Tillie Klimek: Mrs. Bluebeard of Chicago

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[01:47] This is Mabit. Hi, everybody. Here we are. How's it hanging? It's hump day. [01:54] everybody. [01:56] remember when that was like an office culture thing that there was like a commercial yeah that had a camel i think it was a man who turned into a camel i believe oh it was [02:06] I didn't know the dark history of that. I thought it was just a camel. I think the man became a camel. [02:12] Because he kept saying, I'm do... [02:15] No? [02:16] Deb is shaking her head, too. I don't know. I don't know about that. [02:23] I think it was just him being like, Mike, Mike, Mike, Mike, Mike. [02:25] Wow. Yeah, I think he just... Fuck. [02:29] I thought... We both were like, what? There's dark history behind this commercial? I didn't think it was dark history. I just thought it was like... I mean, a man becoming a camel. That's a bit. That's dark. It's a bit. It's dark, man. I don't want to be a camel. It's a dark bit, you know? Exactly. I thought. I shouldn't... No, you thought, I guess. I don't know. There's a lot that I thought that's not real. There's a lot that I think. There's a lot that I thought. I think. The thought that I thunk that I think. And I thunk. [02:56] Alright, so now that we figured that out, everybody. Yeah, I guess. He began the commercial as a camel. He began and ended as a camel. He did, yeah. We can get into what I do know. Oh, man. Which is this case. Which is this case. I do know about this case. Also, buy tickets to the Radio City Music Hall. [03:15] Show. Oh, honey. Do that. Honey. Just got to remind you, you know, Debbie's teaching us a tap. It's one night only. You're not going to want to miss that. You're not going to want to miss that. I'm telling you. Tipity tap, tap, tap. It's one night only, babes. Got merch. One night.

[03:29] only exclusive to the event do it i thought you're gonna say one night only again one you're just everything i said even all the way through the case you're like one night only only oh my god oh but yeah i had to get that in and now we can get to our case we're gonna everybody who gives the minute marker for when we shut the fuck up and start talking about the case this one was an easy one this one was quick it's right now this one's quick so we're talking about [03:59] Oh, excuse me. You do remember when we covered Mr. Bluebeard himself. Yeah, he was killing all his brides. He sure was. I bet you can guess what Tilly was doing. She was... [04:09] Killing all her men. Maybe. I feel. Well, here's the thing. We don't actually know much about Tilly Klimek's early life before she started killing all her men. Before she started the murdering. Yeah, with the murdering. That made her famous. But before all that, she was born... By the way, there's a lot of Polish pronunciations in this. I'm literally married to a Polish man who has a Polish last name, so I'm gonna do my best. And I did look all these up, but I'm not sure if I'm gonna slay. [04:39] I have complete faith in you. That's so nice. She says with a devilish grin. I have complete faith in you. I really do. I meant that. Thank you. That was real. Thank you. I appreciate it. She was born Otilia Gubjerk. Ooh. [04:55] I like it. I wish she could have seen the face. She's like, oh, I hope I did it. She was born in Poland in 1876, some time ago. And she immigrated to the U.S. with her parents, Michael and Michaelina Gryk, when she was about four years old. So she ended up being raised in an area of Chicago known as Little Poland, where obviously a lot of other Polish immigrants were living. And because of that, she really didn't have to learn English for a long time.

[05:25] learn English. Obviously, it's not her first language, so it wasn't super strong. Just keep that in mind for later. Imagine knowing several languages well enough to have a conversation. I wish that I was better than I am, because I'd like to be genuinely fluent in another language. I thought you meant just in general. I was like, can I talk to you? Can I just let something off my chest? I wish I was a better gal. I just wish I was better than I am. I was like, whoa. [05:55] laughter [05:58] I love it. And learn another language. And learn another, become bilingual. That's what we love. So in 1890, when she was just 14 years old, Tilly married 17-year-old Joseph... [06:11] Yeah. [06:25] Her first marriage is kind of mysterious. It's not as publicized as the ones that came next. And for whatever reason, it also lasted considerably longer than her following marriages. But the relationship did come to an end with Joseph's unexpected death in January of 1914. Here it is. The coroner said heart trouble. [06:46] Oh, but his death allowed Tilly to cash in on a $1,000 life insurance policy. Look at that. When she did that, she wasted no time finding a new husband. Now, at the time, his death didn't seem super suspicious. Chicago was a very fast paced environment and he was just kind of a day to day guy. So his death really didn't make it onto that many people's radar. He also worked in a dangerous and stressful industry. So it wasn't that crazy that he died from heart trouble.

[07:16] not unusual for Tilly to move on so quickly. She didn't have a job. She was a widow now with a child to care for. Yeah. So grief was a luxury that she could not afford for very long. Yeah, that is the that's the truth of the time. It is. [07:28] Now, in February of 1914, just one month after Joseph's death, Tilly married Joseph Ruskowski. But that marriage proved to be very short-lived. By May, he was dead. Oh. Yeah. January, February, March, April, May. Three months. Holy shit. Dead. And Tilly inherited his $1,200 in savings and $722 from an insurance policy. Altogether today, that would be like $63,000. Damn. Damn. [07:56] Good chunk of change. Now, just like she had with her first husband, Seth, she did not waste much time on grieving. And within a few months, she had started up a new relationship using some of her latest inheritance to fund a vacation to Milwaukee. Oh, such a luxurious place. Okay. Isn't that Cream City? It's that? I think that's Cream City. [08:17] Wow. Yeah, sports. You know, it actually fucked me up the first time I saw that on their basketball court. But I don't think it's always there. I think it was a special thing. It was just special. [08:29] I guess. It was a special moment for Cream City. She went to Cream City with her new boyfriend, and that's not a euphemism. Holy shit. [08:39] So it's pretty clear that her intention was to quickly win a marriage proposal from this man's. Yeah. But unfortunately... You bring him there. Yeah, bring your man's to Cream City. You're looking for a ring. Secure that marriage proposal. Looking for a rock. Now, unfortunately, though, when she raised the subject of marriage, he laughed at her proposal of marriage. Which is not nice. Very rude. And she was enraged. I would be. She said, take me seriously.

