How to be the best coach to product people | Petra Wille (Strong Product People)

[00:00] getting promoted to, [00:01] is... [00:02] way harder if you're not good in [00:05] telling stories and rallying the team behind the shared goal and all these kind of things. And you usually achieve this [00:11] through good storytelling techniques. And in some teams, I seen the product person not being really, really good at it, but then the whole team helped. [00:19] creating the stories and stuff like this. So you definitely could compensate [00:23] to some extent, but I would consider it a bit of a career starler if you don't get to a decent level of storytelling and to a decent level of public speaking. [00:35] Welcome to Lenny's podcast. I'm Lenny, and my aim here is to help you get better at the craft of building and growing products. [00:42] Today, my guest is Petra Villay. [00:45] Petra is an independent product leadership coach and author of Strong Product People. And for the past 10 years, [00:51] She's been helping product teams boost their skill sets and up their game. Alongside her freelance work, Petra organizes events in Hamburg, Germany, where she's based, and does a ton of one-on-one coaching and speaking and writing. In our conversation, we focus on three things. One, how to become the best coach for PMs, which is really important if you're a new PM manager, and even if you're not a new manager. Two, how to become a better storyteller and why that's important for leaders at every stage of their career. [01:21] community is so valuable and how to go about finding one. Petra is awesome and it was such a fun chat and so with that I bring you Petra Ville.

[01:32] Hey, Ashley, head of marketing at Flatfile. How many B2B SaaS companies would you estimate need to import CSV files from their customers? At least 40%. And how many of them screw that up? And what happens when they do? Well, based on our data, about a third of people will consider switching to another company after just one bad experience during onboarding. [02:01] formatting, they'll leave. I am 0% surprised to hear that. I've consistently seen that improving onboarding is one of the highest leverage opportunities for both sign-up conversion and increasing long-term retention. Getting people to your aha moment more quickly and reliably is so incredibly important. Totally. It's incredible to see how our customers like Square, Spotify, and Zora are able to grow their businesses on top of flat file. This because flawless data [02:31] and their customers where they need to go faster. [03:01] data-driven decisions at a snail's pace. But that's a false choice. You shouldn't have to compromise on speed to get product answers that you can trust. With Mixpanel, there are no trade-offs. Get deep insights at the speed of thought at a fair price that scales as you grow. Mixpanel builds powerful and intuitive product analytics that everyone can trust, use, and afford. Explore plans for teams of every size and see what Mixpanel can do for you at mixpanel.com.

[03:31] to learn more. [03:35] Petra, thank you for being here. Welcome to our little podcast. Hi Lenny, such an honor to be here on a Friday night. Friday night your time, Friday morning my time. [03:45] Thank you for making the time. [03:47] Of course. [03:47] You're a product leadership coach. [03:50] Can you just talk about what you do as a product leadership coach and then also just a bit about the numbers of PMs you worked with, number of companies you worked with, the kind of impact you had, just to kind of sell a little bit of context on your background? [04:01] How I usually describe is it that I work with people leading product people [04:06] So that's the product leadership level that I'm looking at. So that might be a CPO in a smaller startup or a product director, a product team. These are the folks that I'm usually working with. [04:15] for the last four years, I'd say. [04:18] And before that, I coach product managers, so IC level product folks. And before that, I did a lot of product discovery coaching for teams and whole product organizations. [04:29] And. [04:30] You were asked about how many people I may have influenced. [04:33] That's a real hard question, so to say. [04:36] So in one on one coaching, that's what I know. [04:39] I coached around 130 people so far over the last few years, which is already a lot. [04:45] Most of them have [04:47] Yeah, 10 to... [04:48] 20 sessions with me? [04:51] Some really stick with me over the years, so they have more sessions. [04:54] So that's that. And then I have group coaching sessions in corporate and in public setups. And that's, I would say, another 150. And it's all product leads. So usually those people are working with a team of 10 product people.

[05:07] And there are some ripple effects. So I think I have an impact on their lives as well if they're coaching their boss or their line manager, so to say. Plus the teams that I work with as a discovery coach, plus the people that [05:17] read my book and hopefully are using some of the techniques. [05:21] And in the end, yeah, I did a bit of the math and I think it might be around 50,000, 60,000 people if we look at it from the. [05:28] product leadership to IC level structure, that might be the impact. [05:33] That's a pretty impressive number. [05:35] Wow, that is an impressive number. And I always love chatting with folks that do the kind of work you do because there's such a unique insight into working one on one with. [05:43] PMs that are trying to get better and understanding like what trends are happening across PMs at different companies and different countries and things like that. So I'm excited to [05:52] dig into a bunch of stuff. The other thing that I love about where you're focused, [05:56] There's a lot of people that focus on ICPMs, and there's a lot of people that focus on senior leaders, VPs, CPOs. And I love that it feels, and correct me if I'm wrong, but you kind of focus on this middle layer of like. [06:06] first line managers, directors, which I feel like is often the most [06:10] important and influential layer of a company because they're the ones [06:14] doing a lot of the work and making a lot of the decisions day to day? That is the case plus, at least with a lot of clients that I'm working with, they are not [06:22] train product people so they often come from a marketing background or a business background or [06:27] from [06:28] the data background so to say or the engineering background [06:32] but they often never have worked in a product management role. So they are missing a lot of basic product management practice,

[06:40] and a lot of empathy for the struggle of the product people to some extent. [06:45] Plus, how should you help people grow if you have no clue what their role actually is all about? [06:52] So that's what I actually like to help them with, to get this clarity. [06:56] on a strong compass, how the best product organizations and product managers should be working. [07:02] Just to go a little bit on that tangent, because that's an interesting point you just raised. When you work with folks that are not product people and that end up leading product people and trying to better product, [07:11] what's the thing they lack most, like the skill or the understanding of product? [07:16] If you had to think of one or two things that these people like, okay, they totally missed this part about product management, about building product. [07:23] one thing that that is made me sense out the most is [07:27] I see product people on the IC level. [07:31] have to [07:32] go through some of the struggles on their own. [07:35] even if our product community has some best practices to it. [07:40] Because as the line manager has no clue about the product community out there in the craft of product management, [07:46] they often struggle to point them in the right direction to say like, hey, I think that's a problem somebody else already had. So maybe you could watch a talk or read this blog post or there's a book about this particular thing and then go try it. [07:58] So that's the first thing. So product people, I see level often have them to learn a lot of things on their own, so to say, because nobody's curating their progression for them to some extent. So that is one thing.

[08:13] And then I use this metaphor of the eight legged creature because people tend to talk about T shaped employee profiles. [08:20] But T-shaped is so not enough for a product person, right? [08:23] We want them to understand underlying problems of the business and the users, finding solution for those, getting things out of the door with the team, doing a lot of product discovery, looking at the data, how people are using it. [08:34] iterating on the products, [08:36] So there's so many things that we want them to be good at and to understand that and the complexity that the role actually [08:43] brings with it, [08:45] That's sometimes hard for people that have never worked [08:48] as a product person to really understand. So, [08:51] If I would need to pick two things, then that's maybe the two. [08:54] biggest differences. [08:56] The first one is such a great one. It comes up a lot on these chats of just how much of getting better product is just doing it. You can read. [09:03] all the books you can take all the courses you can read my newsletter you can read [09:07] your book, which we'll talk about, but there's only so far you'll get without actually just doing it and just like failing. [09:12] doing great things that succeed. And it takes years, right? It's not like something you'll do six months. [09:17] All right, I'm feeling really good about being a product manager. [09:20] Yeah, I totally agree. I so often have said the sentence of "it's not a role". [09:24] it's a career being in product and really there's so many things to learn and so many things to get good at um yeah i totally agree yeah crazy ass role [09:33] Speaking of your book, you wrote a book. It's about product leadership and coaching. And we're going to touch on some of the things you wrote in the book. But can you just briefly describe the book that you wrote, who it's for, what it's about? [09:42] It's quite a niche book, right? So it's focusing on people managing product people, so product leads, and then the people development part of their job.

