MURDERED: Barry and Honey Sherman

[00:00] Hi, Crime Junkies. It's Britt, and I have big news. One of my favorite seasonal shows, CounterClock, is back with a brand new season, and it is wild. Host Delia D'Ambra is digging into the 2008 Lane Bryant murders. I mean, this isn't just a recap. It is a reinvestigation. She's talking to law enforcement, people from the community, even sources who have never spoken publicly until now. And you know I love a show that asks all the questions. Listen to CounterClock Season 8 now wherever you get your podcasts. [00:30] Hi, Crime Junkies, and happy Monday. I'm your host, Ashley Flowers. And I'm Britt. I'm here to tell you a pretty recent story, one out of Toronto, Canada, which, by the way, Britt, we're like making our Canada debut this summer. We're actually doing a live show in Toronto for anyone who hasn't paid attention. You can see everything on our events page if you're not listening to this two years from now. But the story that I have has a little bit of everything [01:00] a lot of money. This is the story of Barry and Honey Sherman. [01:06] Music

[01:37] It's 10 o'clock in the morning on a snowy December day, and Elise Stern is just pulling up in front of [redacted address] in North York, Ontario. [01:47] She's working with another realtor to sell the six-bedroom, nine-bathroom mansion belonging to pharmaceutical industry billionaire Barry Sherman and his wife of 47 years, Honey. Now, they'd been showing the house, but so far, no real, like, solid bites. Elisa tried to reach the Shermans this morning because she had a potential buyer that she wanted to bring by, but they weren't answering their phones. Now, she knows Barry and Honey are down to sell, so she just kind of goes ahead with the showing anyways and hopes for the best. [02:17] Elise arrives, there are two people already in the house, a housekeeper who comes weekly on a set schedule and a woman who comes like a couple of times a week to take care of their plants. The homeowners cars are outside, but it turns out that they aren't home. And it's a little strange, but actually kind of works out perfectly since she's showing the home. So the prospective buyers and their agent arrive and Elise begins the tour. They start upstairs with the spacious master, the spiral staircase, the jacuzzi tubs. Then they head to the main level. [02:47] them the large kitchen, the dining room, more bathrooms. And then they head to the lower level, which is much bigger than even the upper levels. And Elise leads them down a hallway, pointing out the garage and the sauna. This house is bananas, by the way. Like, I remember touring my like 1600 foot home and thinking it was massive. And this feels crazy. Yeah, this seems like excessive. Yeah. So they get to the end of the hall where the Shermans had an indoor lap pool that she knows these potential buyers are eager to see. It's one of the biggest

[03:17] of this house. But when she opens the door to the pool room, she sees something she could never have prepared herself for. [03:25] two people. [03:26] Fully dressed, backs to the pool, held up in a seated position by something tied around their necks. [03:35] Now, she's got the other realtor and these clients right behind her. So even though she doesn't know exactly what it is that she's looking at, she knows it isn't right. So she quickly reverses out of the pool room, telling the buyers that this area is kind of off limits at the moment. And they'll have a chance to take a closer look another time if they're serious about purchasing the property. So she walks the other realtor and his client up the stairs and ushers them out of the door as quickly as she can while still trying to be professional. All the while, Alisa's mind is racing. [04:05] What? [04:29] I know. So instead, Elise's first call is to Honey's sister, Mary, the sister who helped the Shermans with their real estate transactions. So someone Elise would know pretty well. Mary isn't even nearby. She's actually in Florida. So it's not like she's going to pop in and help with anything. I'm not totally sure why she called her other than maybe just not knowing what to do. But either way, it's another hour and a half before Elise finally calls 911. Why did she wait so long?