[09:09] causes, I fucking poisoned them. So don't mess with me. Whoa. Like, I don't think that's going to help your case. Has that helped? Getting a man to marry you? Has that worked with anyone? Getting a marriage proposal? Let us know. Yeah, write it. We won't submit you to the authorities. No, not at all. So she immediately realized that she had made a serious mistake in confessing to murder. Yeah. Not only was he now highly unlikely to marry her, but he was also likely to dial 911 and report an emergency. Yeah, about that. [09:36] So hoping to prevent the inevitable, Tilly threatened to report him to the authorities for violating the Mann Act, which was a 1910 U.S. law that criminalized the transportation of women across state lines for immoral purposes. Oh, I think they just call that sex trafficking now. Yeah. Yeah. Gaskowski, in response, told her if she did that, he would tell the authorities that she was a murderess. And like, you know what, let's go our separate ways. [10:06] they returned home to Chicago. [10:08] He died unexpectedly. [10:11] Sir, did you eat something that she served? Might have. Because that's wild work. He might have. That's wild work. Yeah. Holy shit. So after the death of Gaskowski, Tilly didn't head straight out to find a new man's this time. Instead, she just lived with a man known only by the last name of Myers. During their time together, she would usually introduce herself as Mrs. Myers, even though they were not officially married. And she seemed to just be living off the money from the inheritances and all the insurance policies of her old husband.

[10:41] neighbors did recall a man living with her for at least some amount of time until he just vanished at the end of 1918. Maybe it was Michael Myers. Maybe. [10:50] that's why he's pissed he peaced out yeah that's why he's mad he said i have a girl named laurie back home i gotta go maybe maybe so this period of living as mrs myers came to an end when michael left and in march of 1919 when tilly married her third husband frank kupchik but if the marriage was ever a happy one it did not last very long so by this time the money from the inheritances and the insurances had probably run out and that meant that tilly had to get her ass a job so she started [11:20] and her husband, her new husband. At the same time, neighbors started to notice that every day after her husband Frank went to work, another man that she only referred to as John would stop by the apartment to, quote, smooch Tilly on the porch. Oh, you don't say. She was side smooching. This is skindeloso. Yeah, bitch. Just stopping by for a smooch on the porch. Right after Frank leaves for work. Right on his porch. Damn, fucked up. So things carried on that way between Frank [11:50] And apparently John. Yeah. Yeah. For two years until one day in 1921, when Frank became seriously ill. Now to their neighbors, it seemed that his condition was dire, but Tilly was chilling. She did not seem alarmed in the slightest. It's a red flag. In fact, as far as they could tell, she almost seemed lighthearted about his illness. Wow. Years later during her trial, her landlady, Martha Wesselek, recalled one afternoon when Tilly, quote, came out in the yard with a piece

[12:20] all about a fine coffin for $30 that she was going to get for Frank. [12:24] holy shit can you imagine no she's just like [12:28] advertising to the townspeople like this is the coffin i'm gonna get this 30 dollar coffin not dead yet but he will be damn so vesselak was uh horrified by how cavalier that she was being about frank's very serious illness according to the landlady this was only one of many suspicions and callous statements made by tilly at the time other neighbors also recalled her knitting a hat for herself that she said she was going to wear to frank's funeral [12:53] She is planning for this. Like you plan for Coachella. Yeah. Like she's going to have the whole fit ready. Nice coffin. So place to stay. Yep. [13:03] Holy shit. Yeah. I can't stop saying holy shit. Holy shit. She just doesn't give a shit. Some people also remember that she would just casually talk about how Frank only had, quote, two inches to live. [13:15] That doesn't even make sense. Implying that he was going to be dead soon. I think it was... That metric of measurement sounds like it doesn't fit here. It doesn't. I think that might have been a language barrier thing. Oh, perhaps. So she was like, what, two seconds to live? I don't know. Yeah, who knows? I mean, but maybe she made up a new saying. Either way, not a lot of time to live. No, not a lot. So whether she was joking or not, it turned out that she was in fact correct about Frank's future. A few days later, on April 25th, 1921,

