NFL Draft Notes, Knicks and Nuggets Red Flags, Atlanta’s Moment, and Vrabel’s Mess | With Rob Mahoney and Sean Fennessey

[00:00] For adults with Crohn's disease or ulcerative colitis symptoms, every choice matters. [00:07] Tremphaya offers self-injection or intravenous infusion from the start. Tremphaya is administered as injections under the skin or infusions through a vein every four weeks, followed by injections under the skin every four or eight weeks. If your doctor decides that you can self-inject Tremphaya, proper training is required. [00:30] of Crohn's disease and adults with moderately to severely active ulcerative colitis. Serious allergic reactions, increased risk of infections or lower ability to fight them and liver problems may occur. Before treatment, get checked for infections and tuberculosis. Tell your doctor if you have an infection, flu-like symptoms or need a vaccine. Explore what's possible. Ask your doctor about Trimphia today. Call [redacted phone] to learn more or visit TrimphiaRadio.com. [01:01] . [01:06] The Bill Simmons Podcast is brought to you by FanDuel. We are also brought to you by the Ringer Podcast Network, where I put up a new rewatchables on Monday. [01:14] We did Kindergarten Cop, which is on Netflix. The movie we're doing on Monday next week, Ghostbusters, also on Netflix. And we're doing a bunch of comedies in May that are on Netflix that we'll go into as we head into – [01:27] next month. Speaking of podcasts, Legata. [01:29] Fourth episode went up. This is one of the best things we've put up in a while.

[01:34] uh i've been talking about on this podcast but we have four episodes there's seven total [01:39] It's a narrative series about [01:41] the 70s and 80s in cocaine in Miami and Columbia. Please go check it out. [01:45] Also check out Sean Fennessey's new newsletter. It's called Projections. He put up a really great 4,000-word post today. He's coming on this podcast a little bit later. [01:55] Rob Mahoney. [01:57] We talked about the Wolves and the Nuggets series, which is looking pretty grim. We talked about the rise of the Hawks and all the other basketball stuff. Then we brought Sean to talk about his beloved Knicks and OKC and the Lakers. And we talked about movies and TV and all kinds of things. So that's the tail end of the podcast. We're going to take a break. [02:18] We're going to come back. [02:20] After Pearl Jam. And I'm going to talk about the NFL draft and the TV night in general. That's next. [02:27] The Bill Simmons Podcast is brought to you by FanDuel. [02:30] The NBA postseason is here, and FanDuel knows the only thing better than watching your favorite team win. [02:35] is winning along with them. Fando, the best place to bet the teams, players, and plays during their playoff run. [02:41] Build the same game parlay or try live betting and jump in after tip-off. Don't forget with FanDuel, you get paid instantly when you win. [02:48] Download the FanDuel Sportsbook app now. [02:50] and play your game. [02:51] 21 plus select states are 18 plus DC, Kentucky, or Wyoming. If you have a problem, call 1-800-GAMBLER. Call [redacted phone] or visit ccpg.org slash chat in Connecticut.

[03:27] All right, unbelievable TV night tonight. [03:32] This is October for Best Sports Month. [03:35] which I've covered in multiple mailbags back when my fingers worked. [03:38] And I think the answer is probably October because you really get hardcore NFL and there's just games constantly in the World Series and everything. But this specific week where you have basketball playoffs round one, there's games every night. [03:52] NHL round one games every night. You have the NFL draft, all the weed up for it. [03:58] And then you have baseball going on too. So I had, this is one of the rare nights where I had to actually, [04:03] Breakout. [04:04] This big iPad here. [04:06] for a fourth TV because I wanted to watch Buffalo and the Bruins. I wanted to watch two basketball games. I wanted to watch the NFL draft. [04:13] I would have cared about Red Sox-Yankees if the Red Sox were good this year, but that's a sunk cost. Sell the team, John Henry. Anyway, I have some NFL draft thoughts, and I want to talk about Vrabel at the end. [04:25] So, [04:26] In no particular order. [04:28] Pretty boring drafts. [04:32] I think next year's draft is going to be awesome. So this is almost like the appetizer leading to the entree. Like we knew who the number one pick was going to be for [04:39] for three months, [04:41] Vegas moves into the Mendoza era. And we'll see how good he's going to be. The only certainty is that. [04:49] Tom Brady and Mendoza will probably film some of the most awkward social media content [04:55] that God has ever created. [04:57] Those two guys together, anything's possible. I can't even fathom.

[05:01] how wooden some of the interactions are going to be. Can't wait. [05:05] Big winners, I guess the Giants, because Reese fell to five. A lot of people, including our own Danny Kelly, had him as the number one player in the draft. [05:14] Not even 21 years old yet. [05:16] Awesome pass rusher, you know, just do it all defender potentially. [05:21] Who knows with these guys? [05:23] But he fell to five, and then they got an offensive line at 10. It did seem like there was a moment. [05:28] when they were going to get Downs, the safety, who Dallas took at number 11, and they were going to get Reese and Downs, and [05:34] I think if you... [05:35] Gave true serum to every Giants fan, even though the offensive line was the smart pick for them. If you gave true serum to the Giants fans. [05:42] doubling down on an already potentially pretty good defense with with reese and with downs i think they all would have signed up for that and in general i just think the giants are [05:52] Um, [05:53] I said this on Tuesday's pod. I think they are looming. [05:57] as this year's Patriots. [05:59] Just that worst to first, easy schedule, added a bunch of guys, new coach. They'd check every box. So they took – [06:07] They took the offensive lineman with the herniated disc. I'm sure it'll be fine. What could go wrong with a herniated disc? [06:13] Nine offensive linemen in the first round. We talked about this on Tuesday's pod. The over-under was seven and a half, and that kept moving up. They really could have made eight and a half, and I think it ended up being nine anyway. So the Giants, they were fun to talk about. Ty Simpson. [06:27] goes to the Rams at number 13. And it was one of those where if he didn't go 13, he might have fallen all the way to the end of the first round.

[06:36] Sean McVay is one of those, I'm not trading down of Sean McVay. [06:40] No way! [06:43] Here's Sean McVay. He's won a Super Bowl. I probably would have traded down. [06:47] So, [06:48] This is one of those where this guy does not check a lot of the quarterback boxes, like career starts. He's not big enough. [06:56] was bad down the stretch, but people were then decided it was more his team's fault that he wasn't that good. [07:04] And yet, you go to the Rams and you just feel like the guy's been minted. I was trying to think of other [07:09] It's almost like a movie director. If you're in a Chris Nolan movie, you're in a Chris Nolan movie. It's going to be fine. [07:17] And maybe that's the way this will work out with Simpson going to McVeigh. [07:21] sitting for a year. [07:22] I don't mind the whole not traded down thing personally. I do think we get a little carried away with that, where if they go from 13 to 18 and pick up a, [07:31] third round pick next year, you know, and, and then they take them there. Then it's a brilliant move. But if you just take them at 13, cause you wanted them and you were afraid somebody else is going to take them. Not brilliant. Um, [07:42] I didn't mind it. [07:44] It felt about, I don't know, 10 picks too high, but whatever. [07:47] I like Stiles to Washington was great. Sonny Stiles, the linebacker, perfect pick. Gave the Washington fans like a signature guy. And then Downs to Dallas was another great one. I really enjoyed Arizona taking Love, the running back, at number three. [08:01] which was a classic, uh, [08:03] We don't know who to take care. Fuck it. Let's just take the top guy on our board.

[08:08] The last four top three running backs taken, Ronnie Brown, number two. [08:13] Reggie Bush, number two, Barkley, number two, and Trent Richardson, number three. [08:18] That's 25%. Really small sample size. But their quarterback's Jacoby Brissett, and he's being backed up by Gardner Minshew. [08:26] And I don't think they can really block. And they're in a division with the Rams and the Niners and the Seahawks. So good luck to love. [08:33] I was kind of hoping he would fall to the Titans, but he ends up going there and Titans took a receiver. [08:40] Another big thing that happened, Lemon goes to Philly at 20. They trade up for the receiver from USC. [08:47] which basically confirms that A.J. Brown's going to be in the Patriots. [08:50] because they've just spent all this capital on receiver. We get to watch another Eagles wide receiver slowly become unhappy and lose the will to live on the Philadelphia Eagles. But A.J. Brown sounds like we'll be going to the Patriots. [09:05] I don't know what the trade is. I really hope it's not next year's number one because I'm not convinced the Patriots are going to be [09:11] very good next year. There's a lot of bad sides against it, including Super Bowl loss, Super Bowl hangover, all that stuff, first place schedule. [09:19] I'm not sure you know the story that's happening with our coach, but it's not good. But a lot of bad signs. So I hope it's the 2028 first round pick. More stuff from the draft. Jets ended up with three first rounders. They took Bailey second. [09:33] Past rusher. I thought they should take in race. [09:36] They took Sadiq, the tight end at 16, and then they traded back up.

[09:40] into the first round to take Cooper, the excellent Indiana receiver. I really like him at 30. [09:46] So great draft on paper. They did trade two of their best players to get two of the picks that then led to them [09:54] coming out of the first round being like, "We got three starters in the first round." Well, it's because you traded two. It's like optical illusion. [10:02] But I didn't mind the draft. I thought they should take in Reese's. [10:05] Kansas City got a cornerback. They traded up for that. [10:08] New England traded up for Lomu, the tackle, who I guess is going to be the right tackle from Utah, but traded up, jumped Kansas City and the Niners. The Patriots never jumped teams, so that was fun. [10:20] So they gave up a fourth rounder. [10:23] in that pick. And then Mike Vrabel is also giving up the fourth round on Saturday. [10:28] Tennessee took Tate fourth. [10:31] So we'll get on the glass half full. [10:35] Ward to Tate. [10:37] connection. [10:38] Sounds fun. [10:40] Red flag that he was the second best receiver at Ohio State and somehow went number one in this draft. I got... [10:45] Slate, slate, slate Marvel Williams flashbacks with that. Remember when Marvel Williams got taken ahead of Chris Paul in the 2005 NBA draft, even though he didn't start from North Carolina? [10:56] I was like a voice crying in the wilderness. This seems wrong. Why didn't this guy start for North Carolina? How is he going to be the number two pick in the draft? [11:04] Um, [11:05] The other one that worried me was... [11:07] Thank you. [11:08] Tyson, the wide receiver, [11:10] who's,

[11:11] Stud but injury prone. And I talked on Tuesday about the different types of wide receivers. The injury prone stud. [11:17] has broken a lot of hearts over the years and sometimes made some teams happy. You just never know. [11:23] He goes to the saints, [11:25] a team that plays in the Superdome. [11:29] And, [11:30] has a pretty legendary situation with the Saints and the Pelicans and [11:35] They cheap out on training staff, medical staff stuff, and it just feels like... [11:41] Good luck all the way around. I don't know if I would have taken this guy. If I'm the Saints... [11:47] But I guess... [11:48] Chris Alave has somebody to play cards with when he's in the trainer's room. [11:52] The biggest thing I noticed from the draft, other than I don't really understand ESPN's strategy of having the college guys on... [12:01] ABC. [12:03] And then whatever that Mike Greenberg thing was on ESPN, but not just using the NFL live people. [12:09] which is a really good show. I just maybe would have used those people, but, um, [12:14] Good else, hugs. [12:17] This has been weird the entire time he's been doing it. And there's been a million comments and a million videos. And I'm not breaking any new ground here. [12:27] The hugs have gotten longer. [12:29] I think he's tried to figure out how he can... [12:33] I'd love for somebody to break this down, the hugs from 10, 12 years ago to the hugs in 2026, because... [12:39] I think he's holding on longer. I think he's trying to make them more meaningful. And they're starting to take on the vibes of somebody who's reuniting with their son who just did a five-year tour in Vietnam in the early 70s and came home.