[09:51] So it's not another book talking about how to come up with a great product strategy. There definitely is a chapter on that to some extent, but it's more [09:59] how you coach those things. [10:02] So it's not so much about how you do these things on your own, it's more [10:06] how you could help product people [10:08] to understand hypothesis-driven product discovery a bit more? How could you help them think about team motivation? Or how could you help them get better in giving feedback? [10:19] all these kind of things so this book has this meta [10:21] level of [10:23] Helping. [10:25] product needs to develop their product folks, [10:28] And that is actually what the book talks about in five different parts. And I think 28 chapters, if I get it right. [10:35] Wow, that's a lot of chapters. What is it called? Where can people find it just while we're on this topic? And then we'll get into some of this. It should be available on Amazon and it's Strong Product People, a complete guide to developing great product managers. [10:48] That's actually the title and the subtitle, so to say. [10:51] Awesome. Strong product people. Okay. [10:53] I read parts of the book. I looked at a lot of the stuff that you write online and some of your videos. [10:59] And there's three things that I want to spend our time together on to dig into. [11:03] One is what you just talked about. [11:05] how to become better coach to product managers for [11:08] PMs. [11:09] Two is storytelling skills. You have a lot of great stuff on just like becoming a better storyteller. [11:13] And then three is how to find great community to become a better PM. Does that sound good? [11:17] Yeah, that sounds amazing. Let's do that. Okay, great. Awesome. So the first topic, basically, the premise of your book is just how to become a better coach to product managers.

[11:27] And for me, actually, personally, the biggest inflection in my career, [11:31] was having an awesome manager who helped me become a better PM. And that just was the point in my career where I really accelerated it. [11:38] And so I fully buy into [11:40] the power of having a great manager and a coach. And oftentimes those aren't the same people. [11:44] And you have kind of these five ingredients. [11:47] that you have to be the best coach to product managers. And so just to start, what are these five ingredients? What do you have to get right to be a great coach to PMs? [11:57] Yeah, glad you're asking. [11:58] So, [11:59] I was already referencing to number one and number one is really [12:04] having... [12:06] a solid definition of what a good product person looks like in your context. [12:11] So what is your definition of good, so to say? [12:15] And a lot of the product leads that I'm working with have this as an [12:19] implicit feeling-based, experience-based thing. [12:24] they can talk about [12:26] some of the aspects, but it's often the case that they're not fully reflected on [12:31] What are personality traits that I want to see in product people? [12:35] that are hard to develop while I'm coaching them, and what are skills and know-how and capabilities [12:42] that I want to see in the product people that I'm working with. And some are super good and have it all written down. But most of the product folks that I'm working with, [12:51] haven't. So that is step number one is [12:53] doing this reflection. Then step number two is, [12:56] having a clear idea where every PM currently

[13:00] is in their current career, in their situation, life in general, all these kind of things. [13:06] So put the pin on the map, so to say, and then think about [13:10] What is your vision for them in the future? So how good could it get? [13:14] And I usually encourage product leaders to think bigger than their current role and the current company because that's the longer term thing. [13:22] And then even more important is what I call the next bigger challenge. [13:27] So what is the next bigger challenge I would love to assign this product person to if I could? [13:33] Because I know that would help them to learn a new skill or to gain new know-how, whatever it is, right? [13:40] and [13:41] Creating such a list once a quarter, for example, you block yourself an hour in your calendar, you write down the names of your direct reports, and then you just think about, okay, [13:50] What would be this next bigger challenge for them? [13:53] It's not always the case that this comes around the corner the next day. Sometimes it takes a quarter, two or three. But if you wrote it down, you will see. [14:02] this [14:03] opportunity and then you could assign this person to the opportunity and really help them grow substantially over time so that's number two [14:10] then hopefully you share this vision you're having for them with them. [14:15] And [14:16] do a bit of an alignment session because it's not always that they have the same things in mind. [14:21] Maybe your vision for them opens up. [14:24] their thinking and reflection a little bit more. But you have to have this conversation where you actually see them. And that's a lot of encouragement and bringing out the best.

[14:33] in them and these kind of things. [14:36] Then it's definitely a development plan. [14:38] But I think that's more on them than it is on you, because you don't get the apps from other people's branches. So you cannot really help them develop. [14:47] But you could remind them of going to the gym, for example, which would be step number five, by the way, that's the follow up. But the development plan is something where a lot of product managers need help with because that's the inspirational part, that's the curational part, that's where you could help them to really [15:03] see some of the differences between your definition of good and their current profile. [15:09] And maybe they need to get better in prioritization. Maybe user interviewing is something they want to get better at. [15:14] And then you could help them defining steps [15:17] that they could take small things that they could learn. Maybe it's a book. Maybe it's giving a presentation at a conference. [15:23] Maybe it's reflecting on your way of prioritizing and then look at what others are doing. [15:28] So whatever it is, that is something you could help them with. And then finally, [15:31] It's the follow-up. [15:33] that sometimes just [15:34] a nudge every once in a while at the water cooler to say like, "Hey, how is it going with your personal development plan?" And some really need the weekly reminder, and some maybe need even a daily email, whatever it is. Ask them. [15:46] how they want to be [15:47] reminded of their personal development and how you could help them [15:50] and the system while doing that because they still have a day job, right? So personal development will never be the number one priority. [15:57] and it shouldn't. Awesome. So just to summarize really quick, I have the list here in front of me. [16:01] One is have a clear sense of just what it takes to be as competent PM in your role. Two is an idea of where that PM is today and one thing they could do to improve.

[16:10] Three is a shared vision of how they'll take that next step. [16:14] Four is having a development plan of how they can move towards this vision. [16:18] And then the last piece is a commitment, just following up with them and making sure they're staying on top of this. Exactly. What's interesting about this, just looking at this, is it feels a lot like a roadmap and a strategy and a vision for a product. The definition where we are today is like the problem. [16:31] idea where you want to go next is kind of like strategy. [16:34] And then there's a vision where you're going to go together, and then you check in. So it's kind of these like stand-ups. Do you think of it that way at all, or is that just [16:41] something I'm noticing. I think about it that way as well, even to an extent, [16:45] Because so many companies are [16:47] are lacking the real strategy bit, right? [16:50] And it's similar with the people development strategy. That is something that I see not being present in so many environments as well. So even that similarity [16:58] is a given, I'd say, yeah. Which of these do you find is the most lacking usually or slash where do you think the biggest, like if someone were to just like, I want to be a better manager, [17:08] Where would you suggest they start? It's like right at the top, figure out what a great PM at this company is. [17:13] Ah. [17:14] That is a great question. No, I usually advise people to start with the development plan. [17:20] Because even if you have never done the assessment and even if you don't have your compass, your definition of what makes a good product manager, [17:29] you usually have an idea or they have an idea of what they want to learn next or where they want to get better at. So as I said, they say something like, [17:39] my storytelling capabilities are maybe not as good as they could be. Or prioritization is people are constantly complaining behind my back that they don't get the order of the things in my backlog or whatever it is. Or I think my opportunity solution trees suck or whatever it is.