[04:59] In the book, The Billionaire Murders by Kevin Donovan, he says that after Mary gets that phone call from Elise, she, meaning Mary, calls Barry and Honey's four children, which are Lauren, Jonathan, Alex and Kaylin. So it's possible that Elise was waiting for them to be notified before she did anything else. [05:29] Okay, I guess I can see that. Like, they're pillars of the community. It's not really news you'd want to hear about your parents, like, on Twitter or something. Right. I mean, you'd want to hear that from a loved one. So just before noon on December 13th, 2017, Elise finally makes that call to police, who immediately respond with officers along with firefighters and paramedics. [05:59] are deceased and likely had been for some time based on the condition of the bodies. The heat and the humidity in that pool room made it difficult to figure out exactly when the two might have died based on just like a first look, but investigators knew that it wasn't that morning. [06:14] But it's how their bodies were found. That's the part that shocked even the most seasoned first responders. Barry Sherman was seated, legs stretched out in front of him. His right leg crossed neatly over his left. And his jacket was pulled down a bit from his shoulders, kind of like you would like shrug it off and shimmied it down. And this basically helped hold his arms at his side.

[06:44] that they always were. There wasn't a hair out of place. Now, Honey was next to him in a similar position, seated upright, legs stretched out in front of her, and her coat was also pulled down around her shoulders. Now, that's creepy enough, [07:00] But the even creepier part was that the setup of these bodies bore a striking resemblance to a sculpture that the Shermans had in the TV room right across from the pool. So, Brett, you heard the description of what the bodies were positioned like. I'm going to send you this picture. [07:18] Oh my gosh, these statues are like exactly how you described Barry and Honey's bodies. [07:23] It's weird. And they're not even like... [07:25] full mannequins. They're like made of different colors. They almost look like a muscular statue. You know what I mean? Like if all the skin were off, like it's some sort of like anatomical figure is what it looks like. [07:36] So both Barry and Honey were seated with their backs to the pool, but upright. Now, you might be wondering how they were sitting upright and not slumped over or laying down. Well, Barry and Honey each had a leather belt looped around their necks, tied above them to this like low railing that went around the outside of the pool. And it was the belts that held their bodies in place. Now, the only sign of any kind of struggle are injuries to Honey's face. [08:06] are still a little bit of a mystery because police have never released details about her injuries. [08:12] It's obvious to everyone on the scene that something suspicious has gone on here, and police waste no time calling in the medical examiner and the forensic crime scene team to begin an investigation. It's just before 4 p.m. at this point, just a few hours from the police call when the first media story goes public, saying that two bodies had been found in the Sherman home.

[08:34] Within a few minutes, a friend and colleague of the Shermans, who was an elected official, in fact, tweeted that Barry and Honey had been found dead. And just like that, everything changed. Reporters descended on the Sherman home. Cameras roll as the medical examiner takes the bodies away from the scene for autopsy. One of the detectives comes out to say that they're treating the deaths as suspicious. And so there's this buzz around that they're dealing with a double murder, a homicide. [09:04] have no idea how Barry and Honey died or how their bodies were found. I mean, they could have very well been accidental deaths for all they know. [09:11] But finally, one of the detectives on the case comes out to speak to the media. Now, there isn't much he can say. He tells them the circumstances of the Sherman's deaths seems suspicious and that they're treating the investigation as though they are suspicious. He tells reporters that the forensic team is going through the scene now and asks anyone with information to call Toronto police. And he says, listen, we'll have more for you later. [09:41] and stands in front of the growing number of reporters gathered waiting for news. And he again tells them that the deaths are suspicious and that the investigation is ongoing. But he also says that so far they've found no sign of forced entry and that they aren't looking for any suspects. [10:00] Okay, what does that mean? So that's pretty much what the reporters are thinking too. They're like, what do you mean you aren't looking for any suspects? But the detectives won't say any more than that. No forced entry, no suspects. Now, obviously, reporters start peppering this guy with questions. When did they die? When were they last seen alive? The house is listed for sale. Are you looking at people who maybe went through the house for reviewing? The detective answered none of these questions except to repeat what he already told them.