[12:55] And they never thought they'd see their son again and they see them and they're just hugging. [12:59] for 10-12 seconds, and that's how long these [13:03] Hugs are taken now. And I just don't understand that. I know it's this thing. [13:09] It's pretty weird. And I think we're forgetting how weird it is. I just think it's strange that he hugs 32 people for 10 seconds a piece, it feels like. I don't know. And I also don't know. It's almost like wrestling. [13:21] When the moves in wrestling, they kept going higher and higher with the jumps. And then eventually you have people jumping off 25-foot ladders and shit like that. And you're like, all right, somebody's going to break their neck now. I don't know how much further he can push the hugs. [13:36] I guess we'll be on pins and needles trying to find out. [13:40] Um, [13:42] The Steelers were up, and it was in Pittsburgh, and they had over 320,000 people there. I ask this every year. I have no idea why anybody would want to go to the draft. [13:51] Um, [13:52] I'm trying to think at any point in my life, [13:56] when I was the craziest about sports. [13:59] even when... [14:01] I was going to Yankee Stadium and sitting in the upper deck wearing a Red Sox shirt and [14:06] Bruins pants. [14:08] Um, [14:09] And just was a lunatic. [14:12] I don't even think then I would have wanted to go to the draft. I just don't really understand why people want to go. Maybe I'm missing something. I'd love if you can feel free to email me at BS Podcast 33 and explain it. I just don't get it. I don't really want to do anything that has 320,000 people in it, but I'm also old. But anyway, they played Renegade by Styx. The Steelers have kind of played a pretty good song. Can't kill them on that.

[14:36] And they got the crowd into an absolute frenzy because the Steelers were picking. And Jerome Bettis was coming out waving a towel. And then they took a left tackle. And I always think that's funny when that happens. I always really enjoy that. [14:47] Um, [14:48] All right. [14:49] Got to talk about Vrabel really quick. [14:52] You know, [14:54] The story happened. Diana Rossini has been on this podcast before. I don't know her very well. I only met her one time in New Orleans. [15:01] Um, [15:02] And Vrabel is the coach of my favorite team. [15:06] So the whole story happens, and I was debating whether to talk about it on the pod, and it's just like, eh, they're both married. [15:13] both have kids. Like, let's kind of see where this goes. [15:17] And I thought I would maybe cover it in a mailbag or something. And then this week it goes to a whole other level to the point that, [15:24] It really did become a football story this week because for one thing, he's missing – [15:28] the third day of the draft, where the Patriots had eight picks. Now they have seven because they traded the fourth rounder. [15:34] But he's he's stayed there today for the draft. He's there tomorrow. [15:39] And then he's gone for the weekend because he's got some family counseling stuff and – [15:46] did a press conference today and basically was like, I have to do this. Um, [15:51] You know, he's like family first, then football. [15:54] respectable. [15:56] I don't know why I couldn't start on a Sunday. [15:58] But, um, [16:00] That made it more of a football story. And then the fact that this seemed to be going on for... [16:05] Um,

[16:06] a long time. Um, [16:09] you know, almost like that movie, same time next year, across the Brokeback Mountain or something. But [16:14] Um, [16:15] At some point, [16:17] This became one of the craziest Boston stories, I think, ever. I can't tell you how many texts I've gotten about it, how many I've sent about it, just trying to figure out, like, [16:26] Is this story going to get worse? And it actually feels like there's more coming. [16:31] And it feels like, you know, the evidence is whether it was an on again, off again thing or whatever, but. [16:37] They clearly had some sort of [16:40] relationship and she was covering the team and he was coaching the Titans and the, and the Patriots. She was covering the league. Um, [16:48] And the, you know, the athletic got involved. They... [16:51] stood up, the Athletic and the Patriots both stood up for them because they were telling them, you know, no, this story is nothing. It's a nothing burger, which you're going to do. You're trying to protect your family. [17:01] But then it was clear there was way more to the story. And now the tone has shifted more. [17:06] And... [17:08] It just feels like if all the Patriots fans that I'm talking to and – [17:13] Even somebody like my dad, and we talk about it, we're just like, this feels... [17:17] like a terrible omen just for the season, not to mention all the personal stuff. There's no way this isn't going to affect the coach. There's no way this isn't going to affect the team. Also coming off some of the other stuff that happened and the way Vrabel carried himself last year as like such a leader and the Patriots are a family. And is this going to seem genuine now? And it's just one of those...

[17:37] It's one of those sports stories that just sucks in every capacity, other than unless you're on social media, get jokes out of it. [17:47] In terms of the craziest Boston stories ever, which I really try to put some... [17:51] time into thinking about, and I didn't want to put dark stuff like Reggie Lewis, things like that, but just the kind of what the fuck [17:59] The WTF Boston Sports Stories. [18:02] A really great one, when I was a kid, the Celtics won the 1976 title. [18:08] And then they let Paul Salas go, who is their best rebounder, who's my dad's favorite player. And Dave Callens, the center, who is one of the best players in the league. [18:17] Just retired the next season in his prime. [18:21] And... [18:22] sat out like the first 35 games. And at one point, [18:25] I can't remember. I think he drove a cab one night, but then at one point he took a job working for Suffolk Downs, the racetrack. [18:32] And this was just being covered day to day in Boston. Like, [18:36] I'm trying to think if this happened now, because the players didn't make that much money back then, but... [18:42] I can't describe how fucking bonkers this was when it was happening. Like Dave Cowens, he's just going to retire? [18:48] Dave Towns took a job at Suffolk Downs? That story was nuts. [18:54] The Larry Bird 1985 bar fight that happened in the playoffs that we didn't find out about until all of a sudden he was having issues with his thumb. [19:01] And he was the best player in the league and he was in the hottest streak he'd ever had. And then all of a sudden his shot was going sideways and he had an obviously swollen thumb. And then it turned out he was in a bar fight in Boston. And then it got reported by Dan Shaughnessy and everybody got mad at Shaughnessy that he kind of,

[19:19] um, [19:20] kind of told a tale about bird, but actually it was a real story and he should have written about it. And, [19:27] It was one of the things that cost them the title. That was weird. [19:30] But it turned out he punched some dude in a bar. Paul Pierce getting stabbed was awful. [19:36] Oil can boyed? [19:37] Um, which was one of our best pitchers there in the 1986 season when we went to the world series and then had 13 pitches to win the world series. And, uh, yeah. [19:46] And... [19:47] I don't know if you remember, but we fucking lost the World Series to the Mets. [19:52] But oil can buoyed, [19:54] He did make the all-star team and spun out. [19:56] and disappeared. [19:59] and was actually on the cover of Sports Illustrated. And there were all these rumors that he was doing drugs and he was just really unraveled in all these different ways. [20:08] and then came back and pitched and then [20:12] Became so unreliable that they couldn't pitch him in game seven. [20:17] And it was one of the many reasons why they lost to the Mets. And in 2012, Oil Camboyne admitted that he was – [20:24] smoking crack every day during the season. So our fears were valid, but that was just really weird looking back. He made a doca in the Celtics. That happened recently, and that was crazy. [20:34] Irving Fryer, [20:35] missed the 1985 AFC Championship game. He was not our best receiver, but one of our best offensive players, and he was a kick returner. He was the number one pick in the 84 draft. And he missed it because he had a hand laceration. And then it turned out his wife stabbed him in the kitchen in the hand.

[20:53] And it became the story that came out and that story was nuts. [20:57] But obviously the winner here is Aaron Hernandez and we don't need to go into this. Um, but, [21:03] This Raybo Rossini story is... [21:05] is really nuts. And it's been interesting to watch... [21:08] Everybody who has a platform try to figure out ways to talk about it because – [21:13] At one point, it didn't really feel like a story, but now it is. And it's undeniable. And even today, I was really convinced that he was either going to step aside for two months or maybe even step down. And this is a guy that completely rejuvenated the team, turned... [21:31] the culture around created something that seemed really substantial. And if you had told me in January, we'd have questions about Drake Bay and Mike Vrabel, [21:40] That would have seemed insane. I don't have any questions about Drake May, by the way. I think the weird thing about this story is I don't know if it's over. [21:47] Is there more stuff coming? We're already seeing like today there was 2020, 2020. [21:51] photos from back then. And then there was like, people are, it seems like they're going through their iPhones like, oh yeah, I think I was at a bar one night. I noticed. So who knows if this is going to keep going, but Vrabel, his demeanor at the press conference today, [22:05] He just looked like he had been hit by a truck. [22:08] And it was... [22:10] really, really strange. So we'll see how this goes. But I felt like I had to [22:16] Had to mention, this is about as crazy of a Boston sports store as I can remember.

[22:23] We'll see how it plays out, I guess. All right. [22:25] We're going to take a break. [22:27] We're going to come back and we're going to talk basketball with Rob Mahoney. Are the Nuggets. [22:32] How much trouble are there? That's next. [22:35] The Bill Simmons Podcast is brought to you by my friends at FanDuel. NBA fans, this is your reminder to check in daily because every day during the playoffs, which have been really fun so far, FanDuel is serving up a happy hour. We're talking special drops. [22:48] you won't want to miss from profit boost to bonus bets and more. And the best part, it's every single day. [22:54] including the, [22:55] Today, I am probably going back to the well with the Celtics. I had everything in place for game two, except the part that the Celtics didn't actually beat the Sixers at home. But I like their money line in a revenge thing. So I'm going to try to figure out a couple of things. [23:08] to put with that, including probably Tatum to be 10 plus rebounds again. Check for a new reward every single day of the NBA playoffs. Don't miss your shot to get a little extra. [23:17] Out of the action. Head to Fando.com slash BS to get started. [23:22] 21 plus select states are 18 plus DC, Kentucky, Wyoming. Restrictions apply. See terms at sportsbook.fando.com. Game problem, call 1-800-GAMBLER. Call [redacted phone] or visit ccpg.org slash chat in Connecticut. [23:36] This episode is brought to you by Michelob Ultra. [23:39] You know what my favorite thing about the playoffs is? [23:42] I like. [23:43] And it's usually maybe a game four, might even be a game five. Game seven, everyone's nervous. There's a different level of energy. But game four, game five. [23:52] For one of the two teams, there's this realization with like five minutes left in the fourth quarter. It's like, uh-oh.

[24:00] Our fate is suddenly... [24:02] in real flux right now. Who's stepping up? What are we going to do? Let's calm down. [24:07] Can we rise to the moment or are we going to shrink from it? And you can kind of see it with different teams. It's definitely like, for instance, going to happen in this Denver, Minnesota series. It's going to be a moment in one of the later games. [24:18] When all of a sudden either Minnesota is taking it from Denver. And at some point somebody in Denver is going to have to hit a shot and you're going to look around and go, who's going to do it? Or in Minnesota's case, maybe Denver is, is, is, [24:32] is punching them back. And now Edwards has to step up or DeFincenzo. And you just never know. And you never know how somebody is going to respond to pressure. But that's why we love the playoffs every spring. It's as great as opening up. [24:47] of Michelob Ultra, a nice cold one, crisp, refreshing, the ultimate prize. Plus, as the official beer partner of the NBA, they're giving fans a chance to win courtside tickets, custom merch, and more. [25:00] You could be at one of those games when the pressure rises. Miklob Ultra, superior is worth playing for. [25:07] Enter now. [25:07] at McClubUltra.com. [25:09] dot com slash. [25:11] Courtside. [25:12] Michelob Ultra Courtside 2526, no purchase necessary, open to U.S. residents 21 plus. Begins on October 1st, 2025, ends on June 30th, 2026. Multiple entry periods. See official rules at MichelobUltra.com slash courtside for free entry, entry deadlines, and prizes and details.

