation. It was a woman who made a 911 call saying my husband killed himself, and they came with the... [06:02] understanding it was a suicide, despite the family saying, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, that's not possible. You have to look at this again. And the coroner arrived and about 15 minutes after he arrived, he determined it was a suicide. [06:16] Are you surprised he sat down for an interview? Not really. I mean, you could see it sort of in the interview. He's not apologetic. He showed up early to the interview. He was forthright. He talked a lot. [06:28] Yeah, and he told Blaine that he allowed Jake's remains to be cremated a day after his death based on what information he had at the time. I guess I was surprised that a coroner didn't do their own independent investigation. Have you come across this before?

[06:42] In fact, we have come across it as an aspect of the criminal justice system. A lot of big cities and metropolitan cities, places with big budgets, have a medical examiner who is probably a forensic pathologist or at least a medical doctor, someone who's been to medical school. That's what a medical examiner does. In a lot of these rural counties, particularly in Georgia, it's an elected office. [07:12] have a high school diploma, and then after you're elected, you need to take a 40-hour course. [07:17] in coroner [07:19] studies. Now, Michael Fowler, the coroner here, he did have more training than that. He had studied mortuary science and he had many, many years working with dead bodies in disaster relief. So he had a lot of experience. He had more than just a high school diploma in 40 hours. But that is the standard in some places. It was very surprising to Jake Embert's family. You know, given how a coroner's determination, they're not a law enforcement officer. [07:49] over in the interview, I was depending on what law enforcement does. It's law enforcement's job to investigate. He looks at the state of the body, but he does the certificate that says homicide or suicide. And that is very consequential to a lot of cases. I mean, you know, and our viewers know that we've done a lot of stories that are the question of suicide or murder. [08:10] So Yvonne looked for help. She found a private investigator on Google named Lee Wilson. What did you find out about him?

[08:17] Um, Lee was a detective with one of the local police forces for years, but he just got to work finding records you never even think of and putting together both a profile. And it was a case. It was a hefty, hefty case that it wasn't all circumstantial. He was. [08:40] did the work of a police officer, just a good old-fashioned detective. He did some digging, I know, into Susan's previous marriages. What did he find out? Yeah, she'd been married three times before. [08:52] In the program, you can see Lee spoke to a couple of her husbands, and they talked about the kind of tumultuous times that they had had. And then there was a third husband who actually, he supports her. He's in the program. [09:10] our interview to talk to Blaine, she asked if she could bring a family member or somebody for support, which, you know, we usually allow. We want people to feel comfortable when they come for an interview. And she brought her ex-husband. So that's a little unusual. But then we're like, what do you have to say? What do you think? And he supports her. He says she's not like that. But the other two husbands, one of whom is now deceased, so we couldn't speak to him. But the other two husbands told Lee Wilson about some rocky times. [09:40] exclusive clip about a Facebook post Susan Emberg made in the days following Jake's death.

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[11:20] Additional taxes, fees, and restrictions apply. See Mint Mobile for details. [11:25] This episode is brought to you by Penn Foster. [11:29] Sometimes things don't go as planned, especially with high school. [11:33] When you start to feel like you're falling behind, [11:36] Having another option can make a real difference. [11:39] Penn Foster High School is an accredited online diploma program [11:44] built for flexibility. [11:46] So whether you're hoping to go back and finish what you started, [11:50] Or you're the parent of a teen who needs a different approach to education. [11:53] There is a way forward. [11:55] With self-paced courses, you have the freedom to learn on your own schedule. [12:00] That way you can fit school around everything else going on in your life and stop falling behind. [12:06] Don't just get back on track. Start moving forward with Penn Foster. [12:11] Visit penfoster.edu slash dateline to learn more. [12:18] So the biggest part of this episode is Blaine's interview with Susan Embert. For fans who have been following Blaine's Dateline journey, this was a milestone for her time as a Dateline correspondent. This was her first interview with a murderer. [12:32] Yes, indeed. Blaine was new to the show. Remember, we got on this story in 2018. We've been tracking the story for a long time. And when Susan Embert [12:44] was released from prison. [12:46] She wanted to talk to us. And so she was the first interview that Blaine did with someone accused of murder.

