MURDERED: Barbara Nantais & Claire Hough

[00:00] Hi, Crime Junkies. It's Britt, and I have big news. One of my favorite seasonal shows, CounterClock, is back with a brand new season, and it is wild. Host Delia D'Ambra is digging into the 2008 Lane Bryant murders. I mean, this isn't just a recap. It is a reinvestigation. She's talking to law enforcement, people from the community, even sources who have never spoken publicly until now. And you know I love a show that asks all the questions. Listen to CounterClock Season 8 now wherever you get your podcasts. [00:31] Hi, crime junkies. Britt here. Ashley's in Philadelphia, hanging out with Patrick and Jillian from True Crime Obsessed, and meeting our queen, Rabia Chaudhry, but we still have lined up an awesome episode for you guys. Before we start, I'd like to take a moment to thank you all so much for listening to last week's episode and supporting our friends over at Swindled Podcast. [01:00] show. [01:30] you

[01:35] Today I'm going to tell you the story of Barbara Nantes and Claire Hough. And the story begins in 1978 when Barbara Nantes and her boyfriend Jim Ault are a young couple in love. Barbara is a cheerleader, brown hair, brown eyes. She's popular, she's sassy, and Jim is a strong, funny, happy, like surfer dude. Like this takes place in Southern California and he is the epitome of Southern California. [02:05] even once featured in a wetsuit ad in a surfer magazine. So they were like this Ken and Barbie couple of Southern California. And a lot of girls really liked Jim, but Jim only had eyes for Barbara, who was 15 at the time of this story. [02:23] On the weekend of August 12, 1978, Barbara's parents had planned a weekend getaway, and a family friend was to look after Barbara and her three siblings, and before leaving... [02:36] Barbara's dad took Jim aside and said, listen, I'm going to be gone. You take care of my girl. You make sure that she is safe. [02:44] And he says to this day, that's the biggest mistake he ever made and the biggest lie that he ever told. Almost as soon as her parents left, Jim and Barbara hopped into a station wagon with two of their friends, and they went down to Torrey Pines Beach. The beach was packed that day, just absolutely filled with people. Everyone's surfing. Everyone's hanging out. And around 9.30, the crowd starts dwindling down.

[03:14] sleep on the beach. Again, they're like young teenagers. Their parents are out of town. Like, I get it. Yeah, totally. This is something that a younger, stupider of me would try to do. Yeah, a younger, stupider version of us that lived somewhere with a beach. [03:28] So their two friends that picked them up in the station wagon, they decided they're going to sleep in the station wagon. And Jim and Barbara decided they're going to take their sleeping bags down to the beach and sleep on the beach. So they zip up their two sleeping bags together, get in one big bag, and the last thing that Jim remembers is that he has his arms around Barbara and they're falling asleep. [03:52] The next vivid memory Jim has is of waking up cold, alone, wet, and covered in blood. What? He is blinded and so disoriented that he feels his way along the fence, up the sandy hill, to the parking lot, and he's literally crawling to his friend's car. And he's banging on his friend's car door. [04:22] him they don't even recognize him he has blood all over his face all over his hair his face is literally swollen twice as big he was unrecognizable he had been savagely beaten with a rock and a log and he can barely mutter words but he just keeps saying go find barbara [04:43] Their friends run down to look for her and there she was, nude and lifeless. Her friends start screaming for nearby people to call police and when police arrive, they find that her body is covered in sand. She has severe head wounds and they think that maybe she was beaten with a rock or a log a lot like Jim was and she had also been strangled.