[25:31] All right, we're recording a little after 9 p.m. Pacific time. Incredible sports night. Rob Mahoney is here. We're going to talk basketball first. [25:38] I thought we'd be here under better circumstances, Rob. Wolves-Nuggets game three. Jaden McDaniels talking all kinds of trash about the Nuggets defense. And then all of a sudden Aaron Gordon gets scratched. It's like, uh-oh. And then Minnesota just kicked their ass again. And as a... [25:56] Long-time Joker fan. Joker and Curry, my two favorite non-Celtics. I just like watching them play basketball. I don't think I'm going to be potentially watching him in about 10 days. It's heartbreaking for you, for many of us. I have to say, though, we give Jokic a lot of benefit of the doubt when things like this happen. When the circumstances aren't ideal, when guys are scratched out of the lineup, he gets a lot of leeway. His inability over these [26:26] Is a massive problem. And I think it's fair to hold him to a different standard. Like we talk about him as one of these stars. Who doesn't need ideal circumstances to be effective. Who doesn't need everything to be just so to win. And yet in this series. Against an opponent like Minnesota. It kind of feels that way. [26:42] It's tough because he can't make threes. They're not going in. Nope. [26:45] And Minnesota is just doing one-on-one with him versus Joker. [26:49] And if he's not making the threes, that means he either has to beat him off the dribble, which is hard, or he has to post him up, which is really hard. And they're willing to live. Like, I think he had... [26:59] He had like 23 shots pretty early.

[27:02] In the third quarter of this game. [27:04] That's not how he wants to play. That's not how Denver wants to play. But they've just made the decision. [27:11] Yeah, Joker, knock yourself out, take 30 shots. If you're not making threes, you're probably gonna go like 12 for 30. And that's great for us. So the Gordon thing... [27:21] I did a thing on Tuesday about it, about... [27:25] I didn't like the way he looked in game two at all. I didn't really know fully what the injury was, but he clearly wasn't himself. And, [27:31] Unfortunately, every team has their superpower guy. [27:34] I think for the Celtics, it's white. [27:37] um they're gonna win the title he's gonna have to shoot better and play better than he is i think for the knicks it's an inobi like you go on down the line everybody has the one guy for sure i think for the nuggets it's gordon and without him without peyton watson i don't really see a path unless there's a corresponding timberwolves injury well especially with gordon even when he was out there but wasn't himself the concept of him was enough to be a deterrent for a lot of the other things that the wolves might throw at you defensively versus a game like this and it's [28:07] that elevates like the two-man Murray Jokic stuff into like a three-man action that's really sophisticated and really hard to stop. He's the connector of so much of what they try to run. And so not having him out there, you saw it in the first half, like just the drop-off from Aaron Gordon to Cam Johnson, Spencer Jones, Christian Brown, I think combined for two total points in the first half between the three of them. Minnesota can just sit in every passing lane, clog up everything that Denver's trying to run.

[28:35] It's just it feels like a nonstarter in a lot of ways. And I say that knowing that Jokic is one of the games like great like cerebral thinkers and problem solvers in a way that we would expect him to have a solution to this. And right now it just looks like he doesn't really have many answers. [28:49] Yeah, and he looked just a whiff defeated during this game, too. Yeah. I've seen him. There's versions of him when he knows, like, all right, guys, let's go. And maybe he'll be like that in game four. [29:00] But this game, he really felt like he was trying to problem solve. And when he can't make threes... [29:06] I think it's going to be really hard. We talked too much about Denver without talking enough about Minnesota. McDaniels. [29:12] Nick Daniels, if CJ McCollum wasn't in the playoffs, would be the breakout star of the playoffs. Yeah. Even though he's done versions of this before. But he's been – I didn't vote for him for either team for all defense, did you? I did not. To be honest, in the regular season, I thought he was a little more up and down than normal. [29:29] Well, so were the Timberwolves. Fair. Yeah. When he's playing like this and Ant, even though he's clearly not 100%, but the defense was going around. Then Ayo, which was the best move in the trade deadline. [29:41] other than maybe Kobe White. They had no point guard. They were on the Rob Dillingham, washed up Mike Conley, Bones Highland roller coaster at that spot, and sometimes not even playing a point guard. They and we are still on the Bones Highland roller coaster. I want to give Bones an apology because he's just been straight up a legit playoff performer for them. He's certainly miles ahead of whatever they would have gotten from Rob Dillingham at this stage.

[30:11] we're actually watching in this Minnesota series where it's like, [30:14] And that 30-footer might go in. Oh, it did. [30:18] Oh, he's talking all kinds of shit, even though he has seven points. This is kind of what his destiny was now. Of course, he left Denver because he didn't really like playing with [30:28] the Joker and Murray and that seemed like a failure of an IQ test, but maybe – [30:33] Maybe Bones found his way. Minnesota, Minnesota. [30:38] I would call them the rope and dope, the rope and dope Timberwolves, where I don't know what to expect from them game to game, week to week. There were three different times during this season where I'm like, here we go. [30:49] I even have a 12-1 Timberwolves title bet that I made in February, and they immediately went on a seven-game losing streak. [30:57] They're just all over the map. I don't think Chris Finch has aged, I think, six years in the last two. Oh, easily. And the frustrating thing about Minnesota, and the reason we talked about them so much during the season, is – [31:10] They can do this. They can do what we just saw in the last couple games. They can get to this level [31:16] So why? Why is it a backs to the wall thing with them? And is it sustainable for you? [31:21] I mean, everything you just described says it's not perfectly sustainable. And even in this game, like they played an amazing first half and then had moments in the second half where they were just fouling a bunch, like doing the kinds of things that you might do to let a team like the Nuggets back in the game. They were just so far ahead by that point. And I think you're spot on about Jokic in particular looking a little bit defeated, looking like they're just going to kind of punt this game and move on. Yeah. You have to believe in the Wolves because of this high end potential, though, because they do have this in them.

[31:51] a game in them when it wasn't like ant was amazing it wasn't like julius randall was unbelievable it was just a collective defensive performance that was as much about you know leading scorer i would assume new as it was dante divincenzo as it was jaden mcdaniels as it was rudy gobert like they were all tethered together in a way that's really really tough to beat yeah denver had six points with like two minutes left in the first quarter [32:13] Timberwolves weren't even shooting that well. It wasn't like they were blowing it up offensively, but... [32:18] The defense was just... [32:20] Awesome. I don't really understand it. I saw them in person. [32:23] Play the Clippers. [32:25] Right after the trade deadline, when they had just gotten an eye out, [32:28] And they looked awesome. And there was like specific stretches of, [32:33] I remember leaving the game like, wow, that's like... [32:37] Watch out for that team. That might have been the day I made the bet. And then like a week later, they played the Clippers again and they were down 30 in the first half. [32:44] And that was when they went into one of their many tailspins during the thing. But I was like, what? I just saw you guys a week ago and you seemed like you had your shit together. [32:53] This got bad enough for Denver. [32:56] That I was wondering if they were going to go Twin Towers with Joker and Valanchunas. I don't know. Valanchunas feels kind of unplayable in the series at this point. But that's when we're talking about searching for answers. My mind went there for about 20 seconds. What would that look like? At this point, I think I'd be more comfortable maxing out the Zeke Nagy minutes than I would making more space for Valanchunas. It just doesn't feel like he has much of a spot in this matchup. No, I don't think so.

[33:25] I was trying to figure out any way that they could put a second big body out there. [33:30] to take some pressure off the Joker. But that wasn't happening. I think it's a little simplistic, but with this roster constructed as it is, the only way you're going to get offensive flow is if Jokic and Murray just play a lot better than this. And they're just going to have to do that against... [33:46] hellacious defensive pressure that's attached to them every step of the way it's going to be incredibly difficult if gordon can't go but yeah none of these other guys like create flow for your offense they just draft off of everything that yokich and murray usually create for them and so it's not a surprise to see the entire offense going gummy uh when you remove that like critical spacing and flow element and aaron gordon from the mix and they unlocked a couple things like they're just going to be in murray's face the 94 feet that's just how they're going to play [34:14] It seems like they want to run after every rebound. [34:17] especially when io's out there like they just want to go um and he's trying to get down all the time oh yeah when io and dante are out there together like both of those guys just like by the way they play rev up everyone around them and the amplifying effect of both of them on the floor at the same time is really awesome and really special and i think maybe kind of insulates them a little bit from some of their more wolves the up and down qualities right like the offense is never going to be super precise in terms of how they execute they're always going to be a little bit vulnerable [34:47] that. But if when you do go on the runs, you add four points to that run, because I would assume it came up with two steals in the process. And it's like, you can weather the down spells a little bit better.

[34:57] I played 31 minutes today and had a 25 and nine. It was 10 for 15. Got to the line six times. Incredible. The Bulls were like, [35:06] Yeah. [35:07] Take him. Yeah, why would you want a player like this to be a part of your future? What would be the point of that? Especially when you see him in person. Like, he's a big dude. He's not a point guard. Like, he's big shoulders. Looks like he's about 6'3", 6'4". Can switch on anybody and is just really impressive. So when they play, when they have him, I'd love to see the five. I haven't looked at the five-man lineups, but when it's McDaniels, Gobert, [35:30] Dante Edwards, [35:32] And then IO is, [35:34] That's a lineup that I feel like could hang in the next couple rounds. And it's going to be the big question because – [35:42] It seems like he's stubbornly playing through something, but he's flexibly going down and playing with it and looking at it and [35:50] I don't know. This is a long haul. We're in week two of a... How many weeks are we going here? 12? Not great. Yeah, he's not fully himself, for sure. They're going to need, as these games get a little bit more competitive than this one, the best of Julius Randle a little bit more often than they might otherwise, just because of whatever Ant has left at this point. [36:10] Game 82, Denver has a chance to just roll over against San Antonio, get to the fourth seed. [36:16] and play Houston. I kind of like that they said, fuck it, with the Denver Nuggets. On the other hand, probably better off if they're playing that messed up Rockets team. [36:26] And it switches two series because it gave the Lakers life. True. It would have had no chance against this Minnesota team. And now Reeves is coming back, and we're going to talk about that in a second. But Aaron Gordon...