[12:53] But really significant in the story, the interview happens before Susan Ember goes on trial for the second time. Let's face it, a lot of defense attorneys would not let their client do that. I mean, she clearly had a lot to lose, you would think. [13:06] Well, she testified in her first trial. And her attorney at the time of our interview, her appeals attorney, [13:13] was the one behind it. And I think there was a lot of belief in her. And in fact, [13:20] This attorney was also one of her trial attorneys, and they got very close. You could see that she was truly attached to Susan. She would rub her back during the trial and hug her and comfort her. I think there was a true belief that Susan had nothing to hide. How did you guys prepare for this interview? Well, you know, you prepare for an interview like this the way you prepare for any big interview. Right, Lester? [13:50] despots and politicians. You get a binder full of information from your fastidious producer, right? You get this massive binder. You read it. In this case, they also had the benefit of the first trial. So Blaine was able to review all the testimony. And Blaine's not here. Can we gossip about her behind her back a little bit? Okay. So Blaine, beautiful, beautiful person inside and out. [14:20] beginning to end before she sat down with Susan. And Susan was fascinating to listen to the kind of strange weird contradictions, the way she speaks or misspeaks. And Blaine was able to just really listen and then speak for the viewer when something is like, huh, that doesn't sound right. Yeah, I know that, you know, one of my techniques with an interview is you don't have to beat them up, but just ask them enough challenging questions to allow them to reveal themselves. So Susan used

[14:50] Jake dead. Let's take a listen to that. Take me back to that moment when you first saw Jake. [14:56] *Loud clunk* [14:58] I was ecstatic. I thought I was going to lose my mind. I didn't know what to do. So I called 911 like I was supposed to do. I didn't know what to do. That's what I did. I called 911. Was it a slip of the tongue? What was your read on that? [15:28] I think she thinks... [15:31] I don't know what word we could guess at, but... [15:34] She just didn't understand what ecstatic meant. There were some other parts of the interview that didn't make it in the show where Susan just had details that were wrong. Like, you know, she told Blaine that she and Jake had been together for four years, which was just sort of patently not true. And it made for a strange little bit of back and forth of it. Like, wait, is she lying or is she just truly mistaken? [16:04] As they got into the rhythm and kind of got to know each other over the course of the interview, I think it just revealed itself. But there were some other inconsistencies that have nothing to do with guilt or innocence that happened during the interview. You guys artfully used the 911 recording in that interview, especially trying to establish did she use the term transmitted diseases or not?

[16:34] It's... [16:34] or something else. [16:36] In her testimony and to Blaine, she's saying it was PTSD. And I think everyone else, upon hearing that, did not think that because, as we know, she was [16:46] connecting it to him. [16:47] her allegation that he was gay, the insinuation to... [16:52] Almost everybody is. She's trying to say sexually transmitted. But it ended up being evidence of just sort of an ongoing fiction being created. All right. Well, we have some extra sound from Blaine's interview with Susan. Susan made a public Facebook post in the days after Jake's death. And Blaine read that post to her. Let's take a listen to how that went. After Jake's death, sometime after his death, I want to read... [17:19] a post, you made some posts on Facebook, [17:21] And one of them seemed to be directed at Jake's family. I want to read it to you. [17:26] You wrote, "To whom it may concern, [17:28] I do not play games. [17:30] and I do not tolerate any drama or negativity that comes my way. I am way too smart for all of this, so please back off, or I will have no choice but to take necessary legal action. I am way too grown up. [17:43] to spend my last days here on earth [17:45] in jail. [17:47] Who were you talking to in that post? I was talking to basically... [17:52] anybody that read it [17:54] But mainly, I mean, I was talking to them. I was just saying that... [18:00] I would call the law. [18:01] I call the law legally. I do it legally. Call the law. If they mess with me, I would call the law. His family? Yes.

[18:08] Did I, it anybody there? [18:10] And when you say messed with you? Like... [18:13] tried to jump on me or [18:15] start trouble with me and stuff like that. Are you with me? [18:19] At that point, Susan, did you know that Jake's family was accusing you of murder? [18:24] No. [18:25] You had no idea? No. [18:27] her [18:29] Facebook post was... [18:32] I don't know, it feels like subtly a declaration, defiant, obviously, but almost like the family reads it as... [18:40] She did it. She's saying, I did it and leave me alone. But there's another way to look at it, which is just leave me alone. Stop harassing me. She felt harassed by the family. The family felt lied to by her. You know, it's an emotional time. Everybody's tensions are certainly really, really high. You know, we talked about Jake's children, but Susan's daughter agreed to an interview and then she wholeheartedly believes that her mother is innocent. Tell me about that. [19:10] their mother and does not, just as other people can never see her as evil, as a conniving, plotting, [19:18] Terrible human. She's dedicated to her mother, as is her son and her granddaughter. They love, they see a different side to this woman than many other people. And that's a really important voice to include, that there's a different dimension as far as her family sees. So Blaine's interview with Susan Ebert wasn't the last time you all saw Susan. Your interview with her was before her second and third trial. What was the atmosphere like in the courtroom?