[17:54] And you could use that and start helping them creating this development plan. [17:59] That's not a structured assessment, but that's a perfect start. [18:03] And it's obviously the follow up that makes a big difference. And that just takes so little time from the product lead, the small nudges. That's super easy. And these development plans I usually tell people to create [18:15] a new one with a new headline or topic, [18:18] once a quarter or every four months. [18:21] So that is not a massive time invest as well. So that would be my suggestion for... [18:27] Where to start, if that helps. Yeah, I love that advice because I can imagine a lot of people get stuck in that first one of like, I don't know all of the things that I need to know about what a great PM right now is. [18:36] So that's a nice, simple way to start. [18:38] And there is another aspect to it, a lot of [18:41] Product leads try to create their compass and while they do so, they think about, maybe I should have an aligned version with my peers, so the other product leads in the company. [18:52] And then we're talking about [18:53] the career levels and all these kind of things and [18:56] often takes ages until something is coming back from HR or you have a unified version. So that is something where I usually say like, no, we start with your [19:06] own personal team because the folks in your team usually just have you as a line manager. So grade your compass and encourage your peers to grade their compass and a bit down the line. It might make sense to harmonize some of that. [19:18] But, [19:19] It's better to start working. [19:21] helping your product folks and giving them some orientation than being totally paralyzed by the fact that it's not a compass that is used in the whole company.

[19:31] I want to talk about this compass and how to figure out what [19:33] a competent PM is and I know you have a framework around this [19:36] And I have some stuff I'll actually share, too. [19:38] But on this latter piece of checking in the development plan, [19:41] I wrote about this once, but I'll share it here briefly. [19:44] Something that I did with my PMs that was so effective. [19:47] was every time we did a performance review, every six months we had a performance review. [19:51] We put together a Google Doc with all of the things that we agree they should be working on. And we pick like, say, [19:59] five themes or three themes. And then we pick very concrete things they should do over the next six months that will help them develop these things. And then more importantly, to your last point is we did a monthly coaching session. [20:11] where we looked at the status of each of these things. So there's like a color code. [20:15] for each of these 10 things that we all agreed we should be, you should be doing these things over the next six months. So we checked in how they're going so that the next performance review, [20:21] It's not like, oh, I forgot all these things. It's all like, oh yeah, we're marketing this. [20:26] Yeah, exactly. And it's really all of us know consistency beats intensity. [20:32] So really the smaller time investments on a weekly basis and that applies for [20:37] the PM's time investment to learning new things and it applies to the product leads investment and helping their people to grow. [20:44] I think for both parties, it's more likely and more pleasant if you have small junks of people development in your calendar. And that's why I like your story, right? Because you were focusing on regular check-ins more than into the Big Bang 360 degree reviews. And it builds on your point of the development plan is something that...

[21:03] person develops like here's what I believe I should be working on [21:07] And it's not like you inform it a bit and give them feedback and like, maybe this isn't [21:11] Or maybe you should work on this other thing. But yeah, the fact that they own it, I think, is really powerful. Yeah. [21:15] Going back to knowing what is a competent PM at a company, something I want to, I'll make sure to include in the show notes for this is I actually did all this research on the career. [21:25] ladders at all of the biggest tech companies. [21:28] And like, so I have the spreadsheet that's public of just like, [21:31] the skills that every company evaluates through PMs by. [21:35] But most companies don't have these or they're like not great. [21:38] So say your company doesn't have like a career ladder competency framework leveling thing. [21:44] What do you suggest folks do to help figure out what is a competent PM here at our company? [21:50] I'd say use one of the assessments that are already out there. Maybe we can include this as well. I wrote a blog post where I put all the ones that I'm aware of into. [22:01] So there's the PM Daisy and obviously Marty Kagan has an assessment and I created a framework called the PM Wheel and a few others in there. Go find one that is close to what you actually think a good PM should look like. [22:17] and then customize it. [22:18] Don't use it just by copy paste because [22:21] Sometimes you have just rather technical VMs in your organization, and then all these assessment points about user interviews and discovery are maybe not dead. [22:31] applicable in your situation, right?

[22:34] US. [22:34] one template that is close to what you want to achieve, [22:38] heavy customize it because it is really a great inspiration to see, oh, these are all the things that other people think a PM should be doing. Or maybe you could merge one or two of those and tailor it to your needs. So that would be my [22:50] first suggestion, plus [22:53] reflecting on the personality traits because I think there are some things [22:58] that you better hire for and that are super hard to develop in a corporate [23:03] environment. So for me that for example is curiosity. I think [23:07] product people need to be [23:09] curious about the world, how it works, about things. [23:12] no matter the topic, the best product people that I know, whatever the topic is, they're interested and tell me more about it. So that is, for example, something I would always check when hiring product people, because I know it's hard to build that muscle or empathy. [23:27] Definitely something. [23:29] that I want to hire for. [23:31] I know that I can help them develop this muscle a bit more and stepping in the shoes of users and stakeholders and colleagues easier. [23:39] But still, if there is [23:42] yeah, not a decent level of empathy built into this person, then it's nearly impossible for me as a product lead to help them get to this decent level. So that's another important thing. Think about personality traits. [23:54] and think about skills and know-how. [23:57] and to think about skills and know how [23:59] use some of the already established assessments. [24:03] So we'll try to link to as many of those that you mentioned in the show notes.

[24:06] I'm [24:07] maybe talk about the PM wheel, which is the framework that you [24:10] suggest for folks to understand just like what are all the skills that a PM needs to have? It's hard to talk about that really briefly. So [24:18] I split all the things that PMs usually do in eight... [24:21] buckets so to say and it starts with are they are able to understand the underlying problems that users and the company actually is having are they good in finding solutions to those problems then it's they're getting they do some planning parts are they able to maybe come up with a roadmap or with good goals that are help aligning the team these kind of things and it's get it done that's already able to actually deliver the thing to work with the team [24:48] That's maybe writing backlog items and all these kind of things. [24:51] Then it's listen and learn. So are they able to really gather a lot of data these days and then look into what customers are actually saying? So the qualitative and quantitative aftermath of stuff going live. [25:04] and are they able to iterate on the solutions that they shipped? [25:07] And then it's another three buckets that are a bit out of the PM process, which is team. [25:12] So do they know about how teams actually are different from working with individuals? Do they think, [25:18] they have to motivate a team. Can you motivate a team? So this whole teamwork part and it's personal growth. I put it on my PM wheel because I want that to be part of every conversation that I have with my PM. So that's why it's on. [25:33] on the wheel and then last but not least it's agile

[25:36] Because when I was still coaching PMs, I often found [25:41] that they never... [25:42] reflected on the underlying basics of Agile ways of working. So they often have never heard about the Agile Manifesto or Agile Values or Agile Principles, no matter what framework they're using. But I think that is key. So that's bucket number eight. [25:57] And every of those buckets comes with [25:59] at least 15 framing questions. [26:02] So is this person good at doing this? Is this person good at doing that? [26:06] and it hopefully gives you a really nice and well-rounded picture [26:10] of where this person currently is and I [26:13] usually advise people to do a self-assessment, [26:16] then ask their line management for an assessment, [26:19] and ideally some of your team members. [26:21] because they have a different perspective on you as a product management personality as well. [26:26] So folks want to see that, maybe they Google PM Wheel Petra. [26:31] And we'll also link to it. [26:33] How did you develop this? I managed it and came from... [26:35] talking to a lot of PMs and just like, here's the things that I see again and again PMs need to be good at to be successful. Yeah, it was actually, that would have been pretty cool. It was more the personal need of me starting off as a product coach. [26:49] And I had this... [26:51] Yeah, the sense of I need this compass. [26:54] Because how should you start a coaching conversation? [26:57] I first have to learn about [26:59] what is their perception about them and their capabilities and their know-how, and then I can help them work on some of the things they want to work on.