[36:38] This is his 12th year. He's played 756 games, 68 games. This is the first time I started thinking about a finish line with this Nuggets run. [36:47] Yeah, where... [36:48] Gordon, who I think has just had a lot of [36:52] Nothing like a catastrophic injury, but some mileage and some dings and some bangs. [36:58] on his body and [36:59] we might have seen the best version of him. We might see a 90% version of him, but, um, so you have that, you have Joker, um, [37:07] who's been dominated in the 2020s. You have Murray with some miles on him. He had a knee surgery. I am a little worried about the long term with this team if they can't get out of the series. [37:17] Yeah, I think there are parts of Aaron Gordon's game that are going to be just fine as he, you know, diminishes ever so slightly from, I don't know, one of like seven most athletic people on the planet into the like top 25 most athletic people on the planet. Like he's such a smart positional defender. He knows how to rotate. He knows how to communicate like he's so good at tethering in to his teammates on both sides of the ball. But yeah. [37:40] They also rely on him to do superhuman things all the time, to guard up and down the positional spectrum, especially to cross-match against other bigs and really be a bully in a bunch of different ways. And that's tough if you're coming up with calf injuries and hamstring injuries all the time. You have to be really explosive to do the best Aaron Gordon stuff. And I don't know how long that will be a reasonable ask. Well, we'll see. I don't want to pronounce the Nuggets dead. No. No. [38:05] Game four... [38:07] I think is the series for them. I don't think they can win three straight

[38:12] with the banged up Gordon. [38:14] So if they fall down 3-1, even though 5 and 7 are in Denver, that seems... [38:19] too tall of a task. Minnesota is too good defensively. So everything will come down to game four. And the NBA already played their Scott Foster card tonight. [38:27] So, uh, [38:29] There you go. One last thing. [38:31] A little bit of a legacy series for... [38:34] Our guy, Rudy. [38:35] Oh, sure. [38:37] I was looking it up. [38:39] So he's made a second team All-NBA and two third teams. He's been defensive player of the year four times. First time, first team All-D7. [38:47] Career is basically 13 and 12 with two blacks. [38:51] He's played 89 playoff games, two conference finals, 12 and 11 in the playoffs. [38:55] with the declining line for Hall of Fame players in the NBA, as, as we've, [39:01] continue to make it pretty blurry what a Hall of Fame player is. I actually think there's a chance he gets in. [39:09] I think he's absolutely getting in. Okay. He's a four-time defensive player of the year. It is. He's getting into the Hall of Fame. It's hard for me to wrap my head around it. I think he's in. No, he's in. I think it's going to happen. Now, I do think a series like this could change just the way a lot of people talk about him, right, in terms of the playoff liability. We've seen, I think, some very specific moments where he was taken out of the game in, again, very, very specific circumstances. And that has been overblown into, oh, you can't keep him on the floor. Right. [39:39] like playoff situations that was never really the case a lot of the teams that he was on the falter defensively were more about like what perimeter guys couldn't hold down their spot and rudy being overstretched maybe a little bit yeah but he's one of the best defensive players of his generation if not all time he's a winning player through and through he's helped a bunch of different like at least these two different franchises at this point i think he's he's kind of a shoe-in based on the accolades alone so the reason i don't think he's a shoe-in although you never know with the line these days is that

[40:07] There's just a lot of good players that are going to be popping in and the careers are longer. [40:11] And we're going to see people with, I think, better credentials. Because Draymond's another one that I actually think Draymond is more realistic to get in than Rudy because of all the titles and all the finals and the playoffs, stuff like that. But just think if you go through the teams and it's like, [40:27] We'll curry clay. [40:29] Draymond, they're all getting in. [40:31] Westbrook and Durant, they're getting in. [40:34] Tatum and Brown, they're probably getting in. You go on down the line, it's just a lot of guys. So I guess it would depend on how many they do. But yeah, it was the first time I was watching it. I was like, [40:44] Wow, Rudy's really kind of cementing a Hall of Fame case out of nowhere. [40:49] We'll do quickly Raptors, Cavs. [40:53] Probably the best game of Scottie Barnes' career. [40:55] He's awesome. Maybe the best game of R.J. Barrett's career. They both had 33. Both have had a good series, to be honest. Even though the Cavs overall have clearly been up and mostly down, but... [41:06] They have not been the problem. They have been rock solid, I would say, throughout these first three. And they got a big Murray Boyles... [41:12] Little Jameson battle. [41:14] He's back. Hit some closing threes today. It turned out it's not the series for... [41:21] Brandon Ingram or Jakob Pertl? I don't know if there's ever a series for Jakob Pertl, but it's not the series for Brandon Ingram for some reason, which is weird to me because I thought he would – [41:29] have some good matchups. But to me, this is way more a story of the Cavs and, [41:34] all of the issues I had with them as a real contender. I just don't think they're good enough defensively.

[41:40] I don't trust the Mitchell Harden team. [41:42] Mitchell today was just [41:46] For him, for somebody that was a [41:48] First team all NBA guy on some ballots and a fifth place MVP guy. It was amazing. [41:54] Just a no-show in a game three that it's like, just go out there, slit their throats, get out of this, make this a sweep. And he did the opposite. It looked like he didn't give a shit. [42:03] especially like, [42:05] Donovan Mitchell takes his shots in terms of his playoff performance too, but it's more about what he is in a team context and the idea that you can't just have him throw a whole team on his shoulders and Superman his way through everything once you get into the second round or whatever. Yeah. But generally speaking, he shows up and competes. And this is... [42:22] a highly unusual game for him where you're right he felt a little disconnected he felt a little absent i think the calves turnovers overall had a lot of them feeling a little bit out of sorts in terms of what they were supposed to be doing that 20 yeah i mean it was a lot and toronto to their credit like really dialed that up in a way that they needed to to kind of equalize their own turnover issues in this series yeah [42:43] Um, he was bad. [42:46] Evan Mobley's just always slightly disappointing at this point. [42:49] You never feel just fully satisfied. [42:53] I don't know what food item he has. [42:55] Mm-hmm. [42:57] Where you're just like a little underwhelmed every time you have it? Like you're excited to get it and then it's like, [43:03] Yeah, this is all right. [43:04] Thank you. [43:05] I feel like you need to swing big. You need to be like pate, foie gras. Like a pan-seared filet sole with breadcrumbs. And it's like, ah, I'm not really filled. Can we get pizza? The sole manier. Tough shots on the Bill Simmons podcast this week. Just always a little slightly disappointed, but I just don't think.

[43:23] I think Toronto's a pretty bogus five seed. [43:26] You knew they were going to win one of these at home. I picked Cleveland in six, and I don't even like Toronto. [43:30] I just don't, you can just rain these open threes on Cleveland. That's how Toronto built. All of a sudden they're up 25 in this game. [43:37] Just because they had guys wide open all over the court just taking whatever shot they wanted. And I don't think Harden... [43:45] This was not like a no-show James Harden game. Like, he was a little omnipresent, but... [43:50] Pretty strange. Cleveland's a weird team. They are a weird team. I will say, as far as those open threes go for Toronto, they have to be the streakiest three-point shooting team in the league. They have a lot of theoretical guys who will hit in the way that they did today, but they will have some bottom-out games that make their offense just completely implode. [44:09] I thought Murray Boyles was excellent today. He's a dog. Yeah. He's really good. [44:14] I wonder if there's some lineups where they just are going to, [44:17] just go, they can go smaller. Cause they had these long athletic guys and just be like, Hey, this is what we're going to do. Try to stop us. Um, [44:24] Game four will be the game with that series too. Mm-hmm. [44:28] You know, home team usually wins game three when they're down 2-0. This is how a playoff series goes. Game four, we'll see. We'll see if those shots keep going in. I want to see what happens with Brandon Ingram. It's funny if you go through the [44:40] A player who's probably the most bummed out on each playoff team, even though we just had a win. [44:45] It would have been Mikael Bridges today at the Knicks if the Knicks had won. It's definitely Ingram where he's like, all right, guys, good game. But meanwhile, he's like, what the fuck? I only had nine shots.

[44:54] Um, [44:55] you know all right i just can't with brandon ingram i wish we had a larger body of work to point to that would say that brandon ingram when push comes to shove is like again quite underwhelming in the soul manier kind of way in these sorts of games where it's like even even when he scores it's like why aren't you guarding why aren't you boxing out like there's always something with him in a way that i agree with you is covered up nicely by the fact that the raptors around him acclimated themselves well [45:19] He's the onion rings. [45:21] It's like, I don't even know if I should get these. You're glad you had three. And then you're like, I don't want to keep eating these. This is just 900 calories. I'm going to feel sick. What? And then you're having, you're like half heartily eating the fifth one. Um, [45:37] We have fantasy coming on later to talk about the Knicks with us in the playoffs in general. [45:43] But that doesn't mean we can't talk about Atlanta right now. [45:46] I have so many Atlanta thoughts. A joyous Rembrandt Brown called me immediately after the game. He thinks CJ... [45:52] mccollum is in the running now for greatest hawk of all time um what is that list what is the greatest hawk list it's basically dominique wilkins and then pick anybody else after him um unless you want to go way back to st louis with bob pettit doesn't count um [46:09] Nix are up three. [46:11] Atlanta gets a second chance. Jalen Johnson, offensive rebound, put back. Knicks have it. It's like 45, 50 seconds left. [46:18] And the Knicks have been money in these situations all year. [46:21] Atlanta gets a stop. [46:23] time, uh,

[46:24] Offensive rebound Knicks. And Landon gets another stop. Timeout, 15 seconds left. [46:29] Mike Brown goes, small. [46:31] CJ McCollum says, thank you, and immediately scores up Miles McBride. And then Atlanta gets a stop. [46:38] And all of a sudden the game's over and Atlanta's up 2-1 in the series. And I thought they deserved to win the game was the bigger thing. They're up 18. The Knicks almost did their ridiculous – it would have been the fourth time in the last two playoffs that they came back from 18-1. This time they didn't win. [46:55] Why, in your opinion, do the Knicks consistently fall behind the [46:59] See, now we're talking about the Knicks. We should wait until Sean. [47:02] Uh, [47:03] Atlanta. [47:05] How many teams do you think are kicking themselves that they didn't go from a column? [47:09] Anytime from November to February. At least a half dozen. And I think top of that list, it has to be the Houston Rockets. Yes. This was one that we flagged on group chat early in the season, as far as like, what should they do post Fred Van Vliet's injury? CJ's just been sitting there on the shelf waiting for someone to trade for him. And I think a lot of teams overthought it. And he couldn't be this for just anybody. Like you need the right supporting cast. You need the guards who can compensate for him defensively. You need the movement to work around the fact that he's not like the most natural playmaker [47:39] in the world. But he gives them and this group exactly the kind of squirrely one-on-one game that they need. And so it's turned out to be a perfect marriage, but it could have been a perfect marriage for a lot of teams. He would have really, really, really helped Houston. The thing with him is he's not a conventional point guard, but he's really comfortable with the ball, which is...

[47:59] To me, it doesn't really make him any different than somebody like Donovan Mitchell. [48:03] Right. They're guards who can bring the ball up. They're not point guards. They're scoring guards. Yes. But they can kind of run an offense and they can handle the ball and you can't press them. [48:12] I was looking at his career. [48:16] First of all, he's 34. So I think if he's the leap guy, I tweeted this, if he's making the leap guy in the playoffs, I think he'd be the oldest guy ever. It's usually we have that one guy. We're like, whoa, this guy. And there's like three days of stories about him. [48:30] He, in 69 playoff games... [48:33] is a career average of 20 points a game. [48:36] And this includes his first year. He scored 0.7 points a game for six playoff games when he barely played. In 2019, when they made the conference finals and lost to the Warriors, he played 19 playoff games. [48:49] And he was 24.7 points a game. [48:51] 44-39-73, made three threes a game. [48:55] And in his career, he's basically been between 18 and 25 a game since 2016. Yeah. It's really weird to me that none of these contending teams, and I kind of wish I had made a bigger deal to my pot. I didn't think of it because he seemed so buried in Washington. It just seemed like he was going to get bought out and join somebody. [49:13] But it's weird to me that some of these teams that could have needed him, I think the Lakers are another one that could have... [49:18] Even though they ended up with Canard, and I think that worked out. But you go through the league, and [49:22] I don't know. I mean, this guy's a professional scorer, and he hasn't really lost a step. [49:27] Especially if you have any solid playmaking from two to four in your starting lineup, like a Jalen Johnson type player is. Then, yeah, why wouldn't you invest in a guy who...