[10:30] no signs of forced entry, [10:32] And they are not seeking any suspects. And that's all he would say. And it's not until the next morning's headline news that the public finally hears something that puts everything into context and finally makes the detectives' comments make sense. [10:51] I recently learned that after working out, performance and recovery come down to what's happening in your blood. Now, I pay a lot more attention to what's happening inside my body. And here's what most people overlook. Training gives your body the stimulus, but your internal environment determines what happens next. Thankfully, function can help you see exactly what's going on under the hood. Things like your glucose, whether your body is burning clean or running on fumes. Your omega-6 to omega-3 ratio, which one is winning the inflammation battle. Your DHEAS, one of the building blocks your body uses to make testosterone. [11:21] one of the first things to quietly decline. When these markers are off, you can do everything right and still feel like you're fighting against yourself. Check in on your health. Function provides over 160 labs for $1 per day and member pricing on MRI and CT scans. Join at functionhealth.com slash crimejunkie or use gift code crimejunkie25 for a $25 credit toward your membership. [11:42] Chime is changing the way that people bank. They offer the most rewarding fee-free banking built for you. Chime has thousands of fee-free ATMs. Like, why pay to get your own money? Plus, you can get savings that grow faster with a 3.75% APY. That is nine times higher than the national average. Chime members can even staff benefits, like up to $1,150 in annual rewards,

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[14:06] podcast would do in the wake of what they saw as an incompetent police work. They started their own investigation. And not just like armchair detective stuff. No, they hired their own team of investigators led by prominent Canadian defense attorney Brian Greenspan, and they started to fight back. That very day, one day after the discovery of Barry and Honey's bodies, the Sherman family issued a [14:36] police to, quote, conduct a thorough, intensive and objective criminal investigation, end quote. So basically just... [14:45] Do your jobs. Pretty much. Then they made an important phone call. They called the Ontario coroner's office and asked that they hold the bodies of Barry and Honey Sherman so that they can do their own autopsies. Can they even do that? Apparently, because the private investigation team was given access to the bodies to perform a second set of autopsies, but not before the forensic pathologist did the first one, the official one. Those postmortems happened on the day after the bodies were discovered. [15:15] TAPSI can be an important source of information early on in a case. It can uncover evidence or information that can help investigators as they work a case, things like DNA under someone's fingernails or drugs in their system or whatever injury happened before or after death. These details are important. But the forensic pathologist's work is ultimately focused on answering two key questions. Who is this person and how did they die? The second question, how did they die, is broken into two components, really.

[15:45] and manner of death. And if you're wondering what the heck the difference between them is, I was too. So don't worry, because I asked Brit to kind of like give us the lowdown. [15:54] Okay, so cause of death refers to like the disease or injury that like led to the person's death. So like complications from a chronic illness or a gunshot wound or a drug overdose, stuff like that. But the manner of death refers to like how someone died. So it kind of falls into four main categories. So there's natural death, accidental death, homicide, or suicide. And there is a fifth option, which I'm sure most crime junkies know about because it's super frustrating. [16:24] It's undetermined. [16:25] That's used when there's really not enough information to define the manner of death into the four main categories. I can't believe we've made it like 200 episodes and I'm just now getting this explained to everyone. So please don't fire me. But all in all, manner of death is what the Sherman family is most interested in at this point. They were sure that this was not a murder-suicide and they wanted to prove it. But in those early days of the investigation, police were still considering two other possibilities in the deaths. [16:55] or it could have been a double suicide. [16:58] They hoped the autopsies would help them narrow this down to one working theory. And here's what the autopsies on Barry and Honey Sherman told police. First, Barry's hyoid bone was intact. And again, this is that little bone in your neck that we've talked about on the show before. The hyoid bone can break when someone is violently strangled, but tends to remain intact for those who die by suicide. But the hyoid doesn't always break when someone is strangled.