[19:45] It's tense. I guess we always say that. One of the things, there were at least a dozen members of Jake's family in there. [19:54] and [19:55] one person on Susan's side. It was an aunt. [19:59] Jake's family. They were [20:01] determined. They just wanted [20:04] this [20:05] taking care of this done and done right. [20:09] And it was interesting to be around. The judge in the third trial really wanted the media present. Did you get that sense? [20:16] She said it. We were on a remote hearing and she started out by saying I was a teacher. And one day I watched a trial gavel to gavel. [20:26] And I was so impressed with it that I became a lawyer. Now that I'm a judge, I very, very much believe in transparency, that the public, the American public benefits from seeing how the justice system works. We also get kind of a heartwarming window into the effect this would happen on all players here. It ends, the episode ends with Jake's son, Will, revealing that he's pursuing a career in law enforcement. [20:56] moment. Yeah. I think we say this, but really do want to emphasize, he's in law enforcement. So what happened to his father and what happened to [21:08] with law enforcement's response does not happen on his watch. And we've talked about his training, he said, on suicides, on geriatric deaths, on homicides, we do the same thing.

[21:22] We go on the scene, we document it, we count pills, we eat, [21:27] take photographs we call forensics. He's a very good guy. Apparently, he's a lot like his dad, rather stoic, but he throws out hysterical jokes every once in a while. So anyway, more importantly, he really sees this as... [21:41] - I think it's a good question. [21:42] a correction, an improvement. Okay, well, after the break, Anne and I will answer your questions from social media. [21:54] Two iconic soap operas collide in a high-stakes showdown. Beyond the Gates and Young and the Restless come together for a must-see CBS crossover event. The drama reaches new heights as powerful families, long-held secrets, and unexpected alliances collide. Packed with love and betrayal, this crossover event changes everything. Don't miss the Beyond the Gates and Young and the Restless crossover event. All this week on CBS and streaming on Paramount+. [22:23] Summer is the perfect time to rethink what clothes you're reaching for every day. [22:28] With the warmer weather, you want lighter fabrics, better materials, pieces that just feel good the moment you put them on and look effortless. [22:36] That's where Quince comes in. [22:38] Quince's summer essentials are crafted from fabrics like linen, organic cotton, washable silk, without the luxury markup. [22:45] And it's not just clothing. [22:48] With Quince, you can find elevated essentials across home, kitchen, bedding, and beyond.

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[24:33] I think it honestly befuddles people why this particular department didn't call, not just didn't call for help, but didn't, [24:42] have healthy skepticism that every law enforcement officer is trained to have. And I guess if you're going back to evidence, Susan herself giving a lot of different statements contradictory was evidence in itself. Those few photos ended up being incredibly helpful. And I think the past history with financials and some behavior [25:12] I think, a very holistic case. But, you know, they would have certainly liked more. And as we discussed, the family takes the investigation into their own hands. Here's what one viewer had to say about Yvonne and the hairbrush. This came from Carrie Ann McComber. [25:27] The sister of the man deceased. I watched Dateline. Bingo. Well, let's take a listen to that. You basically have a detective's mind at this point. No, I just watch Dateline. [25:39] And not the first time Dateline's been mentioned during interviews. [25:44] Yvonne [25:47] is a combination of tough cookie and softy and not a woman to be trifled with. Very, very smart. I didn't know that she was an active viewer. It's always nice to hear that Dateline has an impact and it makes sort of our work very an extra added bit of worthwhile, I think. And it was great to hear that.

[26:06] All right. Of course, fans have questions about Susan Embert. Up first, this one from Tammy Lynn on Facebook. How did she explain away the pregnancy? What about that, Ann? She explained it in her interview that she took a test. The test came back positive, and then she did it again a little while later, and it was negative. That's how she explains it. [26:36] every word she said, her facial expressions and body language gave it away. That's at least Pamela's assessment of it. I think it's, what's next for Susan is she's going to prison for life. The family wants to make sure that's not the... [26:53] resolution for this, that there's more to do. They don't want to happen to any other family. I know they want changes to how [27:02] a coroner becomes a coroner, [27:04] They would like changes in how victims are informed and included in the process, because very often they would find things out. Like Susan was let out. They'd find out. [27:18] after the fact, or wouldn't find out at all on other things, that they'd find out through months later or whatnot. Most importantly, they want people to pay attention to what happened with the way this case was not investigated. Well, Anne, thanks very much. It's been great having you here. Thanks so much for having me. That's it for Talking Dateline this week. Have a question for Talking Dateline? Well, leave it for us in a voicemail at [redacted phone],

[27:48] a video on socials at Dateline NBC for a chance to be featured on a future episode. We'll see you again Friday on Dateline on NBC. In the meantime, thanks for listening. [28:10] Some meals are too big. Other meals are too small. Delicious Duos from Noodles & Company are just right. Pick your favorite small entree and a side. Portion just right so you're satisfied. Starting at $9.95, that's a just right price too. Dinner, lunch, or any time that's just right for you. Delicious Duos. Perfect portions. Perfect price. All day at Noodles & Company. Order at noodles.com. Price may vary. Select dishes not included.