[49:37] isn't running your offense sure but can connect enough players and attract enough attention to really get things going i really do think a lot of teams overthought it and i think we're seeing now where like [49:49] I want to be very clear that this is not like a vintage CJ McCollum performance. You're right that this is a leap, right? This is a dramatic shift, not just in how he's performing and in the moments that he's stepping up into, but he has a usage right now in the playoffs that's like above Ant and Donovan Mitchell and these other guys we're talking about. He's dominating an offense, whereas before he was scoring in one. And it turns out he can do that on a team like this, at least in this sort of series where he has these sorts of matchups. [50:19] like the go-ahead bucket against deuce mcbride he had been killing every deuce mcbride's size defender that the knicks put in front of him all game he gave deuce the too small after he busted his ass on like a first quarter second quarter possession and josh hart had done a little bit better a little bit of size has gone a long way and kind of containing cj over the course of the game and yet on a critical defensive possession he's [50:43] You're just going to garden with Deuce McBride? Why would you do that? [50:47] Dumbfounding. [50:49] I... [50:50] I actually did research on this during the game. [50:53] When you throw in CJ, who they're obviously going to resign now. [50:57] Maybe at a lesser deal, but they have a lot of cap space. He's the second greatest hog of all time. You have to bring him back. It's him and Bob Pettit, 2A and 2B. And they have Jalen Johnson, Daniels. They have Alexander Walker on their contract. Okongwu, who was terrific tonight. Oh, he's really good. I'm sure they're going to bring back Kaminga.

[51:15] That's another one on Akongu that's the final defensive possession where Jalen Brunson could have theoretically won it. [51:21] Yeah. [51:22] I think attention is going to be drawn in a lot of different ways. Maybe we'll just gloss over it or Jalen Brunson will get blamed for not scoring in that situation or whatever. If you watch Njeka Okongwu, because Dyson Daniels is guarding Brunson. He gets hung up on, I think was probably like a moving cat screen, to be honest with you. Okongwu sees it. [51:39] Buss ass across the court to get to Brunson, stalls out the whole possession, basically saves the game with situational awareness. And Akong was having a great series. This was an awesome game for me. Yeah, I agree. [51:51] I'm a mild stockholder. I don't have a huge position, but I have bought some Okongwu stock over the years. Kaminga, [51:58] which listen, I don't think there's a lot of teams he makes sense for, but he makes sense on this team. Clearly. It's like seeing somebody like crime one-on-one, [52:08] And, you know, just seeing a couple of the actors that movie, like, all right, for this movie, that's fine. Halle Berry. Great. [52:16] But they have this New Orleans pick too. [52:19] Yeah. [52:19] And they actually, it's the better of that pick or Milwaukee. So they have a couple of chances getting the top four. So I asked, remember, like, [52:28] Is this the best time to be a Hawks fan since 1988? [52:32] which was the year that Dominique's peak, Doc Rivers, Antoine Carr, Cliff Lamingston, they take the Celtics to seven. Dominique and Bird have the amazing duel. Dominique's one of the best players in the league. [52:45] And since then, the only other peaks for them, I mean, they were pretty good in that they had a couple of 90s where they had like 50 win teams that were fine.

[52:52] They had that 2015 season with Horford and all those dudes. Yeah. [52:58] The joint players of the week and Mike Budenholzer. Did they win 60 that year? They won 60. They got swept in the Eastern Finals. And then 21, they made the Eastern Finals. They had that weird Sixers series win when Ben Simmons' career ended and Trey Young made a couple plays. Sure, yeah. And they made the Eastern Finals. Nobody really took them seriously. [53:18] But I think the combo of them playing well but [53:21] The fact that they actually have a foundation, [53:24] Um, [53:25] They have the best foundation I think they've had in a long time. I honestly think since the 80s. Because when you throw in that New Orleans pick and how good this draft is, this is just going to be a really good team for a while. [53:35] I suspect so, but we also said the same thing after that 2021 run. Because it was Trey, it was DeAndre Hunter, it was Kevin Herter. It was a lot of guys who were on the come-up who now, with the benefit of hindsight, we know didn't really pan out. We got fooled by Trey Young a little bit. Well, we also got fooled by the Sixers and Ben Simmons. That's true. [53:54] Yeah, you look back and that was definitely one of those, the Will Got Pulled Over Our Eyes series. Oh, yeah. But this does not feel that way. No. [54:03] Now, this feels like a... [54:05] I know what they are. [54:07] I think they have a real identity. I think in the draft, they can really add somebody who could be special. And if they bring Kaminga and CJ back, [54:15] had reasonable deals. Like, [54:17] There's something here. All right, so that's the positive version of... [54:21] We're going to take a break.

[54:24] And then we're going to bring Sean Fentasy for the next heart attack section of this. [54:28] This episode is brought to you by Whole Foods Market. [54:31] Spring is here, so celebrate it with fresh, juicy, seasonal produce and some very tasty limited time flavors. [54:38] New Whole Foods Market Peach Apricot Rose Italian Soda. [54:42] Perfect for a picnic or brunch, as is their trending mango yuzu chantilly cake. [54:48] But if you're on the go, new 365 strawberry pretzels make a great sweet snack. That sounds delicious. Get savings with yellow sales signs storewide and everyday low prices on 365 brand items. Enjoy the fresh flavors of spring. Save at Whole Foods Market. [55:08] Somewhere out there is a Chevy truck. And the person who drives it, well, that's a Chevy person. You probably know one. Your buddy. Your sister. Ones who always show up. They're the first to rise, the last to leave. They always have that little extra something. And maybe you've got it too. Chevrolet. Together let's drive. Visit chevy.com slash trucks to explore the lineup. [55:36] All right, I was thinking about this guy today. There was a moment. [55:39] on the double TVs where the Jets were on the clock at 16, right as... [55:44] the Knicks were trying to close out the Hawks with 20 seconds left. And I was like, [55:49] Because Sean was supposed to come on tonight. And I was like, it's possible Sean might have an aneurysm right now. You forgot about one thing. What did I forget?

[55:56] While that was happening, [55:58] the Mets were winning seven to three and they've been in the midst of this terrible tailspin. [56:05] And the bases were loaded. [56:07] And they pulled the pitcher and they brought in a reliever. [56:11] to pitch to the bases loaded. So the bases were loaded in a 7-3 game in the eighth inning. The Knicks... [56:17] were down by one point with seven seconds to go. And the Jets pick came in. This happened simultaneously. [56:23] Unbelievable. Sports is the best. Today was just incredible with the sports that was happening. But do you know what happened? Do you guys know what? I mean, well, you took a tight end, even though you took a tight end at number 42 last year. And that was by far the best thing that had happened in that moment because the Mets gave up a grand slam to tie the game and blow the lead. And the Knicks lost when their best player fumbled the ball into the backcourt in the final seven seconds. So that was one of the more convulsive 35 seconds in sports rooting history [56:53] I do feel like this pod is Bill's euphoria and Sean is the Sidney Sweeney at this moment. Like you brought him in just to cry. I think it's a little gratuitous. I have Sean dressed naked like a catcher. [57:05] No, we agreed today, win or lose. And I genuinely thought the Knicks were going to win today. [57:10] I thought it had all the classic whatever, but yeah. All right. So where do you want to start, Sean? You're down 2-1 in the series. [57:19] You have... [57:20] The Celtics waiting in round two, hopefully. Maybe not. Maybe Embiid comes back. Who knows? Might do. We'll see about that. We will see about that. Cleveland looked like hot garbage then in Toronto. The seas have parted for the Knicks in the East, and then you're down 2-1 somehow.

[57:34] I don't feel good about the series and I don't feel good about the team and I haven't for... [57:40] roughly the last two and a half months of the season. And if you watch them play the Hawks in March, [57:45] game that they won but they seemed severely unprepared for and CJ McCollum also went off in that game. [57:51] And they didn't have an answer for him. And so, yeah, I'm already kind of spinning my wheels on, I guess they're going to have to blow this up. And they've also probably made a mistake with Mike Brown, but I'm a catastrophist. So, you know, maybe things will be fine. It's foolish, I think, to lose faith in Jalen Brunson. He has proven... [58:10] that he is worthy of a little bit more faith than what I'm usually willing to grant. But this is two games in a row where... [58:17] Maybe you guys talked about this, but this game is sort of the inverse, where they were in control for most of Game 2, and then they really spit the bit in the fourth quarter, and then they played so terrifically well in the fourth quarter of this game, and OG Ananobi has my heart forever. I just love them so much. [58:33] And they just kind of lost it in the final moments. I thought the defensive alignment in the final possession against the Hawks was super weird going so small. And then they gave up an eight footer because they went so small. [58:46] And then... [58:47] Brunson just lost the ball. I thought the Hawks double teaming him there and just kind of moving away from Hart. Why Hart was even on the floor offensively in that final possession is something you can debate. And I didn't think was smart. So, yeah, I don't know. I feel like shit. I always feel like shit about sports. You know, what am I supposed to do, man?

[59:04] You had three first rounders today. You did that at least. That was cool. Yeah, I'm actually kind of into that. We can talk about that if you want. Rob, do you have the Catastrophist on 4K Blu-ray? [59:14] Italian film, 1964. [59:17] Features are unbelievable, honestly. Great doc footage. Can we talk about Mikael Bridges and this becoming one of the weirdest stories in the NBA? I think we have to talk about Mikael Bridges. He had zero points in the second half of Game 2, and he had zero points... [59:33] In game three, it's zero. [59:35] and was basically benched for the entire fourth quarter for McBride. And it's not like McBride was shutting anybody down. [59:44] Um, what, [59:45] Rob, what has happened to Mikael Bridges? I would say that this was a weird occurrence if it hadn't been happening for like a month straight now on and off. Like he's had so many of these games where you would have to work really hard to have less of an impact on the flow of basketball than Mikael Bridges did in this game. Like completely transparent. He hasn't always been the defender he's been hyped up to be for the Knicks, but this was an especially glaring case of that. I thought Deuce was like easily outplaying him. [1:00:15] out some of those minutes, but... [1:00:17] They need something like just desperately, literally any sign of life from that spot. [1:00:22] I would have thought he was, I thought him and OG would have been so important in this series against the Hawks wings. That's the weirdest thing. Like if there was a series for him, this would be one of the series, I would think. But OG lived up. And I would say Josh Hart lived up, right? How much of the Knicks play in this game resorted to flounder your way through a possession and then get bailed out at the last possible moment by either OG or Josh Hart, or I guess like a desperate Deuce McBride three. Like those were the only options.

[1:00:48] Yeah, OG had two... [1:00:50] absolutely ludicrous shot buzzer, shot clock buzzer saving heaves that went in. That I think if either of them don't go in, [1:00:58] were probably not even in the final minute in a close game. It really felt like they swung momentum. [1:01:03] I think fans would probably feel like the Knicks are even more out of this series than it feels like right now. Because this is a game that maybe kind of got away from them, but they were getting beat. [1:01:12] Pretty much. I mean, they were done at 18 at one point. So it's one of those things where it's usually one of the wings that comes up short when they don't perform well. And sometimes it's Hart and sometimes it's OG. And more recently, especially this season, it seems like Mikhail has just still not been able to figure out. [1:01:30] What his role is... [1:01:32] how he makes sense. He just kind of stands in the corner a lot of the time and waits for someone to maybe pass him the ball. And I think fans feel like this was an ill-conceived trade from the moment it happened. And now that we're multi-years into it and he's already been... [1:01:46] given a new contract. I mean, he's making a lot of money to be scoring zero points in six straight quarters in the playoffs. It's kind of depressing. [1:01:55] It's kind of how I feel about them locking down Miami Vice 1985, but with Austin Butler as Sonny Crockett. [1:02:02] Like they just kind of shot, they had a great idea and just shot their wad without really thinking about it. Has it been confirmed that? [1:02:09] that he's playing Sonny and not Tubbs, because I think the move... [1:02:13] is to race swap. [1:02:16] Is to make MDJ sunny. Wow. Oh, my God. What do you think?