[13:45] with Frank's body on display for Mourners. Why is that hard to say? For Mourners. Tilly played upbeat dance music on a record player. Yeah. [13:53] Holy shit. [13:56] Holy shit. One night only. [14:00] one night only she said that's really fucked up one mourner recalled later that at one point during the funeral tillie reached into the coffin and grabbed frank's ear shouting you devil you [14:30] Fuck. [14:32] I just can't imagine being as fierce. I would be. Like, what do you do? What are you to do? What are you meant to do in this? I think you just leave. I think you leave your well-respects with Frank and you say you deserve better. Grab his ear and be like, you devil, you're dead. Like, that's crazy. It is. [14:59] It is, in fact. That's crazy work. Yeah, they were like, is she drunk? Holy shit. So the next day, after assaulting her husband's dead body, she collected $675, which would be like $11,000 today. Just about. From his life insurance policy, and she set out to find herself a new husband. Yeah, because like she said, you won't get up anymore. No. Like, my goodness, Tilly. I know. Poor Frank. So everybody who knew her to that point knew that she was a very brash woman with a, uh,

[15:28] unusual sense of humor, you could say. But even to those who knew her well, they had to admit that her attitude around Frank's death was suspicious and crass. Yeah. Yeah. To the more superstitious among them, too, the fact that she seemed to have the ability to predict her husband's death was evidence of strong psychic abilities. Oh, yeah. Let's call her a witch. They said she seems psychic. Or murderous. That's the thing. Others quietly gossiped about her potential involvement. Yeah. [15:58] Psychic could be homicidal. Could be psychic, could be a murderess. It's a real toss-up here. Yeah. Especially with the way she's acting. Real toss-up. Yeah. You know? Yeah. Crazy gal. So when it came to the neighborhood gossip, she provided more than enough material in the wake of Frank's death. When her previous relationships ended... [16:16] with the quote-unquote untimely deaths of her husbands. She waited at least a few weeks before looking for a new man to get together with. Oh, good. This time, she didn't actually even wait until the end of the funeral, but... [16:28] before cozying up to the recently widowed Joseph Klimek, who was also a friend of Frank's, and at the funeral. So this man was at the funeral where she grabbed Frank's ear in the coffin and was like, You devil, you're not getting up anymore! Yeah. And was playing like, oomph, oomph, oomph, oomph. And he's like... [16:48] Yeah. [16:49] This will be fun. Well, my goodness. That afternoon. My goodness, Joseph. I'm not sure what happened because that afternoon their interaction was said to be casual and short. So maybe he stopped in after all the madness. Maybe. He said because he recalled later she felt too bad to see people.

[17:06] Yeah. So maybe she had already left after causing that spectacle. They were like, somebody was like, we should get her out of here. It was like, you should go home. And Joseph was like, I don't know. He had to have seen her at some point. Because he was like, she felt too bad to see people. But she did allow herself to be pursued by him for a few weeks before agreeing to marry him. Wow. So they got to chat at the funeral. Then they were like, let's get married in a few weeks. Sounds great. [17:36] . [17:37] Everyone loves a good survival story, the kind where somebody faces the unexpected and still makes it through. But survival isn't always life or death. Sometimes it's about making it through a long day, a schedule change, or a period that shows up with zero warning. We've all been there, babies! Kotex is relaunching with a whole new lineup of pads and liners designed around unique period needs. You asked and they heard. Every Kotex pad is powered by Gravity Core technology, which pulls blood to the bottom of the pad, [18:07] residue on the surface. So you feel clean, dry, and protected. I appreciate that so deeply. In addition to their upgraded ultra-thin pads, they now offer Kotex Bamboo, which has an ultra-soft top layer made from 100% bamboo-derived viscose, and Kotex BioCare, which offers a pH protective layer that helps defend against odor and irritants. And from ultra-thin to bamboo to BioCare, you can choose the pad type that works best for you. I love how many options they have, because we're all

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[20:36] Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. [20:44] He later said that he married her for a nice home because she was a good cook and kept a clean space. At least there's that. Men are simple creatures. Yep. By the time they were married, he had already heard some of the rumors and gossip about her past with men, and just her in general, but he didn't care and he didn't believe any of it. He said, as soon as we married, she burned all the photographs of her husbands and her man friends, and she tore up all her letters. She had my picture on the mantle. That was all. [21:11] No more man friends. No more man friends. Just me on the mantle, babe. I'm your only man friend. One man friend for you, girl. Yeah. So he might have believed that Tilly had changed her ways and was committed to him since his picture was on the mantle and all. Yeah. But survey said that was a lie. Within a few months, Tilly was openly complaining about her marriage, especially to her cousin, Nellie Kulik. According to Nellie, when she suggested that Tilly get a divorce if she was so unhappy, Tilly said, no, I'll get rid of him some other way. [21:40] Just divorce him. You can just divorce him, but you won't get the life insurance in that case. Why the murder? Well, at the end of the year, Tilly learned that Joseph had a thousand dollar life insurance policy with the Catholic Order of Foresters. [21:53] I don't know if that means that they're like Catholic tree people. I was going to say that. You know what? They're known to have pretty solid life insurance policies, I think. Like oak. Yeah. [22:03] So she insisted that this was not enough money. And she said, you need to increase that and also make me the beneficiary. I'm your wife now. Of course.