[17:28] doesn't disprove the police's theory of death by suicide, it isn't a slam dunk by any means. So that's the first thing. The second thing that is obvious to everyone in the room for the autopsy is that Barry, well, so he wasn't in great shape, even by 75-year-old standards. According to the account of the autopsy in Kevin Donovan's book, the forensic pathologist found very little muscle tone and low bone density, a sure sign of a sedentary life. So this kind of detail might [17:58] important, but it's interesting here because the police's murder-suicide theory relied on Barry knocking Honey out in another part of the house and then dragging her body to the pool room to pose it in that really specific way that we talked about. And based on what they saw in the autopsy table, they wondered, was this even possible? [18:19] Now, the third finding from the autopsy that I want to tell you about is the most interesting of all to me. There were abrasions on Barry Sherman's wrists. They had been tied together, likely with something like zip ties. [18:34] So, [18:35] You have to wonder, does a suicidal man zip tie his own wrists before he kills himself? And if so, where were the ties or the ropes or whatever he used? Like there was nothing else around him and nothing else like that at the scene. [18:50] Honey's autopsy was done right after and had a lot of the same findings, the intact hyoid, marks on her wrists. Honey was much more active than her husband. She worked out with a trainer every week and golfed as much as she could. And unlike her husband, her body showed significant muscle tone. And they were roughly the same weight, making it even less likely that Barry could have overpowered her. Now, I mentioned before that Honey had an injury to her face. The pathologist looked at this closely, too.

[19:20] tell exactly what caused it. Like she may have been hit with something or the injury might have just happened through the course of moving and staging her body. But he did confirm that it happened either immediately before or sometime after her death. And they would be able to determine that by like maybe lack of blood flow if it happened after she died, right? That's what I'm thinking. If they're saying immediately before or sometime after, it had to have meant that [19:50] Probably just because of the way the bruising looked, they could determine that. At the end of both autopsies, the forensic pathologist was able to determine that the cause of death for both Barry and Honey was ligature neck compression or strangulation. Further investigation would be needed to figure out what exactly the ligature was. But the thought was probably the belts found at the seam. [20:13] What the forensic pathologist wasn't able to determine, at least not yet, was manner of death. [20:18] Again, we're talking murder-suicide, double-suicide, or double-homicide. [20:23] Okay, but to me, it seems like the evidence is pointing to a double homicide, right? Like, all of this. The strangulation death, the staging of the bodies. It... [20:31] seems really elaborate for a murder-suicide. Like, I don't know a ton about them, but from what I've read, like, they're usually not this staged and performative. So even if the autopsy can't determine the manner of death, like, to a point, there's got to be something in those reports that's pointing the police away from murder-suicide.

[20:51] So surprisingly, they don't get pointed away from that. And mostly, I think that's because the manner of death is still undetermined. But four days after the official autopsies, the Sherman's own privately hired pathologist performs that second set of autopsies. Now, when the Ontario pathologist did the first ones, he was joined by the investigators working on the case. This is a pretty common practice. So when the privately hired pathologist begins his work, there's really no difference. [21:21] According to the Toronto Star, there were three private investigators in the room, all former Toronto homicide detectives, all hired by Brian Greenspan on behalf of the Sherman children. [21:31] Also in the room for the second set of autopsies was the forensic pathologist who did the first ones. He was there to basically answer any questions and also brought with him like the photos from that first one and also brought with him photos of the crime scene and of the bodies taken before and during autopsy. [21:49] Just like in the original autopsy, the private pathologist also noted the marks on Barry and Honey's wrist. He also examined the ligature marks on their necks and agreed with the original cause of death, ligature neck compression. But he went a step further because based on what he saw, he didn't think Barry and Honey were strangled with the belts that had been holding them upright all that day. He wasn't able to say exactly what had been used, but just that it wasn't the belts. [22:19] talked, people listened. He's not just some rando that they pulled off the street. This pathologist was a former Ontario chief forensic pathologist. And during the time of the autopsies was a senior forensic pathologist at Toronto's Children's Hospital. Oh, so not his first rodeo at all. No. I mean, this guy knows what he is doing. I read an article in the Globe and Mail from 2007,