[05:13] marks on her. He had taken a sharp instrument and cut around her areola and her nipple to mutilate her breast. She had also, along with being sexually assaulted, had been sodomized and I didn't get a ton of detail probably for the best but he had wounded her vaginal area with some kind of object. [05:34] Barbara's parents get notified and [05:37] By the time they're notified, Jim is in a coma for days. He had suffered a traumatic brain injury and when he awoke, he had no memory of the attack. So I don't know, I kind of always wonder if they would have asked him a lot of questions like as he had crawled up the beach, if he would know more. I have to assume he was in such shock that he had no idea what was going on. But to this day, that whole thing, [06:02] period of time when he was attacked is just a blank space for him. And I know we say this a lot that significant others and family members are the first to be considered suspects. Did they consider Jim ever? So they did. He was actually one of their first suspects, but they end up ruling him out because of how severe his injuries were. They said, you know, there is no way that he would have done this to himself or been a part of something because he almost died because of how [06:28] bad his injuries were. Oh wow. Police could not find Barbara's killer. They investigated Jim, but beyond him, they really had nowhere to go. And this murder haunted Tori Pines and the family for years. And in those years, no one was caught. There were hardly any suspects. It seemed to be a random attack with no rhyme or reason. And like so many cases, even though the family is stuck in

[06:58] The world keeps moving on and the people of Torrey Pines Beach kept moving on as well. Until they were confronted with violence again. Eight years later in 1984, a young 14-year-old girl named Claire Huff is in Southern California visiting her grandparents. Now she had actually lived in Rhode Island with her family, but in the summer of 1984... [07:24] Claire, her brother, and her friend Kim all went to Claire's grandparents' house, who lived just blocks from Torrey Pines Beach. Kim was actually only going to spend a short time there with her friend. And on their last night there, Claire convinced her to sneak out of her grandparents' house and go down to the beach after dark. And when they get there, almost immediately, Kim has a panic attack. [07:54] by the idea that it was so vast so dark that you literally couldn't see somebody like walking alongside of you that it just scared her to her core and she freaked out so bad that they ended up having to go almost immediately back to Claire's grandparents house and when they get back Kim makes Claire promise her that she won't sneak out again that summer. [08:17] On August 24th of 1984, Claire broke that promise and no one knows exactly why. Police say that it's believed that Claire had visited the beach earlier that day and that she perhaps met somebody that she planned to meet again that night, but we don't know for sure. What detectives do know is that the young teen had snuck out of her grandmother's house late that night and headed down to the beach with her cassette stereo and a bag.

[08:47] Next thing we know is that the next day, her body was found by a beachgoer near a bridge and she was laying half naked with her blue jeans pulled partly down. Now, Claire had been found just a few hundred yards away from where Barbara was killed. And the similarities don't just end there. Now, pre-death, these girls actually looked very similar in appearance and they were only one year apart in age. [09:17] they found in a similar location. They had both been beaten, [09:21] Then they had both been strangled, [09:23] Both were sexually assaulted and both had sand packed in their mouths. And both had breasts that had been similarly mutilated. Now the one big difference is that after Claire's murder, her parents came out from Rhode Island to be in San Diego to help with the investigation and to help hopefully find their daughter's murderer. Now when they were there, a suspect comes to light almost immediately. [09:53] daughter was found, they get approached by a man. This man's name was Wallace Wheeler and he comes up to them on the beach and he says, I am a psychic and I'm also the one that found your daughter. So this guy is just maybe hanging around waiting to tell someone the story, waiting for her family, but he goes on and things continue to get weirder when he talks to them for a half hour

[10:23] And the family thought this was super strange. Like everything about Wallace Wheeler made them uncomfortable. Their interaction, how he found them, nothing sat right with them. And so they go to police and the police actually encourage the family to keep communicating with him. They say, you know, he actually might know something. He might be the guy. He might, whether he found her because he put her there or he found her because he knows something more. Like we need to keep this guy talking. He doesn't want to talk to us, but he's like willing to talk to you openly. [10:53] So they say keep in contact with him and they do. And this guy continues to write them letters for a long time. And he would say that Claire was constantly coming to him in these visions and he would have dreams about her. And police eventually do formally question him, but he never confessed to anything. And eventually the letters do stop. And then they completely stop when he ends up killing himself by jumping off of a 13th [11:23] complex sometime at night and I have so many questions around this suicide I don't know I mean he seems mentally unstable to me from what we know but I don't know where that stems from or if he had been diagnosed with anything I don't know if part of this was guilt or part of this was an unstable man who then found a dead girl and that just really messes you up but as far as I can see too there was no note that I could find to explain his suicide and police said that at the time