[22:12] And she said it was also important because she was, in fact, psychic, like the townspeople had said. And she'd had a premonition that Joseph was going to die soon. And if he did, she didn't want to be poor with him being gone. Imagine your spouse saying that to you. Also, like, your new spouse. Yeah. And they're like... [22:31] You know, everybody thinks I'm psychic, and I did have a vision. You're going to die. Where you die. And I would like your money if that's the case. Like, what do you do? In the days that followed, she would just walk around their house telling him, you're pretty near dead now. Oh, my God. And then she'd say, didn't I tell you? You're not going to live long. Scary. Really? Scary. [23:01] that's where that came from yeah [23:04] But guess what? He was brave. He declined to add any more coverage to his shit. He said, I'm not dying in this house. And now he said, I don't think I'm going to die in this house. And he also made his son the beneficiary of the policy, which then caused Tilly to take out two life insurance policies on him and accident insurance all in his name. [23:25] The red flags are piling up. They're flagging. Yeah. The flags are flagging. They're blankets. So once the new policies were in place, Joseph's mysterious illnesses quickly followed. It started with, quote, shooting pains in his arms and legs. [23:41] And then his arms and legs became stiff and eventually numb. So he was like basically paralyzed. Holy shit. His breath also started to smell strongly of garlic, even though he wasn't eating very garlicky foods. Within a few days, his symptoms became so severe that he was paralyzed from the waist down. Oh my. And trigger warning for animal death.

[24:11] at the table. Oh no! Is this arsenic? [24:15] Could be. Okay. Good call. Was it the Jarlick? It's the Jarlick. So Joseph had been seen by Tilly's doctor and had been given multiple prescriptions, but nothing seemed to be helping the pain or the numbness that he was experiencing. After Joseph suffered for several days, his brother John. I just feel bad. I know. Me too. After he was suffering, his brother John insisted that he needed to see a different doctor. He needed a second opinion. And Tilly was like, no, it's fine. [24:45] And I'm more than capable of caring for my husband. And she said, I don't need help from a stranger. No way. And John said, hey, that's cool, but I'm not a stranger because he's my brother. Yeah. What girl? Huh? So he was like, no, no, no, no, no. I'm arranging for a physician to look him over of my choosing. So he hired Dr. P.T. Burns to check in on his brother. Burns took one look at Joseph and immediately, like Elena, recognized the telltale signs of arsenic poisoning. [25:15] According to Burns, Climax showed every evidence of a slow poison. But to be sure, he returned later that afternoon to double check the symptoms, and that only convinced him further. So Dr. Burns had Joseph taken to the hospital, where the other doctors predicted that he had, quote, [25:30] This is wild. About an equal chance to live or die. [25:34] That's literally the worst thing I can imagine hearing at a doctor's office. No, like, imagine. Even though that's kind of, like, life. Yeah, that does happen. I'm sure many people have heard that. But, like, why...

[25:46] Why did you need a medical degree to tell me that? I feel like that's just every day. We roll the dice. Do you know about coin tosses? Yeah. Pick heads or tails? He said that's basically where you are. Your life is a penny. Like, isn't that where all of us are? Yeah. Equal chances to live or die. Yeah, pretty much. So once he'd been removed from the house, Dr. Burns checked in with the attending doctor and got a list of all the prescriptions that Joseph had been given. Because medicine did contain arsenic back then. Yeah. Remember? Arsenic was everywhere. [26:16] So he was like, OK, maybe that's the case here. Like maybe one of your medicines has arsenic in it and you're like overdoing it or something like that. So he took all of the medications to a chemist, Dr. William McNally, who tested each individual medication and confirmed that all of them showed evidence of arsenic. Oh, but they weren't supposed to. [26:34] Oh, they weren't they weren't medicines that were supposed to have arsenic included amongst the ingredients. So that meant that somebody had intentionally poisoned him. My how the turns have tabled. Yeah, it's so crazy. We didn't see this coming. Well, I can't believe she she was putting arsenic in his medications. I think probably because she knows they're all getting suspicious of eating her food. Yeah, probably. She's like, well, they're not going to be suspicious of their meds. I think it may have been a mixture of both, to be honest. [27:04] findings and all of the results of the chemical analysis to police conveying to them that he suspected tilly of poisoning her husband wow they reviewed the evidence and everything that they had already started to hear about tilly in years past and october 26 1922 detectives not only arrested tilly but her 26 year old son joseph oh

[27:26] The announcement of Tilly's arrest in the newspapers seemed to kind of break a damn on local gossip. Oh, no. And within hours, investigators were receiving all, [27:34] anonymous letters just like in tons so they were like please exhume all of the bodies of her previous husbands and examine them for signs of poisoning it's going down for real it's going in their search of her apartment or their apartment together investigators discovered a bottle of arsenic labeled rough on rats rough on rats and tilly's son said that belonged to a former nurse who lived with us the previous year like that's that's not ours it's just here [28:04] I also love that it's like it's rat poison, essentially. And he's like, oh, no, a nurse lived here. And that was her. She used arsenic. And you're like, babe, that's rat poison. Like you didn't need to throw the nurse in there. No. Just say that belonged to a previous owner. Or just say like, yeah, we have that because we had a rat problem. It's a rat poison. Like he's like, no, that was a nurse. It's like not ours. Wasn't me. Definitely medical. At the station, Tilly was relentlessly questioned by detectives. And now the state's attorney who suspected her not just of attempted murder, [28:34] of multiple murders at this point. Oh my God. They demanded to know how it was that the two dogs who had eaten from Joseph Plate also came to die. Yeah. And she insisted... [28:44] They just fell over and died. You can't make me a poisoner. I'll show you that my first husband had an infection in his throat. [28:51] I'll show you. [28:52] Thank you. Thank you so much. Do you have his throat, man? What is that? Do you have his larynx? Like, what is going on? I don't know if she just meant, like, I'll take you to the doctor. I'll show you. But also her first husband died of heart problems.