[27:07] But it is often that coaches come totally unprepared to the coaching, especially when the company is actually [27:13] paying it for them and [27:15] to some extent forcing them into the coaching and then they're just like okay they told me to show up pedra what should we do in these sessions [27:23] And then that's why I created the PM Wheel to have this first conversations about, [27:28] where they think we should invest more time in our coaching session. So that's how I created it. [27:35] Cool. [27:36] Coming back, [27:37] to just the bigger... [27:39] question we've been talking about just like how to become a better manager, a coach to your product managers. [27:45] It's interesting how simple it is. The way you frame this in your writing is it's like five ingredients to be the best coach your PMs have ever had. [27:53] And if you look at this list of things to do, it's very straightforward. [27:57] and not a lot of work. [27:58] Figure out what it... [27:59] what they need to do to be successful, where are they now, [28:02] align on what [28:03] on that with them and then just give them some things to focus on. [28:07] to move closer to where they need to be like, [28:09] That doesn't take a lot of time. [28:10] Yeah, I totally agree. The book talks about some more aspects actually. So, [28:15] That's more or less the first two parts of the book. [28:19] And then there is more on onboarding and hiring great product people. There is a lot more. So that's actually the biggest part about how to coach [28:28] certain concepts of [28:31] today's product management industry, so to say, hypothesis driven product development, for example, how do you explain these concepts to people that are not yet

[28:42] familiar with these things. [28:45] And really, it helps product leads to reflect, OK, what are the small things that I could help them to get better at certain things? Because that's actually where a lot of the magic happens. [28:55] We're [28:56] tend to read all the books and we tend to know all our thought leaders and all these kind of things. But our product people often need super practical advice. [29:05] So maybe it's really something like explaining them the Eisenhower matrix for getting better at time management because they never heard about anything. [29:13] that could help them prioritize their tasks. Because that's the reality that we find in a lot of the companies, right? [29:19] So the big part of the book is really this, how do you really help them? [29:24] understand this small, [29:27] tasks and things that the daily work requires them to do. [29:31] I think a lot of that I find is like, [29:33] When you need something... [29:35] That's the time to... [29:37] find it and introduce it and read about it. There's like so much content. Yeah. Like I'm, I'm guilty of this. Just, there's a lot of stuff to read and listen to. [29:44] How's it be? [29:45] And like, I find you don't need to be listening to and reading everything all the time. It's, [29:50] Just like I need to figure out how to prioritize. Let's see what's out there. That's awesome. [29:54] and maybe save it for the future. But like there's so much stress, I think, that goes into like, oh, my God, I got to read everything all the time. Yeah, I totally agree. Just I think two weeks ago, one of my coaches told me that he stopped. [30:06] reading a lot of books and consuming a lot of content and he [30:10] Instead, [30:11] dedicates the whole year.

[30:13] to using one methodology or a book. [30:16] So in that case, the picture says continuous discovery habits and [30:20] that's what they read over and over again for the whole year and i think there's a [30:25] It's an interesting... [30:27] It's an interesting way of looking at things. [30:30] That is interesting. That's like a very committed... [30:33] Better pick the right book there. Yeah, that is true. [30:37] Yeah, but maybe some of your colleagues pick another book and then you can just share what you learned and what works better and a bit of a community thing. [30:44] Oh, we're going to get to that. I like that. [30:46] Before we get to the storytelling topic, is there anything else you want to share along the lines of, if folks are just like, I want to become a better coach? [30:54] to my PMs. Any [30:55] Other thoughts you want to close with? Yeah, one... [31:00] one easy [31:01] The tip is... [31:04] Get yourself a list of great questions that you could ask in one-on-ones if you don't have the time to prepare. [31:11] and that will be one of my tips as well there's several great coaching books out there some of some of the some of the questions are in my book as well [31:20] Yeah, just find some coaching questions, make a small compilation. [31:24] and then really see what resonates with your team. And that often is a bit of a health check. So how are you doing? What would make you more successful in the role that you're currently having? All these kind of things could be helpful. [31:38] Do you have any other examples of those? That's actually useful. Just a few more examples of coaching questions.

[31:44] It really depends on what I find super... [31:46] helpful is a list of emotions because people tend [31:52] to find it really hard to talk about how they currently really are. [31:56] And I don't know why this is the case. Maybe it's stressed. Maybe it's not feeling comfortable to talk about this. [32:02] with your line manager, which is another topic and bringing us back to the topic of company culture. [32:08] But it, for example, is something that I always have handy. And if I have [32:11] this notion of, okay, this person maybe really needs a hug to some extent. [32:16] Then this conversation about, hey, look, there is this list of [32:19] 30 emotions. [32:21] Where do you think you're currently at and why and could I help you with that? So that could be something. [32:27] And then there, I think you talked to Matt Mokhiari the other day, right? Yeah, that episode just came out. Yeah, exactly. And he has a great framework as well. [32:37] I would need to look the questions up, but maybe we put them in the show notes as well. That's a bit of a health check as well. And you, first of all, it's five easy assessment questions for you, for your folks. And then it's more of [32:49] okay if you're ranking yourself a sixth [32:52] How could I help you to make it a 7? [32:54] So it really focuses on incremental improvements, not crazy stressing everybody out improvements, not what could I do to make it a 10. [33:05] It's more really, how could I improve your situation? [33:08] really build rapport, really be there for your product folks. And I think, [33:12] creating this list of coaching questions as a go-to list,

[33:15] could improve the quality of your one-on-ones because let's face it, we often run into those ones. Either we ditch them or we run into those ones completely unprepared. [33:25] And an assessment could help, a development plan could help, and a prepared list of coaching questions could help to make that [33:32] way easier and [33:34] for your PMs to feel more valued. [33:37] That's a great callback to the Matt. And by the way, his name is pronounced Matt Mashari. [33:42] instead of Machari. The CH is like a shh. Ah, see? Now we know. I've learned something. Now we know. That's good. Yeah. And you pointed out in his curriculum, he has a bunch of questions that you mentioned about like how, where you went to 10 on this thing and then how do we get you to eight or nine. So we'll link to that in the show notes also. So many more things to read. So many things to link. Sorry. Good God. Poor listeners. This episode is brought to you by Assembly AI. If you're looking [34:12] in your audio or video products, then you need to know about Assembly AI. Assembly AI is the API platform for state-of-the-art AI models that thousands of product-led growth companies like Spotify, Loom, and CallRail are using to infuse AI into their products. With simple APIs, developers and PMs can get access to powerful AI models for transcription, summarization, and dozens of other tasks that are fast, secure, and production-ready. All of their models are researched and trained in-house [34:42] continuously updated by their team of AI experts. [34:44] which, for PM, makes it easy to build and ship new AI-powered features. Product teams at the startups and enterprises are using Assembly AI to automatically transcribe and summarize phone calls and virtual meetings,

[34:57] detect topics and podcasts pinpoint when sensitive content is spoken redact pii from audio videos and way more visit assemblyai.com to try assemblyai's api for free and start testing their models in their no-code playground that's assemblyai.com well let's get to a happier simpler topic maybe [35:21] Maybe not. [35:22] Storytelling. [35:24] So just like setting context, it feels like as a PM, also as a founder, also as just a leader of any kind, [35:30] You're always told... [35:31] You need to be a great storyteller. [35:33] That's a big part of leadership. Be a great storyteller because that gets people excited and on board with your [35:38] Building. [35:39] But it feels like I've heard so many things about becoming a better storyteller. [35:44] It's always like, [35:45] It feels great when you're reading it and then you get to like a deck you're starting or a [35:50] meeting you're about to run or a doc and [35:53] How do I make this a good story? I need some kind of [35:56] conflict maybe and a character, I don't know, there's a hero's journey. There's all these things, you're like, I don't know, I don't know what I'm doing. So I guess just a broad question. So your PM who wants to get better at storytelling, [36:08] Do you have any... [36:10] things you would suggest that are just like concrete things someone could do. [36:13] today, tomorrow, this week to become a better storyteller, to level up their storytelling skills? Yes, I think I would. [36:19] Love to mention two things. [36:21] So first of all, [36:23] People that are starting off and they're getting a better storytelling journey.