[11:53] They were convinced that this was their killer. And the suicide just made them even more sure of their conclusion. So other than the weird run-ins and communication with... [12:03] Claire's family. Was this guy connected to Barbara's case at all? He wasn't. And not only was he not connected to Barbara's case, Barbara's family had never even heard about Wallace Wheeler. And not only had they not heard about Wallace Wheeler, her family had never even heard about Claire's case. They had no idea that another murder had happened a few years later that matched their daughters, [12:33] It wasn't until 2008 when Barbara's family finally realized that there might be a connection. They were looking online and this is about the time that the police station had started to modernize and post their unsolved cases online. And it was at this point when they posted online that the police for the first time said publicly that they believed the cases were linked. But linking them publicly doesn't bring them any closer to a killer. [13:02] Four more years go by before advancements in DNA can help bring any kind of resolution to either one of these cases. In 2012, when advanced DNA technology becomes available, they reopen both cases and they find some usable DNA from Claire's crime scene, but nothing in Barbara's case. But that's okay, so they're pretty sure that they're linked, and so even if they have DNA from one, they're pretty sure that can help them solve both homicides.

[13:30] When they analyzed the DNA from Claire's crime scene, they realized that they actually have two distinct samples. One was from blood on Claire's genes, and the other was a microscopic amount recovered from a vaginal swab. The blood on her genes was linked to a convicted rapist named Ronald Tatro. This seemed like a really good suspect. The fact that he was a convicted rapist shows that he was violent. This is the exact type of crime that he would have committed. [14:00] And it could have easily escalated. However, when they went to go find Ronald, they couldn't actually talk to him. Because by the time they get to him, by the time they found his DNA, Ronald was dead. He had drowned in what people had called a boating accident in 2011, somewhere in Tennessee. But even though it was ruled an accident, there's a lot of suspicion around his death. And a lot of people believe that it could have been a suicide. [14:30] because on the boat, left on the driver's seat was his wallet with his glasses. And so it looked very intentional and like he had gone into the water intentionally. [14:42] For decades, some cold cases have been reduced to files in a cabinet, but not anymore. I'm Ashley Flowers, and me and my team on the deck have been traveling across the country to report on these forgotten cases. And in some instances, it's resulted in these cases being solved after decades.

[15:01] Join me every Wednesday as we revive these stories one card at a time. Listen to the deck now. [15:09] wherever you get your podcasts. [15:12] Not only did the scene look like a suicide, but it was very strange that his death took place on the exact anniversary of Claire's murder. What? Yes. Oh my gosh, full body chills 100%. That's super suspicious. Yeah, so even though, I mean, it got ruled an accident, he obviously wasn't a suspect when it got ruled an accident. He hadn't been a suspect before the DNA came back. [15:42] known that at the time if maybe it would have changed things. I feel like we've all seen Dexter and this is an episode. Such an episode. So they're pretty sure that Ronald had something to do with it but because there is this second sample the investigators are wondering if maybe he had an accomplice. They get that second sample tested and there is a hit to someone the officers know. What? [16:12] named Kevin Brown, who was a former criminalist in their own lab. In January 2014, when investigators go to visit him, his wife isn't super concerned at first. At first, she thinks they're meeting about an old case that maybe he worked on, but they start to ask tougher and tougher questions. Did you know Ronald? He was this rapist. We have his DNA on this girl. We think he's connected to