[29:07] Oops. Yeah. So what? What was that, baby? Did you lose track of husband? He's thrown her too. So while she was at the police station claiming innocence, Joseph, her husband, was at the hospital telling police a very different story. According to him, he had been examined by a doctor a few weeks earlier after his wife took out a new life insurance policy and he immediately fell ill. He said, a week or two later after the examination, I found I couldn't smoke anymore. [29:37] Then I began to get sick. I seemed to be burning up. I'm afraid someone poisoned me in a plot. [29:42] In a plot. In a plot, they poisoned me. In a plot. He wouldn't name Tilly outright, but it was pretty clear to the detectives that if anybody had poisoned this guy, it would have to be somebody who had access to his food and his personal belongings. Yeah. There was nobody else in the house who stood to gain more from Joseph's death either than his wife, and she did seem to have a history of men dying around her not long after getting married. And acted crazy at their funerals. Yeah, that was pretty violent. That was her. That's just Tilly. [30:12] yeah that's just tilly things so at the precinct investigators confronted tilly with all of the evidence and their theory they're like hey you know how like you have this string of husbands that turns up dead and now like your current husband is on the precipice of death you know 50 50 give or take it's weird we think you might have something to do with that strange and she broke down and confessed that she tried to poison joseph because he was quote fooling around with

[30:42] Like, they're not going to understand that. Yeah, just let them be a fool. Now, to add even more salaciousness to this, according to Tilly, she received the poison from her cousin Nellie. [30:54] Oh. And she said she started putting it in her husband's food after he was examined for the life insurance policy. Oh. A few days later, the coroner exhumed Fred Kupchick's body for analysis. I think I believe that was her first husband and discovered that his remains still contained arsenic enough to kill four men. Holy shit. [31:14] It hadn't even degraded, that's how much it was? No. Which also, like, obviously some of it probably had degraded, and there was still enough. It was still that high? To kill four months. Yeah. At the same time, the case appeared to expand with the arrest now of Tilly's cousin Nellie, who was also suspected of murder. Nellie and Tilly? Just like her cousin Tilly, a surprising number of people around Nellie seemed to have fallen ill or died from mysterious causes, including her late husband, who was Voychik's stermer. [31:44] Never suspect Nellie and Tilly. I know. Of murdering people. Well, that's the thing. Nobody did for a while. No. You can only murder so many people. Yeah. Until people start to, like... [31:54] Literally people that you are really connected to. Yeah. [31:57] constantly like the most connected to and that you stand to gain financially from murdering yeah you gotta it's good that they weren't undercover you keep doing that that's gonna catch up with you and it did one of the notes that police received after tilly's arrest indicated that nelly's husband had in fact been poisoned by her oh boy and initially the note wasn't given a lot of attention but once they learned that tilly got the poison from her cousin that's when they started to look at her as an accomplice wait a minute so the arrest of nelly caused a sensation among the

[32:27] Oh, my God. [32:48] That was a good story. That is a good story. As far as the press were concerned, that's good shit. It's going to pay the bills, sell the papes. So each day, the story seemed to get more and more sensationalized. Just one day after Nellie's arrest, investigators announced that they were exhuming the bodies of each woman's first husband to search for signs of poisoning. This is very salacious. It is. And since Nellie's husband died one year before Tilly's first husband, the press speculated that Tilly, quote, may have been a student of Miss Stermer. Oh, my goodness. [33:18] So they were like, fuck, is Nellie like the OG Mrs. Bluebeard? And then the student surpasses the teacher? Yeah. Damn. In a series of events that we really were not rooting for. Yeah, a series of very unfortunate events. Lemony Snick. Yeah. So the discovery of arsenic and the remains of two, now, of Tilly's dead husbands... Oh, no. ...prompted police to expand their potential victim pool. And they started taking the claims and assertions previously regarded as gossip. Yeah. Seriously, now. You have to. For example, Harry Swida, one of Tilly's cousins... [33:47] told the attorney general that his sister [33:49] who also would have been Tilly's cousin, his sister Rose, died mysteriously after attending a dinner at Tilly's apartment.

[33:57] And here I am. [33:59] I'm overcooking my chicken to hell because I'm scared of giving someone a tummy ache. I know. I know you take chicken precautions super seriously. I take chicken so seriously. And this woman, you come to her house, you might die. You might, in fact, die, especially if she doesn't like you. Damn. Another cousin, Elizabeth Wintowski, told investigators about the unexpected death of two of her sisters and a brother, all of whom had dined with Tilly shortly before they died. What the actual fuck? Yeah. [34:29] people has she murdered? [34:32] The thing is, we're not sure. The limit does not exist. Period. Yeah. Yeah. There's actually no period as far as Tilly's concerned. It's an ellipsis. [34:41] many yeah there's a series of ellipses yeah with each new claim came a new order to exhume another body and soon dr mcnally the coroner was completely overwhelmed by requests for analysis of so many different so many [35:06] Improving your sleep can feel overwhelming. It's like, do I need a new mattress? Do I need to check this tracker that I'm on? Should I be taking this supplement? Oh my god, I think I need blackout curtains. Whoa, it's overwhelming. Upgrade your sleep by upgrading your bedding though with bowl and branch. It's simple. Signature satine sheets, breathable pillows, cozy waffle bed blankets, I freaking love a waffle bed blanket, and beautifully crafted comforters work together