[36:28] often totally underestimate how many times actually great storytellers are investing in creating the stories. [36:35] and making sure they can share the story in nice ways and formats. [36:39] So that's maybe the first tip you have to plan. [36:42] to put in a lot of work [36:44] to create your story. And when you say a lot of work, what are you thinking? What's an order of magnitude of time? [36:51] depending on the scale of the story or deck or rule of thumb so i think if you [36:57] Let's say you want to explain the rest of the company what you're [37:01] you and the team are up for the next three to four months, so to say. [37:06] And then I think that's two weeks of work, not eight hours a day, obviously, but two weeks of work, maybe one or two hours a day to really carve that story and think about different audiences. [37:18] and different framings of when am I able to tell the story, [37:23] And that is actually, I think, a rule of thumb of time investment. So it takes time. [37:27] Because people often think like, [37:30] I don't know, you just get better overnight in telling great stories. It's just not how it works. So you have to practice and you have to put in a lot of work and time to come up with a logical, compelling, motivating story. [37:43] that then lasts for longer than a week or two. [37:47] So that's a lot of work. And then [37:49] The other tip would be [37:51] really make sure that you're using [37:53] Language. [37:55] that speaks to the heart and the minds of the people.

[37:59] because we constantly tend to use too much of our business lingo. And it's like banner blindness. Some of the words that we use, people [38:07] totally overhearing them. [38:09] because we're using them so often. And there could be even things like product discovery. So maybe your company is already so fed up with all your product discovery stuff, [38:19] that you should start using different terms, even if then, say, hypothesis-driven product management, [38:26] It's more or less the same thing. [38:28] And maybe it's even too complex. Maybe you can find something simpler and say like, [38:33] We need to learn something about this particular thing. [38:36] Um, [38:37] Because studies show, and that's the scientific background, [38:42] stories really have an impact on our brain. So hormones get released depending on how the story is actually formed, if they're cliffhangers or if it's [38:53] really like, well, you're superb with the hero and think, where is it going to take him or something like that? [38:59] And that releases... [39:02] yeah hormones in your brain and that only happens if you're using natural worlds so to say so you could [39:09] talk about smell and sense and how people feel and how their life would be better if this product would be out. [39:16] all these kind of things so really make sure that you think about they really speak to their minds and to their hearts. [39:22] And, [39:23] remove all your three letter abbreviations and all these kind of things. [39:27] which is something that everybody says as well.

[39:31] But it is way harder to do it when you really start to create your story to remove all these terms. And that takes a lot of time. [39:38] And, um, [39:40] Yeah, as well. So you have to really put an effort into [39:43] did the [39:44] Don't use too much blood to paint or. [39:47] So the first point, which I love, is you think people are just good at this and naturally great. [39:52] at telling a great story, but a lot of it is, right? Like some people are like, you do it enough and you like, it'll be quicker probably. [39:57] But for most people, it's going to be like, just put in the time and it gets better and better and your story. [40:02] Yeah. And it's a cultural thing. [40:06] So I really find [40:08] in average, Americans, for example, being better at it than most of us Europeans, [40:14] And I think that's, [40:15] Because even in your school system, it seems to me, I don't know, you tell me if that is the case, but storytelling and being in front of a class or something like this is something that is encouraged and valued already, where in... [40:30] At least when I was at school, this was not part of the whole system at all. [40:36] So, um, [40:37] really late. [40:38] it was part of what we did, but not from an early age. So it's just not something [40:43] yeah, that we trained in or that we used to. So sometimes even speaking in front of 30 people, [40:50] people are freaking out because they never did that. So that's their cultural differences to that definitely as well. Speaking of the idea of speaking in public and being nervous and that kind of thing, which I always get really nervous speaking in public and people don't think that when they hear me and other folks that are publicly speaking, but it's like freaks me out every time.

[41:10] Do you have any advice for people that want to [41:14] become better public speakers slash be less nervous speaking. [41:18] Publicly? [41:19] I was really bad in the game for big tickets. Well, [41:23] I have to tell you. [41:24] And it's still not something that I love, but I know it's part of the work that we do. [41:30] Thank you. [41:31] And so the easiest way is to get [41:34] in front of really small and super friendly audiences. [41:38] So that is, I think, the first starting point. And I don't know where that is. That could be your team. That's a super small audience, usually five to ten people. [41:47] Or maybe you'll pine with your [41:50] company of 80 people or 120 people, maybe the company all hands is already something where you could actually speak. [41:57] That was my first... [42:00] time and I had to speak in front of the whole company at a company all hands around 90 people back at the time. [42:06] And I only had to give a brief update on what we did the last two weeks. And it was like five minutes on stage. But it freaked me out. So that's where I'm coming from. And it really helped me to sort small. Then product tanks, for example, this local product community meetups. [42:23] I totally helped me because friendly human beings. [42:26] and not too many of them. So sometimes they're just 30 people attending and then you in the summer, not so many people are coming. So why not giving a talk there? So really start small. [42:37] and then grow the audience over time.

[42:40] And always make sure, because that helped me a lot, [42:44] to get feedback from strangers, [42:47] End. [42:48] Peers. [42:49] if possible because the peers tend to give you the harsher critique so to say [42:55] where the strangers are more polite. [42:58] but they're not so familiar with the work you do or with the story that you want to tell. So they can spot [43:03] some gaps in your storytelling technique or something like that. So, [43:07] That is something that helped me a lot to always have this friendly soul in the front row where I know I get some feedback from later on. [43:14] plus then having complete strangers. And there's always somebody coming up after the talk, right? So that could be your first person giving you some stranger feedback, so to say. [43:25] What about if you're just about to give a talk and you're like, "Oh my God, I'm so nervous." [43:29] Do you find anything that helps you? [43:32] Get over that. [43:33] I think the two things that work well [43:36] It's either the Superman pose. So that is one thing. If you're standing like this, looking straightly up, [43:42] That is one thing that helps many people. It's not my preferred one. [43:48] And then the other one is a bit of the gorilla thing. [43:51] Just like tapping here, there is a, I don't know what's the English. Vegas. No, it's not the Vegas nerve. Oh, different. I think it's timers. I need to look it up. [44:00] And if you just like... [44:02] Yeah. [44:03] Hit that softly. [44:05] for some time, then that bumps your energy level, so to say. [44:10] So that helps me. And again, Friendly Faces Front Row. So find people,

[44:16] that you like and respect and that you know that have the spark in their eyes when you start talking. [44:23] That definitely helps as well. [44:24] Do you suggest doing these moves in the bathroom where no one can see you or... [44:28] Yes, backstage. You're doing those ones backstage. And think about what you're wearing, because if you're wearing something like that and do this before you enter the stage. [44:38] People might see that. They might love that. Just come out beating your chest. [44:42] it's a power move yep [44:45] Do you think it's important for... [44:46] PMs and leaders in general to get great at public speaking? Or do you think it's okay if they are just okay? [44:53] It really depends. So I think not being able... [44:58] To speak publicly, [45:00] and to bring your point across, [45:02] because a lot of people do public speaking, but they never bring their point across. [45:06] So if you want to achieve both things, [45:10] I think it is... [45:12] a career installer if you can't for a product person. You can do the IC level product management job, [45:18] but getting promoted is way harder if you're not good in [45:23] telling stories and rallying the team behind the shared goal and all these kind of things. And you usually achieve this [45:30] through good storytelling techniques. And in some teams, I seen the product person not being really, really good at it, but then the whole team helped creating the stories and stuff like this. So you definitely could compensate. [45:42] to some extent, but I would consider it a bit of a career scholar if you don't get to a decent level of storytelling and to a decent level of public speaking.