[16:42] and of course Kevin is like no way I've never met this guy before in my life and investigators say that they showed him a picture of Claire and he says oh sure I remember her now to be fair investigators are saying like [16:57] See, this guy whose DNA was found remembers this girl. And when asked about it later, he said, well, of course I remember her. It was a really well-known case in the area. And I worked in the crime lab. Like, I wasn't on her case, but I knew the cases. And you remember the case of a 14-year-old girl. Now, as police continue to investigate, they have their sights set on Kevin. [17:27] And then he is the one who mentions the vaginal swab. [17:31] What do you mean mentions the vaginal swab? So they basically say something to the effect of like, you know, we have your DNA. And he's the one that they don't say exactly where they have his DNA. And he's the one that's like, oh, well, if you have my DNA off the vaginal swab or something like that effect where they're like, that's we never mentioned where we got it off of her. He brings it up regardless. Yeah, that's what the police say. [18:01] and that he had had sex with her. And police say that this is him trying to explain away his DNA that was found on her vaginal swab. But Kevin's lawyers later say, no, he never said that it was like their Claire. He was telling police when he's being interrogated that, yeah, I met someone named Claire in the 80s, but she was some 30-year-old woman. She was never this teenage girl. He was never admitting to knowing the Claire that was murdered.

[18:31] interrogation because they were like do you know any clairs have you ever had sex with a woman named claire and that was him answering the question [18:38] But police feel that all of this is enough circumstantial evidence to get a warrant, and they do. They search his place from top to bottom, looking for anything that could tie him to either case. And there's nothing found in the home, but as investigators start to talk to his co-workers, they find that Kevin has somewhat of a darker side. At the time of Claire's murder, he was a bachelor in his 30s working at the crime lab, [19:08] was Kinky Kevin. And they said that he loved going to strip clubs. He would love going to, like, dirty movies at, like, theaters. And he had... [19:19] like this weird photography hobby where he would like go with photographers to take pictures of like scantily clad women. And they said, some of them said that he... [19:30] would like offer these women private sessions. Okay. And he made some of his female colleagues really uncomfortable. And one example given by a female co-worker was, she said that he had taken a report of a violent rape and started reading it out loud and asked her, isn't that funny? And after that, she said she never felt comfortable being alone with him again. So again, it's not like he made a weird advancement to her, but... [19:57] Nothing about rape is funny. So... [20:00] That is super weird and I would definitely be uncomfortable around that guy at work as well. Now at this point in the investigation, the police ask him to take a polygraph and he does. And it will be no surprise to any of our crime junkies that he 100% failed the polygraph. The other things that look bad for him that police point to as proof of guilt is one statement made when he was talking to an investigator.

[20:30] second that you thought she was 14. And Kevin's reply, instead of saying, I don't know her, or what are you talking about, he said, no, I had no idea she was 14. Wow. [20:40] Now, yeah, it looks super sketch. Yeah. But, again, when asked about it later, his lawyers are saying, no, he's saying, listen... [20:50] they're talking about this case. Again, he knew about this case because it was one of the biggest cases while he worked in the crime lab. And anyone would say this is an awful thing to happen to a 14-year-old. Like, you see a woman... [21:02] is raped and murdered on the beach everyone's shocked that she's a little girl basically so again this is just more proof to investigators that they're on the right track and to kevin he feels like he's getting railroaded [21:16] Now another thing that police say happened is the police say a friend had come forward saying that Kevin had called him shortly after the murder and said that a girl that he had photographed on the beach ended up dead and police are going to look at him as a suspect. [21:37] And this is super incriminating. [21:40] But, [21:41] It also can't be corroborated later on. This friend who police point to, who the police swear told them this, says he never said such a thing. [21:51] so I don't know if he lied the first time I don't know if he's recanting now or if all of this was totally made up to begin with now Kevin's wife firmly defends him she says that he does not have a mean bone in his body and that everything he did was just anything a red-blooded American male would do the strip clubs the porn she said none of it's illegal none of it makes him a murderer