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[39:05] so despite their strong suspicions that there were in fact other victims the state attorney's office only had tilly's confession to the attempted poisoning of her current husband which obviously obviously was not a murder because he's still alive [39:21] But there was a strong enough case to prosecute her for the murder of, I was incorrect, her third husband. Originally, I thought that was her first. Oh, my goodness. There's so many of them. Her third husband, Frank Kupchick. Damn. So he was the one who she had put enough arsenic to kill four men, at least. Now, on November 11th, 1922, Tilly was formally charged with Frank's murder, and she pleaded not guilty. At the same time, Nellie was charged with the murder of her husband, Wojcik Stermer. [39:51] continued to dig into their past, looking for even more potential victims. [39:55] After their arraignment, the Mrs. Bluebeard story seemed to grow even larger, at least as far as the press was concerned. Just one day after Tilly and Nellie appeared in court, the papers were announcing the discovery of even more potential victims. Holy shit. Including Tilly's former husband, Joseph Ruskowski. And this is horrible. Two of Nellie's children, both of whom died in infancy. Holy shit. [40:19] Yeah. [40:19] Now, there was no evidence of foul play, but the press did imply that six of Nellie's children had died under mysterious circumstances. What? And they started comparing her and Tilly to Belle Gunness. Oh, my God. I was I was wondering if that was going to be a comparison. Yeah, we haven't done. I think is it Gunness or Gunness? Might be Gunness. I think it might be Gunness. I'm not positive. But yeah, well, we will cover that, I think, eventually, because a lot of people know about that case and it is highly requested.

[40:49] it's a terrible one. She just kills all of her children, right? And like, legit babies. Yeah, she's pretty terrible. But her story is... [40:57] unbelievable in the worst way do you remember that old show i don't know if it was on id killer women yeah that was the first time i ever saw that oh really yeah that's on that case damn [41:09] So she was famous because she had been arrested a decade earlier, which is crazy to think that was a decade before. Yes. [41:16] Now, the claims were given credibility when Nellie's husband's body was exhumed. [41:20] and his remains were found to contain traces of arsenic. Oh, damn. So she's in on this. She's in on it. With each day that passed, Tilly and Nellie's suspected body count just continued to increase and came to include former husbands, family members, neighbors, pretty much anyone who died while under their care, or anyone who had been recently in the company of either woman. Holy shit. By mid-November, the suspected number of victims had risen to 20 people, [41:50] by a grand jury. Wow. [41:52] Their trial was scheduled for winter 1923, and in the meantime, investigators just continued to build their case, and the press continued their daily coverage of every sensational aspect of the story that they could come up with, which they didn't even really have to come up with much. It was all just there for them. It was all there. The intense press coverage made Tilly kind of a celebrity, and she gave interviews from her jail cell. I know. I hate that part of murder investigations and trials and everything. That they're, like, giving interviews and shit.

[42:22] Yeah. [42:33] Babe, no one should hear your opinion on young people. [42:36] Or your opinion on flappers. Or your relationships with men. Yeah, I definitely don't want to hear that. No. We know your relationships with men. Exactly. She told one reporter, Me, I came to this country when I was a year old from Germany. No foolishness with us. We work. Basically indicating that she didn't think young people worked anymore. Oh, damn. Okay. I know. She was mad. However, when it came to the actual charges against her, she didn't really say very much, and she just wasn't interested in talking about it. Just super, like, whatever. [43:06] about it all. Now, if she appeared calm and collected when it came to the press, Nellie was the exact opposite. Whenever she gave statements to the press, she seemed very anxious, very overly emotional. She once begged a reporter, write to my children, write to my people, tell them not to believe all they hear. [43:23] Now, to spectators following the case, Tilly was exactly the type of woman who seemed as at home in a jail cell as she did in her own apartment. She didn't give a fuck. Tilly was made for this life. She literally was. But Nellie was out of place. Like, she was losing her mind. Yeah. By the end of November, investigators announced that they were searching for a third potential conspirator in the case. My goodness. Nellie's current friend and former boarder, Mary Wojtchevsky.

[43:53] died, quote, after drinking beer at a party at which Miss Kulik was present, and they believe the death was due to arsenic. [44:01] How much arsenic do these women have? Arsenic was just like, I think, like CVS had arsenic back then. Goddamn. It was just like, go down the street and grab some arsenic. Yeah. [44:12] And also, I guess you could just buy rat poison. Yeah, there's that. Oy. Oy. [44:16] Now, additional arrests were made. Nellie's sister was arrested and her niece was arrested on suspicion of murder. Just a group of gals. The press started referring to the women as the bluebeard clique. Whoa. And they called Tilly the high priestess of the group. Get the fuck out of here. I was like, don't call her the high priestess. No. That's so, like, fuck you. [44:36] You know, so you're mixing your references here. It just doesn't make sense. Yeah. Don't over-egg the pudding. Tilly finally went on trial in early March of 1923 with Assistant State's attorney, William McLaughlin, prosecuting. McLaughlin. I always think of John when I hear that name. By then, they all as a group had been indicted on six murders. Wow. In his opening statement, McLaughlin presented the case, the state's case in simple terms. [45:06] nearly a score more. [45:08] Wow. And he said they did this through a series of poison parties. Poison parties. And that their motives ranged from financial gain to ridding themselves of anyone they disliked. [45:18] Poison parties. Poison parties. Like a Tupperware party. Holy shit. Or a Botox party.