[22:49] had done 3,000 autopsies. So yeah, not his first rodeo for sure. And after looking at the bodies and at the crime scene photos and talking to the doctor who did the first autopsy, he had no trouble ruling on manner of death. His autopsy was conclusive. [23:08] This was a double homicide. [23:13] For decades, some cold cases have been reduced to files in a cabinet, but not anymore. I'm Ashley Flowers, and me and my team on the deck have been traveling across the country to report on these forgotten cases. And in some instances, it's resulted in these cases being solved after decades. [23:33] Join me every Wednesday as we revive these stories one card at a time. Listen to the deck now. [23:40] wherever you get your podcasts. [23:44] The private pathologist's finding that Barry and Honey Sherman had been victims of a double homicide was no surprise at all to their family and friends. Now, of course, the findings of a private autopsy were not released to the public. So when Barry and Honey were finally laid to rest at a funeral service attended by more than 6,000 people, the prevailing notion in the community was that Barry had killed his wife and then hung himself. [24:14] Do you know if he or, like, anyone shared the findings with the police? Like, especially with the conclusion of double homicide, not murder-suicide?

[24:24] So I couldn't get a crystal clear answer on that. What I did find out was that the Sherman's private investigation team offered to meet with police detectives to go over the findings from the autopsies and talk about potential leads and theories. But as far as I can tell, police didn't take them up on their offer. And in fact, police kept pursuing the murder-suicide theory, seeking no suspects, for another month. Until January 26, 2018. [24:53] That's when Toronto police finally call a press conference and tell an eagerly awaiting public that based on their investigation so far, which included the work of Ontario forensic pathologists, they now consider Barry and Honey's deaths a double homicide. [25:09] Not only had police let the first 48 go by without chasing any leads, this is now 42 days since the discovery of the Sherman's bodies. Police are facing an uphill battle at this point, and they again appeal to the public for any clues. This isn't the first time, and it definitely wasn't going to be the last. [25:29] After this announcement, the Sherman family, along with their many friends and supporters, feel vindicated. [25:34] for a minute at least. Because now that everyone knew it was a double murder, the question on their minds shifted. If it wasn't Barry... [25:43] Who killed the Shermans and why? It might have taken six weeks, but police finally started looking for suspects. So far, they'd done extensive searches at the Shermans' house, including on the roof and in the Toronto sewer system around their home. They did countless witness interviews, reviewed hours and hours of security footage, including from neighbors who lived near the Shermans. But they were no closer to a suspect.

[26:13] been targeted targeted like this was a professional hit i mean that's where my mind goes immediately like to a professional hit but i don't think that's what they meant in this case they just meant that it wasn't a random act like this wasn't a robbery gone wrong right and i guess anybody hired to murder someone wouldn't necessarily pose the bodies like that yeah i agree like the staged death scene definitely feels like this was personal but not only that i mean the cause of [26:43] as the pathologist is calling it. [26:44] Like that's really personal too. Death by strangulation isn't quick. It can take up to eight minutes. I mean, you compare that to a shooting death, which is over in a matter of seconds. This was definitely personal. But there was no evidence at the scene to help guide them to the killer. Everyone they spoke to said that Barry was a kind man with a heart of gold. That Honey was a friend to everyone. Believed strongly in giving back to the community. [27:14] interviews police did. They heard nothing but positive things from everyone. Well, [27:20] Almost. [27:21] Everyone. So I mentioned the Shermans were billionaires. Barry invested millions in the business ventures of friends and family. He bought houses, properties, cars for his children and their families. Together, Barry and Honey had donated millions to charity and urged their peers, which were like the wealthiest people in Canada, to do the same thing.

[27:51] by being really good at navigating the court system. This is where he made a few or maybe more than a few enemies over the few years. Like, let me give you an example. So the house Barry Sherman and Honey Sherman lived in, where their bodies were found, was designed and built for them in the 1980s. At the time, the cost to build the house was about $2.3 million. But Barry ended up recouping almost all of that. [28:21] in court by suing the contractor for poor building practices. Oh, my God. Well, and that's just one example. There are so many like that over Barry's lifetime. He was not afraid of a courtroom. And in fact, it seemed like he kind of enjoyed the whole process. In the years just before he died, he was involved in one of the biggest legal actions of his lifetime. According to an article by Christine Dobby in the Financial Post, [28:51] Winter died. And Barry, then studying for a PhD in astrophysics from MIT, made an offer to buy his company, Empire Labs, from the estate. So Lou and his wife, Beverly, and actually Beverly tragically died just a few weeks after her husband, left behind four young boys. It was those boys who decades later sued their cousin Barry for a billion dollars or a stake in his company, which