[1:02:22] That broke my brain. [1:02:25] Unbelievable. I mean, MBJ has sunny quality. That makes way more sense. So why not do it? [1:02:31] Mm. [1:02:32] That's a great idea. [1:02:33] Wow. That's why you launched a new newsletter this week about movies, because you have great ideas like that. I love movies. You really love those movies. [1:02:41] Um, [1:02:42] So Bridges... [1:02:44] is [1:02:45] Is this salvageable? [1:02:48] What is this? I think the problem is not just bridges. It's that to also... [1:02:54] catastrophize a little bit this is a knicks team that has felt like they are one bad day away all season from never speaking to each other ever again and maybe that is a little bit of projection on our part maybe that's a little body language doctoring here and there but i don't know they just don't feel connected in terms of the way that they play and you can tell that when they really do run into walls guys like bridges feel completely iced out they don't know how to contribute sean i think you absolutely nailed it that he's just kind of like idling off to the side [1:03:24] solution to everything else that ails them. And it's just, he's not really a participant in it at all. [1:03:28] I'll tell you the body language doctor, my front desk was... [1:03:33] Multiple calls today during the game. Multiple texts. [1:03:37] Wondering if I was noticing what was happening. The only person who seemed remotely happy to be there was Jose Alvarado, who was like, guys, I'll buy in. I'll be the cheerleader bench guy and try to give everybody some good energy. They would cut to the Knicks bench after a big play is...

[1:03:53] And you can just kind of tell when a team's not that connected. My bigger thing is... [1:03:57] If you go neck by neck, [1:04:00] Who feels like they're totally happy with how everything's going? [1:04:03] It's probably just Brunson and OG would be the, and maybe Miles McBride. [1:04:08] I don't know. What do you think, Sean? Even OG at times, you can kind of see him being like, shouldn't this be my team? [1:04:16] I'd feel that from him at times where he's feeling there was a moment in the fourth quarter where Brunson brought the ball up and was doubled. And OG set a high screen and Brunson went past the screen. And it didn't seem like he was going to pass the ball when the double came back to him. And then he did pass it to OG and OG went to the basket and he got fouled. [1:04:38] and almost say to him, like, more of that. Like, you can pass me the ball back. And I think that's really interesting, just because he's obviously, if he's a number one, it's not a very good team, but he's a really interesting number two, and on this team he's number three. And the name that we haven't said is Carl Anthony Towns, who is, like, the enigma of enigmas, and I thought was, like, at times brilliant defensively in this game. Really good defensively. Yes. And impossible to figure out offensively. Like, I just don't know what to expect from him. [1:05:08] Yeah. [1:05:08] I don't know what you do with Bridges. [1:05:11] you can't take heart off the team because he's the heart and soul of it. And he's Brunson's boy. But also there are times when he's on the floor and you're like, [1:05:18] this isn't really... [1:05:20] a rotation player and a functioning offense. Hmm. [1:05:22] And so they're just a series of awkwardly fitting parts and have been that for two and a half years. And yet this is the best Knicks team since like 1998.

[1:05:34] It's just a weird situation. Well, and then also it's a team that if you played Boston in a series, you would have a ton of confidence as dysfunctional as the Knicks of bed. And Hart was the best guy on the team in game two. [1:05:46] and was pretty indispensable today, but I agree with you. It never adds up. What is your Josh Hart take, Mahoney, just in general? [1:05:54] I have a hard time talking myself into him holistically for exactly this reason. It's like when he's great, everything he does is super loud and incredibly impressive and feels completely indispensable. And then when he's anything less than great, his flaws really drag an offense and completely devolve its flow. And I think all of these things are connected, right? When Jalen Brunson gets a little bit ball hoggy, some of it's because maybe a defense isn't guarding Josh Hart very much, and he's having to over-dribble to get where he wants to go. [1:06:24] really good defensively in a game like this, but maybe the most complicated star in the entire league, if you just wanted to crank up how much he gets the ball, like he'll just commit four offensive fouls or he'll have heinous turnover. So it's like you have to work around all of these different things, hard included to make the Knicks go. [1:06:42] And sometimes you just run into walls all game long like they seem to in this one. [1:06:47] Sean, [1:06:49] Do you like this next team? [1:06:51] Thank you. [1:06:52] Yeah. [1:06:53] I mean, I love Jalen Brunson, you know, like I just I think he's really special and I want him to be great. I want him to be a forever Nick and I want him to reach the place that I think he deserves.

[1:07:05] to be and [1:07:08] I didn't really get the cat trade and I didn't get the bridges trade and I [1:07:13] It has kind of worked insofar as they just win 50 games every year now, which, you know, as recently as five years ago, seemed impossible. So, yeah, [1:07:22] I can't. It's not like I dislike them. [1:07:24] I really like them. And yet, like I told you the other night, I wasn't like, I have to see every single second of this game. Because I feel like every game is kind of the same. And even in the playoffs, they're down 10, they rally back. Yeah. And so that's a different relationship to the team that I had even a few years ago before the Cat Bridges era when Tibbs was trying to grind. [1:07:45] Derrick Rose and turn him into 2014 Derrick Rose. [1:07:53] So I don't know if I love them. I love Bronson. It's hard to not think about Giannis right now and what this could have been. And [1:08:00] If they had just pushed a little bit harder. Yeah. You know, so I'm really torn. I still think there's a good chance that they win this series, even though they're down 2-1. Yes. And I agree with what you said, Bill, I think against Boston. [1:08:11] We've seen it once before, and we match up well with the Wings and a couple of really bad three-point shooting games from the Celtics. And we could be back in the Eastern Conference Finals, and anything can happen after that. But... [1:08:23] Um, tonight sucked. [1:08:24] Yeah, it's a weird basketball thing because I think Minnesota has it against Denver, too. [1:08:28] The Knicks have it against the Celtics. These certain matchups were... [1:08:32] you can tell the team's like, we really like playing this team.

[1:08:35] This is just a good one for us. You know, and this will happen in football all the time where the right football team plays the right football team and they're just. [1:08:42] They're feeling good the whole time. I think there's a crazy what if with this Knicks team that probably doesn't get discussed enough. And I'm not just saying this. So Sean dips his head in a vat of acid. Are you sure you're not? [1:08:55] The Halliburton shot, I really think, is a sliding doors for this Knicks era because I just think they'd probably win that series. I think that was such a... [1:09:05] bizarre basketball event. That's the weirdest collapse. And that shot going up 30 feet and coming down and going in. And then the Knicks almost winning an OT. Just that whole game. I just feel like if we play that game 30 times, the Knicks probably win 29 of them. [1:09:20] And, um... [1:09:22] And maybe they make the finals... [1:09:25] last year instead of the Pacers. And then this is, you're just thinking about this and talking about it completely differently. It was like, well, we were in the finals last year. [1:09:32] Like there's some sort of validation of what happened. But that Haliburton shot, [1:09:37] And that game in general just flipped it. So now like if you lose to the Hawks in round one, this all feels like a complete failure. [1:09:44] But if that shot misses, it's not. [1:09:47] It's a weird point, but I do think it's a point. [1:09:49] So how much does it, how different is it, for example, from when... [1:09:54] The first subway, the subway series when the Mets play the Yankees and they just got dominated and they made it to the World Series. And like, this is great, but they got kind of embarrassed on it. [1:10:02] on the big stage. Likewise, when the Knicks went to the finals and faced the Spurs, and they just kind of got bullied, and they shouldn't have been there. Thanks for bringing up the Patriots against the Seahawks. Appreciate that.

[1:10:12] Yeah. Would you guys draft to tackle? Why would you need to tackle? [1:10:17] I thought you had black. Oh, okay. Interesting. You saw the Super Bowl. I did. I did. I watched the whole Super Bowl. Yeah, I know you did. I really enjoyed it. [1:10:27] I think it would be one of those things where if that Knicks team last year had gone to the finals, they would have just gotten their doors kicked in by OKC, and we would have been like, all right, cool, they made it to the finals, but they never really materially had a chance to win. The same way that I think this season, no one's like, well, the Knicks do have a chance to win. They don't have a chance to win the finals. They're not going to beat whoever's in the Western Conference. So... [1:10:46] It's just a little bit hard to feel like that game in particular radically changed the fortunes and future of the franchise. That's fair. But it doesn't mean that that series was not any less painful. And the one thing that on all my Knicks chains today, a lot of like, this is the Pacers all over again, Pacers all over again. Oh, boy. It's like bad matchup. [1:11:05] We don't have an answer for this particular player. And a couple things are not going our way. A lot of sloppiness. The head coach seems to have misunderstood the assignment in this matchup. Like a lot of similar kinds of vibes. [1:11:17] And this is the first round and not the second round. But you know what? They were in this position last year with the Pistons and they prevailed. So we'll see what happens. [1:11:23] Well, even down to the second half of the Hawks season being such a resurgent thing, just like the Pacers were. I think a lot of opponents are still trying to get a feel for what exactly the Hawks are. I don't blame the Knicks for being caught a little bit off guard. I wasn't expecting C.J. McCollum to turn into Jesus Christ, but he just has. And now he could do no wrong, and this is the world we live in.

[1:11:44] Sean, will you stick around for a couple other small basketball conversations? [1:11:48] I will, but you must be feeling great as a longtime CJ guy. I know CJ was one of your boys back in the day, Bill. I always really liked him. I really thought... [1:11:55] Houston, it's just so funny that Houston didn't get him and needs him so desperately in this Lakers series. They just have to be like, what the hell? Can we talk about OKC? [1:12:05] Absolutely. [1:12:07] I really feel like, [1:12:09] And it's internet driven and social media doesn't mean everything. But I just, in discourse I have with people in my life, like everybody's just like, fuck this. Like they're just tired of... [1:12:18] the style and some of it's not fair, but it's really risen to villain level. And I was wondering, [1:12:26] They flop and they foul bait enough that – do we just give them the nickname Oklahoma City FC? [1:12:32] Because they're like a soccer team. Does that work for you guys? You kind of have to walk your way there. I think we need something a little more straightforward. If we had a Premier League team in the NBA, it would be Oklahoma City. Yeah. Oklahoma City FC. Yeah. [1:12:46] Atletico Thunder. I'd just want to workshop some sort of soccer thing with them. But Rob, how fair is... [1:12:52] the hatred of the tricks that OKC pulls. Because the bottom line is it works. And that's the whole point of, you know, you're trying to win, you're doing whatever you can. It does work. Some of it is, I think, quite earned. Like, [1:13:03] Shea does exaggerate a lot of contact. I think that what frustrates a lot of people is just the different thresholds, right? Of you can't touch Shea, but they're allowed to just swarm and hack defensively and be ultra aggressive. To me, that feels consistent with everything we've ever seen in modern NBA history, which is once you get a reputation for being good at something, the refs will mostly just assume that you're doing that great thing again. Like if you look at the players who get away with the most travels...