[45:51] So I think it's important. [45:54] Who's the best storyteller PM that you've met and what made them great? [45:58] Ooh, that's another hard question. [46:00] So who had the biggest influence on me? [46:05] was definitely Jason Goldberg. He was my former boss and he was the first person [46:11] Dead. [46:12] came into the startup that I was working for back at the time. And he was really the first person who entered every stage that he could find. [46:20] to talk about the things that he wants to achieve with us as a product team and as a product organization. In a way, it was really motivational. [46:29] So it really helped me to experience that and how he was using this product evangelizing techniques to [46:37] Yeah, to actually really tell the whole company what we are up for currently and what the problems out there he thinks are worth solving. [46:45] So that was definitely an inspiration. And then I think another [46:49] Great speaker is definitely Hans Rosling. He's no longer with us. That's sad. [46:54] But he gave great TED Talks, really data heavy TED Talks, because I often hear from product people, yeah, but [47:01] The work we do that's so boring, how could we make a great story out of that? [47:06] And I think Hans Rosling showed over and over again that you can. [47:11] So that definitely is an inspiration. [47:13] And then on a totally different note, I love spoken word poetry. [47:18] because that really talks to the heart and minds of people.

[47:22] And I use in my coaching, I usually send people off to the TED talk from Sarah Kaye. [47:29] which has the nice title, "If I should have a daughter, [47:33] And that really helps people to understand like, ah, okay, that's how you could be playful with words. [47:39] And that's what happens to me personally and to my body and to my [47:43] emotions if I listen to something like that. [47:46] So that's maybe three things I could be mentioning. Hans Rosling, the guy with the like world. [47:52] poverty charts and exactly our world in data now his son is i think in charge but [48:00] Yeah. Cool. [48:01] I'm excited. I'm going to watch that one again. That's a good reminder. Maybe just another question around storytelling. Say you're a PM and you're about to start a document or a deck. [48:09] and you just want it [48:10] to be a good story. [48:12] What are two or three things you should just do? [48:15] to set yourself up for success. [48:17] Yeah, first of all, it's [48:19] Don't sit in front of the blank page for too long to start. [48:22] drafting something. I think there's a lot of beauty in [48:26] the [48:27] story as a design tool, so to say, because it's even easier to change a story than it is to change a prototype. [48:34] So even before you put something in writing, [48:37] you could start talking about it and see how it lands and then tweak it and i think that's the first thing get going and then the other thing is go start talking about your story go test it see how it resonates and then tweak it and maybe you could use one of the proven story structures find the one that helps you most i

[48:57] really even if it's super boring, but I use this hero's journey a lot where I think about should I put the team? [49:04] in the heart of the story because if it's a story that i [49:07] that should help me to motivate the team or to inspire the team to actions or something like that, then maybe it's nice if I put them in the center of the story and make them the heroes and talk about the demons and monsters they have to fight. [49:22] to once arrive at this brighter future. And maybe some other times it makes sense to put the user there and really talk about how their world and lives would have improved once this product is out and available. Maybe it's even a feature that we're talking about or a bigger redesign or whatever you're currently working on, right? [49:42] But you could use this proven, sorry, [49:44] structure and see what are the things in there. So the call to adventure, what is the call to adventure? What is this bright future? And it helps you to start and to get going. [49:55] And I usually advise people to have the story handy in various formats. [50:01] so spoken that they could actually talk about it. [50:04] written because we all tend to work in remote or asynchronous environments. [50:09] just a recorded video maybe yeah it's good [50:12] but maybe a written version of it is nice as well. [50:16] And the next one is an illustration. [50:19] that helps you [50:21] making some of the core points of your story visible to the audience. And it could be a whiteboard drawing, a flip chart drawing. It could be a bigger maybe it's five slides with

[50:31] emotional pictures on it or whatever it is. [50:34] But [50:35] Be visual with your story as well and then [50:38] you should have it ready in three different formats. In the super short 75 second elevator pitch version, [50:46] in six minutes I can do this before we actually start sprint planning version. [50:52] And ideally, I have to go to the company all hands and have to talk about what we will [50:57] look into for the next four months. And that's maybe an 80 minutes version. And 80 minutes is the length of an average TED talk. [51:05] And there is a reason for that. [51:07] It has to do with attention spans and all these kind of things. So that's why I advise people to use this three length. An example you're using there is like, [51:16] a PM designing the vision for their team potentially, or their strategy for the next, say, six months. Yeah, exactly. So we don't need [51:24] to create this complicated story. [51:27] for the next friend, I'd say. That's too much of an effort, maybe a waste of time. You need to look a bit further out to make it worth spending a lot of time on creating your story. [51:38] If you had to pick one book or resource that helped you become a [51:42] a better storyteller or that you found other people coming back to that helps them level up their storytelling skills? What comes to mind? I'll share one first as you think about that. There's a recent book that you wouldn't think would be good at [51:53] this, but it really is really good at [51:56] helping you understand how to tell a story. And it's called Nobody Wants to Read Your Shit. And it's by...

[52:02] Yeah, and the title alone is a great lesson, which is nobody wants to read your stuff, just [52:08] Yeah, but the premise of the book is how to make it so that people find it interesting and useful. It's by Stephen Pressfield, who wrote The One. [52:16] War of Art. [52:17] and Bagger Vance and all these things. So it's one of his newer books, I think. [52:20] So that's what comes to mind. That's pretty cool. What comes to mind. Back in the day when Marty Kagan was my product coach, he made me read Selling the Dream, which is the Macintosh story on product evangelizing by Gabe Kawasaki. [52:34] And that's not it didn't help me to become a better storytelling, but it helped me realize that is really important that I work on that skill. [52:42] So that is actually the trigger. And material that helped me is basically everything from Nancy Duarte and Duarte Inc. [52:51] So there are even leadership books about rituals and how to ignite [52:56] the spark in all the people you're having. So they're talking a lot about the leadership aspect of storytelling, but they have something for the IC level. [53:04] as well. 72 rules on storytelling and all these kind of things. And I have a lot of free material. I know it's not a book, but they have several books. And that was great material that helped me to become better. Man, the show notes on this episode are going to be out of control. It's going to hit some limit. Yeah, maybe we're the longest show notes ever. Sorry. [53:23] Oh my God. Yeah. It's going to be rough. I'm actually going to try to get Nancy Duarte on this podcast. Oh, yeah. That's a good message. Say hi if you do. I'm a fan. Hey, I'll do that. I'll do that.

[53:35] Okay, so getting to our final topic, which is around community. [53:40] You're a big fan of [53:42] finding community and just the power of being in a community. And I know you've done a bunch of research there. You're just like pumping your fists as we talk about this. I love it. So tell us why you're such a big fan of the power of community for product managers in general. Oh, again, the starting point was a rather ego centric starting point. [54:00] Because I'm constantly thinking about how could I scale the work that I do? [54:05] Because I still see so many companies [54:09] not getting a product coach or I still see so many companies where people develop and it's not a priority all these kind of things and at some point I thought [54:19] If the line manager is not taking care of the personal development, who could? [54:25] And I talked to several of my colleagues about the question. And at some point somebody said like, yeah, [54:30] that's what community of practices are often used for. So that's where a lot of people get their inspiration. And basically, I reflected on my career, [54:40] And early on, I was in this super engaging product organization where we really, we tried a lot, we shared a lot. A lot of the things that we tried didn't work at all, but others really fell on fertile grounds and we could learn from each other. And we invested quite some time in this sharing. [54:58] But everyone got better over time because of this community being present. [55:03] And so I decided.