[45:25] Wow. Yeah. After listing out all the names of those believed to have been killed by the pair and those also made ill, McLaughlin announced that if convicted, they would be seeking the death penalty. Damn. Which was not, that didn't happen all that often. No. And especially with women. No. So over the course of the week-long trial, witnesses included six physicians, a chemist, four nurses, and several insurance agents, as you can imagine. Wow. [45:49] who all testified against the accused. By far the most entertaining were a trio of grave diggers and an undertaker. [45:56] who were all neighbors of Tilly and her husband around the time of his death. One of the undertakers told the jury, Frank used to leave for work every day at six, and I'd often see John Kowski come over to visit Tilly. [46:09] Once I seen him kiss her. [46:11] So they're like, here we go talking about John coming for the smooches. They said she's a trollop. They said. [46:16] She'd be smooching. One thing about Tilly. Don't let anyone. She stays smooching John. She's a smooching bandit. It's always John. It's always John. She's got a thing for him. Now, the most compelling evidence came from the doctors and nurses who were actively still treating Joseph Climac. [46:31] who was still too ill to testify against his wife at that point. Yeah, did we all forget? He's still alive. He's still alive. According to nurse Mildred Scully, who I would trust with my fucking life, and who had been treating Joseph while he was still in the home, Tilly routinely made tasteless jokes about her husband's impending death, and on one occasion told the nurse, if he makes any trouble for you, take a 2x4 board and hit him over the head with it. So here's the thing.

[46:58] That's a little bit funny as hell. Yeah. And if she wasn't a mass murderer, like a serial killer, I'd be like, that's just regular. Like, you've been married and you're trying to be funny when your husband's in a shitty position. But then you look at it in context. But then you look at it like she's a serial killer and actually does harm people. You're like, oh, that's the scariest thing I've ever heard because she's actually telling you to do that. Yeah. But, like, you could see some, like, you know, feisty lady. I guarantee you. [47:28] trouble just hit him with a two by four like that would be funny i guarantee you at least 14 people listening their nanas have said that about 100 as like a total joke but you're looking at it here and you're like oh [47:39] Oh, shit. She meant it. That's dark. That's dork side. She meant it. And she said the two by four is right there. Yeah, that's sinister. She said do it. You won't. Sinister. So apparently she smiled too during the trial when Mildred was testifying about that. And everybody in the jury was like, she's smiling over there. She said they're being like, that was a good joke. She's like me. She finds, this is the only way we're similar. She finds, she cracks herself up. Yeah. No one finds Tilly funnier than Tilly. And no one finds Ash funnier than Ash. I crack myself up. She does. I love it. [48:09] So for the most part, Tilly sat emotionless behind the defendant's table while each witness, as they came one by one, testified against her. She did become emotional when the chemist, Dr. William McNally, took the stand, interestingly. When he entered the witness box, the press noted that Tilly, quote, jammered her stocky body well back in the chair and swung her feet in incessant circles as she tried to understand the testimony. Love how they had to throw in stock either. Not only if you actually like let me read that for you one more time.

[48:39] stocky body well into the chair and swung her feet in incessant circles as she tried to understand the testimony they said that bitch is stocky and dumb she's blocky and dumb that's really fucking rude they said she's a minecraft character and she's dumb not a minecraft character like whoa now she seemed anxious when she was a minecraft chemical character as the chemist explained in [49:09] of Tilly's dead husbands had in fact been poisoned. Despite the compelling body of evidence and all the testimony against her, she still proved to be a pretty strong witness when she took the stand in her own defense. That's wild. Which is much like Joseph's he could live or he could die. Yeah. Taking the stand in your own defense, you could live or you could die. A gamble. A gamble. [49:29] Dressed in plain black attire with a translator by her side, she strongly and repeatedly denied killing anyone, including her husband, Frank Kupchick. When asked directly whether she was responsible for Frank's death, she replied, I certainly was not. He died by moonshine. [49:44] Oh. [49:45] I don't know if she meant the drank. The drank. I'm assuming she meant the drank. Because that was the one where she said his throat, too. So who knows? Now, as for any marital troubles or affairs, she dismissed that as nothing more than gossip. She told the jury, I loved them. They loved me. They just died. Same as other people. I'm not responsible for that. I could not help if they wanted to die. [50:07] Why are we assuming they wanted to die now? That's the thing. I was like, why are we making that assumption? Like, they weren't old. Yeah. And, like, they didn't die by, like, you know...

[50:20] like that suicide was not considered i like that she's like i it's not my fault that they they like just chose not to get better like it literally that's exactly what she's sorry you chose to get sick [50:31] your fault weird like what the weird choice yeah she didn't give a fuck now the press was actually impressed with her calm demeanor and her ability to maintain composure yeah is the press okay [50:42] No, never. But ultimately, the jury was less convinced. In the end, the evidence against Tilly was much too damning. Yeah, the prosecution was convincing. So on March 13, after just an hour of deliberation, the jury found Tilly guilty for the murder of Frank Kupchick. When the verdict was read, she didn't show any emotion at all. And she, quote, sat so still, she made her neighbors wriggle uncomfortably. Ew. I know. Fortunately for Tilly, the jury could not bring themselves to sentence a woman to death. [51:12] prison. [51:13] On her way back to her cell after the trial, her only response to the crowd of reporters outside was to talk about how warm it was in the courthouse. [51:21] Damn, it's like just warm in there. [51:24] That's cold-blooded. Yeah. Now, as she was led from the courtroom, she was also met with the cheers of her female supporters in the court who shouted, never mind, Tilly. Don't forget, there's a new motion for a new trial for a week from Saturday. Cheer up! [51:42] Wow. [51:45] Babe, they exhumed the three bodies of her three husbands that all contained so much arsenic it could blow your fucking skirt up. Like, goddamn. It could blow your skirt into another galaxy. Literally. Forget the Milky Way, babe. What the fuck? And you're like, don't worry, girl. Don't get down on yourself. Cheer up. All smiles, Tilly. It's all up from here. No, it's down from here.