[29:21] labs, there would be no Apotex. According to an article in McLean's magazine, the trustees wanted protections built into the sale for the four Winters brothers. So this gets a little like legally complicated, but Barry ended up allowing for those protections sort of. The agreement was that the Winters boys could work for Empire when they turned 21 and that at 23, they could buy up to 5% of the company as long as Barry still owned the business. Now, the... [29:51] The whole agreement is void if Barry were to sell the business, which, of course, he did. [29:56] So Kerry Winter and his brothers argued that they had a right to at least a portion of the proceeds of their late father's company. And that 5% of Empire was basically 5% of Apotex. Three months before Barry and Honey were found dead, a judge sided with Barry and tossed the case out of court. [30:26] thousand dollars in legal fees to their billionaire cousin. Ouch. Oh, yeah. And Barry had even planned to appeal that ruling. He wanted to recover closer to a million dollars in court costs from his cousin. So, I mean, it doesn't take an investigative genius to think maybe that left the Winter Brothers with like a score to settle. [30:47] And maybe that's why Carrie Winter, the brother at the helm of this legal action against Barry, told the Daily Mail that regardless of what police said, he knew.

[30:58] that Barry killed his wife and then took his own life because he said that Barry had talked about killing Honey before. Carrie says that Barry had actually asked him, not once, but twice in the 1990s, to help him kill his wife. Wait, what? Yeah, that's what... [31:18] Everyone following the news said, too, especially the Sherman family. But Carrie insisted Barry had hired him to organize Honey's death, which... [31:27] He says he did, by the way, but Barry ended up getting cold feet at the last minute and they called off the whole thing. Like, I don't know why he's telling anyone this out loud. It seems absurd to me. But he said, like, he was willing to go through with it. And Barry's the one that ended up just like pulling the plug. Now, there's this episode of CBC's The Fifth Estate called The Mystery of the Sherman Murders. And in it, the host actually interviews Carrie Winter about his relationship with Barry and about those murder for hire allegations said to have taken place in the 90s. [31:57] Now, he tells the Fifth Estate the same story he told the Daily Mail that Barry had asked him not once but twice to help him kill Honey. Except the Fifth Estate brought in a polygraph expert and Kerry Winter agreed to answer the polygrapher's questions. And you want to know what the outcome was? He had to have failed. Bingo. Anytime Kerry was asked questions related to the murder for hire story he'd been telling, the polygraph expert saw huge spikes, which told them that he was probably lying. [32:27] He said maybe he was misremembering some of the facts and he was pretty upfront about the fact that he has a long history of drug use and addiction. And he said that this might have been why he was getting the details wrong. But just because this looks like it might be one dead end, it doesn't mean that the case is dead because Carrie Winter is just crazy.

[32:48] one of the people police think may have had motive enough to kill Barry and Honey. They were reasonably certain that whoever killed them had reasons that were both personal and [32:58] and financial, and the other person that they were interested in. [33:02] was much closer to home. [33:06] For decades, some cold cases have been reduced to files in a cabinet, but not anymore. I'm Ashley Flowers, and me and my team on the deck have been traveling across the country to report on these forgotten cases. And in some instances, it's resulted in these cases being solved after decades. Thank you. [33:26] Join me every Wednesday as we revive these stories one card at a time. Listen to the deck now. [33:33] wherever you get your podcasts. [33:37] Besides Carrie Winter, there is one other person with whom Barry had sometimes tense relationship with, and this was his son, Jonathan. Barry had always been generous with his children. Jonathan, along with his business partner, had started several businesses over the years. I mean, they had like the Green Storage Company, a real estate development operation that bought, built and sold vacation homes around the lakes in Ontario, and even an investment company. [34:06] Jonathan and Capital, but it wouldn't be outlandish to consider that it was in the hundreds of millions of dollars. But Jonathan was very much aware that his parents were aging, that his father at 75 years old should be thinking about his retirement rather than working long hours and making big plans, which is what he was doing and what he'd always done. It was known among the family and close friends that Barry's will said this basically, when he died, his fortune went