[55:06] to make this my topic for this year's research, so to say. [55:09] And I was talking to a lot of my clients and former clients, "Hey, are you running a community of practice?" [55:14] If you don't run a community of practice, why is that? [55:17] Often they have never considered running one. They don't know where to start. So that's another problem, obviously. [55:23] And at some point I decided to conduct a survey to see if random strangers can tell me about [55:30] their companies and their community of practice [55:32] And it was super interesting as well. For example, I found it. [55:35] Oftentimes there is a bit of a community of practice internally. [55:39] but they never heard about external product communities, so they never heard of [55:44] your community or Teresa's community or Mind the Product or any of those external communities, [55:52] And that is shocking to an extent as well, because we're all so friendly. [55:56] human beings happy to share what we learn and they don't have to go through the same things over and over again soon so [56:03] That's why I think it's a super important question and I would love to help a bit more companies to start. [56:09] a community of practice or to mature the community of practice that they're already having. [56:14] What kind of impact have you seen folks get when they join or find a great community and then [56:19] What are the communities that you find are most useful? You mentioned [56:23] And I want to get your advice on what I could do to make it even better. But maybe those two questions. What kind of impact do you find when you find a great community? And then what are some that you recommend? [56:31] One impact definitely is stickiness. So people tend to stay with companies where

[56:38] they're learning and growing. [56:41] and can get to mastery to say hello, Daniel Pink. [56:46] So that is really important. [56:48] something that people are thriving for and if they find this in a company and a product community of practice, [56:55] could be a big part of that. [56:58] So that is one impact. Then the other impact, there's [57:01] less people development on the desk of the product lead if there is a good product community of practice. So product leads, your life will get so much easier if there is a product community of practice. [57:13] And it's actually a pretty cheap way [57:17] off. [57:18] doing people development because trainings are expensive, conference tickets are expensive, getting an external product coach expensive. [57:25] But helping people to learn from each other by making room for that and giving them a bit of time to reflect and to share what they're learning. [57:34] That's rather cheap. [57:36] So I think that is the benefits that I see. [57:40] training budgets, [57:41] Training budget impact, people tend to stay with the company a bit longer. Leadership-wise, it's less a time that you have to invest in people development. [57:50] And it's just fun for a lot of people. That's another uptake, I'd say. [57:53] What are signs that the community that you're in, say you found, you mentioned a bunch that I think are awesome. Teresa's community. We'll talk about My Slack a little bit. [58:01] Find the product. Yes. What are signs that the community you're in is good with your time? Something you should stick with versus like, nah, get out of there.

[58:09] It is actually a good question. So I would say if it helps you with [58:13] networking, [58:15] That is really something good if you meet nice, interesting, [58:21] people so that that is one one thing i would love to mention and then [58:25] If you're learning something new every now and then, maybe not every day, maybe not every week, but every now and then there should be some real nuggets where you think like, oh, this is making my life easier. [58:36] Or this is super interesting, I would never ever have stumbled upon this thing without the community. So learning something new. [58:44] And then... [58:45] reflecting on how much you already learned about a certain topic or know about a certain topic, which is contributing to the community. You could be a community moderator, you could be somebody organizing some of the rituals, you could be somebody just sharing what you learned. [59:03] So I think that is something that could... [59:06] in a good community that is possible at least. [59:10] to share that everybody's sharing and that there's mutual trust and it's often just if you enjoy being part of this community that's i think another super important thing to look into do you like the people there do you like to hang out with them do you think they are kind lovely human beings and is [59:28] some level of activity in the community because there's too many dead ones out there more or less and i think these are the things that i [59:35] yeah would use as a benchmark. [59:37] When you're talking about this, initially I was just imagining online communities, but there's also obviously offline communities probably somewhere near your local city. Yeah, product tanks. Right, just like, yeah. Yeah.

[59:46] Yeah, so that's like, [59:47] I think I don't know if people thought that when I was talking, but yeah, there's probably like meetups happening in your city with product managers that are meeting each other. [59:54] Every week, every month, maybe. [59:55] That sounds awesome. And I love your point about the ROI of [1:00:00] the community versus a course versus reading lots of books. [1:00:04] Like it's really affordable to join some kind of product community, especially if it's online. Yes. And the ROI could be really high. [1:00:11] Yeah. And. [1:00:12] It brings so much clarity in your thinking. [1:00:15] If you're sharing some things you learned, [1:00:18] with the community. [1:00:20] that this is a massive uptake as well. So, [1:00:23] give back that really makes sense for you personally as well. [1:00:27] So you mentioned my Slack community. [1:00:30] If folks don't know this and they're listening, basically, if you're a paid subscriber to my newsletter, you get access to the Slack. And there's about 10,000 people in there, mostly PMs and founders and growth leaders. [1:00:40] And it's, [1:00:41] Pretty damn incredible. It's probably the thing that most [1:00:43] proud of all the things I've done over the last few years around this newsletter and podcast. And so, if you're not in there, you should definitely [1:00:50] check it out. It's thriving. There's meetups happening all over the world every month. There's all there's a mentorship program. [1:00:56] There's mastermind groups, all kinds of stuff. [1:00:58] and you're familiar with it. And so I just wanted to ask you while I have you here, do you have any [1:01:03] advice for how to make this community even more great. [1:01:06] That is not an easy question. First of all, congratulations. I really think it's a massive achievement to start such a community. [1:01:14] and to really have such a vibrant community.

[1:01:17] Because it's, [1:01:19] I know it takes a lot of energy investment at first to get it going and then a lot of energy to keep it on a certain level, so to say. [1:01:28] Yeah, what I found helpful is... [1:01:32] have this [1:01:33] community canvas that I use when I'm working with clients. [1:01:36] And, [1:01:36] Some of these things require workshops to some extent, [1:01:40] So, [1:01:42] It helps to reflect on what is the purpose of the community. [1:01:47] And that changes over time with the community members that are currently part of this community. Right. So that is not a stable thing. [1:01:55] So sometimes everybody has to pause for a second and then think about what is the purpose of this community. [1:02:01] What are our values? [1:02:03] And how will we define success? It's pretty boring and all because it sounds so, so familiar with what we do in product management, but I think it applies for product communities as well. [1:02:13] And then it's, [1:02:14] You need to find good rituals and rhythm, and you, Lenny, were already talking about some of the ones you are using. [1:02:21] I know, for example, what Theresa is doing, [1:02:24] in her community. I interviewed her [1:02:27] this year. So there is a blog post on that online as well, where she talks about what she tried and what did work and what did not work. [1:02:35] So I think that is important. Then, [1:02:37] maybe not so important for your community well let's see let's discuss let me hear what you think [1:02:43] which is incentives and sponsoring. [1:02:46] So how do you

[1:02:48] Yeah, value contribution. [1:02:51] Are you giving back? Is it a kudos mechanism or [1:02:54] Is it something that where people really earn badges of honor or earn time, earn more training budget? That's what a lot of companies do, right? If you're playing an active role, [1:03:05] in the community, then you get more training budget to spend or something like that. [1:03:11] or they grant you time to do so. So if you say like, hey, I want to be part of this product community. Could I travel one month, a quarter or something like that? Because I want to go and see those people. [1:03:23] That is something that people do. So incentives and sponsoring, [1:03:27] Then it's roles and that will be interesting in your case as well. [1:03:31] Is Lenny the center of the community? I try really hard not to do that. Yeah, right? I try to not be [1:03:38] the beacon of all answers. The actual goal of the community was [1:03:41] I will not have all the answers. Let's just [1:03:44] bring a bunch of smart people together that are [1:03:47] Already there's this interesting filter of who pays for content. [1:03:50] about product and growth and startup stuff. Yeah. Builder is really interesting. So the whole idea was, [1:03:55] get out of the middle of this thing and let people help each other. And it's worked out really well. [1:03:59] Yeah, because that's what I would say after doing all this research. It's not sustainable if the whole community is on the shoulders of one, two, three people. [1:04:08] So you need to distribute the workload and you need to distribute this responsibility. [1:04:13] Because sometimes even things like [1:04:16] policing the community. [1:04:18] is