[52:12] go. [52:12] She's going to jail. Oh, Lord. Now, Nellie's trial was repeatedly delayed for more than a year while she sat in a jail cell. But on November 8th, 1923, a jury found her not guilty and she was free to go. [52:25] Mind you, they exhumed her husband's body and there was arsenic in it. He had the arsenic. [52:31] I wonder if they thought that Tilly did it. Maybe. Now, in the weeks and months after Tilly's trial, there was a lot of talk about the fact that several other Chicago women had been acquitted on murder charges, and Tilly was very quickly convicted. Some members of the press and public speculated that her conviction was due to her... [52:48] Lacking physical attraction. Whoa. They said, I think you convicted her because she's ugly. I'm not saying she's ugly, but that's what they said. That's what they said. And they pointed to the repeated unkind descriptions of her throughout the trial. [53:00] Mostly male journalists pushed back on that complaint. One journalist wrote, There is no good reason to believe that they would have acquitted her had she been other than homely. The evidence showed that she was guilty of deliberately planning the death of at least one man and probably a dozen more. I mean, valid. Calling someone homely is so... Homely is... Diabolical. That's down dirty. Yeah, it really is. Too much. Now, once she settled into life in prison, she was kind of thriving in there. Yeah, I think she was meant for that life. [53:30] was in fact meant for that life she was a model prisoner she found work sewing american flags for other prison institutions wow she had a bunch of homies in there okay uh staff loved her she didn't pose any problems at all and then on november 20th 1936 she died of heart disease at dwight prison and she was 64 that's young

[53:53] Yeah. [53:54] Wow, Tilly. Isn't that... [53:56] One of the wildest stories. [53:58] Tilly raged. She raged. She may have been the high priestess of arsenic poisoning. Yeah, she raged through life. [54:05] Yeah, forget dancing through life. Yeah, she was. Not silly. No. She was never meant for that. Never. [54:11] Holy shit. [54:12] And Joseph lived. That's nice. Oh, Joseph lived. I didn't think of that. Yeah. So he lived. Yeah. I mean, that's rough. Rough existence after that. But yeah. I know what the long term effects of arsenic poisoning are. [54:25] Do you have a fun fact? That was a crazy story. It was. I do have a fun fact. [54:31] Don't forget a fun fact. This is thanks to Mikey. Mikey gave me this fun fact. Thank you, Michael. [54:36] Orcas? [54:37] are a natural predator of moose. [54:41] How? [54:43] They can dive to eat seaweed, moose can. Moose? And orcas are documented natural predators of moose in coastal Alaska and Canada. They attack them when they swim between islands or along shorelines. [54:57] Wow. I don't know how fun that is, but it's mind-blowing. [55:03] Love Moose. [55:05] So now I have street beef with orcas. You actually can't really have street beef with them. I have ocean beef with orcas. You have aquatic beef. Yeah. I have marine beef. Marine beef. Not marine. Oh, that's perfect. Marine beef. I have marine beef. Why is that so disgusting? I just picture soggy hamburgers. Marine beef. Not marine beef. Yeah, I have marine beef with orcas now.

[55:35] So we're going to go unpack that. But I'm really worried about moose. So that's that's how I feel. And what is the plural of moose? Mooses? [55:44] Mises? Mooses? [55:46] I think it's moose. [55:47] I don't like that. It doesn't feel correct. Look at that group of moose over there. Yeah, that sounds so wrong. I don't know if I'm right. I think you are. [55:56] But I don't like it. A world of moose. [55:59] Thank you. [56:01] moose hate it i have to unpack that now too we have a lot to unpack it says correct [56:07] I saw three moose. [56:09] Incorrect. I saw three mooses or three meeses. [56:12] Nah, Mises is better. Or three Mises. [56:15] Mises. Yeah, mooses. [56:18] It apparently did not evolve from Old English, and that's why we didn't get a plural. [56:21] um so that's another fun fact i give you two for one look at you you're so fun look at that all right well we hope you keep listening we hope you keep it weird but not so weird that you spend several days thinking about the plural of moose just being loose it's moose [56:38] Think about it. Maybe keep it now here. [56:43] Moose!

[57:08] Thank you. [57:38] Thank you. [58:12] Hello, I'm Ozempic. And I'm other GLP ones, kind of like him. Are you shaking a maraca? No, I'm shaking the pill version of Ozempic, which no one should ever do except in ads like this. A nice disclaimer. Thanks. Ask your doctor about which FDA-approved uses of the Ozempic pen or pill may be right for you. Call 1-833-OZEMPIC or visit Ozempic.com to view the medication guide and learn more about Ozempic semaglutide tablets, 9 mg, and Ozempic semaglutide injection, 2 mg. There's a pill version of Ozempic!

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