[22:21] See? Which like I don't love. Yeah. But she's basically saying, listen, at the time he was single. He's into sex. And she's like, I don't fault him for that. He wasn't even cheating on me. He was just taking pictures of naked girls. And she's like, you know, if you asked any 30-year-old man who was single if they wanted to take a picture of a naked girl, like you're probably going to get a yes. So was he a little more like out there? Not everyone's called kinky Kevin at work. [22:51] but she's like, it doesn't make someone a killer. [22:54] Now, even though police feel that they have all of this circumstantial evidence, there's no way for them to link Kevin to Ronald. They could never say for certain when or even if they would have met. [23:06] And them having any kind of partnership or friendship or even interaction didn't seem to fit. Again, there were maybe some kinky things like looking in from the outside about Kevin, but he was not the same person that Ronald was. Ronald was a known rapist. He had gone to prison and Kevin was a squeaky clean lab tech who had never gotten into legal trouble before. But everyone keeps going back to that DNA. What about the DNA? [23:36] can't explain it away. But Kevin's lawyers say they can explain it away. [23:43] This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. For some, summer is their favorite season. Travel picks up, kids are out of school, and adventure is in the focus. For others, juggling it all can lead to overwhelm and counting down the minutes until the kids are back in school. And many worry that they're wasting the days of sunshine. Having someone with you to listen, to understand, to support can make all the difference. BetterHelp makes it easy to get started with quality, fully licensed therapists in the U.S. who follow a strict code of conduct.

[24:13] million people globally. Their therapist match commitment does the initial matching work so you can focus on your therapy goals. A short questionnaire helps identify your needs and preferences and if you aren't happy with your match you can switch to a different therapist at any time. It works. BetterHelp has an average rating of 4.9 out of 5 for a live session based on over 1.7 million client reviews. You don't have to say yes to everything this summer. Find support in therapy. Sign up and get 10% off at betterhelp.com slash crimejunkie. That's betterhelp.com [24:43] Summer breaks should be fun, but it is also important to keep young minds active. Even though my daughter's out of preschool, we are helping her all summer continue to learn and study and just not give up building that muscle. And IXL is a great way to help kids stay engaged and avoid losing progress between school years. IXL is used in 96 of the top 100 school districts in the U.S. And as an award-winning online learning platform, IXL helps kids truly understand what they're learning. [25:13] confidence, or strengthening writing skills. Studies show kids who use IXL score higher on tests, proven in all 50 states. From pre-K through 12th grade, IXL offers personalized, interactive content for each child's level and pace. It is an easy way to support learning now through the summer and into the next school year. Make an impact on your child's learning. Get IXL now. And Crime Junkie listeners, you can get an exclusive 20% off IXL membership when you

[25:43] ixl.com slash crimejunkie. Visit ixl.com slash crimejunkie to get the most effective learning program out there at the best price. [25:52] Several swabs were taken from Claire's body when she died. And actually one of them was tested way back in 1984 and they actually found nothing on it. There wasn't like, they didn't have a ton of advanced DNA back then, but they didn't find a trace of semen. They didn't find anything. [26:09] And then it was that second swab that was sent to San Diego that they tested years later, that again had a microscopic sample that tested positively for Kevin. [26:20] Now, the problem with this microscopic sample is that it was not kept in a way that would ensure the integrity of this evidence. Procedures that are used now to prevent cross-contamination were not in place back then. So when they had this sample in the same lab where Kevin worked, Kevin was working right near the sample. And even though he didn't actually work that case and he's not the one that processed the evidence, he was in the same area as the person who did. [26:50] Now, the swabs, it was standard procedure back then that the swabs were put [26:55] face up out in the air to dry and not covered by anything just open air on the table right near where Kevin worked so anything airborne could have touched that swab now the problem with that is it wasn't [27:11] anything that touched that swab, they know that it was semen on that swab.