[1:04:19] not a pleasant job and if there's only one person dealing with all of these things, then it's not really community because then it's a bit organized like a company in this pyramid scheme. [1:04:30] So I think more of it as circles, different circles of interest and then building bridges between them, because maybe not everybody in your community is interested in the same topics, but maybe there are the smaller circles of 10, 15 people interested in this one topic, 10, 15 people interested in this other topic. You may be connecting the dots. You may be giving a bit of impulse and inspiration, but maybe other people are doing the exact same thing, sharing their best reads and they're worthy to watch videos and all these kind of things. [1:05:00] So content and curation definitely is [1:05:03] Another thing. [1:05:04] that you should think about and reflect on once in a while. [1:05:08] Cool. Thanks for the advice. [1:05:10] Curation is so important, I found, especially early on, I found [1:05:13] Keeping the signal to noise high. [1:05:15] Always, especially early on, it was really peripheral. So there's a lot of focus on just being detail oriented about it all. [1:05:21] Yeah, plus... [1:05:22] A lot of communities that I see use engagement as a success metric. [1:05:28] And I'm actually not sure if this is a good success metric. So as you say, signal versus noise is maybe the better success metric, which leads us to the down the rabbit hole of how to affect that. But yeah, engagement is maybe not the predominant success factor for a community. [1:05:44] Yeah, that's interesting. You also said it's a lot of work. And just to give some shout outs to folks that helped me run this community that we have. I couldn't do this without him. Shrey, who leads the community. Kiani. Hello, Shrey. Hello, Shrey.

[1:05:56] And look, Janik. [1:05:57] Keani curates the best conversations in the Slack every week and then shares them in this bonus email community with them. [1:06:04] And then Rhea, who's been helping out run the meetup program. And then Jess, who's helping with our mentorship program and a few other things. [1:06:11] So that's the core team that helps this whole thing run. Thank you to them all. [1:06:15] Thank you. And it's super interesting that you're sharing that because [1:06:18] Companies often don't want to invest in [1:06:23] full-time community managers may be the wrong word because that not necessarily has to be a full-time role, but [1:06:30] There need to be some people that really have a decent amount of time to invest in running this community. [1:06:36] um because otherwise it's not working and i still think it is still cheaper than sending everybody to trainings at the conferences all the time and it has a lot of [1:06:45] Yeah, ripple effects and network effects. [1:06:48] Well, guess what? We've reached our very exciting lightning round. So I'm going to ask you a few questions. Whatever comes to mind, let me know. We'll go through it pretty fast. And are you ready? [1:06:58] I'm so ready. So ready. What are what are two or three books that you recommend most to other people? [1:07:05] The Art of Thinking Clearly by the Belly, it talks about human biases in a really nice and illustrated way. [1:07:12] than what I use a lot in my coaching practice, especially with [1:07:16] Senior executives is outcomes over output, because it's a super strong concept, I'd say. [1:07:22] And then maybe I want to mention two books that are not yet written, but two concepts that I hope will

[1:07:28] make it into books and one is Martin Erickson's Decision Stack. [1:07:32] And then there is another book about public speaking that hopefully might come out if some people are supporting it on Kickstarter. [1:07:38] And that is called Present Yourself, a public speaking book. [1:07:42] Awesome. If you can send a link to that, we'll include it also in the show notes. Of course. The record longest ever show notes. Speaking of that... [1:07:50] What's another podcast that you love? I love the product experience podcast. And if you're able to speak German, then there is one that is called Produktmenschen. [1:07:58] by Tobias Freudenreich, and that's a nice interview series. Produkt, I like that. I do not speak German, but I bet it'd be fun to listen to you anyway. [1:08:06] Thank you. [1:08:08] What's a favorite recent movie or TV show that you've enjoyed? [1:08:11] maybe new amsterdam i love that that's actually a medical director matt and he's finding very unconventional ways to solve problems and i think he's a great leader [1:08:23] So maybe that's a nice framing for watching the show. What was it called? New Amsterdam? New Amsterdam. Sweet. What's a favorite interview question you'd like to ask when you're interviewing folks? [1:08:32] Definitely the "Tell me about the last time" . [1:08:36] Um, [1:08:37] So tell me about a time when you did your last round of user interviews. Tell me about your last time when you onboarded a new colleague. [1:08:44] Because I think as a user interviewing does tell me about the last time you really [1:08:51] Yeah, sparks nice conversations and interviews. [1:08:54] what are five SaaS tools or products that help you do the work that you do now? And if there aren't enough of those, just like,

[1:09:02] great apps that you love right now. [1:09:04] I'm totally not into product management sales these days because as I'm just coaching people on hourly basis, I'm no longer the one looking into the sales sales they're using. [1:09:13] So that's a [1:09:14] Way at a tough question. [1:09:16] things that I use a lot in my personal [1:09:20] work is rather boring stuff like bookkeeping software and time tracking software. Which ones? That's interesting. [1:09:26] Harvest is what I use for time tracking and bookkeeping. And I love that. That makes my life easier since a few years already. [1:09:34] And then... [1:09:36] Yeah, new banking apps that are coming up that I'm using for my accounts. One is Quanto. [1:09:42] I think it's a German bank, but they really did a great job in the user experience. [1:09:46] super seamless in the apps and all these kind of things yeah so that's [1:09:51] Two cool products that I love to use. [1:09:54] Great. Who else in the industry do you most respect as a thought leader, influencer type person? [1:10:01] As I'm a conference organizer as well for a conference that was called the product Engage here in Hamburg. [1:10:08] That is a super hard question for me to ask because so many people have been on that stage. [1:10:14] that I would consider being a thought leader, they would maybe not consider them being a thought leader. I think the thought leader thing is, [1:10:20] pretty hard anyway so there's so many different voices in our industry and i think [1:10:25] looking at the guest list of your podcast actually is a very good start when you think about thought leaders and getting more inspirations because there are ones that we know and some hidden gems on there.

[1:10:37] Great answer. Great answer. [1:10:39] Petra, thank you so much for doing this. We've hit the record on show note length, I guess. So that's a milestone. Congrats. Yes. [1:10:48] Thank you. [1:10:49] Was a pleasure. Two final questions. Where can folks find you online if they want to learn more, reach out, maybe work with you? [1:10:55] And how can listeners be useful to you? [1:10:58] Oh, interesting. Yeah, the first one is easy. LinkedIn Petra Ville. You can find me there. And then there is my website Petra minus W I L L E dot com. [1:11:08] That's my website. [1:11:10] and how can listeners be helpful to me who that's a tough one i think it could be mutual beneficial [1:11:17] If you are a product manager, IC level, and you would love to get [1:11:23] better supported in your personal development then go buy my book and just hand it to your manager if that's appropriate or just put it on their desk and just forget that it's there and [1:11:34] Hopefully they read it or something like that. I think that is [1:11:37] how I would love to answer the last question. [1:11:39] Remind folks what the book is called, and they can find it on Amazon. Strong product people. [1:11:45] Strong product, people. Go check it out on Amazon. Exactly. Petra, thank you so much for doing this. Lenny, was a pleasure. [1:11:51] It's my pleasure.