[1:13:29] It's all the guys with amazing footwork because you just think, oh, they pulled it off. Oh, they kept their pivot. I think the Thunder came by a lot of this stuff, honestly, in terms of how physically they play defensively. But they do get an incredible benefit of the doubt. [1:13:41] And then some of it's just not really their fault. Like it's not their fault that Devin Booker got called for one of the worst technical fouls I have ever seen in an NBA game. Like that's not really a Thunder issue so much as it's like Thunder adjacent. [1:13:53] Sean, I know you have a take and you've been known to just irrationally hate random things. [1:13:58] I'm imagining a Thunder Celtics finals and just what it, speaking of catastrophes, I mean, that would be, [1:14:04] A global catastrophe and a very complicated NBA season, I will say in the perception of the league. Who's excited for that bill? [1:14:11] who's pumped besides you, obviously like who's, who's like, [1:14:14] Thunder Celtics. I'd love to watch that for seven consecutive games. [1:14:20] I think the Spurs getting to the finals would be the win for the league. I agree. I'll be interested to see. I mean, obviously the Lakers getting in would be their wet dream, but I think the Spurs making it all the way would be what they would want. [1:14:33] would be my guess. [1:14:34] Spurs anyone would be the ideal finals. Sure. [1:14:38] Joker going for a second one would be more fun than OKC trying to go back to back. [1:14:44] And the Celtics thing, look, if you don't love sports movies and Jason Tatum coming back from his darkest hour and rising from the ashes and coming back, then I don't know what to tell you. [1:14:54] You don't like sports movies. [1:14:56] You didn't like Christy with Sidney Sweeney, obviously.

[1:15:00] I could have been better, I think, that movie. Just like I think the finals could be better if it were, I don't know. [1:15:06] Detroit, San Antonio. That would be interesting, right? Nick San Antonio would be magic. I feel like y'all are selling the Thunder a little bit short as an entertainment product. I get that they are despised because of some of their tactics, but like... [1:15:18] Their defense is very fun to watch in a like watching a cheetah chase down a gazelle in the open range kind of way. Like I do. I do like the state of nature that they create. [1:15:28] I like watching the Thunder as well. I hate the foul stuff, but they're not the only team that does it. [1:15:33] But I feel the same way, Rob. I think they're [1:15:36] Actually, the problem with them is they're up 20 in the second quarter of a lot of these games. You're like, all right. [1:15:42] That sucks. [1:15:43] Don't you think it would become... [1:15:45] A pretty significant national talking point, though, if somehow miraculously the Knicks got to the finals and faced the Thunder and then two chief foul baiters in the league. [1:15:55] We're toe to toe. I mean, how many pods could you do about that particular issue? Because, you know, Brunson got love him. [1:16:02] He has his ways, right? He does. [1:16:05] The people who don't watch the NBA regularly, who just tune in for the finals, would think their broadcast is flickering, buffering with all the pump fake jab steps, like pivot through the Jalen Brunson and Shea are trying to do. Lakers-Rockets. Rockets are down 0-2. [1:16:21] Austin Reeves coming back. [1:16:24] Unbelievable. I think this is one of the most bizarre series that we've had in a while. [1:16:30] The Rockets...

[1:16:31] are down 0-2 to a team that basically just ran amok for the first half yesterday with Luke Kennard and Marcus Smart and 41-year-old LeBron, and then held on for dear life in the second half. [1:16:43] And, uh, [1:16:44] Sean, what... [1:16:47] Just as somebody that just flicks the stuff on. [1:16:50] What's more fun for you, the demise of the Rockets or 41-year-old LeBron carrying the Lakers without Luka? You know who Katie reminds me of recently is Kanye West. Those are two guys in 2012. I was like, these guys are never going to lose. These guys are unbelievable. They're so naturally gifted. They're on a collision course with destiny, and they will be great forever. And now, is it 0-7 in his last seven playoff games, Kevin Durant is? [1:17:20] from Los Angeles. Yeah. [1:17:22] Just weird. And, you know, Kanye, we can let's not talk about that. [1:17:26] So, yeah, I think it's unfortunate. I loved watching Kevin Durant play. He broke my heart when he didn't come to New York. [1:17:33] And these are just desserts. [1:17:35] 37 years old. He was in the 2007 draft and probably shouldn't be the guy that's handling the ball for 37 minutes a game in the playoffs. [1:17:44] What do you think Eman's biggest mistake was? Because he's taken a pretty big beating, Rob. It's a pretty big list. I would say spending the last several months not preparing the team to function whatsoever on offense. These are the problems right now, but this is the same team that if you turn them on two months ago, it'd be like, why don't they know how to play out of a double team for Kevin Durant? And here it is all coming home to roost when he's the only guy who can

[1:18:14] and you need him to be a bigger part of your team, maybe you should have invested more in his actual on-court development at the incremental stages of the season. It's like, there's all these long game visions of who the Rockets could have been, and it all got traded out for like, [1:18:28] Ime Odoka puffing out his chest and wanting to play like grinders every night of the regular season. I just think the Rockets are so much worse for it. Yeah, I agree. [1:18:36] That's why you have the [redacted address] too long. [1:18:40] But one of the benefits is you can keep throwing Reed Shepard out there and trying to get him experience for a series like this. Yeah. [1:18:47] The Lou Canard thing's pretty interesting, though, because I think it's somebody we've always, I think all of us have liked and have seen the ceiling for. [1:18:54] And it just never happened. And he would just bounce around from team to team. And then somehow J.J. Redick has... [1:19:00] unlocked him. And I think JJ's been one of the stars of the playoffs. Agreed. Beating the Rockets two games in a row without your two best guys is nuts. Not that surprising that JJ knows what to do with Luke Kennard. I mean, they have a somewhat similar profile as players. Getting DeAndre to have a pulse is way up there, but [1:19:18] I don't know. I was watching them in game two as ugly as it is. They still have bad shooters. [1:19:23] You know, they... [1:19:25] I at least understood what they were doing. It wasn't always going to be successful, but there was a plan in place. Whereas you watch the Rockets, you're like, I don't understand anything that you guys are doing. When Fred VanVleet went down, do you think they should have just tried to trade for CJ Ben in the offseason? Yeah, that was the name that got mentioned. [1:19:44] I think part of the problem was Van Vliet would have had to be in the trade.

[1:19:48] Right? [1:19:49] Yeah, with that kind of salary. Well, I think there probably would have been other constructions, but it would have cost you maybe Atari Eason, Dorian Finney-Smith, who they thought was going to be an important part of their team, like maybe some guys like that. [1:20:00] Well, CJ made, I think, 30, 30-something, and VanVleet was at 25. [1:20:06] So they could have tried to, and they had all these extra picks, like it would have been [1:20:10] Pretty easy. I didn't understand why they didn't get anybody. Why don't they have the Sunmu? It's not like they don't have picks. Great question. They had a bunch of things they could have given up. It's almost like they didn't think they were going to really be competitive or they were saving themselves for... [1:20:24] Next year, I didn't really understand it. But you have Kevin Durant at his age. Like, this, again, this is the year. Like, you're supposed to be pushing forward once he's a member of your team and not just accepting that, oh, we got a bad break. Let's let Fred rehab and we're going to see where we are next year. Like, Kevin Durant might not be a borderline 50-40-90 guy on this kind of production next year. Like, at some point, the bottom will fall out. [1:20:47] How would you rate the playoffs so far, Rob? [1:20:49] i think quite good for the first round like an a minus uh like b yeah b plus a minus zone like i think if if this nuggets wolves game tonight had really kicked off then maybe we'd be headed into a pretty special area but the lakers rockets being like a complete flip on what i thought it would be a lot of split series that are hotly contested i mean we got two one-point games in terms of the hawks knicks alone sorry sean but like there's just a lot on the board here that's

[1:21:19] worries that are just kind of catching us all off guard. This is kind of what we want. [1:21:23] The streaming thing's been a little weird. Hmm. [1:21:25] Don't like it. [1:21:27] It's just weird to not be able to flip channels around. But man, I know this is going to be what the future is of all this stuff. But tonight, because I had three specific sporting events that I was paying close attention to, I had... [1:21:40] A TV on, a laptop open, and my phone. [1:21:44] going with all three. And I don't know if I've ever done that before. We don't all multi-view quad box like you, Bill. And it was honestly extremely confusing to my little daughter. She was like, which one of these am I supposed to be paying attention to? And I was like, none of them. Please don't be close to me right now. This is dangerous. Please leave. This episode is brought to you by Boris Head. What if we told you the taste of deep fried turkey is now available at your local deli? Well, Boris Head just did that. [1:22:14] Indulgent taste, that usually means planning your whole day around it. [1:22:17] Presenting the Friars Turkey Breast only from Boar's Head. [1:22:21] Backyard tradition now available behind the counter. [1:22:24] Visit your local deli today. Discover the craftsmanship behind every bite. Boar's Head, committed to craft since 1905. [1:22:33] This episode is brought to you by Fox One. Watch all 104 matches of the FIFA World Cup live in 4K for just $19.99 a month with three days free. Build your own multi-view, choose up to three streams, and follow player spotlights. Stay on top of every moment with live stats, highlights, and instant replays. The FIFA World Cup, streaming live on Fox One, offers a subject to change. See fox.com for complete terms and conditions.

[1:23:03] Rob, are you excited for Sean's new newsletter? Of course. Where he talks about movies? Can I get a comp subscription or do I have to pay for this thing? What's going on? The answer is yes. Okay. And then I'm very excited about it. Sean, I paid right away because I'm wealthy and because I wanted you to have my money for it. Thanks, Bill. I didn't ask you for a comp. As you know, I'm also doing this with Spotify, so I'm not totally sure how that financial arrangement works. I just wanted to throw my money into the ring. Thank you so much. It was great to get it. [1:23:32] You did like 4,000 words today. Your fingers still work. I was jealous. I did. I might have gotten a little over the top in the first piece. But yeah, it's really fun. Rob, as you know, and Bill, as you used to know, and we're going to get you out of retirement and doing a newsletter at some point. It's just very... We will? Yeah, we will. We will. I will. It's rewarding to write. It's a different kind of rewarding than doing a show and... [1:23:55] I'm enjoying it so far. It is hard. [1:23:57] It is actually hard to sit down and focus for several consecutive hours and write something, even if it's something as silly as what I've been writing about movies. So I'm excited to be doing it. I am legitimately blown away by how cool and nice people are about this. And I'm excited to do more. Next one won't be 4,000 words. But I don't know. What do you want to see me write about? What movies are you interested in, Bill? First of all, I might want to have a paragraph... [1:24:23] every once in a while. Um, [1:24:26] I haven't. [1:24:27] I don't know if I told you about these lifetime movies I've been watching on Netflix. You did. Yeah. Yeah, I did. I did tell you about those gas lit by my husband, gas lit by my husband. Um,

[1:24:38] Nobody Dumps My Daughter was one I saw this week. [1:24:43] Netflix has finally figured out Lifetime and Netflix are the marriage everybody needs, Rob. [1:24:48] Just have a really good title and somebody with a slightly sinister face in the thumbnail, and people are going to click on it. Two of the top 10 right now. The other one was Husband, Father, Killer. [1:24:58] There's another good one, but this is the kind of stuff I want to watch late at night when I'm falling asleep. I can't watch Babylon at 1130 at night, Sean. First of all, yes, you can. Yeah, you absolutely can do that. I do it on the regular. I don't want to fall asleep to Babylon. Somebody out there is like staring at a spreadsheet of your browsing algorithmic information being like, we got him again. Gaslit by my husband. You got America. You're in the top 10. You're in the top 10. [1:25:23] Is there not a 10-episode string of recaps of Nobody Dumps My Daughter on the Prestige TV podcast, Rob? Did I miss that? It's actually coming in June. You know, we really wanted to save it for the media's part of the calendar. Really bring people in and be one of our tent poles. I mean, this is what the people want. [1:25:39] I used to be more involved with the planning and ideation of Prestige TV. And then I let Joanne and Rob kind of sent them on their raft and push them in the ocean. [1:25:48] And it's worked out 95% of the time, but then occasionally there will be the three episodes on beef where I'm like, we probably could have wrapped this up in 40 minutes. I don't know if you saw it. Did you finish beef, Rob? I did. That's a prestige product. You're telling me an Oscar Isaac, Carey Mulligan, Kaylee Spaney, Charles Melton show. I think we could have ripped through it. Oh, no, absolutely not. I can't say I finished beef.