[27:15] I mean... [27:17] It's Kinky Kevin we're talking about. It's Kinky Kevin. Well, and so they even said that we can explain that away because apparently lab techs would bring in their own semen to test the equipment. So I guess they would. It feels weird. [27:34] It's audio. You can't see my face, but I am in complete shock. Yeah. It seems very weird protocol. I agree. But even the other lab techs who like obviously weren't a huge fan of Kevin [27:47] They would use their semen samples to basically calibrate equipment and make sure that the equipment was testing properly to register semen. So it's very possible that he could have had a semen sample in the lab. Now obviously these samples that they brought in weren't tracked by any means, so they can't say for sure he did. But it's one of those things that definitely kind of brings up reasonable doubt. And another problem was that they didn't switch gloves back then. [28:17] They were basically just protecting their hands from the samples, but they weren't protecting the samples from each other. So what the lawyers are suggesting could have happened is that if these techs were using [28:30] DNA, his sperm, which by the way would be like so weird to use someone else's like jizz to [28:37] someone you knew yeah like not even like worked with i don't love it like can you mind having to do that with people you work with i don't like this at all that's very personal for co-workers right so they're saying what could have happened is their co-worker could have used kevin's sample to test something handling it with the gloves on then moved on to test claire sample and not have

[29:07] swab which it kind of again if like all the the dice fall right if everything is in place like it can kind of be a logical explanation it definitely is enough in my opinion to cause reasonable doubt for sure and i think like part of what i get caught up on too is that for it to be such a microscopic amount in her and knowing that the first time they did the swab nothing came back i don't know um if somebody were raped and there was no protection used you would think that you [29:37] that right and this isn't the first time that we've heard of this this has actually happened before it's been documented in other states and at least four other countries so kevin brown was sure that this case was weak as hell and there was no way it was going to go to trial even though there seems to be an explanation for everything kevin sure that everything is circumstantial like the police are just on a witch hunt the police don't care they say we still fully believe that [30:07] sites and the pressure began mounting on Kevin in 2014. On a day in October of that same year, his wife came home to find the Bible open to a psalm about being wrongfully accused and next to that Bible was his cell phone and his watch and they lived with her mother at the time and she asked her mom, you know, where's Kevin? And her mom said, I don't know. He said he had to go

[30:37] And just said that he had things to do. That night Kevin never comes home. And the following day his wife got the news she feared the most. She got a knock on her door from a detective to say that we found your husband and he's gone. A ranger at a state park had found Kevin hanging from a tree. And his wife said... [30:58] that his suicide is not an admission of guilt. She said that he felt at this point he had no future, and if it went to court, it would tarnish his reputation forever. And she said it's these investigators who drove him to do this. [31:13] Now, I think it's a little bit hard to believe, like, looking from the outside in. I can understand the mounting pressure. I can understand police not giving up on you. And I can understand not wanting to go to prison. But for the reason of not wanting it to tarnish your reputation, I almost feel like committing suicide is just kind of giving in to that. Because that's going to stay with you. And you aren't even there to fight back. I was going to say, you'd think that you'd want to fight harder than ever... [31:41] to clear your name. And to be fair, we don't know if there weren't other issues that he was dealing with, other mental instabilities, but it doesn't really feel like a good way to clear your name. [31:53] Not at all. And three days after his death, the San Diego police kind of capitalize on this. They publicly named Kevin as one of the two suspects, which kind of enraged his wife. And I don't blame her. She said, you know, he was here for years. You could have named him a suspect. And now that he's gone, you're going to take advantage of it. Exactly. You could have named him a suspect while he was here, while he could have defended himself, or at least stood up for himself. And you're going to wait until he's gone now.

[32:21] And can't fight back to do that. And it is pretty crappy. So Kevin's wife actually filed suit against the city of San Diego for misconduct and wrongful death. Their case has gone to court in 2017. It's been a lot of back and forth. And I still don't think to this day that anything's been fully resolved. And Claire's parents say that they really have faith in the San Diego police. And they trust them. So if the San Diego police say that it's Kevin and Ronald. [32:51] that it's Kevin and Ronald and they're both dead now. The family of Barbara though have more questions than ever about her murder. Police now say that the cases are not connected because there was no DNA in Barbara's case. And at the time of Barbara's murder, Ronald was actually in prison for rape during that whole time. So there was no possible way for him to commit the crime. And Kevin was actually attending college 500 miles away. [33:21] him to commit it either. Like they're still trying to link Kevin and Ronald like some kind of team [33:26] But they're saying both of our suspects, both of the guys that we think committed Claire's murder could not have committed Barbara's. So now we're saying they're no longer connected. [33:37] What do you think, Britt? Like, is this just an easy cop-out, or do you think they were never connected to begin with? [33:43] I'm questioning if they were ever connected to begin with, to be honest. There's so many similarities, though. I mean, literally, the way they were murdered, the sand in their mouth, the mutilated breast...