[34:36] between their four kids. I couldn't get a good sense of how involved Honey was with the investments and gifts Barry made to their children, like the loans and capital that he was giving to Jonathan to get his companies off the ground. But she knew enough to tell Barry that she didn't agree with how much he was shelling out and how often. And I don't get the sense from my research that it was a source of major tension between them, just that Honey felt they were educated kids who should be [35:06] In his book, The Billionaire Murders, Kevin Donovan shares text of emails back and forth between Barry and Jonathan from 2015, two years before Barry and Honey's deaths. Now, in these emails, Jonathan was frustrated in particular about investments his father was making to his friend, Frank D'Angelo, who had multiple business ventures over the years. And again, we're talking not like a couple thousand dollars, we're talking hundreds of millions of dollars of investments. [35:36] you [35:37] pretty questionable, like nothing was really panning out. Barry lost a lot of money to Frank's investments and it started to frustrate Jonathan. [35:44] And more than this, Jonathan wanted his father to start really thinking about a succession plan. Who would take over Apotex once Barry retired? [35:53] According to his close friends and business associates, Barry had no plans to step down anytime soon. In fact, kind of the opposite. He had aggressive plans to grow the company even further before he finally settled into his easy chair. So anytime Jonathan brought it up, Barry was just kind of dismissive of the whole idea. And at one point in the years before Barry and Honey's deaths, Jonathan's frustration led him to reach out to his three sisters to tell them that he worried their father was jeopardizing their inheritance by pouring investments.

[36:23] into Frank's ventures, his other friend. Now, [36:26] He even went so far as to say they should consider removing their father, its founder, from his position as chairman of the company. And, of course, it didn't take long for that email to get back to Barry, who basically just, like, rolled his eyes, laughed it off, saying, oh, like, there goes Jonathan again, trying to stage a coup. And so although Jonathan was super frustrated, I mean, this was... [36:48] Kind of the norm. A fight like this between Jonathan and Barry would lead to a period of not speaking, but then it would eventually blow over. But. [36:56] Now, looking at this in hindsight, we have to wonder, was this frustration and worry about his future inheritance enough to make Jonathan kill his parents? [37:06] I mean, [37:07] We do this every week. We know that anything's possible. [37:11] But, [37:12] I don't know what I think about [37:14] either of these theories. Like, if we go back to the Carrie Winter theory, if motive... [37:19] was revenge. I don't know that Honey would have been a target. Carrie actually said in his interview for The Fifth Estate that he fantasized about killing Barry. Again, he was way more open than he probably should have been. But he said he fantasized about slicing his throat in the Appotex parking lot. And Honey was never a part of this at all for him. And he said he didn't like her much, but that she wasn't the target of his frustration and his anger. It was all Barry. Right. [37:46] But... [37:47] I mean, on the other hand, if we're talking about Jonathan, in order for Jonathan and his sisters to claim their share of the Sherman fortune, both of their parents had to be gone. Otherwise, Barry's money went to honey and honey, as we know, was not so free flowing with the cash.