[1:26:14] There's got to be one of those, they have those ratings at the end where it's thumbs up, thumbs down. I wish there were like more options. [1:26:22] What do you want? This kept my interest for a few hours, but ultimately I'm not sure it was worth my time. Yeah, check it out halfway through episode three. That's me on most TV shows. I hung on as long as I could. [1:26:34] Yeah, the one that we're not covering on Prestige that I've [1:26:38] I'm ashamed to admit I'm enjoying is imperfect women. [1:26:42] Oh, the Apple series. I don't even know what this show is. What is Imperfect Women? What is it about? It's actors. Apple's strategy is it's actors or actresses that you've heard of and liked. [1:26:54] but probably haven't really resonated with them in about four years. And now they're in a show where somebody dies in the first three minutes. Yeah. And then we go backwards to try to figure out who did it. [1:27:05] So in this one, it's Carrie Washington, Elizabeth Moss and Kate Mara. [1:27:09] Long time, long time Grantland Ringer All-Star. [1:27:12] Like Rudy Gobert. Like you go back and you look at her basketball reference and it's like, wow, she was a Grantland All-Star four straight years. We love Kate. Early 2010s. [1:27:21] Um, so it's the three of them and there's a murder mystery and you just kind of turn your brain off and go. [1:27:26] which I think is its own. That's not prestige TV. That's like another type of TV. [1:27:31] But beef was like a little too much work for me. There was a little too much going on. Too much work. Yeah. And it wasn't good enough for all the work was where I landed. [1:27:38] Bill, I actually wanted to pitch you on a show for Apple that is based on some of the IP we have here at The Ringer. It's called Mysterious Podcasters. And it's three actors that look a lot like you and Rob and Chris Ryan. And, you know, we can talk about who those actors should be based on your comps. But it's the three of you guys in the tile image huddled around a single microphone. And one of you is nudging the other out of the way and fighting for space. And it's like a dramedy.

[1:28:08] There are laughs in it, but also there's a real mystery at the center. One of you killed one of your former podcast partners, and we have to figure out who did it. Well, Greenwald dies. He's in the first scene. He's dead. And then it turns out at the end, Chris wanted to watch for himself, but nobody realized that for seven episodes. Yeah, Mysterious Podcaster is coming soon to Apple TV+. I really like that. It feels like a written by Jason Segel production. I feel like he could nail the tone of exactly what we're going for. [1:28:38] I'm not opposed to it. Let's get Jason on the phone. He used to ball as well. The key with these shows is the thumbnail and the title does 97% of the work. You really have to nail both. [1:28:53] Like beef is great. It's four letters. You could just put some sort of crazy thumbnail and you're ready to roll. [1:28:59] But I mean, so... [1:29:01] Sean, I deep dived, binged the pit. [1:29:05] Oh yeah, I heard you talking to Joe about it. Yeah, I did two straight seasons in about five days. [1:29:11] And now I just have a hole in my heart. [1:29:14] It's just gone. Well, they can fix that. You're just going to roll into the ER. They'll get you fixed up. I'm just waiting for Dr. Robbie just to figure out what happened with him. But it's so funny that they just unlocked this strategy of, [1:29:26] Hey, it's going to be a doctor series like everything else, except it's going to be every hour and it's going to be grosser than a network show. [1:29:33] My biggest challenge with The Pit is I did really enjoy when TV shows had 22 episodes in a season and it felt like we were spending a lot of time with these characters and building a relationship with them. I, like you, Bill, was a huge ER fan. I watched every episode of the first six or seven seasons. At this stage of my life,

[1:29:51] when they're like, yeah, there's going to be 18 episodes in this season. I'm like, nope. I won't be there. I'm like, good luck. Sounds like you guys have got an Emmy-winning product. Happy for Noah Wiley. But I just... [1:30:03] Can't find the time. I'm sorry. Look at all these Blu-rays. You say this, but when it comes time to do the Transformers Hall of Fame, you're like, yeah, let me just mainline these real quick. I don't even have to prepare for that. We can do it right here. Yeah, the irony of you saying that when you're doing a 1978 movie [1:30:19] Hall of Fame draft or movie draft draft. [1:30:22] And then you watch 20 movies from 1978 in the span of three days. But it doesn't have time for Dr. Robbie. [1:30:29] But that's like saying... [1:30:31] to [1:30:32] an architect's, [1:30:34] Why are you spending all that time drawing those blueprints? You know, like this is the raw materials. These are the brain gems that are necessary to make that blueprints. [1:30:44] that draft or that hall of fame you know the pit is like that's something you do in your free time and 18 of them no i'm good you're missing nurse dana though who's one of your favorite characters of all time who's who what's her story [1:30:56] She's just the one that sucks everyone in Who jumps in on the pit after one episode They're like I love Dana I don't know what is it about Dana Just a gruff real talking nurse running the place A woman in charge that appeals to a lot of people Pittsburgh accent [1:31:12] Goes out, has cigarettes outside the front door of the hospital. Just dart after dart after dart. Yeah, just smoke a dart. Sounds maybe more CR speed than mine. Oh, it is not just CR speed. It is CRs at fifth gear.

[1:31:27] CRs at an F1 course flying around. CR and I simultaneously were watching season one of Miami Vice, and he kind of floated a, why wouldn't we just recap season one of Miami Vice? [1:31:42] all-time one for us. [1:31:43] I don't think America wants it. I don't think we can get a sponsor for it. I don't know what feed it would go on. [1:31:51] But we did talk about it. [1:31:52] Maybe you see the news peg of the new movie. [1:31:55] Oh, I was just if you want me to host it on the newsletter, then that's an option. [1:31:59] Just to get everybody prepped for Miami Vice 85. There's video capabilities, you know? [1:32:04] On the newsletter? Yeah, sure. We could do like little 10-minute episodes? [1:32:08] Yeah, I mean, I'm not planning to do that because I'm already, this is my fourth podcast of today. But I... Is it really? It is really. It's just a bad coincidence. Fourth podcast? Yeah, I never usually... I never do that, but I'm promoting news that are also the meds are on fire. So I had to talk to Zach earlier this morning. The newsletter is called Projections. [1:32:30] Um, [1:32:31] You're also going to be on... [1:32:33] Not the upcoming Rewatchables because we did Ghostbusters, but you're on the one after. The next one. I'm pumped about it. Yeah, I'm really excited about the next one. Won't say what it is yet, but we're doing a bunch of comedies next month, Rob. Rob's come on the Rewatchables twice and had two of the hottest takes in the history of the show. They're very normal takes. He said Russell Crowe and Nice Guys dog-walked Gladiator for the Oscar. This was the last one. No, I said Joaquin dog-walked Russell Crowe and Gladiator. It's a very important distinction. Sorry.

[1:33:03] screwed that up. [1:33:04] Yeah. I, I'm very familiar with the Nirvana take. I believe that you should be sentenced to, [1:33:13] to prison and [1:33:15] spend the rest of your life there for that take. But it was really good podcasting. Thank you. I appreciate it. As long as it's white collar, as long as I can play a little pickup basketball, have a nice cafeteria lunch, I'm not opposed to some prison time. No, you're going under the prison in the gulag, and you'll be tortured every day. At least I'll be my authentic self, unlike all of the members of the grunge movement. That's... Really, how dare you? And wipe that smirk off your face right now. [1:33:45] I'm going to get violent here, Bill. I blew him. Sean and Chris and Yassi, I was saying how the whole replacements... [1:33:55] Now retroactively being on the same level as REM is one of the things that infuriates me the most about retroactively. [1:34:00] about what's happened with music in the last 35 years. And that devolved into basically a screaming match on text. But the important thing to know is I was right. [1:34:09] Okay. We'll note it. Rob, how are you going to follow that up though? Like now every time you're on the show, you have to come with some nuclear take and you spoke of men like Eddie Vedder and Chris Cornell being inauthentic. But now when you perform a take, we'll know. [1:34:26] You have reached beyond the pale. [1:34:29] I think I just can't go on the rewatchables again. I think I just got to take my bow...

[1:34:33] Exit through the fire escape. We're bringing you on for From Hell Month. You're not going to miss From Hell Month in June. It's five movies. Oh, wow. That does sound quite exciting. Yeah, From Hell. All right, Sean, good luck with projections. [1:34:45] Mahoney, can hear you on Prestige TV and watching there as well as Ringer NBA. Of course. How's the new guy, Kyle Mann? That's going all right? [1:34:54] Kyle's crushing it. You got energy? [1:34:56] New guy energy, a very particular energy from Kyle Mann, but I think he brings us a folksiness that we desperately need. That's coastal elites for sure. All right. Thanks for popping on. See you guys. [1:35:08] Thanks, Bill. Thanks, Bill. All right, that's it for the podcast. Thanks to Mahoney and Sean. Thanks to Gahal and Eduardo as well. Don't forget about the rewatchables, which went out Monday at Kindergarten Cop. Don't forget about Legata. Please check that out. New Ringer original series. And I am going to be back this weekend. [1:35:26] With Zach Lowe, we'll be coming on Netflix Live right after the last playoff basketball game, whatever it is. So whenever that game's been decided, if it's a 20-point blowout in the third quarter, we'll come on earlier. So enjoy the weekend. I know it's great on the East Coast right now. I wish I was back in Boston. But it's nice here in LA, too. Enjoy the weekend. See you on Sunday. [1:35:56] Feel it within the door. [1:36:01] We start.

[1:36:03] So I'm going to be right back. [1:36:07] 21 plus in president select states for Kansas in affiliation with Kansas Star Casino or 18 plus in president DC, Kentucky or Wyoming. Opt-in required. Rewards are non-withdrawable. Restrictions apply, including bonus and token expiration leg requirements and max wager amounts. See terms at sportsbook.fando.com. Game problem, call 1-800-GAMBLE or 1-800-MY-RESET. Call [redacted phone] or visit ccpg.org slash chat in Connecticut or mdgamblinghelp.org in Maryland. Hope is here. [1:36:37] line ma.org or call [redacted phone] for 24-7 support in Massachusetts or call 877-8-HOPE-NY or text HOPE-NY in New York for Louisiana. Call [redacted phone]. [1:36:52] Are you one of those media strategy people clicking through slides, scrolling spreadsheets? Yes? Good! This is for you. Because on Spotify, there's an audience that's different. Locked in. Loyal. Invested. They're called fans. Fans don't just listen to music. They feel seen by it, like it belongs to them. So when your brand shows up on Spotify, that's who you're talking to. And you're right next to artists like me, Lizzo. So, are you ready to talk to fans? Spotify Advertising. You're among fans.

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