[33:54] Did one person see what – did Ronald see what happened to Barbara and just like copy it? I don't think that's like – [34:01] I don't know. To me, it doesn't fit. It's so hard for me, though, to... [34:05] I had the same problem with the April Tinsley case and the girl Sarah that died. Police have conclusively said they're not connected. I find it so bizarre when two people are killed in such a similar fashion, so close together. Yeah, I mean, even just sitting here talking it through, my mind's going back and forth on, like, the mutilation and the sand in their mouth and the attacks in general are so similar. But... [34:30] I... [34:30] If they're connected, it couldn't have been either of these two guys. Right. So if they are connected... [34:37] then [34:38] Ronald and Kevin aren't the killer of Claire either. And then you have to explain how Ronald's blood got on her pants. [34:47] I mean, I guess it really makes sense that they probably aren't. It's just so, so bizarre. But [34:53] They have officially closed Claire's case, saying that both Ronald and Kevin were responsible. And Barbara's case is officially open. There's no suspects. And it probably will remain open for a long time. And I guess the only, like, question left in this case is whether or not... [35:10] the sample from Kevin, do you believe that it was cross-contamination? Or do you believe that he was this crazy [35:19] secret killer who got away with it. I feel like it has to be cross-contamination. The logic in me, which as you know, I'm kind of the logical one –

[35:29] says that it's so likely for cross-contamination to have happened... [35:34] And seemingly unlikely for him to have been involved, that that's the only explanation for the microscopic sample found inside Claire. Yeah, I just have to wonder why police have been so reluctant to accept that. Like, if they know something we don't know... [35:53] But I also think that they kind of behaved [35:56] like in a shady manner, the way that they accused him after death. And even all the evidence that they're pointing to, like, again, porn does not a murderer make. Well, and I was going to say, at this point, I feel like they're probably... [36:09] feeling like they're too far in on this theory to [36:13] start backtracking now. Yeah, but they have it. Just say Ronald did it. You still have a suspect. It's not like your case is back open. I'm not sure why you're trying to link these people too bad unless it is to save face and you know how I feel about that. I can't stand it. I think though we learned a valuable lesson from this. No matter what your job is, don't bring semen samples to work. Ever. [36:34] Yeah. [36:35] Good call. [36:47] So I would love to hear what everyone else thinks. If you want to go on our Facebook discussion group, let us know if you think he might have something to do with it. Is it cross-contamination? And are Barbara and Clara's cases really connected? Or are the police right and they have nothing to do with one another?

[37:05] us at crimejunkiepod and follow us on instagram at crimejunkiepodcast we'll see you guys next week for a brand new episode crime junkie is written and hosted by me all of our sound production and [37:35] And all of our music, including our theme, comes from Justin Daniel. Crime Junkie is an AudioChuck production. So what do you think, Chuck? Do you approve? Do you approve? [37:44] *Moooooooooooooooooooooo* [37:49] Okay, crime junkies, you know I absolutely love a twist and a turn, especially when it comes to people who turn out to be someone they're not. That's why I have been obsessed with the podcast Chameleon. Every Thursday, host Josh Dean deep dives into a scam so bizarre, it will leave you wondering, how did they get away with that? [38:07] It is truly one of my favorite podcasts right now and I've been listening for years. [38:11] I think you'll love it too. [38:12] Listen to Chameleon wherever you get your podcasts.