[38:03] But there is another theory in the case, one that has nothing to do with family or friends. Barry and Honey's neighborhood in North York had been the target of a bunch of break-ins in the year leading up to their deaths. And by bunch, I mean more than 150. During that time, perpetrators would break into the home and then leave with millions of dollars worth of jewelry and other valuables. [38:33] Barry and Honey had in fact been victims themselves of these robberies or burglaries, depending on whether or not someone was home. Someone had broken in through their skylight on the roof of their home and lowered themselves in in an attempt to steal Honey's jewelry. Now, I wasn't able to find any information about this specific thing, like whether the perpetrators were caught or if they made away with anything. But that prior break-in was likely why police were poking around on the roof of their house right after the murders. [39:03] Now, none of the robberies in the neighborhood had ever ended in violence, but it doesn't mean that they never could, right? Like, crimes escalate. So the question is, were Barry and Honey killed in a robbery gone sideways? It's interesting to me that you said the crime scene itself had almost changed. [39:21] no physical evidence. Because to me, like, that seems... [39:25] Like it was done by someone who is good or maybe practiced at being a criminal rather than someone who killed them in like a moment of rage. Yeah, I mean, that's an interesting point. The police have never entirely spelled out what they mean when they say that they believe the Shermans were targeted. I mean, I took that to mean that the murders were personal, but maybe their definition of targeted is broader than that. Maybe they consider a well-known home in a high-end neighborhood, a place that has been robbed before. Maybe they're not.

[39:55] Like that's targeted, too. And almost just on purpose. Yeah. And I also want to mention one other thing. Apparently, the neighbor's security system caught some weird activity at the Sherman house on the day before their bodies were discovered. According to the Toronto Star, a man parked a four-door sedan in front of the Sherman's house and walked in and then walked out three different times between 9 and 10, 15 a.m. [40:25] Now, police believe that Barry and Honey were probably murdered on Wednesday night. And if that's true, then their bodies were in that house, in their pool room, the whole time. [40:39] Now, also remember, the Sherman house was for sale and there was a lockbox on the door. So maybe this guy was a realtor and had a legit reason for being there. Like police won't say much and all they'll say is that they're reviewing the footage. [40:54] So the truth is, we still don't know what happened to Barry and Honey Sherman. At one point, the private investigation team offered a $10 million reward for information leading to an arrest. $10 million. [41:08] But even with that up for grabs, there's been nothing. [41:13] And speaking of the private investigation team, they announced late last year, this is December of 2019, that they were wrapping up their work. They handed all of their files and leads and hunches and theories over to the Toronto police. And the lead investigator on the case has said that the Sherman case is still very much an active one. Now, other investigators on the case have said that they have a working theory of what happened.

[41:43] No arrests, no suspects, not even an official person of interest. [41:49] And you might be thinking the best way to solve a case like this would be to follow the money. [41:55] Even that's impossible to do, at least for those of us outside the Toronto police homicide team, because the Sherman's estate files are sealed. The Toronto Star's Kevin Donovan, who actually is the one that wrote the same book that I mentioned earlier on this case, continues to follow this story closely and report on it for the Star. He's. [42:12] And he wrote that Barry's will was last updated in 2013 and it left everything to his four children. But he also says that Barry was having conversations in recent years about transferring large chunks of cash to others. Hundreds of millions to Honey to have in her own name. Hundreds of millions, maybe even the majority of his fortune, was going to go to charity. Yeah. [42:35] What, if anything, Barry Sherman's will would tell us about his murder, we don't know. But police continue to work the case and ask for the public support. That unprecedented $10 million reward for information is still available. And tips can be made anonymously through Crimestoppers at 416-416-416-416. [42:56] 2 2 2. [42:58] tips. [42:59] If you want to see any pictures from this case, especially the one of the creepy statues that they were facing, you can find that and all of our source material on our website, CrimeJunkiePodcast.com. And be sure to follow us on Instagram at Crime Junkie Podcast.

[43:29] with a brand new episode. [43:53] you [43:55] *music* [43:57] *music* [44:00] Crime Junkie is an audio Chuck production. So what do you think, Chuck? Do you approve? [44:08] Okay, Crime Junkies, you know, I absolutely love a twist and a turn, especially when it comes to people who turn out to be someone they're not. That's why I have been obsessed with the podcast Chameleon. Every Thursday, host Josh Dean deep dives into a scam so bizarre, it will leave you wondering, how did they get away with that? [44:26] It is truly one of my favorite podcasts right now and I've been listening for years. [44:30] I think you'll love it too. [44:32] Listen to Chameleon wherever you get your podcasts.